Hey everyone, I was hoping I could ask for some help. If this has been covered before, I'm sorry, I did a search but didn't find exactly what I was looking for. So here we go...
I'm pretty new to PFRPG, and am looking to make a great combat focused rogue. I figure I'll want to maximize sneak attack and criticals, do a lot of feinting, and minimize attacks of opportunity. Any advice on these topics or anything else would definitely be appreciated.
P.S. We're starting at 3rd level, so obviously I won't have everything I want off the bat, but just suggestions for down the road would be great. Thanks!
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Minimize AoOs: Acrobatics (Skill), Mobility (Feat, Increases AC against AoO), Spring Attack (Let's you move, attack, move and negates AoOs for that movement)
Feint: Improved Feint (Feint as a move action), Bluff (Skill needed to use the maneuver)
Criticals: Improved Critical (High requirement, but nice) OR Keen (+1 equivalent, has the same effect), Overflank (APG feat, lets you get an AoO on an opponent if an ally who also has the feat and is helping you flank gets a critical hit, and visa-versa, and gives both of you extra flanking to-hit bonus).
Sneak Attacks: Flanking and Feinting are your best options. Overflank is a good synergy with flanking if you can get another player to take it. Improved feint is as good as feint gets.
Weapon finesse, minimizes the need for a high strength.
Skill Focus (acrobatics) to increase flanking potition without AoO.
Dodge and Mobility help if acrobatics fails.
Unarmed strike means never being unarmed.
Two weapon fight is good for full round attacks, but if you can full attack so can your opponent.
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Two weapon fight is good for full round attacks, but if you can full attack so can your opponent.
Some kind of staggering effect item or ability might help with that, actually, but there aren't many of them. Stunning fist is one, which would go along with the unarmed strike suggestion, but it isn't reliable in the least.
But yes, forgot to say "Do TWF and (to avoid MAD) Weapon Finesse." Kukris are a popular TWF weapon, but any light weapon will work. If you don't plan on getting Weapon Focus or similar feats then you can do a staggered dual wield and couple a Rapier in the main hand with a light in the off.Funny TWF idea: Heavy Pick + Light Pick. Mildly scary since you get a x4 critical on both.
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Finesse and AC are good, especially at the lower levels.
When you get to higher levels you may miss strength more than you'd think.
If you go "brute" style (high strength, high constitution, medium dex ) and you're golden for whacking things with a sword.
Grab a longspear, some other 2handed melee weapon, and some daggers/kukris for when you gotta get in close & sneaky.
Power attack and cleave are great starting feats, and you can always build up to TWF later on.
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Finesse and AC are good, especially at the lower levels.
When you get to higher levels you may miss strength more than you'd think.
If you go "brute" style (high strength, high constitution, medium dex ) and you're golden for whacking things with a sword.
Grab a longspear, some other 2handed melee weapon, and some daggers/kukris for when you gotta get in close & sneaky.
Power attack and cleave are great starting feats, and you can always build up to TWF later on.
If you go for a THW you could get Improved Unarmed Strike and TWF the two, since unarmed strike can be done with your hands full.
Greatsword + Greatboot TWFighter.
Wow, ton of great suggestions. Thanks so much. I've never considered the "brute style" rogue, I'll definitely take that, as well as everything else under consideration. Also, I don't know that I'll do it, but I love the duel wield picks idea, x4 critical would be nasty.
If you go the finesse route then I would suggest the "Dervish dance" feat from the Qadira book (paizo product). It allows you to treat a scimitar as a finessable weapon and gives your Dex mod to damage instead of your strength mod with the scimitar. This feat only works if the scimitar is the only weapon you are using (and you aren't using a shield).
There is another feat called "piranha's strike" that functions like power attack only it's dex based to take it and it only functions with light weapons. This feat is from the sargava the lost colony book.
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20 points:
Dwarven Rogue
Str: 17 (13 points)
Int: 7 (-4 points)
Wis: 12 (0 points)
Dex: 14 (5 points)
Con: 18 (10 points)
Chr: 5 (-4 points)
Comments: "Brute Rogue" Dwarf... holes up one of the biggest weaknesses of rogues (awful saving throws / low hp) by giving you +2 on all relevant saves and good save stats. Also lets you not worry about the feat-intensive two-weapon fighting line; also makes you much better with spring attack / vital strike charging. 6 skill points are generally plenty; I recommend taking Perception, Disable Device, Climb, Tumble... this guy isn't sneaky (and let's be honest, without house rules stealth is AWFUL anyway). Also, gives you 13 hp at first level; and about 32 at 3rd (where you're starting). You'll probably outpace your fighter on both hp and damage output.
Fort: +4 Ref: +4 Will: +2 vs anything magic / poinons (everything) an additional +2. Solid Damage output, darkvision (amazing for rogues), and able to detect stonework anomolies without even wasting time looking.
Wield a longspear so you're not base to base and can get 2-handed damage and go to town. Take power attack at 1st level; rock it out... up Str throughout your career.
I agree with james on the half orc.
However the fighter also has his weapon training which will give the fighter +2 to hit and on damage.
Another nice thing about the half orc is that the mass intimidation/ shattered defenses combo can actually really work for him:
Half orcs start with a +2 to intimidate
Take the veiled vileness feat for an extra +1 (and a +1 on will saves which is really useful too in addition to looking human).
Grab your skill booster feats for another +10 (past 9th level).
A decent Cha means that with a stat booster (wis and cha in my opinion) you can have +4 from the stat.
Class bonus and intimidating prowess in addition to your ranks means you can easily be looking at a 12 (class level) + 6 (strength) + 3 (class bonus) + 11 (above feats) + 2 (race) + 3 (circlet of presuasion) gives you a + 37 at level 12 on your intimidate checks.
Now it is about as feat intensive as the two weapon fighting line is, but at least you can get sneak attack on your own easier, and it's not quite as common as the two weapon rogue.
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Think dps Fighter not Rogue. Flanking over sneeking in to position.
Human (20 point)
Str 16 ( +1 levels 8,12,16,&20)
Dex 17 ( +1 level 4)
con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 8
Exotic Weapon Falcata, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Toughness,
Hey everyone, I was hoping I could ask for some help. If this has been covered before, I'm sorry, I did a search but didn't find exactly what I was looking for. So here we go...
I'm pretty new to PFRPG, and am looking to make a great combat focused rogue. I figure I'll want to maximize sneak attack and criticals, do a lot of feinting, and minimize attacks of opportunity. Any advice on these topics or anything else would definitely be appreciated.
P.S. We're starting at 3rd level, so obviously I won't have everything I want off the bat, but just suggestions for down the road would be great. Thanks!
Take a look at my guide to rogues, found here at d20pfsrd.
Half-Orc Combat-Brute/Skill-Monkey Rogue
15-Point Buy:
16 Str (14 +2 race), 14 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha; +1 Int at 4th level, all other advancements in Str
20-Point Buy:
17 Str (15 +2 race), 15 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha; +1 Str and +1 Dex at 4th and 8th levels (either order), all other advancements in Str (possibly a +1 Int at 12th level)
25-Point Buy:
18 Str (16 +2 race), 15 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha; +1 Dex at 4th level, all other advancements in Str
Possible progression:
R1- Intimidating Prowess or Skill Focus (Bluff)*
R2- Weapon Training (Weapon Focus (Falchion))
R3- Combat Expertise or Power Attack*
R4- Bleeding Attack or Combat Trick (Combat Expertise)*
R5- Improved Feint
R6- Combat Trick (Dazzling Display) or Bleeding Attack*
R7- Improved Initiative
R8- Surprise Attack
R9- Vital Strike
R10- Feat (Shatter Defenses) or Opportunist*
*- the second choice is for the 15-point buy version
Brute Half-Orc Rogue:(Start with at least 18 STR)Trait-
Brute:You have spent long hours working for a crime lord, either as a low-level enforcer or as a guard or bouncer. You’re adept at frightening away people.
Benefit: You gain a +2 trait bonus on Intimidate checks.(Adds to your racial+2)Heirloom Weapon: Benefit: This heirloom weapon is of masterwork quality (but you pay only the standard cost at character creation). You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with this specific weapon and are considered proficient with that specific weapon (but not other weapons of that type) even if you do not have the required proficiencies.
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Use the following (you have 6 feats to pick)
1SA 1d6, Trapfinding, Intimidating Prowess
2Wpn Fcs: Falchion, Evasion
3Dazzling Display, SA 2d6, Trap Sense +1
4Conrugan Smash, Uncanny Dodge
5Power Attack, SA 3d6
6Resiliancy, Trap Sense +2
7Feat, SA 4d6
8Bleeding Attack, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9Shatter Defences, SA 5d6, Trap Sense +3
10Crippling Strike
11Feat, SA 6d6
12Feat, trap sense +4
13Feat, SA 7d6
14Oppourtunist
15Feat, SA 8d6, Trap Sense +5
16Defensive Roll
17 Feat, SA 9d6
18Slippery Mind, Trap Sense +6
19Feat, SA 10d6
20Skill mastery, Master StrikeCheers.
I like it alot, but its not technically legal. Cornugon Smash can be taken earliest at level 6 due to needing 6 ranks in intimidate and having power attack as a prerequisite. It's workable though, just switch Resiliency to level 4, and take Cornugon Smash as a Combat Trick at level 6. I prefer to mix some fighter levels in there for armour, BAB and getting Shatter Defenses faster, but that is a damn nice pure Rogue, well done.
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Bulding on what I posted last night. Sorry was half asleep when I did the first post. I'm not going to bother going past level 12. One becous most games don't get much higher then that. Two thats the cap for society play.
Human (20 Point Buy )
Str 16
Dex 15 +2human = 17
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 8
Rogue 1 Trap Finding, Sneek attack 1D6, Two Weapon Fighting, Human Bouns feet: Exotic Weapon Falcata
Rogue 2 Evasion, Rogue Talent: suprise attack
Rogue 3 Sneek Attack 2D6, Double Slice
Rogue 4 uncanny dodge, Rogue Talent: bleeding attack, +1Dex
Rogue 5 Sneek Attack 3D6, Toughness
Rogue 6 Rogue Talent: Fast Stealth
Rogue 7 Sneek Attack 4D6, Improved Initiative
Rogue 8 Rogue Talent: Weapon Training: Weapon Focus Falcata, +1Str
Rogue 9 Sneek Attack 5D6, Improved Two Weapon Figthing
Rogue 10 Advance Rogue Talent, Rogue Talent: Improved Evasion
Rogue 11 Sneek Attack 6D6, Improved Critical Falcata
Rogue 12 Rogue Talent: Feet: Toughness, +1Str
Level 12 Rogue (With out gear)
Str 18
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 8
HP 108
Fort 6
Ref 12
Will 4
Falcata X2 (BAB 9+4 Str mod +1 Weapon Focus -4 Off Hand weapon is not Light )
To hit 10/10/5/5 Damage 1D8+4 Critical 17-20 X3
Sneek Attack Damage 6D6
Always been partial to the dagger-rogue.
Dualwield daggers, make sure to pick up quick draw so you can spend the first round in combat full-attacking anything within 30 feet.
Get high dex, good int and con to make yourself a viable rogue for more purposes than just smacking heads.
Ex 15pb: Str10, Dex15+2, Con14, Int14, Wis10, Cha8. You want the dex to qualify for improved two weapon fighting at lv8, and it is also your bread and butter when it comes to combat effectiveness.
Feats/talents: Focus on two weapon, but get quick draw, so you can full-attack by throwing daggers in the opening round. Get surprise attack, bleeding attack, weapon training and save weapon trick to get improved two-weapon fighting on lv8.
This build makes you deadly in combat, but doesn't bar you from being a good rogue as well.
How are you getting a +20 BAB for a Rogue18/Alchemist2? It should be +14 BAB.
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1) Is this rogue likely to reach level 20?
2) Are you dead set on gaining the Master Strike ability at level 20?
If the answer to either of these questions is, "No", take a level of fighter.
This bears repeating.
Take a level of Fighter.
Aaaaand, one more time, .*
This not only bumps up your BAB and Fort save by 1, it gives you access to weapons and armor you can't use as a straight Rogue. Kukri's are nice, light, high-crit weapons just begging to have Bursting properties to combine with your Sneak Attacks. And since you want to be a Melee Combat Rogue, the Mithril Breastplate is one of your best friends, but you need Medium Armor Proficiency to wear it.
*Can you tell I feel very strongly about this? ;-)
I'd throw in my 2cp if nobody has mentioned this little trick.
A few bags of marbles from the Adventurer's Armory can ruin someone's day quick if you're a rouge. Throw the little devils at your opponent's feet and they have to make a DC 10 reflex save or fall prone. Now, I imagine that those who pass this save are considered balancing. It doesn't technically -say- this exactly so get your DM to rule on this.
The low DC means most foes will succeed and balance on the marbles.
Balancing foes are considered flat footed.
Stab away.
Cheap, easy, and it rewards mundane thinking.
Use caltrops, it won't kill em but if they chase you they shouldn't be running.
This build is great. I just think that since your not going to be as sneaky, dipping a few levels of fighter probably helps this out a ton.
I was thinking of Fighter or Ranger to get extra feats for TWF, then using Falchion + Armor Spikes + Orc natural bite for 5 attacks instead of the 2 or 3 that this build would get.
People have said that my AB would be too low at this point, but I dunno, there has to be a way to make it work.
Brute Half-Orc Rogue
(Start with at least 18 STR)Trait-
Brute:You have spent long hours working for a crime lord, either as a low-level enforcer or as a guard or bouncer. You’re adept at frightening away people.
Benefit: You gain a +2 trait bonus on Intimidate checks.(Adds to your racial+2)Heirloom Weapon: Benefit: This heirloom weapon is of masterwork quality (but you pay only the standard cost at character creation). You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with this specific weapon and are considered proficient with that specific weapon (but not other weapons of that type) even if you do not have the required proficiencies.
Use the following (you have 6 feats to pick)
1SA 1d6, Trapfinding, Intimidating Prowess
2Wpn Fcs: Falchion, Evasion
3Dazzling Display, SA 2d6, Trap Sense +1
4Conrugan Smash, Uncanny Dodge
5Power Attack, SA 3d6
6Resiliancy, Trap Sense +2
7Feat, SA 4d6
8Bleeding Attack, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9Shatter Defences, SA 5d6, Trap Sense +3
10Crippling Strike
11Feat, SA 6d6
12Feat, trap sense +4
13Feat, SA 7d6
14Oppourtunist
15Feat, SA 8d6, Trap Sense +5
16Defensive Roll
17 Feat, SA 9d6
18Slippery Mind, Trap Sense +6
19Feat, SA 10d6
20Skill mastery, Master StrikeCheers.
Guys, you are forgetting that Rogues are feat starved no matter which build they go, even in PF. So intimidating should be left to fighter or someone who actually got feats to spare.
As for combat rogue - i would go with UMD maxed, grab that wand of greater invis (later of course, around 8th level) and go to town, yea it costs a lot - but it frees up feats you would end up wasting on getting to enemy and Outflank, comes down to +4 flank bonus either way, just that you don't have to flank to trigger SA. So you are ready to go for next 50+ combats after you get it, 50+ simply cause you can bother your wizard to throw Greater Invisibility on you from time to time, like in boss fights that will last longer than 4-5 rounds or before you get wand.
Also Keen > Improved Crit. Keen is +1 enchantment that does not have BAB requirements and does not eat up your feat - everything you can get via item, do not waste your feats on.
If you choose to go this route, grab as someone stated above 1 level of Fighter, it helps a great deal, grab two kukris and go TWF route, get 15 Dex and rest put into str and cha, save up cash on the start as much as possible (no +1 kukri's and stuff like that) on 4th level you should have enough cash to get yourself +2 dex and get first Imp. TWF. Instead of going Weapon Finesse, go Str - it helps with damage dealing, if for nothing more than lowering DR of monsters.
Stats distribution should be something like this: Dex=Str>Cha>Con>Int>Wis.
So with 20 point buy:
Human/Half-orc/Half-elf (your choice really) Fighter 1/Rogue 2
HP: 26 HP (average)
AC: 16 (10 + 3 Dex + 3 Armor)
Str 15 (7)
Dex(+2 racial): 16 (5)
Con 12 (2)
Int 10 (0)
Wis 11
Cha 14 (5)
Feats: TWF (Human 1), Toughness (Fighter 1), Weapon Focus (kukri) (1st level), Double Slice (3rd level), Combat Trick: Power Attack(1st Rogue Talent)
Attacks: +4/+4 (1d4 +2) or flanking +6/+6 (1d4 +2 +1d6)
Gear (3k): 2x MW kukri (616); Studded Leather (25);
Other equipment: Whatever you want, but it shouldn't cost too much, cause you are saving up for that +2 Dex you will need to pick up Imp. TWF on 9th level and that wand of Greater Invis.
As for traits, you can take whatever you want. I don't count on traits when making characters strong simply cause they are there to flash out your character background and not to count as mini-feats.
All through some good mechanical choices are: Reactionary (+2 bonus to Initiative); Resilent (+1 bonus on fort); Dangerously Curious (+1 on UMD); Charming (+1 on either Diplomacy or Bluff);
Note #1: that on 4th level you get major bump cause you get +2 on attacks, +1 on damage and sneak attack raises to +2d6.
Note #2: UMD DC 20 check is to activate a wand - on level 8, you should be able to make it on 7+ at 8th level.
Note #3: Even without going UMD and Greater Invisibility wand you should do quiet well with this build.
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Some points for a combat rogue.
1 : Sneek attack damage uses the number of hits to incress the damage.
2 : Finesses is not a bad choice. It was somthing I did one time. The problme with finesses. You have very low damage if your not sneek attacking.
3 : Con is not a dump stat. If you want to live.
4 : You are wasting stat points. On any stat that is not STR, DEX, or CON. A full rogue with with low stats in int, wis and cha. can still get any level apropret trap. Example Rogue level 12 Disable Device ( ranks 12 class 3 DEX mod 4 enhancement item 10 = Disable Device + 29 ) Perception ( ranks 12 WIS mod 0 Enhanacement item 10 = Perception 22) Total gp cost Belt of Physical Perfection + 2 16k Ring of Disable Device + 10 10K Ring of Perception +10 10K. Total gold spent 36k. total gold for level 12 108k. Using the charter wealth by level chart page 399 core book.
Trap Poisoned pit trap CR 12 Perception DC 25 ( need a 3 or better ) Disable Device DC 20 ( auto succes )
Maximized fireball trap CR 13 Perception DC 31 ( this is hard need a 9 or better ) Disable Device DC 31 ( need a 2 or better )
Empowerd Disintegrate Trap CR 16 Perception DC 33 ( this is hard need a 11 or better ) Disable Device DC 33 ( need a 4 or better )
5 : Rember you are bulding a two weapon fighter that can sneek attack. Use your none sneek attack damage as a base line of where you want to be. Don't count on sneek attack damage.
1. Yup thats why most say TWF route is a way to go.
2. Finesse is a bad choice - you proved it yourself under 5, but everyone to their own.
3. No one said its a dump stat, but if played right rogue doesn't need high con.
4.You are forgetting that not all games allow for custom made items, all through there are rules for them, just cause of what you said.
Cause you can have int 3 and be as skilled as any other character by getting Ring of Ultimate Skills 10/15/20 (with 4-5 skills fit into single ring) - it will cost hell of a lot, but than again, you don't care, cause after a while wealth by level become ridiculous.
5. Agreed.
