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Ah, yes, because "The players are immune to attack at night" is the typical Pathfinder experience.
Immune? No; Typical? No
Hey maybe it's a huge problem in your group. It isn't in any of mine. There are very very few night ambushes written into adventure paths either.
Obviously YMMV. In Pathfinder Society I've had more problems with anti-magic zones than late night ambushes so I guess the wizard is worse for PFS?
Ah, yes, because "The players are immune to attack at night" is the typical Pathfinder experience.Immune? No; Typical? No
Hey maybe it's a huge problem in your group. It isn't in any of mine. There are very very few night ambushes written into adventure paths either.
Obviously YMMV. In Pathfinder Society I've had more problems with anti-magic zones than late night ambushes so I guess the wizard is worse for PFS?
Anti-Magic zones work against Summoners too, you know. The Eidolon is a supernatural ability and is suppressed within an antimagic field, as are the Summoner's summon monster SLAs, etc, even if they enter the field from outside of it.
And no, I don't think being attacked at night in two out of three sessions, totalling more than 40 nights in game (this is our Kingmaker campaign), is atypical, unless not being attacked at all at night is typical.
"wealth by level" is only a guideline, not a rule. In my experience party wealth tends to skew depending on what treasure they find. Fighter types tend to find way more stuff they can use, and 3/4 BAB classes less so. The tendancy is for there to be at least one PC who has more magic items because they can make the best use of them. The only way it evens out is when the party goes to the big city to dump all the +1 longswords they have accumulated, granting the party a bunch of flat wealth divided between them.
As for summoners vs druids, are eidolons really weaker than animal companions? My feeling is that eidolons are given a lot more options, and while more options do not necessarily mean more POWERZ, they don't seem like they take a back seat to your average animal comp.
A summoner is also using summon monster rather than summon animal, which provides them with outsider versions of animals, often with some sightly niftier stuff like smites, DR, etc. Druids get elementals I guess.
hmmm, Is there anything that says a summoner can't have his SLAs and his Eidolon out with the Summon Eidolon spell?
"wealth by level" is only a guideline, not a rule. In my experience party wealth tends to skew depending on what treasure they find. Fighter types tend to find way more stuff they can use, and 3/4 BAB classes less so. The tendancy is for there to be at least one PC who has more magic items because they can make the best use of them. The only way it evens out is when the party goes to the big city to dump all the +1 longswords they have accumulated, granting the party a bunch of flat wealth divided between them.
As for summoners vs druids, are eidolons really weaker than animal companions? My feeling is that eidolons are given a lot more options, and while more options do not necessarily mean more POWERZ, they don't seem like they take a back seat to your average animal comp.
A summoner is also using summon monster rather than summon animal, which provides them with outsider versions of animals, often with some sightly niftier stuff like smites, DR, etc. Druids get elementals I guess.
hmmm, Is there anything that says a summoner can't have his SLAs and his Eidolon out with the Summon Eidolon spell?
Yes it specifically excludes using the SLA with the eidolon.
"wealth by level" is only a guideline, not a rule. In my experience party wealth tends to skew depending on what treasure they find. Fighter types tend to find way more stuff they can use, and 3/4 BAB classes less so. The tendancy is for there to be at least one PC who has more magic items because they can make the best use of them. The only way it evens out is when the party goes to the big city to dump all the +1 longswords they have accumulated, granting the party a bunch of flat wealth divided between them.
This i think strongly depends on the gm. I would be very annoyed if the dm had a dozen +1 longswords in the group that no one in the party could make use of and had a long period of time before we could turn that into useful items. For the most part, all of the dms in my group tailor the loot in our adventures in order to spread the wealth throughout the party. I think it is a strong sign of either a poor or lazy dm, if they just roll on random rewards charts and dont do anything to even out the treasure afterwards.
That said, wbl is definately a guideline, but allowing a single player to stray far from the rest of the group in wealth, is as irresponsible on the part of the dm as allowing in a house ruled feat or other option that makes a single player overpowered. You arent keeping things even in your game so everyone has their chance to shine. And in that sense you are failing at your duties to keep the game smooth and fun for all involved.
As for summoners vs druids, are eidolons really weaker than animal companions? My feeling is that eidolons are given a lot more options, and while more options do not necessarily mean more POWERZ, they don't seem like they take a back seat to your average animal comp.
Optimized eidolon vs optimized animal companion is pretty even. At higher levels the eidolon gains an edge, but only slight (this is based on a signficant playtest of the final playtest version of the summoner).
The issue is that it's much easier to optimize an eidolon then an animal companion. Some are clearly better (in terms of offense) then others, and if you pick different ones the animal companion will quickly fall behind. That said eidolon+summoner vs animal companion + druid is heavily in the druid's favor, especially in the APG version.
A summoner is also using summon monster rather than summon animal, which provides them with outsider versions of animals, often with some sightly niftier stuff like smites, DR, etc. Druids get elementals I guess.
This doesnt come into play untill higher levels, and at that point the druid's full casting makes a huge difference. But really WildShaped druid + animal companion + summoned animal is going to be far better then summoner + eidolon or summoner + summoned monsters. It went from a close bout that depended on tactics and optimization, to a route in the druid's favore in terms of head to head power.
But honestly, for me the biggest problem is the shift in the feel of the summoner/eidolon relationship. My current summoner no longer makes sense. The eidolon wasnt just another summon held in this world by the summoners will alone. He was a constance companion, called for and had come willingly to befriend and aid the summoner. With the new feel of the class this character makes alot less sense.
"wealth by level" is only a guideline, not a rule. In my experience party wealth tends to skew depending on what treasure they find. Fighter types tend to find way more stuff they can use, and 3/4 BAB classes less so. The tendancy is for there to be at least one PC who has more magic items because they can make the best use of them. The only way it evens out is when the party goes to the big city to dump all the +1 longswords they have accumulated, granting the party a bunch of flat wealth divided between them.
This i think strongly depends on the gm. I would be very annoyed if the dm had a dozen +1 longswords in the group that no one in the party could make use of and had a long period of time before we could turn that into useful items. For the most part, all of the dms in my group tailor the loot in our adventures in order to spread the wealth throughout the party. I think it is a strong sign of either a poor or lazy dm, if they just roll on random rewards charts and dont do anything to even out the treasure afterwards.
That said, wbl is definately a guideline, but allowing a single player to stray far from the rest of the group in wealth, is as irresponsible on the part of the dm as allowing in a house ruled feat or other option that makes a single player overpowered. You arent keeping things even in your game so everyone has their chance to shine. And in that sense you are failing at your duties to keep the game smooth and fun for all involved.
As for summoners vs druids, are eidolons really weaker than animal companions? My feeling is that eidolons are given a lot more options, and while more options do not necessarily mean more POWERZ, they don't seem like they take a back seat to your average animal comp.
Optimized eidolon vs optimized animal companion is pretty even. At higher levels the eidolon gains an edge, but only slight (this is based on a signficant playtest of the final playtest version of the summoner).
The issue is that...
Can't you have a summoned monster from the spell instead of the SLA?
Just wondering but if you have the SLA does that mean it is a spell on your spell list? Could you then use a scroll to use Summon Monster ix?
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Anti-Magic zones work against Summoners too, you know. The Eidolon is a supernatural ability and is suppressed within an antimagic field, as are the Summoner's summon monster SLAs, etc, even if they enter the field from outside of it.
Except the summoner isn't as squishy as the wizard in an AMF.
And no, I don't think being attacked at night in two out of three sessions, totalling more than 40 nights in game (this is our Kingmaker campaign), is atypical, unless not being attacked at all at night is typical.
Hmmm... I guess that sounds about right for kingmaker, we're playing kingmaker in a separate campaign and while you guys are going faster than we are there is a ton of camping and we've already had one night attack. Our longer running game is Rise of the Runelords and camping and night attacks are not nearly as common because the party has a fairly close home base.
Can't you have a summoned monster from the spell instead of the SLA?
Just wondering but if you have the SLA does that mean it is a spell on your spell list? Could you then use a scroll to use Summon Monster ix?
Yes, but you have significantly fewer resources than the druid to do so, and you need to take the summon monster spells on your spell list, since you do not get them for free. Honestly, there are better spells on the summoner's spell list, so I don't see him taking many of these.
Anti-Magic zones work against Summoners too, you know. The Eidolon is a supernatural ability and is suppressed within an antimagic field, as are the Summoner's summon monster SLAs, etc, even if they enter the field from outside of it.Except the summoner isn't as squishy as the wizard in an AMF.
Yay, he has 4 more AC and +1 hit point per level. Whoopty-freaking-do. He'll still not be able to hit anything and still be hit at will.
Yes, but you have significantly fewer resources than the druid to do so, and you need to take the summon monster spells on your spell list, since you do not get them for free. Honestly, there are better spells on the summoner's spell list, so I don't see him taking many of these.Can't you have a summoned monster from the spell instead of the SLA?
Just wondering but if you have the SLA does that mean it is a spell on your spell list? Could you then use a scroll to use Summon Monster ix?
So TO BE CLEAR, the summon eidolon 2nd level spell, CAN NOT be cast while the summoner is using his SLA summoned monsters?
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Yay, he has 4 more AC and +1 hit point per level. Whoopty-freaking-do. He'll still not be able to hit anything and still be hit at will.Anti-Magic zones work against Summoners too, you know. The Eidolon is a supernatural ability and is suppressed within an antimagic field, as are the Summoner's summon monster SLAs, etc, even if they enter the field from outside of it.Except the summoner isn't as squishy as the wizard in an AMF.
Summoner doesn't need to boost his CHA nearly as much as the wizard needs to focus on INT so he can bump strength, dexterity or constitution. The summoner has a BAB advantage, armor advantage, weapon advantage, and ability score advantage on the wizard. He also can invest in combat feats and be decent in combat. Summoner is more or less equivalent to the bard in combat. Not great but can be decent and a lot better than the wizard.
Heck, a summoner can get away with a 13 CHA at 1st level and still pick up all his spells which leaves a lot of points for bumping strength and dexterity.
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Yes it specifically excludes using the SLA with the eidolon.
I would almost tend to disagree here...but I can't quite say 100% either way because it's worded a bit odd.
The quote from the book says "Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned."
Now, the first sentence makes it sound like "only when called", which I would say is the class feature, not the spell.
But the second sentence makes it sound more like "anytime the eidolon is summoned", which would negate it.
My hope is that it is the former, allowing you to use the summon eidolon spell like the summon monster spell...if not...well, the spell has gone ever closer to the line of useless in my opinion.
... Summoner is more or less equivalent to the bard in combat....
Not true. The bard gets +1 to hit and damage every time he loses 1 BAB from his 3/4 casting. The summoner gets no such thing.
Summoner doesn't need to boost his CHA nearly as much as the wizard needs to focus on INT so he can bump strength, dexterity or constitution. The summoner has a BAB advantage, armor advantage, weapon advantage, and ability score advantage on the wizard. He also can invest in combat feats and be decent in combat. Summoner is more or less equivalent to the bard in combat. Not great but can be decent and a lot better than the wizard.Yay, he has 4 more AC and +1 hit point per level. Whoopty-freaking-do. He'll still not be able to hit anything and still be hit at will.Anti-Magic zones work against Summoners too, you know. The Eidolon is a supernatural ability and is suppressed within an antimagic field, as are the Summoner's summon monster SLAs, etc, even if they enter the field from outside of it.Except the summoner isn't as squishy as the wizard in an AMF.
Not in an anti-magic field he can't. Even Fighters struggle in AMFs. All the Summoner's buffs vanish, all of his magic gear reverts to masterwork, etc. If a Fighter struggles to hit and not be hit, a Summoner is utterly lost at them.
This i think strongly depends on the gm. I would be very annoyed if the dm had a dozen +1 longswords in the group that no one in the party could make use of and had a long period of time before we could turn that into useful items. For the most part, all of the dms in my group tailor the loot in our adventures in order to spread the wealth throughout the party. I think it is a strong sign of either a poor or lazy dm, if they just roll on random rewards charts and dont do anything to even out the treasure afterwards.
I completely disagree and further, I take umbrage at being labeled a poor DM because I don't coddle my players or skew the world so that it becomes all about the four heroes.
In my world, the bad guys have the items that are appropriate for the bad guys. I won't have a hobgoblin war-master running around with a Metamagic Rod of Empower just because I think our PC wizard hasn't gotten much loot lately. No, that war-master will have a magical glaive. Too bad if nobody in the party actually wants to use a glaive - the hobgoblin really didn't take the PCs' preferences into consideration when he equipped himself.
When it comes to a dragon hoard, or other treasure laying around loose and unused in some monter's lair, then I might be more lenient. Sometimes I deliberately put something there that I think a specific PC in the player group actually needs or deserves. Other times, I prefer to go with Verisimilitude (tm) and put items there that nobody really wants. So the owlbear killed some dude with a weird magic item. Ultimately, that's just something for the party to sell. Or return to the guy's widow. Or whatever.
It's a strange, strange world indeed if everything the heroes find is exactly what they need the most. Yeah, maybe some DMs want their world to work exactly like that. Maybe somehow the "fates" or the gods are looking out for the intrepid heroes. Whatever. More power to them.
And I certainly don't discredit those DMs for their DMing style, nor will I label them as either poor or lazy. It's just one style of play.
My play style is different. My game world doesn't cater to the heroes and serve them up the perfect party-centric treasure hoards on a silver platter. And my players don't find that to be a problem at all. Nor have I been accused of being a poor or lazy DM by any player who's sat at my table.
I would suggest that casting about such labels on play-styles that are different than yours might be a bit premature.
Yes it specifically excludes using the SLA with the eidolon.I would almost tend to disagree here...but I can't quite say 100% either way because it's worded a bit odd.
The quote from the book says "Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned."
Now, the first sentence makes it sound like "only when called", which I would say is the class feature, not the spell.
But the second sentence makes it sound more like "anytime the eidolon is summoned", which would negate it.
My hope is that it is the former, allowing you to use the summon eidolon spell like the summon monster spell...if not...well, the spell has gone ever closer to the line of useless in my opinion.
To me, it sounds like the intent is that you can't have two eidolons at the same time, which is fair. I am not so sure about SLA Summons. Does it say in the SLA summons that the Eidolon and the SLAs come from the same source, or that having the class feature-eidolon out makes its too difficult to use the SLAs?
Argue DM styles in another thread ok?
[jk]This is for people to cry about the Summoner getting beaten with the nerf bat until it dispelled. [/jk]
To me, it sounds like the intent is that you can't have two eidolons at the same time, which is fair.
He's not quoting the summon eidolon spell, he's quoting the summon monster spell-like ability. According to that text, if you have your Eidolon out in any fashion, you cannot use your SLA.
I completely disagree and further, I take umbrage at being labeled a poor DM because I don't coddle my players or skew the world so that it becomes all about the four heroes.
In my world, the bad guys have the items that are appropriate for the bad guys. I won't have a hobgoblin war-master running around with a Metamagic Rod of Empower just because I think our PC wizard hasn't gotten much loot lately. No, that war-master will have a magical glaive. Too bad if nobody in the party actually wants to use a glaive - the hobgoblin really didn't take the PCs' preferences into consideration when he equipped himself.
When it comes to a dragon hoard, or other treasure laying around loose and unused in some monter's lair, then I might be more lenient. Sometimes I deliberately put something there that I think a specific PC in the player group actually needs or deserves. Other times, I prefer to go with Verisimilitude (tm) and put items there that nobody really wants. So the owlbear killed some dude with a weird magic item. Ultimately, that's just something for the party to sell. Or return to the guy's widow. Or whatever.
It's a strange, strange world indeed if everything the heroes find is exactly what they need the most. Yeah, maybe some DMs want their world to work exactly like that. Maybe somehow the "fates" or the gods are looking out for the intrepid heroes. Whatever. More power to them.
And I certainly don't discredit those DMs for their DMing style, nor will I label them as either poor or lazy. It's just one style of play.
My play style is different. My game world doesn't cater to the heroes and serve them up the perfect party-centric treasure hoards on a silver platter. And my players don't find that to be a problem at all. Nor have I been accused of being a poor or lazy DM by any player who's sat at my table.
I would suggest that casting about such labels on play-styles that are different than yours might be a bit premature.
I didnt say everything they find should be what they want. Nor did I say treasure must be tailored. What I said is, if you dont make an effort to keep it even among the players, or give the players a mechanism to make it even, you are not doing your job. This includes tailoring treasure to the party. But it also includes giving them an opportunity to sell it and then buy, craft or have crafted items that are useful to the whole party. If you do neither of these things you are giving one player significantly more power then the rest.
I am not saying you need to serve them items on a silver platter, just that whatever your treatment of loot, it should come out even for all and not favor one or two players at your table.
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To me, it sounds like the intent is that you can't have two eidolons at the same time, which is fair. I am not so sure about SLA Summons. Does it say in the SLA summons that the Eidolon and the SLAs come from the same source, or that having the class feature-eidolon out makes its too difficult to use the SLAs?
Wait, we can't have two eidolons at the same time!!!! WTF?!?!?
Nah, just kidding. Never had it, darn glad we don't.
But the quote I had in there starting "Drawing upon this ability" is the quote I think you are asking about having SLA monsters and the eidolon out. That quote makes the following clear if read as written:
- * SLA summons can only be used if eidolon is not out ("called" or "summoned" eidolon)
* If eidolon comes out, SLAs vanish (inferred, but I don't see why this would be wrong)
* Eidolon and spell-cast summoned monsters CAN be out at same time
However, given the way the summon monster spell works with an eidolon and the "called" reference in the quote, I think the second point above is left unclear (in spririt, if not RAW).
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Not in an anti-magic field he can't. Even Fighters struggle in AMFs. All the Summoner's buffs vanish, all of his magic gear reverts to masterwork, etc. If a Fighter struggles to hit and not be hit, a Summoner is utterly lost at them.
In an AMF:
If fighter: Suck
Else: You Die
You are presenting a false dichotomy. Everything I mentioned is still true in an AMF, summoners still have higher stats, etc.
Not true. The bard gets +1 to hit and damage every time he loses 1 BAB from his 3/4 casting. The summoner gets no such thing.Really how?
I believe that is referring to inspire courage.
Not in an anti-magic field he can't. Even Fighters struggle in AMFs. All the Summoner's buffs vanish, all of his magic gear reverts to masterwork, etc. If a Fighter struggles to hit and not be hit, a Summoner is utterly lost at them.In an AMF:
If fighter: Suck
Else: You DieYou are presenting a false dichotomy.
No, actually, that's you trying to force words down my throat. I never said "Everyone except fighters die in an AMF". I said Fighters struggle in AMFs and Summoners are considerably less capable than Fighters, thus Summoners really aren't at all capable in an AMF. Please don't lie about what I've written.
Everything I mentioned is still true in an AMF, summoners still have higher stats, etc.
And everything I've written is also true: without class features, buffs, and magic equipment, the Summoner is still just as boned as a Wizard in an AMF. Sure, he may have slightly higher Strength or Dexterity, and he'll have 4 more AC and a couple higher BAB, compared to a Wizard, but those don't matter against anything that's actually going to be using an AMF against you. The Summoner's strength and reason to exist is his magical abilities, and an AMF takes that away from his just as surely as it does a Wizard. Saying otherwise is being intentionally obtuse.
And everything I've written is also true: without class features, buffs, and magic equipment, the Summoner is still just as boned as a Wizard in an AMF.
Not true, he is on par with the bard, not the wizard. He has better BAB then the wizard, better armor then the wizard, Better weapons then the wizard and more HP then the wizard.
Ya know he is just like a bard and just a bit behind the cleric in AC in an AMF, which is way better then a wizard.
And everything I've written is also true: without class features, buffs, and magic equipment, the Summoner is still just as boned as a Wizard in an AMF.
Not true, he is on par with the bard, not the wizard. He has better BAB then the wizard, better armor then the wizard, Better weapons then the wizard and more HP then the wizard.
Ya know he is just like a bard and just a bit behind the cleric in AC in an AMF, which is way better then a wizard.
OK, I'm clearly not communicating well. What I'm saying is that a Wizard is unable to perform any useful role in an AMF. When I then say that a Summoner is just as boned as a Wizard in an AMF, I'm saying that the Summoner also is unable to perform any useful role in an AMF. I'm not saying he doesn't have higher BAB, AC, and physical stats -- obviously, since I explicitly said he does -- but rather that they don't actually get him anywhere.
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If Summoners' got all the summon monster spells...
No, spell like abilities do not let you activate spell completion items.
Well, on our spell list is SM 1, 2, 4, 5, 7...and 4....(an error, so either 8 or 9.
But, under the SLA, it does say: These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. So yeah, summoners can activate wands, scrolls, etc.
The SLA summons come at odd levels so we have SM IX by 17, Gate at 19.
Also, someone mentioned the sacrifice of a slot to cast a Summon Monster (similar to CLW for a Cleric), like I think the first playtest had....nope, that's still out. It would have been nice/convenient, but given the SLA, I don't see it as being an issue.
Can't you have a summoned monster from the spell instead of the SLA?
If Summoners' got all the summon monster spells on their abbreviated list (not sure what the list is.. has it reverted completely back to what it started out as?) then you could take a spell known and use slots to summon.
As the last version before the release had summoners with summon monster X as a level X summoner spell well then you're talking about say a 13th level summoner summoning something from the summon monster 5 list with his top spell while a wizard is summoning from two lists higher (or 1d4+1 of what the summoner gets).
Summon spells are all about the top level summon spell. As the summoner was given bard casting tables this doesn't work.
Just wondering but if you have the SLA does that mean it is a spell on your spell list? Could you then use a scroll to use Summon Monster ix?
No, spell like abilities do not let you activate spell completion items.
I wouldn't mind the summoner class curtailing the eidolon a bit, give more structure to how you could build them. For example instead of one pool of points have groups of points that you can spend from, perhaps allowing any points to go into a lower tier group of abilities, etc.
But I really don't like that there are 1001 exceptions and special rules for the Summoner and at the end of the day a druid is a far better summoner than the Summoner.
-James
Yeah, that appears to be the case. It's too bad their summoning ability is so limited, almost a little ironic.
And everything I've written is also true: without class features, buffs, and magic equipment, the Summoner is still just as boned as a Wizard in an AMF.
Not true, he is on par with the bard, not the wizard. He has better BAB then the wizard, better armor then the wizard, Better weapons then the wizard and more HP then the wizard.
Ya know he is just like a bard and just a bit behind the cleric in AC in an AMF, which is way better then a wizard.
I would definately give you that the bab armor and 1hp per level help, but all things considered, if something is ABLE to create an antimagic field, is the summoner really going to be ok without spells or summons against it? Its like hitting a twig with a sledge hammer, and then hitting a window with a sledge hammer. Sure the window puts up somewhat more resistance, but the end results is the same.
If Summoners' got all the summon monster spells...
No, spell like abilities do not let you activate spell completion items.
Well, on our spell list is SM 1, 2, 4, 5, 7...and 4....(an error, so either 8 or 9.
But, under the SLA, it does say: These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. So yeah, summoners can activate wands, scrolls, etc.
The SLA summons come at odd levels so we have SM IX by 17, Gate at 19.
Also, someone mentioned the sacrifice of a slot to cast a Summon Monster (similar to CLW for a Cleric), like I think the first playtest had....nope, that's still out. It would have been nice/convenient, but given the SLA, I don't see it as being an issue.
Ooo i just looked further and saw the same thing. So a summoner could have his eidolon out and use a scroll of summon monster ix but it would be restricted to 1 round/level.
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Sure, he may have slightly higher Strength or Dexterity, and he'll have 4 more AC and a couple higher BAB, compared to a Wizard, but those don't matter against anything that's actually going to be using an AMF against you. The Summoner's strength and reason to exist is his magical abilities, and an AMF takes that away from his just as surely as it does a Wizard. Saying otherwise is being intentionally obtuse.
Adventures aren't limited to the scope of your imagination.
Your assumption is that most (all?) AMFs are part of a deliberate attack by an intelligent foe who is exploiting a weakness. I've actually seen it more often as an environmental condition. Maybe you should browse through Legacy of Fire #22 which includes several encounters in an AMF also, check out Josh Frost's PFS modules there is one in the mana wastes where there are some encounters in a large AMF effect. In either scenario the summoner would be a help as opposed to the wizard who is reduced to spending the encounters running away or dying. And yes, in both adventures the summoner could hit the creatures in question without being buffed.
Yeah, that appears to be the case. It's too bad their summoning ability is so limited, almost a little ironic.Yes. I like the summoner class but the name... ugh.
I can't even think of a name that would work...Planar Artificer since he piecemeals an outsider together?
Did anyone noticed that the Metal Link between the 2 is gone. I cant seem to find it at all. So the summoner now has to talk to his Eidolon.
Note*I am not crying or complaining about this (tho it was very sweet) but just wanted to know if anyone else noticed this.
No as far as I can tell they still share a mental link..
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Thanks for all the info guys. I think im gonna stick with the summoner and see what i can do with it Sunday was our first session and i wont have the new book for a long time it seems lol. Also are there any new feats in the book designed for summoner?
One, and it f%%#ing sucks. Summoner's Call. For a feat, you get +2 to Str or Dex or Con. But oh wait...it only last ten minutes after you summon your f$@@ing eidolon.
I'm guessing people should just shush and play a conjuration focused wizard.
Honestly. If its that much of an issue to play a summoner.
Since when did having a class that could "create" Frankenstein’s monster become such an intrinsic part of anyone’s D&D experience?
Just ignore the class, it was a pants idea in the first place, bit like the Cavalier, that's too much like the Knight from 3.5 which was so boring it made me fall asleeeeeeeeeeee......>dribble<
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I mentioned it before, and did not see a response, so I'll give it another shot..
I do not mind the item sharing. What is unclear is if your eidolon has an item when he gets sent back (for any reason) he keeps it, or it falls to the ground. The reason I bring this up, is that it could suck if the items he held drop, and you are in a location that you cannot retrieve them. If you are limiting me ny making me share slots, then potentially taking items away if I am rendered unc'ed or slept or killed, that would really suck.
Also from reading this, and tell me if I am wrong, you cannot use the summon Eidolon spell (not ability)if you have SLA summoned monsters out, but if your Eidolon is active by the ability, not the spell, you can use summon monster spells (not SLA)? It is probably clear once I get the book, but that may be in a week or 2 (when my FLGS gets it in)and I am just curious.
Also, is the new spell list available anywhere but the book? I'm definately looking forward to getting it, but we are starting the Hook Mountain Massacre on Sunday, and am anxious to see it.
Yhanks guys, this is great reading!!
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What is unclear is if your eidolon has an item when he gets sent back (for any reason) he keeps it, or it falls to the ground. The reason I bring this up, is that it could suck if the items he held drop, and you are in a location that you cannot retrieve them. If you are limiting me by making me share slots, then potentially taking items away if I am rendered unc'ed or slept or killed, that would really suck.
Great point, I hope we do get an official answer on this one!
Also from reading this, and tell me if I am wrong, you cannot use the summon Eidolon spell (not ability)if you have SLA summoned monsters out, but if your Eidolon is active by the ability, not the spell, you can use summon monster spells (not SLA)? It is probably clear once I get the book
This is another point which I have also asked for official clarification on -- because by the RAW, I would say if the Eidolon is out at all, no SLA can be out, but I'm not sure this is what the "spirit" of it is supposed to be (i.e. if you Summon the eidolon by the spell, you can use SLA, but not if you "call" your eidolon)
Also from reading this, and tell me if I am wrong, you cannot use the summon Eidolon spell (not ability)if you have SLA summoned monsters out, but if your Eidolon is active by the ability, not the spell, you can use summon monster spells (not SLA)? It is probably clear once I get the bookThis is another point which I have also asked for official clarification on -- because by the RAW, I would say if the Eidolon is out at all, no SLA can be out, but I'm not sure this is what the "spirit" of it is supposed to be (i.e. if you Summon the eidolon by the spell, you can use SLA, but not if you "call" your eidolon)
I am willing to bet its going to be that summon eidolon cannot be used with SLAs. Summon eidolon has minutes duration, as do he SLAs (if that wasn't changed). This basically recreates the "problem" with the summoner being too much of a one-man-army for too much of the combat. Since the summon monster spell chain is rounds per level, I am guessing that is how they prefer the summoner to be throwing 4+ pokeballs out at a time.
What this seems like to me is making the summoner focus on a particular style of the class. Some summoners will want to be the guy with umpteen monsters around the field, acting as their battlefield commander. Others will focus on just the eidolon and buffing spells to make that work. The summoner just can't do both as easily as before.
Also from reading this, and tell me if I am wrong, you cannot use the summon Eidolon spell (not ability)if you have SLA summoned monsters out, but if your Eidolon is active by the ability, not the spell, you can use summon monster spells (not SLA)? It is probably clear once I get the bookThis is another point which I have also asked for official clarification on -- because by the RAW, I would say if the Eidolon is out at all, no SLA can be out, but I'm not sure this is what the "spirit" of it is supposed to be (i.e. if you Summon the eidolon by the spell, you can use SLA, but not if you "call" your eidolon)I am willing to bet its going to be that summon eidolon cannot be used with SLAs. Summon eidolon has minutes duration, as do he SLAs (if that wasn't changed). This basically recreates the "problem" with the summoner being too much of a one-man-army for too much of the combat. Since the summon monster spell chain is rounds per level, I am guessing that is how they prefer the summoner to be throwing 4+ pokeballs out at a time.
What this seems like to me is making the summoner focus on a particular style of the class. Some summoners will want to be the guy with umpteen monsters around the field, acting as their battlefield commander. Others will focus on just the eidolon and buffing spells to make that work. The summoner just can't do both as easily as before.
Except the summoner can't have many monsters out at once, even with the SLA. Its limmitted to 1 SLA at a time, so they will allways choose the significantly better eidolon over it.
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Except the summoner can't have many monsters out at once, even with the SLA. Its limmitted to 1 SLA at a time, so they will allways choose the significantly better eidolon over it.
Well, you can use a level lower than your highest to get 2-5 monsters out there, and you could cast the spell to get another 1-5 as well.