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Since it now increases the strength bonus (and not "adds") doesn't that mean that since you replace dex for str, you also increase his damage to dex*1.5?
Expect a no for two reasons,
1)It says Strength and not Dexterity, so by strict RAW it would have no effect.
2)The Agile enchant which allows you to use Dex instead of Str for damage specifically prohibits the 1.5x two handed multiplier to damage and Dragon Style essentially does the same thing, albeit with only one hand.
Even the Piranha Strike feat specifically leaves out the wording that Power Attack gets to increase the damage to a 1.5x modifier.
Generally anything that bolsters Str damage from extra hands or power, does not apply when Dexterity becomes the damage stat.
Basically the Devs are reluctant to allow too much in the way of Dex based combatants, unfortunately.
Just because you can replace Str modifier with Dex modifier doesn't mean you can apply increases to Str modifier to your Dex modifier afterwards. The reason why agile mentions wielding it in two hands is that you can wield those weapons in two hands (unlike with this ability), and sometimes the text gives reminders of things that would already be true without that text if they would be a common occurrence, thus making them worth the wordcount. For example, on Thursday, Logan and I were working on <redacted>, and I pointed out that we didn't need the line about something not stacking because it already didn't stack. We both agreed to include it, despite the fact that it was redundant, just because it would come up commonly in games, it took few words to explain, and it would make it easier for people to understand than leaving it out.
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Except that the Agile enchant, which I believe was the first option available for using Dex for damage, specifically states that the off hand damage limitation is enforced.
The Piranha Strike feat also specifically addresses the same limitation.
The new feats and abilities leave it out entirely, however, there is clear precedence already established in this regard.
That and one of the Developers just said so, so... to me that is a pretty solid no, now.
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Except that the Agile enchant, which I believe was the first option available for using Dex for damage, specifically states that the off hand damage limitation is enforced.
The Piranha Strike feat also specifically addresses the same limitation.
The new feats and abilities leave it out entirely, however, there is clear precedence already established in this regard.
That and one of the Developers just said so, so... to me that is a pretty solid no, now.
Right, the precedence is "it says so, thus it can't". The new ones don't say so. And there is no universal rule in place. I'm not saying it shouldn't as you're right, it seemingly shouldn't, but the argument for the opposite (as I just said) is also just as valid.
The Whirling Dervish archetype doesn't even give you Dex to damage if you dual-wield.
Dervish Dance (Ex): At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
Dervish Finesse (Ex): A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler’s finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit. This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.
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@claudekennilol: Not exactly, as there is no precedence to support the argument the other way beyond deductive reasoning. E.g. "It should work like this if it is a direct translation".
I am a big fan of agile, dexterity based fighters. However, I just don't see things like this working from a practical sense or from a "we don't want to undervalue strength" standpoint.
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The Whirling Dervish archetype doesn't even give you Dex to damage if you dual-wield.
Dervish Dance (Ex): At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.Dervish Finesse (Ex): A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler’s finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit. This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.
It does if you use unarmed strikes. You could use two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes while having a free hand. If you used pummeling style, you would even get decent panache regeneration.
but the reasoning for not including it seems really counter intuitive.i mean at this point we have:
when x, multiply x*1.5
replace x with ythat should intuitively translate when x, multiply y*1.5
Except your doing the equation wrong.
It goes like this.When X, X = X*1.5
replace x with y.
So since dragon ferocity was increasing str, and you throw str out the window by getting dex instead, you don't get the multiplier on dex.
It does if you use unarmed strikes. You could use two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes while having a free hand. If you used pummeling style, you would even get decent panache regeneration.The Whirling Dervish archetype doesn't even give you Dex to damage if you dual-wield.
Dervish Dance (Ex): At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.Dervish Finesse (Ex): A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler’s finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit. This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.
You only have an off-hand for two-weapon fighting. Thus if something is reffering to off-hand it uses a "metaphorical hand" or in other words, you can't two weapon fight with it because it's using up your off hand by needing it free.
you replace your str with your dex. You've increased your str. Nothing says to increase your dex. also you prove it in your example
"i mean at this point we have:
when x, multiply x*1.5
replace x with y"
At this point you're no longer using x you're using y. Thus you lose out on the multiply x*1.5 OR you go in order in which case you increased X and then replaced the increased X with y. It doesn't say, whenever you see the word str replace with dex for all abilities and such.
ALSO
a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse.
While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of twice your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the other attacks
So even in here you have use DEX instead of STR. This isn't even a replace, so it's more clear that it doesn't work like you're trying to say it is.
Same difference. you could add 5x str. you're still replacing any damage done by str by damage done with dex.
use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier
doesn't matter if you've changed that modifier or adding that modifier 500 times. you're doing dex instead of str.
No, your Strength is no longer factored in whatsoever. That means that anything that would affect your Strength for damage means... nothing.
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You only have an off-hand for two-weapon fighting. Thus if something is reffering to off-hand it uses a "metaphorical hand" or in other words, you can't two weapon fight with it because it's using up your off hand by needing it free.It does if you use unarmed strikes. You could use two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes while having a free hand. If you used pummeling style, you would even get decent panache regeneration.The Whirling Dervish archetype doesn't even give you Dex to damage if you dual-wield.
Dervish Dance (Ex): At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.Dervish Finesse (Ex): A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler’s finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit. This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.
Except that's not what it says. It says "She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit." If we are counting the metaphorical hand of TWF, then you never can benefit from the ability, because you are always carrying your unarmed strike.
Common sense, every time the rules substitute one Attribute for another, pretty much every time anything like this comes up.
As for how you use your Dex mod in place, how do you think Weapon Finesse works then? It does exactly the same thing as Agile does, except it applies to your attack bonus instead.
So, would you then state that a Belt of Strength +6 then adds an additional +3 to your Melee bonus?
Why? You are now using your Dexterity bonus instead of your Strength bonus. Nothing effecting your Strength means jack. It could be 50,000 times your Strength bonus to attack...
But you are using Dexterity to attack. Same thing for damage.
Dragon Style is still using your Strength. Same issue as Ferocity. You're not using Strength to do damage, you're using Dexterity.
Look the normal wording of attacking is: add your Strength modifier to the damage result.
When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus
dragon style:
you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on your first unarmed strike on a given round.
use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier
So if I use a one handed weapon in two hands, according to you, I'd also get 1xDex and 1.5xStr, since it has the same wording as dragon style. You support this right?
Rhatahema. It's the same wording between them. I don't know how you read one one way and the other a different way. In two-handed you're adding str and you say it's replaced by dex. In dragon you're adding str and saying you keep the str. You should at least be consistent.
Anything that's modifying str doesn't carry over to dex. anything that modifies str, modifies then str. and then you replace that str with your dex. You're free to believe what you want, and run in home games as you wish.