There is no point in having 9th or 8th level spells if only the bad guys get to use them.
PCs have 5 levels of play (15-20) where they can use 8th-level spells, and 3 levels of play (17-20) where they can use 9th-level spells. Given that you level up only once every 4 game sessions (and less frequently at higher levels), that's 20 sessions of 8th- and 9th-level spell use, and at 1 session per week that's 4-5 months of gaming at those levels.
There is no point in having 9th or 8th level spells if only the bad guys get to use them.PCs have 5 levels of play (15-20) where they can use 8th-level spells, and 3 levels of play (17-20) where they can use 9th-level spells. Given that you level up only once every 4 game sessions (and less frequently at higher levels), that's 20 sessions of 8th- and 9th-level spell use, and at 1 session per week that's 4-5 months of gaming at those levels.
Yes, that is true. But I think a better example is receiving your 'ultimate' ability at 20th level and only having one level to be able to use it.
But either way, I know an epic level book is coming down the line eventually, so I am not all that worried about it right now.
And when an epic book comes out that raises things to, say, level 36, how long will it be before people complain that they don't get to use their new epic capstone abilities "long enough"? Who will complain that it's usually only their higher-level foes that get the cool 12th level spells?
Yes, that is true. But I think a better example is receiving your 'ultimate' ability at 20th level and only having one level to be able to use it.
I fully plan on letting my players continue to play at level 20 for as long as they are still interested. You don't really have to continue gaining levels to continue having fun.
Of course, I also plan to use an ad-hoc epic system until official rules arrive, I'm just pointing out that "1 level of play" can actually encompass years of gaming if you want it to.
Well, by that time, at least for me, then it would be long enough to hang up the adventuring clothes for that character.
But I do want to experience some 'epic' content (or, post 20th for those who don't like the word epic). I think a large part of it is it's something I haven't seen before, except what Wizards put out with their ELH, which wasn't too great. And I anticipate Paizo doing a MUCH better job.
Yes, that is true. But I think a better example is receiving your 'ultimate' ability at 20th level and only having one level to be able to use it.I fully plan on letting my players continue to play at level 20 for as long as they are still interested. You don't really have to continue gaining levels to continue having fun.
Of course, I also plan to use an ad-hoc epic system until official rules arrive, I'm just pointing out that "1 level of play" can actually encompass years of gaming if you want it to.
Ok, and maybe my DM would as well. Yes, I love to roleplay, but also part of the fun for me is seeing my character continue to improve. So I think after a little while in not having anything to look forward to when leveling would be a little boring. So I do want to see what post 20 content Paizo can bring us.
But again, I am not demanding it now, whenever they get to it. I know it is coming eventually. Besides, it is going to be a long time until we get to that point, anyways, in our campaign!
Ok, and maybe my DM would as well. Yes, I love to roleplay, but also part of the fun for me is seeing my character continue to improve. So I think after a little while in not having anything to look forward to when leveling would be a little boring. So I do want to see what post 20 content Paizo can bring us.
But again, I am not demanding it now, whenever they get to it. I know it is coming eventually. Besides, it is going to be a long time until we get to that point, anyways, in our campaign!
I totally understand and want Paizo epic as well. I just know that my current (and longest running ever at 3 years) game is at level 15 now. About this time next year they will be level 20. I know Epic rules will be at least a year out from that point, so my options will be wing it, or retire and start a new game. It'll be up to the players if they wish to continue.
I know Epic rules will be at least a year out from that point, so my options will be wing it, or retire and start a new game.
Or, you know, just keep playing at 20th level. One of the most successful RPGs in history (classic Traveller) had no character advancement at all. Is there truly no interest in great wyrms to slay, evil kingdoms to conquer, artifacts to be won, riches to be gained, or Dukes of Hell to foil, simply because a character won't become any more godlike than the near-deity he's already become?
I know Epic rules will be at least a year out from that point, so my options will be wing it, or retire and start a new game.Or, you know, just keep playing at 20th level. One of the most successful RPGs in history (classic Traveller) had no character advancement at all. Is there truly no interest in great wyrms to slay, evil kingdoms to conquer, artifacts to be won, riches to be gained, or Dukes of Hell to foil, simply because a character won't become any more godlike than the near-deity he's already become?
And maybe for yourself, that is good enough. But as I said in my prior post, one of the things I enjoy about playing an RPG is having my character grow, not only in character, but yes, the mechanical aspect as well. Your next ability gained through your class or another feat just around the corner.
Godlike is relative, even with powers at 9th level, you can never take on a deity (at least what I feel) and you couldn't even fight an avatar at that point, either. Which for me, is another thing to go for in those post 20th levels. Maybe not going after an avatar just because, but since you are one of the few 'epic' parties on the planet, you are one of the few bastions of hope to combat the avatar of Set who is, for whatever reason, meddling in the Prime Material Plane.
To some, that is unrealistic, but really, so what? This is fantasy, where fantastic things can happen and where you can play out roles you can't anywhere else.
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I like how Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved handled Epic Rules more so than 3rd Edition did. It seemed more connected to that system, while the Epic Rules Handbook seemed a bit experimental and disjointed.
My hope is that Paizo takes the time to truly make some wonderful Epic Rules, and maybe consider bringing in a few people who have created products for that level of play.
Godlike is relative, even with powers at 9th level, you can never take on a deity (at least what I feel) and you couldn't even fight an avatar at that point, either. Which for me, is another thing to go for in those post 20th levels. Maybe not going after an avatar just because, but since you are one of the few 'epic' parties on the planet, you are one of the few bastions of hope to combat the avatar of Set who is, for whatever reason, meddling in the Prime Material Plane.
To some, that is unrealistic, but really, so what? This is fantasy, where fantastic things can happen and where you can play out roles you can't anywhere else.
Yeah, see, I'm bang-along-side with you in fighting avatars and even demigods. I just don't think you need "epic" advancement to do that.
I mean, the Pathfinder Bestiary explicitly says that "solars' power approaches that of demigods". Solars are CR 23, so that would seem to put a "standard" Pathfinder RPG demigod at, what, CR 25? Maybe CR 26? And it would be pretty weird for an avatar to be more powerful than an actual deity, so call it CR 24.
Which would mean, if you allow PCs to advance to 25th level, a party of four should find an avatar an "easy" encounter and a demigod an "average" or "challenging" one. Go find a lesser god if you want an actually "Hard" encounter?
Godlike is relative, even with powers at 9th level, you can never take on a deity (at least what I feel) and you couldn't even fight an avatar at that point, either. Which for me, is another thing to go for in those post 20th levels. Maybe not going after an avatar just because, but since you are one of the few 'epic' parties on the planet, you are one of the few bastions of hope to combat the avatar of Set who is, for whatever reason, meddling in the Prime Material Plane.
To some, that is unrealistic, but really, so what? This is fantasy, where fantastic things can happen and where you can play out roles you can't anywhere else.
Yeah, see, I'm bang-along-side with you in fighting avatars and even demigods. I just don't think you need "epic" advancement to do that.
I mean, the Pathfinder Bestiary explicitly says that "solars' power approaches that of demigods". Solars are CR 23, so that would seem to put a "standard" Pathfinder RPG demigod at, what, CR 25? Maybe CR 26? And it would be pretty weird for an avatar to be more powerful than an actual deity, so call it CR 24.
Which would mean, if you allow PCs to advance to 25th level, a party of four should find an avatar an "easy" encounter and a demigod an "average" or "challenging" one. Go find a lesser god if you want an actually "Hard" encounter?
Well, I know James had indicated in prior threads that demon lords upcoming in a future book(I believe that is that is what they were) approached 30, as well as the Four Horsemen being into the 30s.
As for an avatar of a major deity, I could certainly see them being above a demi-god. But really, it is all relative and what each views what power they should be at. My point is, I am sure Paizo can give us nasty creatures and other-worldly beings going into even the 30s.
Besides, as I said, the 'epic' advancement is part of the fun for me. Sure, a party of four 20th level characters could maybe take on a 24th or 25th level creature (although I think it would be pretty hard), however, it would be a lot more fun (at least for me) to take it on with added powers, abilities and spells beyond 20th level. :)
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I'd be more understanding if I heard something along the lines of "We're working on it, but it's a lot of work, since it's re-designing instead of adapting", but when I hear "one year at the earliest", I think that's just bad business practice.
How about this, then:
"We're running a high-level playtest campaign to see how regular Pathfinder RPG handles at high levels. Without understanding that as our baseline, we can't expect to give epic-level play a reasonable, balanced, and fun treatment. We'd rather take the time to do our research so we can do it right instead of rushing and doing it poorly."
I'd be more understanding if I heard something along the lines of "We're working on it, but it's a lot of work, since it's re-designing instead of adapting", but when I hear "one year at the earliest", I think that's just bad business practice.How about this, then:
"We're running a high-level playtest campaign to see how regular Pathfinder RPG handles at high levels. Without understanding that as our baseline, we can't expect to give epic-level play a reasonable, balanced, and fun treatment. We'd rather take the time to do our research so we can do it right instead of rushing and doing it poorly."
Sean there you Paizo people go again taking the logical approach to rules design, what do you guys want to accomplish, a coherent rules system? :D [/sarcasm]
How about this, then:
"We're running a high-level playtest campaign to see how regular Pathfinder RPG handles at high levels. Without understanding that as our baseline, we can't expect to give epic-level play a reasonable, balanced, and fun treatment. We'd rather take the time to do our research so we can do it right instead of rushing and doing it poorly."
Sounds good.
I know Epic rules will be at least a year out from that point, so my options will be wing it, or retire and start a new game.Or, you know, just keep playing at 20th level. One of the most successful RPGs in history (classic Traveller) had no character advancement at all. Is there truly no interest in great wyrms to slay, evil kingdoms to conquer, artifacts to be won, riches to be gained, or Dukes of Hell to foil, simply because a character won't become any more godlike than the near-deity he's already become?
Very true. Actually, my plan is to just let them continue taking classes. If they have reached level 20 in a specific class, it is time to branch out. If your BAB is over 20, you still only get 4 iterative attacks. If you have maxed your spell casting, time to get a new class.
As it is, my group (14th level) just defeated a CR 22 (Geryon) + 2 CR 20s (Pit Fiends) + 2 CR 16s (Horned Devils) + 6 CR 13s (Ice Devils) in a single fight. I've got them on the slow xp progress and they have quite a bit higher wealth per level (each one has an artifact at this point), so I'm really needing more high level threats for them to face. I am used to "sideways" advancement due to gear and other perks.
As it is, my group (14th level) just defeated a CR 22 (Geryon) + 2 CR 20s (Pit Fiends) + 2 CR 16s (Horned Devils) + 6 CR 13s (Ice Devils) in a single fight. I've got them on the slow xp progress and they have quite a bit higher wealth per level (each one has an artifact at this point), so I'm really needing more high level threats for them to face. I am used to "sideways" advancement due to gear and other perks.
Wow their wealth must be through the roof especially if they each have an artifact. I'm not too sure how a group of level 14's beat an arch devil and 2 cr 20's...was this all at the same time? Is it an 8 man group of 14th level players?
Wow their wealth must be through the roof especially if they each have an artifact. I'm not too sure how a group of level 14's beat an arch devil and 2 cr 20's...was this all at the same time? Is it an 8 man group of 14th level players?
As it is, my group (14th level) just defeated a CR 22 (Geryon) + 2 CR 20s (Pit Fiends) + 2 CR 16s (Horned Devils) + 6 CR 13s (Ice Devils) in a single fight. I've got them on the slow xp progress and they have quite a bit higher wealth per level (each one has an artifact at this point), so I'm really needing more high level threats for them to face. I am used to "sideways" advancement due to gear and other perks.
4 Man Group, although they had a 15th level cleric NPC with them. Artifacts include The Sword of Kas, Molar's of Vecna (our centaur barbarian is a vampire 2x per month), and a divine version of the Staff of the Magi (Called the Staff of the Cardinal).
Yes, wealth per level is through the roof. That's what I get for squeezing 2 campaigns worth of adventures into 1 campaign. So far they've completed: Infinite Staircase, Modron March, Dead Gods, Vault of Souls, Die Vecna Die, and most recently A Paladin in Hell.
I think if you really wanted to do a very long, very involved campaign that culminated in the slaying of a god, it should be possible.
So, how powerful is a god?
Do you REALLY want to know that?I think if you really wanted to do a very long, very involved campaign that culminated in the slaying of a god, it should be possible.So, how powerful is a god?
If you're trying to design rules with the goal of having a "campaign that culminated in the slaying of a god", isn't it absolutely vital that one knows how hard a god is to kill? Gods at CR 25 versus gods at CR 75 require completely different designs for high-level play.
I mean, if we used the stats from the 1st edition Deities & Demigods, naively converted, a 20th level character can expect to win a solo fight with the greater god Gruumsh. "Oh no, how will I defeat an enemy with AC 31, 350 hp, a +13 BAB, and 15th-level cleric spellcasting?"
As long as we know that it's coming, that's good enough for me.
We definitely know it is coming, and I'm sure internally Paizo has a good idea when they will do it. They just don't like announcing books that are more than a year away, since those are very much subject to change. Epic will show up sometime around 2012 or 2013.
I'd be more understanding if I heard something along the lines of "We're working on it, but it's a lot of work, since it's re-designing instead of adapting", but when I hear "one year at the earliest", I think that's just bad business practice.How about this, then:
"We're running a high-level playtest campaign to see how regular Pathfinder RPG handles at high levels. Without understanding that as our baseline, we can't expect to give epic-level play a reasonable, balanced, and fun treatment. We'd rather take the time to do our research so we can do it right instead of rushing and doing it poorly."
That is precisely what I wanted to hear. If you need any help playtesting it.....
I would be most interested in mechanics that replace the most time consuming aspects of high level play. Dealing with vast treasure, minions, or the fawning of the masses would be good. some people like dealing with managing every aspect of their characters, my group never seems to get into it. Yet, story wise, the more powerful the character the more people/creatures/factions/gods seem to take notice (either as an ally, enemy or useful pawn).
I want a mechanic that allows quick and easy management of things like running a city, guild, magic academy or kingdom. Rules for politics that make sense and could quickly wrap up internal or interantional intrique or tensionif the player group wanted to sweep past that (other than just making yet another diplomacy role I mean).
IMO, there should be reasons why high level player characters stay on the Prime instead of getting pulled away from their world by various quests and factions, or killed by that CR 30 Praying Mantis. I would want that explored. It would be ideal if there was something in place that made it increasingly more difficult for HLPCs to adventure on the prime beyond the "things are too easy" reason.
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I would assume that when Paizo begins tinkering with an epic system, they will put it out as an open playtest. Once an epic rulebook is published, I would like to see an adventure path to support it by venturing into epic levels. I think I once saw James mention the thought of releasing an adventure path that picked up where Council of Thieves left off. Perhaps that or Kingmaker or Serpent's Skull could be restarted with an expansion adventure path for epic play.
Epic rules? Yes, please! Right now in my home-brewed game world (still going strong after 16+ years, through 2e, 3.x, and now Pathfinder), there are a couple (literally a couple, as in two) epic level NPCs inhabiting the material plane, along with one dead-but-dreaming demigod who's scheduled for a brief but climactic reemergence. I'm running a slow progression game that I intend to culminate with one of those NPCs setting a major cataclysm in motion when he attempts to hijack that newly reawakened demigod's power in order to achieve his own apotheosis. It will be up to my PCs to stop him (or really it, at this point). Right now, my PCs are merely 9th level, and we're not the type to go rushing about grinding for XP, so I've got time. It would be nice, though, if I had some good mechanics ready to go for when the game is ready to reach that culmination.
I'm willing to wait, since I'm nowhere near needing it, but it's very nice to know it's coming. It's even nicer to know that you're taking the time to do it right.
You guys are the greatest!
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Heh, I was also thinking Epic rules in 2012 seemed perfect and poetic!
I tend to think that multi classing and/or prestige classing is one good way to deal with characters that hit level 20, at least until Epic rules come about (or, quite frankly, even after they do)
A 20th level character that then takes on a cool prestige class is good for another 10 levels ...
There is a chapter (o.k., it's rather a paragraph) on epic play in the rulebook. That seems enough to go on playing/progressing in your class. Doesn't casting a quickened mass heal seem epic?
I'd like to cite the passage, but it is the german translation.
When an epic-level book will be released, one can easily adjust/adapt to the new rules.
P.S. If my wording/grammar is flawed or simply wrong, feel kindly invited to correct me.
Nope. In fact, they've been even more silent than usual about it :)
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I personally think that James and crew putting Epic rules on the back burner is a mistake. I think with any game dependent on level cap, there's only so many times you can level to that level cap and then start over.
Its gets old, quickly.
My group is currently working through a second pathfinder campaign, leveling up to 20 (got to 20 in the first game already), and we're already talking about not buying any more PF books until the epic rules get done because we have no interest in starting over again.
Not sure if I'm in the minority or the majority, but I really think all the other projects and splat books should be the ones put on the back burner and the Epic rules should come first.
My group is currently working through a second pathfinder campaign, leveling up to 20 (got to 20 in the first game already), and we're already talking about not buying any more PF books until the epic rules get done because we have no interest in starting over again.
Why not keep going?
The existing rules allow you to continue leveling up; just choose another class.
Reddit had an interview with Erik Mona and James Jacobs about a month ago where the question came up again if there is going to be an Epic (Mythic) book that will be released.
YES! We will do this eventually, likely some time in the next couple of years. I must confess that the third edition epic-level rules have almost no "champions" at Paizo. The math underlying the d20 system rules gets shaky enough at the standard high levels, so simply patching another 20 levels on top of that with a bunch of uber feats and some lame monsters doesn't really work for us. We've been experimenting with a totally different concept that allows for the sort of high-octane "mythic" adventuring that we think fans of epic content want, but with a completely different mechanical approach. We're still in the concepting stage for how exactly this will work at the moment, but it's definitely something we will be getting around to in the relatively near future.
http://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/sg3g3/we_make_pathfinderask_us_ anything/
So it looks like it’s going to happen eventually.
Not sure how to do a link, but you can copy and paste address.
LazarX,
Please remember the OP was posted back in July 2010. There has been more thought on epic play since then, just from my recent post (above yours).
Epic play is something they are definitely working on, and Erik indicated it will be coming. Just when is the question.
I just hope they do more than raise the level cap. I see no reason for a really good system to have one.