Creative Director
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Now that I've got your attention...
When we started Pathfinder several years ago, one thing that folks really really wanted us to do was to provide statistics for our various iconic characters. We've been doing that every month since the first Pathfinder module and the first Adventure Path as a result, using the last page of every module or pages 90–91 of every Pathfinder AP for that very reason.
What do folks think about us no longer doing this? Instead, the pages currently taken up by pregenerated iconics would be absorbed into the body of each book (likely adding a page or two of content to the adventure as a general rule). Stats for Merisiel and Sajan and Lini are already all over the place, and as we're gearing up for our EIGHTH adventure path, I'm starting to wonder if the usefulness of those pages has outstayed its welcome.
So... let me know! Would removing the pregenerated characters from our Adventure Paths and modules break your heart? Would replacing these pages with more precious words of adventure fill you with joy? Let us know!
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Personally, I think the pregen iconic PCs in the APs have kind of served their purpose and run their course. I don't dislike them. I just don't like them more than I would like that space being used to enhance the other existing content. After all, with the exception of the APG iconics, we've got examples where they're pretty well-statted out at every level they need to be. And, for anyone who's followed along with the APs for awhile now, they're becoming repetitive.
So...I think it would make more sense eventually to create a downloadable 1-2 page PDF with the pregens on them, have a reference in the actual book that mentions where you go to download them...and then use that bit of marketing to draw consumers to the Paizo website and a specific place where they can find more web enhancement stuff to...well, enhance...their campaign for that particular AP.
Meanwhile, that should also help free up 1-2 pages in the actual book, which you can put to use for a whole variety of other things. For instance, the APs have at times struggled to take PCs up into the 17th-18th level range while still maintaining enough of the adventure's "story" in the face of having to include "extra XP" encounters to keep them advancing that far. These 1-2 pages spread across six issues of the AP could potentially help with that.
Or, another alternative use for those pages could include extra fiction in the event you want your authors to have more "elbow room" to flex their literary muscles.
Or, you can squeeze in some more monsters.
Or, you can include extra rules elements like the mass combat stuff that appeared in Kingmaker without having to trim anything else.
Or, you can have an extra long supporting article that helps enhance the campaign setting with more information on where the campaign takes place.
Or, you could have any mix of these things in any or all of the six issues over a single AP.
And, lastly, you wouldn't have to dedicate portions of your foreword to including stuff that otherwise would have been cut from other sections of the book for space reasons.
To me, I think that might wind up being a better use of that space. It's obviously important to still help new players break into the game. But, I've usually found the need for the pregen characters in the standalone modules moreso than an AP...because, quite frankly, most gaming groups who make a conscious decision to run through an entire AP, also take the extra time to create their own PCs to enjoy and personalize the experience rather than take on the pregens and run them through it.
But that's just my two-cents,
--Neil
I don't dislike the iconics, but as has been said above, more lovely words and pictures, please!
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I mentioned this back in the Carrion Crown thread, but I'll mention it again here for posterity.
I love the iconics and I'd like to see them as downloadable content, especially the new APG (and Ultimate Magic) iconics. They could work as great ads for your crunchy books, your core book and all that jazz.
Giving the adventures more room to breathe can only be a good thing.
BUT!
If we couldn't have the iconics as downloadable content then leave them in the books. I DO use them by giving them to players who forget their character sheets.
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Creative Director
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As long as they're available online for download somewhere, take 'em out. Just maybe make a mention somewhere as to which Iconics will be featured in each particular issue or cycle of the APs.
They might be someday... but I won't tether their removal to a requirement that the stats become immediately available online.
As for what iconics will be "featured" in a particular issue... we'd leave that up to folks recognizing them in the art. We'll, of course, continue to use the iconics in the art—that's their main purpose, after all—we just won't bother listing them in the book.
After all... it's only important to know who's on such a list when one is generating the art order for the book; once the art's done, the list is useless.
I find the pregens useful. I sometimes need to add an enemy to an encounter, or add an ally to the party. I have used the pregens to do that. It was painless to do so, and they were a suitable level. I have often used the pregens for other things too, like using the spell list of one of them as the contents of a spellbook. I once even used them as pregenerated characters in a convention pickup game.
Use the space to make NPCs, like hirelings or potential cohorts, who could bring more cultural and regional flavor to the APs.
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Creative Director
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I support this initiative, like it has been said already, you can put them online, that's way more helpful and save precious pages from the AP and modules :D
I would LOVE to put all of the iconics' stats online, with versions of them from 1st to 20th level...
But not only does that require us to figure a new place on the website to present and store that info (the blog won't do—and Paizo's web architecture is not something I really have much input on so I'm not even sure this is something we can or would want to do)... but generating 360 statblocks for something that's not a print product is not something anyone here at Paizo has time to do.
SO! It's best to assume that if the iconic pregens go away from the adventures... those pages will probably NOT be "moving" somewhere else. We'll just stop doing them.
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Creative Director
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Use the space to make NPCs, like hirelings or potential cohorts, who could bring more cultural and regional flavor to the APs.
Thing is... for adventures (which is where these pages already appear), we already DO this. They're just worked into the adventure itself. I'd rather not ghettoize an NPC by saying "You can use this guy as an ally if you want," when I can actually integrate an NPC into the adventure. We've done this before PLENTY of times (see our latest AP volume, "Souls for Smuggler's Shiv" for an example), and will continue to do so.
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I find the pregens useful. I sometimes need to add an enemy to an encounter, or add an ally to the party. I have used the pregens to do that. It was painless to do so, and they were a suitable level. I have often used the pregens for other things too, like using the spell list of one of them as the contents of a spellbook. I once even used them as pregenerated characters in a convention pickup game.
Use the space to make NPCs, like hirelings or potential cohorts, who could bring more cultural and regional flavor to the APs.
I pull NPCs right out of the adventure path or module for hirelings and cohorts. I've also gotten use out of the Gamemastery Guide and the NPC guide--the GMG being infinitely more useful to me than the pregens.
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I would not miss the pre-generated iconics and would appreciate that space being devoted to something new or freshened up, or alternatively being absorbed by the adventure or other articles. Even advertising would be OK by me (but I don't think many would agree with that).
If the iconic information was collated in a pdf then that would be a pretty cool resource and would certainly be a positive transition for something that has been there from the start. Not a dealbreaker for me if it doesn't happen though.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
I'd LOVE two extra pages of content, and I've never had any use for the iconics.
EDIT: Whoops, someone already asked about putting them online.
I'm in favor of removing the iconics to make room for extended content.
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...but generating 360 statblocks for something that's not a print product is not something anyone here at Paizo has time to do.
I'm pretty sure a lot of folks here on the forums would love to help out with that. ;)
Seriously though, I've never used the pregens in my games and I'd love to see the stat blocks be replaced with I'd be more likely to use, whether it be an additional encounter in the adventure, another monster for the Bestiary, or whatever else you guys might come up with.
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Creative Director
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If you want to use the space in the modules for something else, fair enough, but is there any chance that you could then please maintain a databank of the iconics across a broad variety of levels somewhere on-line instead for 'stand-in' duty in PFS games?
There's a chance, sure, but as I've said above, such a bank of 360 stat blocks would by its very nature be a VERY low priority for us to create.
This isn't really a "Where should we put our Iconics statblocks?" kind of question. It's more of a "Would anyone miss them if they went away?" I'm not interested in ADDING to the workload as much as I am replacing workloads... ;-)
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... most gaming groups who make a conscious decision to run through an entire AP, also take the extra time to create their own PCs to enjoy and personalize the experience rather than take on the pregens and run them through it.
That's my Pathfinders and I, plugging away through Rise of the Runelords. Even though I borrowed an idea from the boards here and made two PCs the Foxglove sisters...
I don't object to the idea of pregens printed in each book, I think they can be useful, but what has been bothering me for some time is that the same characters keep getting used.
Don't get me wrong, the Iconics are great characters, but what I would like to see are pregens that actually fit into the setting of the adventure path they're printed in. For example, if during the Legacy of Fire path we were given a group of four Katepeshian characters, or Cheliaxian during the Council of Thieves.
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Creative Director
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Hold on, are you telling me you don't have some sort of repository where these stats are stored, to be shared amongst the staff for their use in the different projects?
That's exactly what I'm telling you. The realities of how files get laid out, the fact that we've had to reboot the entire rules system, and the way that our needs for these guys at different levels has varied from project to project has made it logistically much easier to simply build them as we need them.
We can't just copy/paste them from one book to another, in other words. It's a lot more complicated than that once you involve anything other than raw text.
I would LOVE to put all of the iconics' stats online, with versions of them from 1st to 20th level...
But not only does that require us to figure a new place on the website to present and store that info (the blog won't do—and Paizo's web architecture is not something I really have much input on so I'm not even sure this is something we can or would want to do)... but generating 360 statblocks for something that's not a print product is not something anyone here at Paizo has time to do.
You could toss them here into the forums, bit by bit.. And you wouldn't even need to generate that many, just a header for the character, with the feats they take, and let the GMs who use them work the wealth-by-level to equip them how they see fit.
Post it, sticky it, lock it, and let it be used as a point of reference.
ex.
Amiri, Human Barbarian, CN
Stats (before att. points)
1st lvl: Rage Ability
2nd lvl: stuff
3rd lvl: feat, rage ability
and so on.
GMs take the iconic, choose the level, assign the points, spend the wealth, done.
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I like the iconics. I've used them before as fill-in characters and for playtest. I'm not in favor of removing them and will miss them if they're cut. However, it won't change my enjoyment of the products, nor will it deter me from buying. In other words, I'll be ok.
But if you're intent on removing something and supplying 1-2 more pages of content, I'd be much happier if you ditched the ads. It galls me to no end that I'm paying for the privilege of being advertised to (for products I've generally already bought or have committed to buying by virtue of being a subscriber). I realize that I'm not the target for the ads and there is virtually no chance of them going away, but I'd still rather see the ads go than the iconics.
Meh. :|
-Skeld
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Creative Director
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You could toss them here into the forums, bit by bit.. And you wouldn't even need to generate that many, just a header for the character, with the feats they take, and let the GMs who use them work the wealth-by-level to equip them how they see fit.
Each one would have to be, essentially, re-written from the ground up, though. Copy-pasting an iconic's entry in an AP into a forum post would result in a hideous mess.
As an example... here's the best I can do in a few seconds of copy/paste from an AP:
LEM
HP 20 AC 18, touch 16, flat-footed 14 (+2 armor, +3 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 size) Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +3; +2 vs. fear, +4 vs. bardic performance, language-dependent, sonic effects
SKILLS
Acrobatics +9 (+7 to jump), Climb +1, Disable
Melee short sword +2 (1d4–1/19–20) Ranged dagger +6 (1d3–1/19–20) Base Atk +2; CMB 0; CMD 15 Special Abilities bardic knowledge +1, bardic
performance (countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +2), versatile performance (wind instrument: Diplomacy, Handle Animal), well-versed
Spells Known (CL 3rd) 1st (4/day)—cure light wounds, disguise self
(DC 14), hideous laughter (DC 14), silent
image (DC 14) 0 (at will)—detect magic, ghost sound (DC 13),
light, mage hand, prestidigitation, summon instrument
Device +5, Knowledge (local) +8, Perform MALE HALFLING (comedy) +7, Perform (wind instruments) +11,
DEITY Shelyn
Perception +7, Spellcraft +7, Stealth +13, Use HOMELAND Cheliax Magic Device +9
CHARACTER TRAITS FEATS
CLASS/LEVEL Bard 3 ALIGNMENT Chaotic Good INITIATIVE +3 SPEED 20 ft.
Dodge, Extra Performance
Council of Thieves
DEFENSE OFFENSE
ABILITIES Combat Gear wand of cure light wounds (42 charges); Gear leather armor, short sword,
STRENGTH 8 DEXTERITY 16 CONSTITUTION 13 INTELLIGENCE 12 WISDOM 8 CHARISMA 17
throwing daggers (4), ring of protection +1, backpack, masterwork flute, masterwork thieves’ tools, rations (6), spell component pouch, sunrods (3), 22 gp
Although Lem was raised in the lap of luxury, his childhood was anything but comfortable. Born into slavery, Lem was sold a half-dozen times to different nobles before he reached the age of 2. Always quick to side with the underdog, Lem has learned that his most powerful trait is his optimism and sense of humor—skills that more than make up for his small stature and impulsive nature.
I'm not interested in going through and reformatting that clutter. Nor am I interested in taking anyone who works here off a project to do that job.
If folks want to take it upon themselves to start transferring iconic statblocks into forum posts here... I'm cool with that. It's probably a bit early, yet, though, since the EARLIEST we'll start this change, if we DO decide to go with this change, would be in February.
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Creative Director
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But if you're intent on removing something and supplying 1-2 more pages of content, I'd be much happier if you ditched the ads. It galls me to no end that I'm paying for the privilege of being advertised to (for products I've generally already bought or have committed to buying by virtue of being a subscriber). I realize that I'm not the target for the ads and there is virtually no chance of them going away, but I'd still rather see the ads go than the iconics.
We're more likely to ditch using color ink than ditch the ads. Abandoning an opportunity to let tens of thousands of people know that there are other books they can buy if they like the one they just bought is just not an option.
I see what you mean by the formatting. Not a problem, though. Give the forum-goers a place to paste statblocks, and they will.
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I like the iconics, having the stat blocks in there has never bothered me, but I won’t miss them if they’re gone; they’ve probably just about served their purpose. For the sake of completeness I’d like to see all of the iconics get the PFRPG treatment in an AP, it sounds like that will probably happen before they go anyway.
One thing to consider is that not every GM is browsing the Paizo messageboards.
I am pretty sure that many don't even know about them, or they just don't care much for internet. They buy their Pathfinder stuff in a store and done, no update, forums, errata, nada.
For these folks, the iconics at the end of each adventure path are a handy option for last minute PCs.
Even if an iconic pack was provided here on Paizo, free or for sale, they would not know about it or access it.
That would be... Icomics.
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Creative Director
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One thing to consider is that not every GM is browsing the Paizo messageboards.
Which is why I'm not going to base my decision solely on feedback from this thread, or even from these boards. I'll be asking folks at Gen Con, asking them in chat rooms, and when EnWorld gets their site back online, I'll ask it there too. And elsewhere too. Pretty much everywhere I can get feedback from Pathfinder fans, basically. And I'll probably even ask folks about it in a foreword in front of Pathfinder's adventure... and I'l CERTAINLY ask for feedback in the same volume we first try it out (if we do indeed try it out).
I'm not particularly interested in making a snap-decision the same hour I post this question, in other words, so no worries! :-)
I would LOVE to put all of the iconics' stats online, with versions of them from 1st to 20th level...
+1. I'd love to see this some time in the future.
As for the iconic pre-gens, I'd like to see them stay in the APs. While my players haven't chosen to use them thus far, I use them as additional NPCs, so the stats are useful for me. In fact, when my players hit Magnimar, some of the iconics will be entering play as a rival party of adventurers.
All this being said, considering how popular the iconics are, at least the first generation of them (and hopefully the following ones), publishing a Iconic booklet would be a great idea.
I would recommend a paper version (along a PDF one), as it is convenient to carry a booklet for a game.
Maybe putting them in character sheet format, in multiple detachable pages, to give them to the players?
I support ditching the pregens and replacing them with more lovely words and art.
What the Mantis Man said, but I would like to see a free download available with their stats and backstory.