Greetings and salutations.
I am about to start running Council of Thieves for a group of friends. We played 2E in high school, and just started a 4E campaign a few months ago, which sort of unraveled for a number of reasons which probably aren't relevant to this thread.
I perused some of the Pathfinder content available, and landed on this adventure path, which seems to me to be a good fit for the group. The urban setting will allow for a good amount of RP and the backstories behind Westcrown and Cheliax are just incredibly rich and awesome. Furthermore, the AP was written specifically for PFRPG, so I am optimistic about not having to fiddle with the encounters/monsters very much, which was a huge pain for me with 4E.
We will be having our character creation session sometime in the next few weeks. I have a group of 5 players. I know that in 4E, group composition was a consideration, but it's not clear to me how important it is in Pathfinder. I've been flipping through the core book, and haven't found anything relating to group composition and the filling of roles. However, I often see in threads relating to 3.5 statements such as "you must have a rogue and a cleric for this module" and things of that nature. How big of a role does group composition play in PFRPG and this AP in particular? What are the roles and what classes fill them? Sorry if this seems like a basic question, but it's not clear to me from what I've read so far.
Also, any other pertinent info related to this AP - corners to avoid painting myself into, etc. - any of this type of advice is very welcome.
Thanks in advance to those that take the time to post and answer my silly questions. So far the stuff I've read in this adventure and the core rulebook have me really excited about running an awesome game!
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In Pathfinder, you don't "have" to have any specific composition. Also, for CoT, there are provided, in the first module, a whole group of npcs who can fill in any spots if you feel you really need it.
As for what classes will do well, I think that paladin is the strongest. They don't have to deal with DR for an entire encounter while smiting, and they get channeling and healing. A cleric isn't "necessary" if you have a paladin, except for certain healing/removing blindness/disease spells because paladins don't get those spells as quickly as clerics.
Wide area spells aren't going to be particularly effective in this campaign. Entangle is rarely useful, as it is mostly an urban game.
Generally, it is good to have one strong melee, one strong ranged, and one healer, minimum. Whether that ranged is bow or spells doesn't matter. AND, the healer can also be a stong melee or ranged.
If you just have people play what they want to play, you will have a lot more fun than, "Who's stuck playing the cleric?"
EDIT - some type of spellcaster or healer is important for at least one foe you will face quite often:
Welcome, Aplus! I love reading these kinds of threads. If I think of any further advice as things develop, I'll chime in.
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Both you and your players should definitely look at the free Council of Thieves Player's Guide that everyone can download. It gives a good background at the city of Westcrown and some of the situations and problems the PCs will face.
Also discuss with your players that you'll be running an adventure path, so characters who want to take an interest in the goings on of things and urban adventure will have a lot more to do out of the book then other characters. You don't spend much time out in the woods for example.
Also, any other pertinent info related to this AP - corners to avoid painting myself into, etc. - any of this type of advice is very welcome.
I would have a couple of pieces of advice about this one.
First off, read the entire module, cover to cover, including the supplementary campaign world info after the adventure.
Make sure your party understands that Cheliax is not the world. My players only dipped into Golarion for a short jaunt doing a module and a half in this AP. They decided that Golarion is depressing. Give your players a bit more information about the rest of the world.
Contrary to previous advice I wouldn't play with a paladin. It's not that they lack the subtlety that might be required of a party of adventurers in this AP it's just that... Well, no, actually, that's exactly it.
Reread frequently. Make sure you've got an idea how each NPC thinks, what they want, and what they're willing to do to get it. This will help when your PCs go off the map. And they will.
Good luck running it. It's challenging, but a very solid AP overall.
Thanks for all your replies so far. Now I see why there's so little activity on the Pathfinder forums at ENWorld. All the action is right here!
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Painting Westcrown as depressing is a trap. It's a faded beauty, but one the PCs should love. The people are good, the people in power are not, much like Gotham. As for party roles, anyone can search for traps, Use Magic Device and wands of Cure can take care of healing, anyone can deal damage, and UMD is also great for other spells. Most parties end up filling roles unintentionally. If they're missing something they'll probably learn to compensate.
Welcome aboard!
My suggestion with regard to character creation would be to start with the following conceits:
1) The party are natives of Westcrown. They should truly feel like it is home.
2) The party starts as Children of Westcrown. They have just been recruited by the obvious NPC.
As long as ALL PCs are onboard with this, I think you are good to go.
Cheers!
Welcome to the AP! Here's a few things I've learned and/or wish I had done from the start.
1) Make sure your players buy into the AP premise. If they don't really want to play characters focused on building a better tomorrow for Westcrown, it can create headaches.
2) Related to #1, deeply root the PCs in Westcrown if possible. Lots of friends, family, relationships, etc. 80% of my players had their families die or abandon them as part of their backstories, and I've got little to work with to help with motivation. When I hit chapter #4, I expect to hear "You want us to fight a What?!?. Sorry Westcrown, We're heading to Egorian."
3) Go through the entire AP and catalog the NPCs. When possible introduce NPCs from later chapters earlier. It helps make things more seamless, and gives the PCs a greater connection to them. A great example is an NPC in the 5th chapter who has been an information source for the Children of Westcrown. The PCs should probably meet and use his services long before then. That will also cause them to have a stronger attachment to aid him later if necessary.
4) Construct a composite map of Westcrown from the 6 chapters. It helps with continuity if you've been talking about sights and sounds whenever they pass an area, and not just describe it when they need to visit it for plot reasons.
Otherwise, read the threads in the CoT forum. They are filled with good advice or things to consider that may trip you up. Having those available has definitely helped my game.
Welcome to the AP! Here's a few things I've learned and/or wish I had done from the start.
1) Make sure your players buy into the AP premise. If they don't really want to play characters focused on building a better tomorrow for Westcrown, it can create headaches.
2) Related to #1, deeply root the PCs in Westcrown if possible. Lots of friends, family, relationships, etc. 80% of my players had their families die or abandon them as part of their backstories, and I've got little to work with to help with motivation. When I hit chapter #4, I expect to hear "You want us to fight a What?!?. Sorry Westcrown, We're heading to Egorian."
3) Go through the entire AP and catalog the NPCs. When possible introduce NPCs from later chapters earlier. It helps make things more seamless, and gives the PCs a greater connection to them. A great example is an NPC in the 5th chapter who has been an information source for the Children of Westcrown. The PCs should probably meet and use his services long before then. That will also cause them to have a stronger attachment to aid him later if necessary.
4) Construct a composite map of Westcrown from the 6 chapters. It helps with continuity if you've been talking about sights and sounds whenever they pass an area, and not just describe it when they need to visit it for plot reasons.
Otherwise, read the threads in the CoT forum. They are filled with good advice or things to consider that may trip you up. Having those available has definitely helped my game.
This is really good advice, and basically what I suggest for every AP.
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I forgot about how hard it can be for some players to bite the adventure hook. The suggestions by Elorebaen are great to combat this. The players, atleast half or more of them, need to LOVE Westcrown, preferrably what it used to stand for, before the House of Thrune took over.
You'll discover XP issues in the first module.
Something I did to help introduce an npc early was to give them rumors of a vampire huntress who just came into town. Vahnwynne has a whole little back story before her character at the end of What Lies in Dust. Mention she fights vampires with wooden stakes. They'll recognize her when they see her in Delvehaven. This was just before or just after they fought a (random) vampire spawn in the streets while hunting for shadow beasts. It was before they went into Delvehaven, but after they found the Wave Door. I planned that if the players went looking for her, they'd find the inn she was staying at, but if asked, the inn keeper would say her room was paid for the week, but he hadn't seen her in a few days. This gives her time to be caught and turned into a vampire.
Read the forums, including the archives, and feel free to ask questions.
You'll discover XP issues in the first module.
I then had them leave Westcrown for a few days while the Hellknights were on high alert from them. This was a perfect segue into "Crypt of the Everflame" for me, which I tweaked a bit to fold neatly into the story. [ My players actually thought it was part of the AP, which made me happy ]. They even defeated a group of bandits along the way that had been waylaying merchants, and earned a fame point that way.
To make all of that work, I also cut way back on the XP story awards from the first chapter. By the time they went after the Bastards, they were midway through 2nd level, and reached 3rd level at the end as planned.
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This is what I did with the sewers since the XP is screwed up for that. CoT says a medium XP progression. I am also running CoT with 6 players, so I have to change the encounters a bit so everyone gets same XP.
Since the Sewers was the first major encounter of the AP, I ran that as fast XP until they hit 2nd level. Less encounters so the players would not be tired of the sewers. Then when they lefveled like it said in the adventure, I gave them enough XP for 2nd level under medium when they got through the encounters in sewers under fast XP. Now running rest of CoT with medium as advised.
Thanks again for all your suggestions! Does Paizo offer a product with detailed (street-by-street) maps of Westcrown, or do I have to make it up?
If I have to make it up, does anyone have any suggestions or maybe a link to someone who's done most of that heavy lifting already?
Thanks!
We are starting book 2 soon, and if the Trials are half as fun to play out as they were to read, then an awesome time will be had by all.
There is one question that I haven't been able to find the answer to, and I'm sure my players will ask.
Why were the Pathfinders kicked out of Westcrown? I haven't had any success in finding the answer to this.
Cheliax Is France after the Revolution and the Royalty Lost, and the Hellfire Club became the In thing with the Crown. (using a little of our history with a twist as we did have a hellfire club and satanism was an in thing back then...)
Westcrown is Paris. Its faded, and the capitol has moved away, but it is still grand, and it can be a lot of fun and it is still proud. There is beautiful sights, sounds and smells. Operas, Bards, Plays, and Patisseries galore :) The City is grand in Gothic Blacks and Reds.
People speaking Chelaxian (the Common toung here were, french), and Infernal, and Common(Taldane) and Halflings weight hand and foot on the middle and upper class, 2nd class citizens. Tieflings are a dime a dozen, 3rd class citizens as many elite lay with the devils they summon and make contracts for power with...
The Hellknights are a group of knights that arnt evil or worship devils they are the law, started Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral, though some are Lawful Evil now. They dont work for anyone and are independant dedicated to stamping out chaos and keeping order.
The countryside is beautiful, forrests, rolling hills and farmland, lakes and rivers and temperate ocean around. The country is a shadow of what it once was, a great empire that colapsed.
But no Madeline in 2 straight lines, because Ms Clavell has been replaced by Ms Clavicle ;) a Cleric of Asmodeus and she is operating an orphanage dedicated to Asmodeus and training the kids with a firm hand to be Lawful Evil Clerics and Monks dedicated to the Devil God of Contracts (And Lies). Kidding about the ms clavicle part but the rest is true... there are many such orphanages around Cheliax and other places...
And a good read is anything with Verian Jeggare and Radovan They are from Egorian in Cheliax. And Jeggare is the richest family in Avistan, even more so than the royal family of Cheliax so they are the banking family of Cheliax and they founded Corvosa in Varisia...
http://paizo.com/pathfinder/tales/serial is the link to Webfiction on This site and scroll to the very bottom and there is a short story with them in it :) Wich is a jumping off for the Novel they are in Prince of Wolves :)
I stand corrected, Cheliax dosent have its own language, they speak Taldane (Common), that it had spoken Chelaxian was a typo in the Original writing. But they are snobs and would like to think so ;) And Korvosa does want to be back undeer Chelaxian rule :)
Oh and you could let one or more of the players start with and extra level, One level in Aristocrat :) Say aristocrat/Maage or Aristocrat/Paladin etc... That would link them to the town and its only concidered half a level anyway... and dosnt make them go up an Effective Character Level... As for Paladin if you think they are too blunt, go Batman. The Original Batman from the 40's to the 80's and now in the new Brave and the Bold Cartoon is more what Mr. Kane conceived of. Argueably Lawful Good and argueably a Rogue/Fighter... So why not a Rogue/Paladin? Use the stealth, Disable Devise, Climb etc to get around and get into the evil villains fortress, and the Diplomacy and Bluff like the aristocrat to get around the nobles, and the slight of hand to get the keys from the evil guards, and then face off the evil villain head on as Batman would. Sneak Attacks against abberations and other Supermonsters only, :) because hey, anything less would be unsporting ! And unpaladin Like... They dont have to be thought of as European Paladins, they can be Lawful Good Sohei/Ninja-style Paladins :) Light Chainmail shirts, dressed in black, ready to jump out at the evil enemy defiling the temple...
Oh BTW the Goddess Sarenrae fills the bill for the sneaky Paladin as her Chirch is outlawed in Taldor and her Clerics have to hide and be clandestine there and they have some spells that they use to identify each other...
In the Taldor Guide...
Oops had another horrible thought ;) Monk/Paladin of Sarenrae ;)