I would very much like to see the iconics replaced with additional content. I've never used them in the past.
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That would be... Icomics.
That sounds like a great fan project to me!
Actually, a repository of all the Iconics at different levels would be a great fan project. I imagine that would be allowed by your community use policy? I could imagine a really well-made web page with all that information in an easy to use setup. There are always fans who are willing to make cool stuff like that and it wouldn't take away from any of your staff time!
Creative Director
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I would LOVE to put all of the iconics' stats online, with versions of them from 1st to 20th level...
+1. I'd love to see this some time in the future.
As for the iconic pre-gens, I'd like to see them stay in the APs. While my players haven't chosen to use them thus far, I use them as additional NPCs, so the stats are useful for me. In fact, when my players hit Magnimar, some of the iconics will be entering play as a rival party of adventurers.
It's worth pointing out that we have no plans at this point to institute Wes's idea of "Now that we aren't providing these stats, we need all of you to use a razor blade to cut the iconics OUT of any books you own and send them back to us at your expense," so if you've already got Iconics stats handy, you'll still be able to do this.
And of course.. each adventure already comes with a couple dozen stat blocks as they stand. That's well over a hundred extra stat blocks per AP.
And now that we've got the NPC Guide and the GameMastery Guide out... I'm just wondering if the need for those two pages of stats are even useful anymore.
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I support ditching the pregens and replacing them with more lovely words and art.What the Mantis Man said, but I would like to see a free download available with their stats and backstory.
+1!!!!
I'd love to see a book all about the iconics and including their backstory. I've read bits and pieces of some of them here and there, but never remember where it was when I go to tell others about it (the most common being about how Amiri got her sword). Great idea!
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How much would people be willing to pay for a PDF of pregen versions of the iconics?
Answers to that which aren't "free" are a lot more likely to motivate Paizo than "give free stuff plz".
I'd even be interested in a Campaign Setting (i.e. "Chronicles") print book with all the iconics' backgrounds, personalities, and stats at several different levels (1st, 5th, etc.).
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It's worth pointing out that we have no plans at this point to institute Wes's idea of "Now that we aren't providing these stats, we need all of you to use a razor blade to cut the iconics OUT of any books you own and send them back to us at your expense," so if you've already got Iconics stats handy, you'll still be able to do this.
So we send the clippings back in and Wes provides us with replacement content retroactively? That's a great idea, I'll get my razor blade out, I have about 40 pages of iconics to cash in for new content.
Replace the Iconics. Don't use them and don't need them. New spells, magic items, NPC's, maps, whatever...any additional comment would be a better use of 2 pages in the AP.
Yep, ditching the iconics is a good idea.
I support ditching the pregens and replacing them with more lovely words and art.What the Mantis Man said, but I would like to see a free download available with their stats and backstory.
Yep.
I'm fine with seeing the iconics' stats slip from the AP. I'd have kind of liked to have seen the secondary iconics get their shot to each rotate through an AP, but I didn't particularly expect that happen, given other factors.|
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I guess I could go one way or the other. On the one hand, if nothing else, I like the IDEA of having pregen characters in every adventure, just in case someone buys them and wants to run a one-shot or something. On the other hand, I haven't actually USED them at all yet, for that purpose or any other, and I have plenty of them by now, so I wouldn't really miss them that much.
As long as they're replaced by content that is equally or more useful and interesting, which I have no doubt of. 8^)
They were neat, but I won't miss them.
You know what would really be cool in their place?
** spoiler omitted **
;-D
** spoiler omitted **
:D
Agreed on both counts! My avatar alone tells you what I like ;-)
I'd say it's a great free net product or make it a part of the .pdf for subscribers.
Now that I've got your attention...
When we started Pathfinder several years ago, one thing that folks really really wanted us to do was to provide statistics for our various iconic characters. We've been doing that every month since the first Pathfinder module and the first Adventure Path as a result, using the last page of every module or pages 90–91 of every Pathfinder AP for that very reason.
What do folks think about us no longer doing this? Instead, the pages currently taken up by pregenerated iconics would be absorbed into the body of each book (likely adding a page or two of content to the adventure as a general rule). Stats for Merisiel and Sajan and Lini are already all over the place, and as we're gearing up for our EIGHTH adventure path, I'm starting to wonder if the usefulness of those pages has outstayed its welcome.
So... let me know! Would removing the pregenerated characters from our Adventure Paths and modules break your heart? Would replacing these pages with more precious words of adventure fill you with joy? Let us know!
I would rather put the pages to use in an adventure, than stat blocks I will never use. I don't even bother to glance at them. I don't mind them on the website so fans can see them, but I don't want to see cool stuff cut out of an adventure for them.
So... let me know! Would removing the pregenerated characters from our Adventure Paths and modules break your heart? Would replacing these pages with more precious words of adventure fill you with joy? Let us know!
I would rather have the content. Put all the iconics up here on the site for good, with stats at every level for those who want them, and then focus on usable page count.
... then focus on usable page count.
Which, as we've just seen, can be tight as things stand.
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I like the idea of having pregens easily available. I liked seeing their stat blocks and backgrounds emerge over the years. I think the pregens are probably pretty valuable for people getting into the hobby.
Howevery, I have never used a pregen in an AP session, only for gamemastery module one shots. I would not cry if I saw them go.
I love the iconic characters so here is my $0.02 contribution.
A) I would pay the going rate for a Pathfinder Player Companion that was the collected iconics with backstories and stat blocs for various plateaus of development.
B) Perhaps the print version could be done without the iconics, but include them in the PDF version--subscriber bonus!
dump them for more conduct, especially if you have no plans to use the APG and Magus iconics. We have seen the others enough
That would be... Icomics.That sounds like a great fan project to me!
Actually, a repository of all the Iconics at different levels would be a great fan project. I imagine that would be allowed by your community use policy? I could imagine a really well-made web page with all that information in an easy to use setup. There are always fans who are willing to make cool stuff like that and it wouldn't take away from any of your staff time!
Could the community stat up and store the iconics on the PathfinderWiki - Like the Count says thats down to the community use policy and how comfortable you are with leaving it in the hands of ...... the community.
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One possible solution is to provide write ups for the iconics at certain levels as is done now for a select few. Whenever at my local Pathfinder Society Organized Play group we have a new player without a character, we hand them an iconic character such as Valeros. So, maybe have downloadable versions of the iconics at different levels.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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(edited)
Posting for a moment as an assistant organiser to a convention, I will speak in favour of the pregenerated iconics, since a big pile of photocopied iconics at various levels can be used to provide fill-in characters for people who want to play PFS but for one reason or another don't have a currently legitimate PFS character of their own available to use in a game about to start.
If you want to use the space in the modules for something else, fair enough, but is there any chance that you could then please maintain a databank of the iconics across a broad variety of levels somewhere on-line instead for 'stand-in' duty in PFS games?
The only thing I've ever used the iconics for was exactly what Charles said above - as pregens to hand out at PaizoCon... but I've also used (starting this year) the GMG pregens. I think the iconics are fun, but I'd also support their removal in favor of :)
I think NSpicer covered my viewpoint best. Let the iconics go; use the extra 2 pages for any number of things, and don't feel you need for our sake to be consistent from one AP to the next about how those pages are used: grant a +2 page bonus to the adventure, bestiary, fiction, article-of-the-month or ads.
Since I personally have never had any use for the iconics, I'm in favor of this even if the iconic stats never appear online, in PDF form or whatever. I would hope that Paizo finds a way to make this happen at some point for those who are interested, though.
Perhaps HeroLab could help with building the stat blocks. I assume it can generate output in PDF format. Build iconic @ level 1, Save As. Level up to 2, Save As. Repeat to level 20.
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We're more likely to ditch using color ink than ditch the ads. Abandoning an opportunity to let tens of thousands of people know that there are other books they can buy if they like the one they just bought is just not an option.
I know, James. I just felt compelled to pass it on. It is, after all, the least useful part of the book to a great many of us.
But I do understand why the ads are there and how they'll likely always be there.
-Skeld
The only thing I've ever used the iconics for was exactly what Charles said above - as pregens to hand out at PaizoCon... but I've also used (starting this year) the GMG pregens. I think the iconics are fun, but I'd also support their removal in favor of :)(edited)
Posting for a moment as an assistant organiser to a convention, I will speak in favour of the pregenerated iconics, since a big pile of photocopied iconics at various levels can be used to provide fill-in characters for people who want to play PFS but for one reason or another don't have a currently legitimate PFS character of their own available to use in a game about to start.
If you want to use the space in the modules for something else, fair enough, but is there any chance that you could then please maintain a databank of the iconics across a broad variety of levels somewhere on-line instead for 'stand-in' duty in PFS games?
Mr. Nelson, I take it that you have been on the other end of the problem? ;D
Not having the two pages devoted to the Iconics opens up two great advantages.
Since they are great characters and help introduce some elements of the setting, how about a future Pathfinder Player's Compaion with their backgrouds, some more character art, and a Low, Medium, and High build for the stats. (Since you already have them worked up in the AP volumes that you have.)
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Creative Director
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Those extra 2 pages would likely NOT result in an increased wordcount for authors. They'd go into a much-needed expansion to our built-in "extra words" for when we need to expand upon the already certainly brilliant (but perhaps a bit disorganized or needing in a bit more explanation) prose of our talented and handsome/beautiful authors...
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Those extra 2 pages would likely NOT result in an increased wordcount for authors. They'd go into a much-needed expansion to our built-in "extra words" for when we need to expand upon the already certainly brilliant (but perhaps a bit disorganized or needing in a bit more explanation) prose of our talented and handsome/beautiful authors...
I rarely use PREGENS for these type of campaigns. I do like seeing the stats but to be honest I say use the space for something else.
It was great at the start but it is time to move on.
Thank you for the great product.
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I support ditching the pregens and replacing them with more lovely words and art.What the Mantis Man said, but I would like to see a free download available with their stats and backstory.+1!!!!
I'd love to see a book all about the iconics and including their backstory. I've read bits and pieces of some of them here and there, but never remember where it was when I go to tell others about it (the most common being about how Amiri got her sword). Great idea!
+ 2
So... let me know! Would removing the pregenerated characters from our Adventure Paths and modules break your heart? Would replacing these pages with more precious words of adventure fill you with joy? Let us know!
I almost never skip a page in a Pathfinder Adventure Path volume.
I stare at the cover for a moment, I read the credits page (I love that tiny sentence that comes every 6 issues), I read the table of contents to see who wrote what, I read the foreword (twice actually: the first time when I receive the issue, the second time when I start reading it, usually a few months later), I read the adventure, I read the support articles (and I love when it's a gazetteer), I read the short story, and I read the bestiary (though I skip the stat blocks).
I always skip the pregenerated characters and the "next month" page (I just open the next book). I skip the ads too (though they must do their work subliminally since I finally got a used copy of the campaign setting book a year after its release, after seeing tens of ads for it in Pathfinder products), and I never read the back cover.
Now, for the pregenerated characters.
I actually love seeing them included. When at last I can convince some friends to actually run the AP, and since we're all stil kind of beginners at character creation, we like to use the pregenerated characters to get a hold of what would be a sensible choice of feats, or spells, or armor at different levels. So please don't remove them.
(Of course, one could argue that this kind of "How to create your first character" guidelines should really have appeared in the Core Rulebook, and I'd support that. But since they're not in the Core Rulebook, the pregenerated characters in the APs are the best I get when I'm trying to navigate people through the feats chapter at character creation.)
Break my heart? no, but I would still like to see them at least in the first adventure. After that I wouldn't object to them being gone. Also I wouldn't object to them being removed from the stand alone adventures.
I already voiced my view in the Carrion Crown thread, but while I haven't used them (or yet ran an AP game, for that matter), I'd like to see the iconics stay in the first book of APs, so they're available as starting characters (but then let people level them up on their own).
I'd also like for them to STAY in the Modules line. That line is more likely to be used for one-shots and pre-generated characters are more handy there. Also, maybe Iconics fans will buy more modules and it's a good place for their various levels to be fleshed out in a for-pay context.
As a GM, I purchase Adventure Paths for one reason only. Adventures. I fully support using the freed up 2 pages for more adventure goodness. In fact, I would wholeheartedly approve taking out everything not related to the Adventure Path such as the ongoing fiction. The fiction is ok, but I don't buy Adventure Paths for fiction.
More adventure, more adventure, more adventure....
I was going to cry, wait, I use those! Then I realized I don't. At least, not in the APs. I use the module stats for one shots all the time though. The reason I pull them from modules is that it is way easier to find pregens of the right level in the module lines. I need a set of 7th level characters? I just pull out all the level 7 modules I have. Remembering which APs have a book that starts at level 7 is a pain.
So I am in favor of ditching them from the APs and using them as flex pages to add to the adventure, bestiary, and support articles as needed. I do think the support articles should be favored, because they tend to have use beyond just the AP. But flexibility is always good for your layout/design team I am sure.
Keep the 1 page in the modules though! I need those for playtests and one-shots! (Or compile them online, but I understand that is work.)
To quote myself on another thread:
I personally would rather have the pregens in case of a player's indecision ("Well, here. Use this character until a concept comes to you.") or a new player's arrival to the game table. ("Just so you can get use to the game, play this character... We'll get you more time with the rulebook soon.")
Break my heart? no, but I would still like to see them at least in the first adventure. After that I wouldn't object to them being gone. Also I wouldn't object to them being removed from the stand alone adventures.I already voiced my view in the Carrion Crown thread, but while I haven't used them (or yet ran an AP game, for that matter), I'd like to see the iconics stay in the first book of APs, so they're available as starting characters (but then let people level them up on their own).
This is a good point, although perhaps 1st level iconics can be included as sample characters in the players guides. They could be good as examples of how to fit a character into the beginning of the adventure path, with short sample backgrounds.
Not that I want to push too much work into the freebies. ;)
More space for words and art is always a win-situation, especially since you are cramming things in as it is. Space in such volumes is valuable and often cool stuff gets dropped due to constraints or editing.
I say remove the iconic pregens, maybe add them to the AP player's guide or an other online add-on, but not necessarily.
They could be put in an online download as general pregens, not tied to an AP in particular, add some extra ads for the PG or another tome... win-win.
I never bother with them and just flip the page over those two pages.
Not saying the iconics aren't cool (playing Lem in a friend's AP after all :-) I just don't like wasted space.
+ what toxycycline said: adventure adventure adventure!
My 2 cents
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Those extra 2 pages would likely NOT result in an increased wordcount for authors. They'd go into a much-needed expansion to our built-in "extra words" for when we need to expand upon the already certainly brilliant (but perhaps a bit disorganized or needing in a bit more explanation) prose of our talented and handsome/beautiful authors...
If this is the case, and the space will not be used for more content but rather for more kudos & words to/about the authors, then I think the iconics should stay since they serve a functional purpose.
Granted, most here may not use them as intended--for PCs, but it's still better to have something that's useful than something that's simply "nice".
Not saying they don't deserve it, but prioritize game value over sentiment. Especially as even the APs are occasionally run as part of open games at the stores I've played and worked at, and for game balance and simplicity it's convenient to just copy the back pages and hand them out.
Again, they may not be used in everyone's home game, but if the idea is to get new players to easily and quickly pick up pathfinder and encourage them to get playing, then they ought to stay.
I'd also suggest you amend the first post to reflect what/how those pages would be used since it may influence some votes, but not everyone's going to read to here to find out.
Those extra 2 pages would likely NOT result in an increased wordcount for authors. They'd go into a much-needed expansion to our built-in "extra words" for when we need to expand upon the already certainly brilliant (but perhaps a bit disorganized or needing in a bit more explanation) prose of our talented and handsome/beautiful authors...If this is the case, and the space will not be used for more content but rather for more kudos & words to/about the authors, then I think the iconics should stay since they serve a functional purpose.
That is NOT AT ALL what James is saying.
Those extra 2 pages would likely NOT result in an increased wordcount for authors. They'd go into a much-needed expansion to our built-in "extra words" for when we need to expand upon the already certainly brilliant (but perhaps a bit disorganized or needing in a bit more explanation) prose of our talented and handsome/beautiful authors...If this is the case, and the space will not be used for more content but rather for more kudos & words to/about the authors, then I think the iconics should stay since they serve a functional purpose.
James meant they'd use it as padding during the development/editorial phase. They assign the same word count to each section, but have the flexibility to do what they need to when things go over or are confusing. It would most certainly end up as content, just not fixed to a particular section.
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I would LOVE to put all of the iconics' stats online, with versions of them from 1st to 20th level...
But not only does that require us to figure a new place on the website to present and store that info (the blog won't do—and Paizo's web architecture is not something I really have much input on so I'm not even sure this is something we can or would want to do)... but generating 360 statblocks for something that's not a print product is not something anyone here at Paizo has time to do.
Well, between the already published statblocks over the past year from APs and modules, you already have a good start. I'm sure that no one would object if it was a living document, that started with a single PDF that contained 1) the "Meet the Iconics" writeup for each character, and 2) all the currently existing statblocks for that character. It could then be periodically updated whenever someone stats out one of the iconics for a new level.
As for where on the website to host it, I'd say just make it a freebie PDF and put a link to it on the Pathfinder RPG page, much like you already do with PDFs for errata, character sheets, ect.
I don't know if the currently existing statblocks are all PFS compliant, but if they are, you could also replace the currently existing PFS pregen file with a level 1-12 subset of the iconics document.
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James meant they'd use it as padding during the development/editorial phase. They assign the same word count to each section, but have the flexibility to do what they need to when things go over or are confusing. It would most certainly end up as content, just not fixed to a particular section.Those extra 2 pages would likely NOT result in an increased wordcount for authors. They'd go into a much-needed expansion to our built-in "extra words" for when we need to expand upon the already certainly brilliant (but perhaps a bit disorganized or needing in a bit more explanation) prose of our talented and handsome/beautiful authors...If this is the case, and the space will not be used for more content but rather for more kudos & words to/about the authors, then I think the iconics should stay since they serve a functional purpose.
Ah, I misunderstood what he meant.
I thought his 'NOT result in increased word count for the authors' meant that the extra pages would NOT be used as content overflow, but for some other purpose--like the intro commentary that's nice, but not exactly necessary to the module/AP.