roll a different class summoner is dead.
If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.
think about every time you sleep, or go unconscious the party will lose a 99% of what a summoner is. and it will take 1 minute to bring him back.
Not quite constructive.
Do you want to know what else loses 99% of what a class is when they are asleep?
Fighters. Barbarians. Bards. Clerics. Rogues(Unless they have light sleeper). Monks. Oracles. Paladins. Inquisitors(Unless animal domain). Alchemists.
All I can say. Is suck it up on that issue. Now. Info from the APG? Wow man. Give me a moment. They were nerfed obviously, but more obviously, it was needed. But they were not nerfed into unusability. I mean, spells+Spell-like ability+Eidolen. Sounds pretty bloody useful regardless. But, I could be wrong, but I really doubt I am on this issue. Give me a moment to write up the stuff I think you'd need to worry about. Or, better yet.
Tell us about your summoner. Level.. and all that. And spells, evolutions. The nitty gritty and all.
I believe you can no longer use your summon monster ability while the eidolon is out and about
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Wow... a little melodramatic?
I don't have the book but here is what I know:
Wow... a little melodramatic?
I don't have the book but here is what I know:
You can either have your Eidolon or use your Summoning SLA not both at the same time.
Summoning takes 1 minute but you can summon as many times/ day as you want.
Summoners get early entry on many spells, haste, dimension door, black tentacles.
Eidolon cannot stick around when the summoner is asleep or unconscious.
Correct.
As I said in the other thread losing the Eidolon when the Summoner is asleep/unconscious seems like a little much. But, the more I thought about it, it is made up for by the standard action SLA and the Summon Eidolon spell at second level.
Parties caught camped with only one or (maybe) two members awake are always at a disadvantage. Warrior types may not always be in their armor, and casters lack spells from the previous day. They may also have damage that has not been healed yet due to lack of spells/rest. per day based abilities are also slightly diminish.
I guess the vulnerability I see with the Eidolon vanish is sleep spells and effects can be used to deal with the Eidolon indirectly. But, this may only be a huge problem at lower levels.
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my main problem with this is my GM will now rush all creatures at the summoner and never fight the Eidolon. once the summoner goes unconscious poof Eidolon is gone for rest of fight. in our group the eidolon is the fighter we don't have a fighter so when we rest and get ambushed, we will not have the eidolon"fighter" for that fight.
And that is why there is the Summon Eidolon spell.
As for your GM, well, that just sounds like a bad GM, I'm sorry. Granted, intelligent enemies, especially enemy Summoners ought to team up on the Summoner as he he is a heck of a good target, but that pack of wolves? They would be attacking that monstrosity in front of them, if they aren't running away with their tail in between their legs. Ditto with that raiding party of crazy goblins and psychotic, murderous orcs that don't know a Halfling from a Gnome.
And that is why there is the Summon Eidolon spell.
You mean the spell that isn't available until 4th level, costs a very precious spell known (which would otherwise be filled with a buff, such as, for example, haste, which would likely benefit the entire party), and aside from its use for compensating for the nerf, is almost entirely worthless?
You're also forgetting that Summoners literally have a giant neon sign on their forehead. They really do scream, "Hey, I'm a squishie, come kill me!".
I'll have to echo AlanM's comments above. Its not as though Summoner's are helpless without their Eidolon...they just shine when its out.
I'll take Summoner's with the enhanced spell lists over SLA Summon Monster being able to coexist with Eidolon being summoned and such any day.
I didn't even know about the Summon Eidolon spell as yet, so that makes it even better.
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And that is why there is the Summon Eidolon spell.You mean the spell that isn't available until 4th level, costs a very precious spell known (which would otherwise be filled with a buff, such as, for example, haste, which would likely benefit the entire party), and aside from its use for compensating for the nerf, is almost entirely worthless?
Still waiting for someone to suggest getting a wand or scroll, thus using up more of the money a Summoner could be using to protect himself or his Eidolon. Or even use to heal the rest of the party with Cure Light Wands!
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my main problem with this is my GM will now rush all creatures at the summoner and never fight the Eidolon. once the summoner goes unconscious poof Eidolon is gone for rest of fight. in our group the eidolon is the fighter we don't have a fighter so when we rest and get ambushed, we will not have the eidolon"fighter" for that fight.
I dunno... when I GM, I take the enemy into account before aiming straight at the party's weakest point. Most people are gonna figure the big, ugly, nasty looking thing slobbering all over them from a toothy maw is probably the threat while the wimpy looking guy behind him will be easy to deal with AFTER. I can't imagine anything with animal-like intelligence figuring otherwise.
A smart opponent will know its probably easier to whack the Summoner... but they'd also know how to deal with most PC's and their abilities and the best routes around them.
I hope your GM is roleplaying as much as he wants you to. If he's got every dumb-as-wood NPC, mindless undead and vermin bee-lining for the summoner, there is a problem... but its not with the summoner.
You're also forgetting that Summoners literally have a giant neon sign on their forehead. They really do scream, "Hey, I'm a squishie, come kill me!".
I don't see this...care to explain? They certainly look less squishy than a Sorcerer or Wizard. They look about as squishy as an Oracle (i.e. not that squishy). And if the DM of a game always targets the Summoner when they don't have their Eidolon, then that sounds like a game where the GM/DM is metagaming the monsters. Light armor is still Light armor. In fact, IMO that wouldn't make them any squishier than a Rogue.
Or am I missing something?
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And that is why there is the Summon Eidolon spell.You mean the spell that isn't available until 4th level, costs a very precious spell known (which would otherwise be filled with a buff, such as, for example, haste, which would likely benefit the entire party), and aside from its use for compensating for the nerf, is almost entirely worthless?
You're also forgetting that Summoners literally have a giant neon sign on their forehead. They really do scream, "Hey, I'm a squishie, come kill me!".
Except they are not 'squishie'. They have armor, 3/4 BAB, access to weapons, and a great spell list they can use for defense. Including early entry to some of the best arcane spells in the game.
If you are really worried about the summoner being targeted you can use your feats and money on defense for the summoner. Personally I think it's a waste.
Summoner is far less vulnerable than the party wizard or sorcerer.
You're also forgetting that Summoners literally have a giant neon sign on their forehead.
Wear a Headband/Hat?
Except they are not 'squishie'. They have armor, 3/4 BAB, access to weapons, and a great spell list they can use for defense.
Their defenses are no better than a sorcerer or wizard because they have to split magic items with their Eidolon. So, if the Summoner isn't squishy, his Eidolon is.
Including early entry to some of the best arcane spells in the game.
1 level early, at most. Not worth losing your primary class feature every single night and every time you're dropped to -1 or fewer HP.
NOTE: Diehard just became an actual useful feat for Summoners.
I don't see this...care to explain?
Both the Summoner and the Eidolon have a glowing sigil on their forehead. As for being squishy, see above.
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Or am I missing something?
If your confusion is stemming from his references to a "giant flashing neon sign" on their foreheads, that been around since the Summoner first came out. They have a symbol on their head that's visible when the Eidolon is out and about, and the Eidolon has one too.
Ninja'd by Zurai.
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Or am I missing something?
You're missing the passion for the class, I guess. Not meaning that in a negative way... but for those who got attached to the class the way it was, the changes can be disconcerting.
I have a barometer in my own gaming group that I've trusted for coming on 25 years. We call him Kevin (and several less friendly things, as well). Kevin is a min-maxing, power-gaming, super munchkin beyond all compare. He is also an excellent roleplayer - able to make the most believably non-human.. umm... non-humans. To this day, his Obsidiman in my Earthdawn game is one of my favorite PC's of all time.
If he is immediately drawn toward something in a game, I can just assume there is some method to his madness. It never fails. And he was immediately drawn to the Summoner for a game I'll be running next month. I told all my players that they're welcome to plan on an APG class but they'd have to play the final version... no debates or complaints. When he heard about the planned nerf, he said, "Maybe I'll make a druid." As the planned nerf became more and more a fact, he was almost certainly making a druid. Now that the APG is out, its like, "Summoner who?" He even bought a set of druid Nature Summoning cards...
Now I just have to figure out what about the Druid he will be exploiting...
No, I realize that the Summoner (only while calling their Eidolon) gains a glowing rune on their forehead...which can be concealed by being Invisible (unless the APG changed that).
Either way, by saying that a Summoner becomes squishy if they don't split their magic items with their Eidolon makes that statement true for Rangers and Druids as well...and doesn't splitting items to familiars make Wizards even still more squishy? For the argument to be true for one, it must be true for the others.
Besides, if you are ambushed in your sleep, the Summoner could always draw on their magic, medium BAB, light armor and weaponry to fight. And use their Summon Monster ability as well. Granted, its not an Eidolon, but it still is more than viable as a tactic instead of spending 10 rounds invisibly summoning your Eidolon. Most combats aren't going to last 10 rounds until high levels anyway, or if your fighting a horde of CR 1/3 monsters.
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No, I realize that the Summoner (only while calling their Eidolon) gains a glowing rune on their forehead...which can be concealed by being Invisible (unless the APG changed that).
Don't try going invisible at night or in a dark place, that light may very well give away your current location...
Put a hat on instead.
Either way, by saying that a Summoner becomes squishy if they don't split their magic items with their Eidolon makes that statement true for Rangers and Druids as well...and doesn't splitting items to familiars make Wizards even still more squishy? For the argument to be true for one, it must be true for the others.
Incorrect. Summoners MUST split their magic items with their Eidolon. If both the Summoner and the Eidolon have a magic item in the same slot, only the Summoner's works. This is not true for Druids, Rangers, Paladins, or any other class in the game with a companion, familiar, mount, or cohort.
I realize a lot of folks are getting very worked up about this, so I'll leave my thoughts at this for now.
Before some of these changes, the Summoner was awesome when their Eidolon was already on the field and subpar without it. Now that the spell list has been adjusted, Paizo has kindly balanced the class a good bit.
Now (if you are ambushed without the time to summon your Eidolon), you can contribute meaningfully to the fight with Summoned Monsters and spells (especially with the expanded/revised spell lists).
YMMV, of course, but those are my thoughts. To me it seems like a good revision of a class that was a one-trick pony by giving them a bit more versatility instead.
Incorrect. Summoners MUST split their magic items with their Eidolon. If both the Summoner and the Eidolon have a magic item in the same slot, only the Summoner's works. This is not true for Druids, Rangers, Paladins, or any other class in the game with a companion, familiar, mount, or cohort.
Ah, I haven't played a Summoner yet, so yes, I didn't realize this and I stand corrected. That does make it a bit different then. I'll do a bit more research on this part of the Summoner class features when I've seen the final version.
It does bear mentioning though, that with Wealth by level guidelines and all being what they are, a Druid (for example) and a Summoner in the same party should have the same (or nearly so) value of magical items. Splitting this towards their animal companion or Eidolon is purely voluntary (some will insist mandatory, which is fine), but either way its the same degree of wealth.
Just because you and your Eidolon can't both wear bracers of armor (if that is how this restriction works), doesn't seem terrible. It is an extra restriction that other classes with companions don't have however.
It does bear mentioning though, that with Wealth by level guidelines and all being what they are, a Druid (for example) and a Summoner in the same party should have the same (or nearly so) value of magical items. Splitting this towards their animal companion or Eidolon is purely voluntary (some will insist mandatory, which is fine), but either way its the same degree of wealth.
Just because you and your Eidolon can't both wear bracers of armor (if that is how this restriction works), doesn't seem terrible. It is an extra restriction that other classes with companions don't have however.
Honestly I think the big hurt is the belt slot. Pathfinder made it so that you can only get physical ability bonuses in that one slot. This means your Summoner can never get a Con belt (considered a must-have item for all casters in my group's games) if the Eidolon has any physical stat booster.
Played a 14th level Summoner before the APG final changes. He was awesome.
Played a 14th level Summoner last night for the first time updated to the new rules--guess what? HE WAS STILL AWESOME.
Folks should likely take some time to, you know, play a summoner before jumping a big heap o' melodramatic conclusions. :-)
Most companions already have the restriction of not being able to use several of the magic items due to lack of appropriate limbs
Thats a very good point as well Kevin. And something I think lots of folks overlook, I know I did.
And the thread is saved by Josh reminding us, that before you worry, play it first. Personally, as I said above, I like the new summoner, just from what I've heard. I haven't even seen the APG yet.
Most companions already have the restriction of not being able to use several of the magic items due to lack of appropriate limbs
It is an extra restriction that other classes with companions don't have however.
Um, then you have a opposable thumb dude put the belt, hat, or bracers on the animal/creature. Problem solved.
BTW, which magic items are you referring to?
Most companions already have the restriction of not being able to use several of the magic items due to lack of appropriate limbs
It is an extra restriction that other classes with companions don't have however.
No, actually, they don't. Hooved animals lose ring slot items. That's ... pretty much it.
It does bear mentioning though, that with Wealth by level guidelines and all being what they are, a Druid (for example) and a Summoner in the same party should have the same (or nearly so) value of magical items. Splitting this towards their animal companion or Eidolon is purely voluntary (some will insist mandatory, which is fine), but either way its the same degree of wealth.
And this is precisely why this particular "feature" (it was introduced in the final playtest, so I can't call it a change any more) was completely un-needed. The Summoner is already restricted by his available wealth; he doesn't need an additional, artificial, nonsensical from either a mechanical or an in character standpoint, restriction.
And I disagree with Rogue Eidolon; the belt isn't the big slot, it's the cloak that really sucks. Unless you use Magic Item Compendium or allow custom magic items, either you or your Eidolon will not have access to an item of resistance, because by default in the Core Rulebook, only cloaks can have resistance bonuses to saves. That means one or the other of you is going to have seriously sub-par saving throws. This is exacerbated by the fact that the Eidolon is vulnerable to banishment and dismissal, so it NEEDS high saving throws. On the other hand, if you give that item to the Eidolon, now your Summoner has pitiful Reflex and Fortitude saves (especially if you've also given the belt slot to the Eidolon).
Most companions already have the restriction of not being able to use several of the magic items due to lack of appropriate limbs
It is an extra restriction that other classes with companions don't have however.No, actually, they don't. Hooved animals lose ring slot items. That's ... pretty much it.
It does bear mentioning though, that with Wealth by level guidelines and all being what they are, a Druid (for example) and a Summoner in the same party should have the same (or nearly so) value of magical items. Splitting this towards their animal companion or Eidolon is purely voluntary (some will insist mandatory, which is fine), but either way its the same degree of wealth.And this is precisely why this particular "feature" (it was introduced in the final playtest, so I can't call it a change any more) was completely un-needed. The Summoner is already restricted by his available wealth; he doesn't need an additional, artificial, nonsensical from either a mechanical or an in character standpoint, restriction.
And I disagree with Rogue Eidolon; the belt isn't the big slot, it's the cloak that really sucks. Unless you use Magic Item Compendium or allow custom magic items, either you or your Eidolon will not have access to an item of resistance, because by default in the Core Rulebook, only cloaks can have resistance bonuses to saves. That means one or the other of you is going to have seriously sub-par saving throws. This is exacerbated by the fact that the Eidolon is vulnerable to banishment and dismissal, so it NEEDS high saving throws. On the other hand, if you give that item to the Eidolon, now your Summoner has pitiful Reflex and Fortitude saves (especially if you've also given the belt slot to the Eidolon).
Touche, the Cloak slot is also a pretty big contention. My Summoner gets around all this by just not giving her Eidolon any items and not minding that he's kind of weak, focusing instead on party buffs and SLA summons that also do party buffs, relegating the Eidolon to a mount and glorified animal companion, but with the new focus on having either Eidolon or SLA, if I was playing a RAW Summoner that would be a bigger concern.
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Played a 14th level Summoner before the APG final changes. He was awesome.
Played a 14th level Summoner last night for the first time updated to the new rules--guess what? HE WAS STILL AWESOME.
Folks should likely take some time to, you know, play a summoner before jumping a big heap o' melodramatic conclusions. :-)
Exactly. My wife's been running summoner for the last 7 levels of Rise of the Runelords and it kicks ass.
People can armchair quarterback things all they want and talk about squishy this or whatever but when I've seen 20+ sessions of butt kicking I just have to shrug at the complaining. The SLA is a hit, as is the sleeping thing. Getting haste 2 more times per day at seventh level and black tentacles & dimension door when she would have had to wait until 10th level is going to be a huge help in our game since there is no wizard in the party.
Can anyone with the book say what level the spell to summon the eidolon is?
Overall the SLA nerf makes the table more manageable without trashing the class too much and the spell progression easily makes up for that loss.
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Can anyone with the book say what level the spell to summon the eidolon is?
It's a 2nd level spell, so it competes with haste, barkskin, glitterdust, blur, bear's endurance/bull's strength/cat's grace/eagle's splendor, invisibility, see invisibility, slow, and wind wall for spell slots. Plus whatever new level 2 summoner spells there are.
Number of sessions we've had a Summoner: 3
Number of sessions we'd have had an Eidolon-less Summoner: 2
My anecdote beats your anecdote!
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I have a question maybe one of you can answer....
I am playing a Summoner in a Runelords campaign. I do not know about the changes yet, but really like the class, especially if they power up the spell list a bit.
My question is, does it spell out what happens to any magic items your Eidolon possesses if they are banished. It does not indicate what happens in the current version of the APG. My GM has ruled (incorrectly in my opinion, sorry Dave) that any items are left behind. That, in combination with the Eidolon being able to be gotten rid of easier now, seems harsh, and a way to lose alot of items.
Any thoughts?
While it's hard to get a perfect gauge on "typical games" without playing with multiple DMs... I'd have to say that in any situation, a sample size of three is simply insufficient to come to a conclusion about anything.
And I believe that's what 0gre was getting at. Zurai's comment was the equivalent of eating a bad hamburger two out of three times at a seedy restaurant, and then coming to the conclusion that all hamburgers are disgusting from that limited experience.
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As a half-caster, with a large amount of buffing/utility spells, a perfectly valid build would be to not pump the casting stat.
Many Bard-like characters I've seen in play have been built with a focus more towards physical stats than pumping pure Charisma.
A class with medium BAB, light armor, and a melee monster at his beck and call is not a pure caster in my books.
I'd sooner compare the Summoner to a Bard or Inquisitor than a Wizard or Druid.
The fact that he's getting spells "early" simply means that compared to beta, he's now more level-appropriate. Yeah, he's not going to be winning any casting duels... but he's at least now tossing spells out that are appropriate for the CRs he's going to face.
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While it's hard to get a perfect gauge on "typical games" without playing with multiple DMs... I'd have to say that in any situation, a sample size of three is simply insufficient to come to a conclusion about anything.
And I believe that's what 0gre was getting at. Zurai's comment was the equivalent of eating a bad hamburger two out of three times at a seedy restaurant, and then coming to the conclusion that all hamburgers are disgusting from that limited experience.
More important is that how significant an achilles heal is is based on how often a given situation occurs. I can't say how often a person's summoner is going to be unconscious or how often a group is going to be in an anti-magic fiend for that matter, but for our group it neither has been an issue. My feeling is most groups won't have a lot of trouble with it. Obviously every group is different.
All that said... this is my least favorite of the changes.
And this is precisely why this particular "feature" (it was introduced in the final playtest, so I can't call it a change any more) was completely un-needed. The Summoner is already restricted by his available wealth; he doesn't need an additional, artificial, nonsensical from either a mechanical or an in character standpoint, restriction.
I agree with this. I do think the summoner needed some fixing, but sharing items was not the answer. If anyone plays one I will probably houserule it out until the player proves me wrong.
Number of sessions we've had a Summoner: 3
Number of sessions we'd have had an Eidolon-less Summoner: 2My anecdote beats your anecdote!
Your GM could have 2 out of three sessions in an anti magic zones. Does this make the wizard suck?
The class isn't balanced around atypical games.
Ah, yes, because "The players are immune to attack at night" is the typical Pathfinder experience.
I can't find where it says what magic items eidolons can use in the APG. Is it in a section other than the Summoner class?
I can't find where it says what magic items eidolons can use in the APG. Is it in a section other than the Summoner class?
It's under the Link ability in the Eidolon's Special Abilities section in the final playtest PDF. If they left it there in the release version, that's yet another problem they didn't fix while they were inventing new problems.
anti-magic fiend
Realize that this was a typo, but sounds like a very cool monster idea to me :)
I can't find where it says what magic items eidolons can use in the APG. Is it in a section other than the Summoner class?It's under the Link ability in the Eidolon's Special Abilities section in the final playtest PDF. If they left it there in the release version, that's yet another problem they didn't fix while they were inventing new problems.
Thank you.