Then again I like the way the Psionic rules work and am a fan of interesting multifaceted Dwarves, so go figure.
So what happens if you have a mildly disruptive player who's playing a character that will kill all vampires/wewewolfs on sight or worse works out a way to get them together in one place and kill the lot of them? For that matter I'm not sure a Paladin is viable in this AP as written.
Also is preventing the resurrection of a lich really worth saving the unlives of a bunch of vampires.
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I am happy to see a horror AP.Grew up playing the original Ravenloft and loved it. I was a little dissapointed in the CoT and SD, but not as much as some.8D. Love Kingmaker(just started DMing it)liking what I see of the Shiv so far and looking foward to a Horror fest ( classic horror not hills have eyes gore fest horror, tho RotRL Hooh Mountain was fun.)
Keep up the awesome work Paizo. and thanx.
I've got complete faith in you guys; I'm very excited to see the AP. I just can see why people would be concerned based on the very brief descriptions that have been provided. Given Paizo's track record, I think it's a little silly to freak out over the descriptions, even though I can see why some would.
If the lich in question is the Whispering Tyrant? Yes!
Ditto this.
Also, keep in mind that Tar-Baphon is/was the foremost adherent and promoter of the Whispering Way on Golarion. You might want to go read about that philosophy's end-goal and see how that grabs you. For instance, if the Whispering Tyrant returns, you could see the world populated with a lot worse things than just vampires. :-]
But that's just my two-cents,
--Neil
Hmm... Consider me interested. I would love to get the chance to play this AP once it comes out! :-)
Creative Director
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So what happens if you have a mildly disruptive player who's playing a character that will kill all vampires/wewewolfs on sight or worse works out a way to get them together in one place and kill the lot of them? For that matter I'm not sure a Paladin is viable in this AP as written.
Also is preventing the resurrection of a lich really worth saving the unlives of a bunch of vampires.
The adventure's not written yet, but I suspect if you want to take a "KILL ALL VAMPIRES" route, you'll miss out on a lot of the adventure's roleplaying and mystery and themes.
We'll do our best to accomidate ALL play styles, but there WILL be a preferred play style, and the Carrion Crown Player's Guide is going to be the place where we try to skew the players into building characters that will be good choices for the campaign. Just as a city-hating barbarian who has demophobia would be a poor choice of character in an urban campaign like "Council of Thieves," there will be poor character choices in "Carrion Crown." There'll ALWAYS be poor character choices. Helping players avoid making those choices, or at the very least letting them know beforehand what they might want to play is a poor character choice, is the primary purpose of the AP Player's Guides.
Lycanthropes don't have to be evil; maybe the main "society" of werewolves in Ustalav is neutral- or even good-aligned.
On the Vampire front.. You could have a vampire like Blade or Angel that are fighting other vampires. Such a vampire could very well be a useful ally for the players.
Personally, I trust that Paizo will do this AP right :)
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Lycanthropes don't have to be evil; maybe the main "society" of werewolves in Ustalav is neutral- or even good-aligned.
On the Vampire front.. You could have a vampire like Blade or Angel that are fighting other vampires. Such a vampire could very well be a useful ally for the players.
Personally, I trust that Paizo will do this AP right :)
My info on Ustalav's werewolves comes from Prince of Wolves
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Should go without saying... but maybe not.
Until these adventures are actually out, it's a bit early to start panicking that we're going to be producing an adventure that everyone will hate. We DO listen to feedback from our customers, and the dissatisfaction with certain elements of Second Darkness has been made quite clear.
I'm a huge Paizo fan, but I'm going to respectfully disagree here.
Worrying after the event is meaningless. Trying to let the game designers know what we want based upon the rough sketch is exactly the right time to give feedback that might actually inform the writing.
I have great confidence in Neil and it's kind of a relief to me that he has been given the vampire brief, but I (and others) want to remind the members of Team Awesome that vampires are horrendous - having the vampires mess with the PCs can be awesome, and create fantastic moments of dread, catharsis, and whatnot.
having the players run around doing increasingly depraved things because a vampire lord promises he'll help them afterward (which is what a quick reading of the adventure description sounds like) is both stupid ("Trust me, I'm pure, distilled evil") and demotivating.
Like I said, it seems to me that now is the time to express our desires.
Worrying after the event is meaningless. Trying to let the game designers know what we want based upon the rough sketch is exactly the right time to give feedback that might actually inform the writing.
(snipped for brevity)
Like I said, it seems to me that now is the time to express our desires.
The problem is, so many people want such different things. The other problem is that a brief description isn't enough to judge their plans. You can't judge an adventure by its blurb. That just isn't enough.
There's no way they can listen to the feedback from everyone. Nor should they. For everyone who has good feedback to give, there's a dozen whose feedback is not at all helpful. If they tried to accommodate everyone, it'd definitely be a failure. So they've got to go based on previous experience and not react to the flashfire opinions of people who don't have enough information to make a quality judgment.
If folks learned anything about me from RPG Superstar 2009, they'll have noticed I like taking preconceived notions which people sometimes have about things (like what will and won't work) and then turn it on its ear while still bringing the awesome. I know I'll never satisfy everyone with my approach. That's not really the goal. But, as long as I stay true to my own convictions (while keeping an open mind and listening to what people are thinking), I'm confident I can come up with something that'll surprise and interest most of them. That much is my goal. Now, I still have to fit that within the guidelines the Paizo developers give me. But, in this case, I think I can...
I'm a huge Paizo fan, but I'm going to respectfully disagree here.
Worrying after the event is meaningless. Trying to let the game designers know what we want based upon the rough sketch is exactly the right time to give feedback that might actually inform the writing.
I would tend to agree.
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I'm very much looking forward to this. Horror is one of the best genres of game out there. Fantasy horror like the flavour of the 2nd ed and 3.5 Ravenloft stuff gets the blood pumping and leads to great conflicts and roleplaying opertunities.
I understand that some people don't enjoy running away from things, but fear means living to fight another day. If your PCs are either winning a fight or TPKing it can get stale.
I'm a huge Paizo fan, but I'm going to respectfully disagree here.
Worrying after the event is meaningless. Trying to let the game designers know what we want based upon the rough sketch is exactly the right time to give feedback that might actually inform the writing.
I have great confidence in Neil and it's kind of a relief to me that he has been given the vampire brief, but I (and others) want to remind the members of Team Awesome that vampires are horrendous - having the vampires mess with the PCs can be awesome, and create fantastic moments of dread, catharsis, and whatnot.
having the players run around doing increasingly depraved things because a vampire lord promises he'll help them afterward (which is what a quick reading of the adventure description sounds like) is both stupid ("Trust me, I'm pure, distilled evil") and demotivating.Like I said, it seems to me that now is the time to express our desires.
Again, a whole load of +1.
I actually am looking forward to this AP. It may be the first time I allow my players to create an evil PC from the outset. The greater evils in the AP should help keep them somewhat in check and could make for a very interesting campaign.
Note Wes's previous post on the matter, though:
Just because the villains in this series will have a more horrific theme shouldn't imply that the PCs will have an easier time by adopting the same. As in many horror tales, the threat and fearfulness of the antagonist is cast into stark relief by the innocence, heroism, or incorruptibility of the protagonists.
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But imagine the roleplay possibilities....
The vampire lord doesn't want the lich to return to power because it would certainly take some of his lands, power, holdings, etc... So, he sends a new vampire to route out the problem and stop this lich from returning at all costs.
An anti-paladin whose god feels the return of the lich would in fringe upon his own deific powers wants to put a stop to the return of the lich so sends his anti-paladin on a quest to stop the returm at all costs.
From the same church, a cleric finds his way with the anti-paladin. Not wanting to be shown up by the anti-paladin order, and the clerical order wanting to hold more power than the paladin order, the cleric must make sure it is his actions that outshine the anti-paladins in preventing the return of the lich.
The Aspis Consortium figures there has got to be money to be made and relics to be found that will fetch a high price so they are sending their agent. Besides, you know those pesky Pathfinders are going to be involved in this somehow....
You've got the wizard, always curious in how to increase her ever grwoing power, sees this as the perfect way to learn the secrets to the journey of lichdom and a way to steal this power/secret, while eliminating a potential future adversary.
The bard just has to go so he has a tale to write that will be sung throughout Golarion.
A pharoah/crime boss/big bad evil guy was double crossed (family was double crossed) by the Whispering Tyrant sometime in the past. No way he is going to stand by and see the return of this guy. Time to send a lackey to see what is going on and put a stop to it.
The Teppish family of Taldoran nobility of yesteryear lost all their holdings due to the uprisings of other, jealous noble families. The Whispering Tyrant may have been behind the uprising and their ultimate downfall. It is time for the long lost heir to seek out sweet revenge.
And finally, the Red Mantis had a hand in someway in putting this lich, or his minions, away permanently the last time. They always hold to their contracts and need to insure their contract remains filled so they now send an agent to make sure the lich stays imprisoned permanently.
Those are just a few thoughts off the top of my head. It could be done if the DM works it properly. None of them would be strong enough to fight this greater evil by themselves so they have to rely on the power of all...the enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing.
Fair enough; letting us know what you want before the fact IS a good move.
James, I want a new puppy.
On behalf of the magnificent Mr Jacobs, I've put a lovely little puppy in my next adventure for you Katerek.
Rich
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On behalf of the magnificent Mr Jacobs, I've put a lovely little puppy in my next adventure for you Katerek.
Rich
pleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbeth ePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbethePrinceInChains pleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbeth ePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbethePrinceInChains pleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainsplease
Just wanted to chime in that I look forward to this AP more than to any before. As an old Ravenloft-DM (who still wishes the Arthouse-line would have continued) I'm looking forward to what you guys at Paizo can do horror-wise over an whole AP. I'm literally drooling and hope you'll give people like your own authors, Pett and the like some shots, so that Ustalav doesn't become as bland as in Prince of Wolves, which unfortunately bored me.
All the best,
Cheers,
Endzeitgeist
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pleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbeth ePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbethePrinceInChains pleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbeth ePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainspleasedon'tbethePrinceInChains pleasedon'tbethePrinceInChainspleaseOn behalf of the magnificent Mr Jacobs, I've put a lovely little puppy in my next adventure for you Katerek.
Rich
Fear not. It will be an amalgam creature template from Advanced Bestiary: Pugwampi/Poodle
Fear not. It will be an amalgam creature template from Advanced Bestiary: Pugwampi/Poodle
Awesome! A poowampi! Poodle mixes are the best. Anti-allergenic too!
As always Gorbacz has rumbled my beastie before it even gets its curly coat on:)
I'll just have to put in more giant penguins.
So, i know there will be an element of the Cthulhu mythos in this AP, but i wonder if there will be room to squeeze in the 5th level module CARRION HILL (Richard Pett) before or after TRIAL OF THE BEAST. Or would this be overkill?
(i've been wanting to run Carrion Hill after we got through with the Serpents Skull, then you had to go and announce the Carrion Crown AP)Hmmm.....
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Creative Director
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So, i know there will be an element of the Cthulhu mythos in this AP, but i wonder if there will be room to squeeze in the 5th level module CARRION HILL (Richard Pett) before or after TRIAL OF THE BEAST. Or would this be overkill?
(i've been wanting to run Carrion Hill after we got through with the Serpents Skull, then you had to go and announce the Carrion Crown AP)Hmmm.....
In fact, the adventure path DOES progress relatively close to Carrion Hill, and there's actually a better than good chance that a portion of Part 4 of this adventure could even take place in Carrion Hill. Stitching Carrion Hill into the adventure after the 3rd part would probably work quite well, although you'd have to advance some elements up for it to work as a 9th level or thereabouts adventure. Which, given some of the nature of the adventure, should be pretty easy.
In fact, the adventure path DOES progress relatively close to Carrion Hill, and there's actually a better than good chance that a portion of Part 4 of this adventure could even take place in Carrion Hill. Stitching Carrion Hill into the adventure after the 3rd part would probably work quite well, although you'd have to advance some elements up for it to work as a 9th level or thereabouts adventure. Which, given some of the nature of the adventure, should be pretty easy.So, i know there will be an element of the Cthulhu mythos in this AP, but i wonder if there will be room to squeeze in the 5th level module CARRION HILL (Richard Pett) before or after TRIAL OF THE BEAST. Or would this be overkill?
(i've been wanting to run Carrion Hill after we got through with the Serpents Skull, then you had to go and announce the Carrion Crown AP)Hmmm.....
That is awesome news. Thanks James.
If we're doing pre-feedback and all:
I'm nervous that this isn't so much a "campaign" as it is a "series of modules with the same theme." Of course things can and will be different than the blurbs we've seen so far, however the vibe I'm getting so far is that the whole "follow the Whispering Way" is just a gimmic to move us from one monster-mash to the other. I like how the APs tend to be somewhat "serial." When it becomes more "episodic" I lose interest and ask "why didn't they just release these as standalone modules?" My litmus test: could I run these books out of order and have the plot still make sense? (I'm ignoring the fact they go up in level.) If yes, then I am disapointed.
- my 2c
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Creative Director
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If we're doing pre-feedback and all:
I'm nervous that this isn't so much a "campaign" as it is a "series of modules with the same theme." Of course things can and will be different than the blurbs we've seen so far, however the vibe I'm getting so far is that the whole "follow the Whispering Way" is just a gimmic to move us from one monster-mash to the other. I like how the APs tend to be somewhat "serial." When it becomes more "episodic" I lose interest and ask "why didn't they just release these as standalone modules?" My litmus test: could I run these books out of order and have the plot still make sense? (I'm ignoring the fact they go up in level.) If yes, then I am disapointed.
- my 2c
We've been doing Adventure Paths for close to 7 years. One thing I've learned of many is that an Adventure Path cannot be summarized easily in 6 short bursts of text, and thus cannot be judged on the basis of the same. The teaser text for these products is just that: a teaser. It's not meant to be a full dissection of a six-part campaign, nor a detailed outline. It's meant to let folks know what's coming, and that is still MONTHS away.
In any case... Carrion Crown is in the Adventure Path line. It will thus not be a series of standalone modules. It will be an Adventure Path.
I know folks get excited about these things... but over-analysis of the teaser text is not the best way to judge the final product.
Here's my way of judging teaser text: "...set in Ustalav." Done pre-judging, ready to cut anybody who gets in my wa- I mean, appropriately excited to acquire the upcoming product.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
I am very excited about this adventure path. Hopefully, we will be done with Kingmaker before this is published.
Following the discussion on this AP, the most important thing for me will be to get my players to dump the stereotypical view of "them vs. evil" - otherwise it will all be hack'n'slash'n'loot and the nuances between gray and darker gray will not come into play.
Ruyan.
I don't know if we're allowed to put in requests, but hey, here goes:
I know that most people came to Paizo through D&D 3.5. However, there's some of us, ie myself, that come from a White-Wolf background. And one thing we love is having things happen to our character that are beyond our control, or otherwise getting modifiers placed on our character sheet that we didn't put there.
You've toyed with this before: the "moldspeaker" idea from LoF got me more excited than any other concept in that entire AP.
Since this is a horror game, please consider having these sorts of things available - I can't think of a place where this would be more in-theme. In Ravenloft, for example, there were rules around the 3 types of curses you could acquire: beast, coward, and ringleader. And these would be inflicted upon you for performing certain types of actions. (Mostly negative, but with some mechnical benefits as well.)
I know that not all players enjoy "bad things messing with their characters" so there should be some option to not do this. However, please remember that there is an audience of us out that that thrives off of that sort of material. I see hints of it mentioned in the first AP synopsis, and I don't know what it portends, but I want to encourage you to really run with it. Having a character grow (degrade?) like that over the course of a campaign is a truly awesome story to tell.
How did Nick Logue not get a piece of this pie?
Surely this AP is a perfect match for his sick & twisted mind, need I mention The Skinsaw Murders...
Pett wrote Skinsaw Murders; Logue wrote Hook Mountain, but your point is well taken.
OMG, my bad! But hey they were both pretty awesome and twisted!
That's sad news if we have lost Mr. Logue for good.
But the good news is that since you liked The Skinsaw Murders so much, you've got Richard Pett still contributing to Carrion Crown.
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Pett wrote Skinsaw Murders; Logue wrote Hook Mountain, but your point is well taken.OMG, my bad! But hey they were both pretty awesome and twisted!
That's sad news if we have lost Mr. Logue for good.
Wow for that I am pretty sure Pett will creep into your house and do unspeakable things to you... like do a one man show of barney the dinosaur the musical.