So just for fun intersted to know is this the most powerful low level build possible with the APG? AND I STRESS for "FUN". I don't think anyone would ever serisouly try and play this and expect the GM to take it lying down hehehe.
Barbarian Level 1 Power Attack
Alchemist Level 2
Alchemist Level 3 Feral Mutagen
Base strength 20 (18+2)
BAB = +2
20 + rage(4) morale + mutagen (4)alchemical + enlarge(2) size = Strength 30
Large size Primary Attacks with power attack
Bite +10 2d6+12
Claw +10 1d8+12
Claw +10 1d8+12
average damage if all hit which they probably would with a +10 to hit
52 damage per full attack
if a friendly wizard or cleric puts a bull strength +4 enchantment on top of that
Strength 34
Bite +12 2d6+14
Claw +12 1d8+14
Claw +12 1d8+14
+12 to hit and average of 58 dmg per round
Anyone else got a build that can beat that at 3rd level ? 5th ?
its not really playable since each of the buffs takes a standard action so its rage + mutagen + enlarge + bull strength = 3-4 rounds to get setup.
still they are some fun numbers to look at for such a low level chracter.
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Actually, if you play with traits then you can take Accelerated Drinker- it allows you to drink a potion as a move action so long as you started your turn with it in your hands. You could just walk around with both the mutagen and the extract of enlarge person in your hands. First round of combat, move action drink the enlarge person, standard action drink the mutagen. Next round, rage and tear into thine enemies. That way, you only waste one round of buffing. If your wizard/cleric friend casts the bull's strength on you, then that's just their 1st turn, so you can still start tearing into people by the second turn.
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Better*: You have an arena run by an alchemist that has the ability to infuse mutagens and extracts (making them usable by others) and mixes enlarge person, rage, bull's strength and mutagen into the main attraction's immediately-pre-fight beverage. If it's a level 20 alchemist that's +8 to all stats and +8 natural armor (assuming that they specialize in mutagens), with +2 from the rage spell, +2 from enlarge person and +4 from bull's strength. Every contestant now has a minimum strength score of 17 (1 + 16) and will mostly like have high 20s or low 30s. Makes for great slaughter!
* And by better, I mean a cool story element.
In other news, yes that is ridiculous. Luckily you've used all your resources for the day on the fake BBEG.
Actually, if you play with traits then you can take Accelerated Drinker- it allows you to drink a potion as a move action so long as you started your turn with it in your hands. You could just walk around with both the mutagen and the extract of enlarge person in your hands. First round of combat, move action drink the enlarge person, standard action drink the mutagen. Next round, rage and tear into thine enemies. That way, you only waste one round of buffing. If your wizard/cleric friend casts the bull's strength on you, then that's just their 1st turn, so you can still start tearing into people by the second turn.
I don't think accelerated drinker applies to extracts only to poitions so while you could qauff a potion of enlarge person for 50gp you can't with an extract.
extracts are not potions although they seem very similiar
otherwise this ability is akin to quicken spell and would be broken. also since there another ability letting you drink 2 extracts at once but cost a slot 2 level higher I think its safge to say accelerated drinking does not apply to extracts
In other news, yes that is ridiculous. Luckily you've used all your resources for the day on the fake BBEG.
heheh exactly what I meant when i said your GM wouldnt take that nonsense lying down ;)
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Extracts say that you drink them exactly like potions, so I don't see why it wouldn't work. They take move actions to draw regardless, so it's hardly like quicken spell; Unless you metagame that you always carry a potion in your hand before battle, it would still take you a minimum of 2 move actions to drink an extract (as opposed to 1 swift action). Please examine things a little more closely before you start calling foul and using false examples. Mutagens specifically call out that they require a standard action to drink, though.
Heck, it's barely any of your daily resources, though. The mutagen will last for another 20 minutes, and even then he could brew another one, it would take an hour. Other than that, you've used one extract and a few rounds of rage. Highly efficient, I'd say :P
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I don't think Accelerated Drinker applies to extracts only to poitions so while you could qauff a potion of enlarge person for 50gp you can't with an extract.
Extracts are not potions although they seem very similiar.
Extracts say that you drink them exactly like potions, so I don't see why it wouldn't work. ... Please examine things a little more closely before you start calling foul and using false examples.
No, I wouldn't allow it at, say, my Pathfinder Society table. Accelerated Drinker works for potions, period, not potion-like liquids. When we start allowing Feats to work under conditions similar to their intended effect, then silly things can happen.
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I'm sorry, but I don't believe for a second that it is harder to drink an extract from a vial than it would be to drink some other liquid from the exact same vial. It's very unintuitive and extremely arbitrary, at best. Accelerated drinker allows you to drink a potion as a move action (under that certain circumstance) and you drink an extract "as if imbibing a potion".
I don't think Accelerated Drinker applies to extracts only to poitions so while you could qauff a potion of enlarge person for 50gp you can't with an extract.
Extracts are not potions although they seem very similiar.
Extracts say that you drink them exactly like potions, so I don't see why it wouldn't work. ... Please examine things a little more closely before you start calling foul and using false examples.No, I wouldn't allow it at, say, my Pathfinder Society table. Accelerated Drinker works for potions, period, not potion-like liquids. When we start allowing Feats to work under conditions similar to their intended effect, then silly things can happen.
So you drink them exactly like potions but you can't drink them exactly like you do a potion?
Check please.
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I don't think Accelerated Drinker applies to extracts only to poitions so while you could qauff a potion of enlarge person for 50gp you can't with an extract.
Extracts are not potions although they seem very similiar.
Extracts say that you drink them exactly like potions, so I don't see why it wouldn't work. ... Please examine things a little more closely before you start calling foul and using false examples.No, I wouldn't allow it at, say, my Pathfinder Society table. Accelerated Drinker works for potions, period, not potion-like liquids. When we start allowing Feats to work under conditions similar to their intended effect, then silly things can happen.
I would counter you on that ruling, since extracts and potions activate the exact same way. This is explicitly stated in the description of extracts.
An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion
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I would counter you on that ruling, since extracts and potions activate the exact same way. This is explicitly stated in the description of extracts.
An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion
I came in here to post just this quote. How, if an extract is cast as if drinking a potion, would it not fall into use with the trait? A potion is a liquid in a vial you consume. An extract is a liquid in a vial you consume. Seems pretty clear to me.
Forget the "realism" side of things for a moment and consider this for a balance perspective
traits are half feats
can anyone seriously say that a trait should be powerful enough to turn spellcasting any level 1-3 spell from a standard action into a move action ?
extracts are effectively as much spells as they are potions
equivalent example would be allowing a trait to let you cast fireball as a move action which is quite simply broken
the trait used on normal potion is balanced becuase it costs you money to drink potions, daily spells/extracts are effectively free, If you want extract to utilize this trait then I'd say it'll costs you gold to prepare those extracts, otherwise its just not balanced.
EDIT: actually this is probably an important enough question to have its own thread
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can anyone seriously say that a trait should be powerful enough to turn spellcasting any level 1-3 spell from a standard action into a move action ?extracts are effectively as much spells as they are potions
Um, thats EXACTLY what the trait lets you do. Potions are SPELLS in liquid form. Just because they cost money to make its ok that they work, but not extracts? That makes zero sense to me.
equivalent example would be allowing a trait to let you cast fireball as a move action which is quite simply broken
No, thats not an equivalent example at all. And there is a way to do that, make a potion of fireball and drink it using the trait. Sure it effects only you, but so do extracts and potions. And yeah it might not be the most effective thing, but its casting fireball as a move action never the less.
the trait used on normal potion is balanced becuase it costs you money to drink potions, daily spells/extracts are effectively free, If you want extract to utilize this trait then I'd say it'll costs you gold to prepare those extracts, otherwise its just not balanced.
This... makes no sense. As I said before, potions are SPELLS in liquid form. Why is it ok to use those with the trait just because they cost money? How is money the only difference in it being ok and overpowered?
One thing you are over looking is the fact that the trait says "you must have the potion in your hand at the start of your turn." That means you used a move action to pull it out on the PREVIOUS turn. So your taking 2 turns: one to pull it out, and the next turn to actually consume the potion/extract. How is that broken?
edit to put in the actually wording of the feat.
You may drink a potion as a move action instead of a standard action as long as you start your turn with the potion in your hand.
can anyone seriously say that a trait should be powerful enough to turn spellcasting any level 1-3 spell from a standard action into a move action ?extracts are effectively as much spells as they are potions
Um, thats EXACTLY what the trait lets you do. Potions are SPELLS in liquid form. Just because they cost money to make its ok that they work, but not extracts? That makes zero sense to me.
equivalent example would be allowing a trait to let you cast fireball as a move action which is quite simply broken
No, thats not an equivalent example at all. And there is a way to do that, make a potion of fireball and drink it using the trait. Sure it effects only you, but so do extracts and potions. And yeah it might not be the most effective thing, but its casting fireball as a move action never the less.
the trait used on normal potion is balanced becuase it costs you money to drink potions, daily spells/extracts are effectively free, If you want extract to utilize this trait then I'd say it'll costs you gold to prepare those extracts, otherwise its just not balanced.This... makes no sense. As I said before, potions are SPELLS in liquid form. Why is it ok to use those with the trait just because they cost money? How is money the only difference in it being ok and overpowered?
One thing you are over looking is the fact that the trait says "you must have the potion in your hand at the start of your turn." That means you used a move action to pull it out on the PREVIOUS turn. So your taking 2 turns: one to pull it out, and the next turn to actually consume the potion/extract. How is that broken?
edit to put in the actually wording of the feat.
You may drink a potion as a move action instead of a standard action as long as you start your turn with the potion in your hand.
thanks
I've made a new thread where you can discuss this , its not really on topic for this threadcheers