For those smaller companies to survive someone still needs to buy their stuff. Period. That's all I was calling for. I love Paizo and I love Pathfinder (why do I keep saying this?) but I think monoliths tend to breed brand loyalty, and brand loyalty breeds closed-mindedness. I know people that only drink Pepsi products, which is asinine, because Faygo is also tasty....and that's why we sell more than 20,000 gaming products we *don't* publish right here on paizo.com!
Which is just one more reason to choose Pepsi...er...Paizo!
Everyone should go buy some of that stuff!
My understanding (based largely on anecdotal comments and stuff I made up) is that ...Perhaps the funniest thing I've read all day!
Thanks for that!
Yeah, my co-workers just all turned to look at me to see what I was laughing at. Um... work stuff, nevermind. As you were.
4E is not (by far) perfectly balanced, but it does not show the insane differences that are inherent in 3.5-based games (Wizards + CoDZilla vs. Melee Chars).Which PF has also fixed, without completely changing everything to be the same and making a product that is, to me, not very fun to play.
While I love to play PF, I have to disagree. Wiz and CoDZilla are still inherently more powerful in later levels, and if I remember correctly, paizo staff banned the people from the forum who presented the mathematical analyses as proof for that.
It's not a big problem though, because people are used to these discrepancies from 3.5 (and from most fantasy literature) but PF had the amazing chance to really balance 3.5, and they didn't. For people who don't care about balance, it doesn't matter, but for the people who do (like me) it's a bit sad.
But again, balanced or not, 3.5 can be amazing fun, as well as PF, 4E, AD&D and most other systems too...
...
And finally, at least where I live, RPGs have become a niche product to a much larger extent. 10 years ago, you could find some RPG products in any bookstore and large department stores. Now, you need to go to a specialist game shop... (or the internet, which is good for existing players but doesn't grow the market).
I have noticed the exact opposite. 10 years or more ago, I couldn't find anything at all related to D&D or any roleplaying game in a major store. Perhaps one would have a core rulebook over with the comics or something like that. Now, every Boarders or Barns and Noble I go to has at least 1 shelf, often 2 devoted to roleplaying games. Some have better selections than others, but this is a new thing. I find the number of people I know familiar with and accepting of roleplaying games has grown, and I can only think that the market is growing, not shrinking, because of this.
I have noticed the exact opposite. 10 years or more ago, I couldn't find anything at all related to D&D or any roleplaying game in a major store. Perhaps one would have a core rulebook over with the comics or something like that. Now, every Boarders or Barns and Noble I go to has at least 1 shelf, often 2 devoted to roleplaying games. Some have better selections than others, but this is a new thing. I find the number of people I know familiar with and accepting of roleplaying games has grown, and I can only think that the market is growing, not shrinking, because of this....
And finally, at least where I live, RPGs have become a niche product to a much larger extent. 10 years ago, you could find some RPG products in any bookstore and large department stores. Now, you need to go to a specialist game shop... (or the internet, which is good for existing players but doesn't grow the market).
Maybe the situation is different here in Europe. Every bookstore used to carry DSA (Das Schwarze Auge/The Dark Eye, the dominant system here) and the current D&D....but no more :(
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Here's an interesting point:
I think 4E caused the OGL to finally do what it was created to do in the first place. Up till then we had a glut of under supported, poorly developed shovel suppliments. WoTC's player base was spread out over a dozen companies depending on taste and well, frankly the market was dying a death by inches.
4E took a solid chunck of paying supporters away and created what amounted to a new market from the original base. It catered to a new ideology of organized play and online support. Sure it had false starts with WoTC pulling their pdf support, but eventually it settled onto a profitable DDI/event/suppliment cycle.
The rest of the market basically went into a tailspin trying to figure out what to do. The GSL was not out yet and many of the small publisher tanked (or shifted to other projects). Paizo steps in and says they'll support the OGL/SRD but wants to make revisions. Progress happens to the 3.X mess and the rules are streamlined to ease of use, but otherwise it still supports the original development.
The rest of the market either alines with WoTC or Paizo (or both if they had the capital to support twin development) or went on to other projects. (Like Green Ronin's shift for Dragon Age. Fantasy Flight jumping on the Warhammer bandwagon.). What 'we' as consumers get are two viable alternatives both steeped in the mindset of d20 mechanics, both are supported and growing markets from the decaying original market base, and both offer a range of 3rd party options.
Net win, sure the RPG market had to go into a dive to have it happen, but hey we get two versions of the classic and the Indy market blooms. I'd say it's a great time to be a roleplayer.
4E is not (by far) perfectly balanced, but it does not show the insane differences that are inherent in 3.5-based games (Wizards + CoDZilla vs. Melee Chars).Which PF has also fixed, without completely changing everything to be the same and making a product that is, to me, not very fun to play.
While I love to play PF, I have to disagree. Wiz and CoDZilla are still inherently more powerful in later levels, and if I remember correctly, paizo staff banned the people from the forum who presented the mathematical analyses as proof for that.
It's not a big problem though, because people are used to these discrepancies from 3.5 (and from most fantasy literature) but PF had the amazing chance to really balance 3.5, and they didn't. For people who don't care about balance, it doesn't matter, but for the people who do (like me) it's a bit sad.
But again, balanced or not, 3.5 can be amazing fun, as well as PF, 4E, AD&D and most other systems too...
I don't like to prolong an argument, but you're wrong. CoDZilla is just gone. Wildshaping really isn't what it used to be and stops being powerful around level 10, and there is no more persistent spell, and the offending cleric spells were changed as well as fighters being beefed to high heaven.
4e is as close to perfectly balanced as you will get. Because every class is exactly the same. My problem with 4e is that it doesn't reward creative problem solving, and the published adventures (as with the AP, the only fair way to judge how the designers feel the game should be played) are long dungeoncrawling slogs, combat after combat with brief pauses for skill challenges which obviate roleplay decisions.
I don't like to prolong an argument, but you're wrong. CoDZilla is just gone. Wildshaping really isn't what it used to be and stops being powerful around level 10, and there is no more persistent spell, and the offending cleric spells were changed as well as fighters being beefed to high heaven.
I disagree, but yes, that's a topic for another thread.
My problem with 4e is that it doesn't reward creative problem solving,
That probably should be
My problem with 4e is my 4E DM didn't reward creative problem solving,
;)
and the published adventures (as with the AP, the only fair way to judge how the designers feel the game should be played) are long dungeoncrawling slogs, combat after combat with brief pauses for skill challenges which obviate roleplay decisions.
Yes, the APs are crap. I completely agree.
The basic 4E system however, is great, at least in my not so humble opinion.
The basic 4E system however, is great, at least in my not so humble opinion.
I like the 4e system. It's just NOT d&d.
Also a topic for another thread, but as excited as I am about new Dark Sun material coming out, they are just completely effing it up and it makes me cry.
4e is as close to perfectly balanced as you will get. Because every class is exactly the same.
False, but let's move on.
My problem with 4e is that it doesn't reward creative problem solving,
Also false. 4e was designed to support creative problem solving by application of existing rules.
and the published adventures (as with the AP, the only fair way to judge how the designers feel the game should be played) are long dungeoncrawling slogs, combat after combat with brief pauses for skill challenges which obviate roleplay decisions.
...because that's fun? How do you propose that they should write role-playing into their adventures? Come on, go ahead. Explain how you are going to explicitly define what, when, and how role-playing should occur in the adventure.
"People that play 4e roleplay just as much as pathfinder players, and pathfinder players enjoy tactical combat just as much as 4e players."
That's really not true.
4e player says "Our group roleplays in 4e just fine"
LilithTroll says "Bullship, Gaming theory says that's impossible"
Hmm... which one looks foolish?
The people that keep pointing out that their beliefs are far superior to all other beliefs, and shouldn't even be questioned - of course.
What? Which side is that? It doesn't mater. Both are doing it.
4e is as close to perfectly balanced as you will get. Because every class is exactly the same.False, but let's move on.
My problem with 4e is that it doesn't reward creative problem solving,Also false. 4e was designed to support creative problem solving by application of existing rules.
and the published adventures (as with the AP, the only fair way to judge how the designers feel the game should be played) are long dungeoncrawling slogs, combat after combat with brief pauses for skill challenges which obviate roleplay decisions....because that's fun? How do you propose that they should write role-playing into their adventures? Come on, go ahead. Explain how you are going to explicitly define what, when, and how role-playing should occur in the adventure.
*sigh* Is it not okay for me not to like 4e as much as pathfinder? My observations are not false, and I could go into depth about how the rules keep people from solving problems with anything other than combat, but it doesn't matter. Your opinion is set and you're spoiling for a fight. You won't find one here, move along.
I like the 4e system. It's just NOT d&d.
ONYD
Your opinion is set and you're spoiling for a fight. You won't find one here, move along.
Fight! Fight! Fight!
My observations are not false, and I could go into depth about how the rules keep people from solving problems with anything other than combat,
That assertion is inherently false because whether combat can be solved by a fight or not is wholly dependent on what the DM allows - just like every other single d20 system. Good job, you just proved Pathfinder prevents problems from being solved with anything but combat.
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I just want Paizo to sell so many books and products that they have to hire a SQL Monkey (preferably a Celestial SQL monkey like myself), so that I can quit my current job, move to Seattle, and work for what is obviously the greatest company on Earth. That's my dream. Will it ever happen? Probably not, but I'd love nothing more than to work for Vic and get in office games. That would be boiled-down heaven on a shingle.
I assume Ross is the SQL Monkey and Gary is his SQL Grinder.
My observations are not false, and I could go into depth about how the rules keep people from solving problems with anything other than combat,That assertion is inherently false because whether combat can be solved by a fight or not is wholly dependent on what the DM allows - just like every other single d20 system. Good job, you just proved Pathfinder prevents problems from being solved with anything but combat.
Thanks for ignoring what I'm saying, putting words in my mouth, and making straw man arguments. You win. I concede. I've seen the light. 4e IS the best system ever. Happy?
Okay folks... let's just stop the simmering edition war skirmish here and now. That's not what this thread was started for. And if that's what it keeps doing, I'll just lock the thread because it's become tiresome.
Okay, throughout this thread, and all the edition war threads, I've yet to see anyone mention this:
PaiZo and WiZards both have a Z in them, and in both cases, it's proceeded by an I.
Okay, there it is.
You are all now free to discuss.
Okay folks... let's just stop the simmering edition war skirmish here and now. That's not what this thread was started for. And if that's what it keeps doing, I'll just lock the thread because it's become tiresome.
*walks away looking dejected*
Thanks for ignoring what I'm saying,
You said you can prove by the rules. You did not so I can only guess what you were going to say and counter with the obvious counter that the result of all encounters in any d20 system is decided by the DM. 3.0, 3.5, 4e, PF. Fact.
Okay folks... let's just stop the simmering edition war skirmish here and now. That's not what this thread was started for. And if that's what it keeps doing, I'll just lock the thread because it's become tiresome.Okay, throughout this thread, and all the edition war threads, I've yet to see anyone mention this:
PaiZo and WiZards both have a Z in them, and in both cases, it's proceeded by an I.
Okay, there it is.
You are all know free to discuss.
Oh.
MY.GOD!!
*is eaten by a shoggoth*
Creative Director
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I assume folks who continued to rattle sabers after my previous post simply didn't see the post at the time I was creating it. It's been 5 minutes, now, though... so let's leave the ugly parts of this thread behind. This includes you, Cartigan, since you've posted twice in an attempt to keep the argument going since my post...
Okay folks... let's just stop the simmering edition war skirmish here and now. That's not what this thread was started for. And if that's what it keeps doing, I'll just lock the thread because it's become tiresome.
In the interest of bringing this thread back to the original topic, would you mind telling us how many PF Core Rulebooks were sold online, and through retail? :)
You said you can prove by the rules. You did not so I can only guess what you were going to say and counter with the obvious counter that the result of all encounters in any d20 system is decided by the DM. 3.0, 3.5, 4e, PF. Fact.
Thanks for ignoring what I'm saying,
What I'm saying, and what you're ignoring, is that I'm not going to argue with you. JJ has asked edition wars to be stopped, I am acquiescing. (sp?)
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Creative Director
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In the interest of bringing this thread back to the original topic, would you mind telling us how many PF Core Rulebooks were sold online, and through retail? :)
We actually don't release those numbers to the public as a matter of company policy. What I can say, though, is that the total success of the PF Core Rulebook line and the Adventure Path line are equal in their ass-kicking powers of making Paizo employees really rather proud and happy! :-) (And the other lines are doing quite well also, so that's the nice, expensive icing on the cake!)
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What I'm saying, and what you're ignoring, is that I'm not going to argue with you. JJ has asked edition wars to be stopped, I am acquiescing. (sp?)You said you can prove by the rules. You did not so I can only guess what you were going to say and counter with the obvious counter that the result of all encounters in any d20 system is decided by the DM. 3.0, 3.5, 4e, PF. Fact.
Thanks for ignoring what I'm saying,
Good point. Never mind.
That will be hard to find out without owning stock in both companies. The best you can probably get is anecdotal evidence.
For what it's worth, to compare popularity, I did a search of the Gencon events a few months ago, comparing different versions of D&D. Pathfinder had the most events, followed by 4e, then 3.5. There were just a couple of events for earlier D&D editions.
Of course, that doesn't necessarily reflect sales, and all events are not equal. Some events will be for 5 or 6 players, while others may be for 100 players. But it's the best info I got.
EDIT: ninja'ed by JJ. As suspected, the numbers are not easy to get (as in not available at all).
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I assume folks who continued to rattle sabers after my previous post simply didn't see the post at the time I was creating it. It's been 5 minutes, now, though... so let's leave the ugly parts of this thread behind.
Ay Aye Captain! On the note of retailers:
How is Pathfinder put on display at your local retailers? I've seen 4E books stacked up like wood with the Pathfinder books layed out like a display. And in another location the inverse it true. (Making it bloody hard to spot an Adventure Path I'm looking for.) I'm kinda curious as to how they present the product at your local store.
Pure anecdotal evidence, but I snapped this pic recently in Game Empire. This is the biggest game store in the San Diego area. It's hard to tell but the entire upper shelf is Pathfinder products. The fact that they have dramatically increased the shelf space in the last 6 months means it is doing well in the area. Of course, there is about an equal amount of space opposite it being occupied by 4E material, so that is still going strong as well.
That shelf used to be the WoD area, so if anyone is dying it is White Wolf. I think they killed themselves by releasing an entirely new world with drastically different feels for the line. They revised rules were brilliant. I can understand why they may have felt they'd written everything that needed to be said about their old world, but in the end they alienated their existing fans too much. Case in point, I own a fair amount of the new Changeling line, but I ran a one shot this weekend using the more familiar 2nd Edition books.
I find it interesting that some people say the hobby is shrinking. Is the hobby really shrinking, or has it just become more diverse? I know that times are a little rough, and I only have a limited gaming budget. So I have to make tough choices about what to buy. I'd wager that there are more people playing role-playing games now than ever before. They may be buying less books on average, but that is probably more an indication of the overall economy than anything else.
I think it's a great time to be a gamer. There are more systems being produced and actively supported now than ever. Games I would love to be able to afford more products from: Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Traveller, Mouse Guard, Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkeness, Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy. Games I don't have been keep wanting to check out: Eclipse Phase, Trail of Cthulhu, Cthulhutech, Savage Worlds, Song of Fire and Ice, Dragon Age, and probably many more. If you step back and look at the big picture, there's a lot more role-playing stuff getting produced than ever. That wouldn't be the case if the market couldn't bear it. Not everything works out, and some licenses have moved around. I say again, it is a great time to be a gamer. The edition wars are over, and everyone wins!
We actually don't release those numbers to the public as a matter of company policy. What I can say, though, is that the total success of the PF Core Rulebook line and the Adventure Path line are equal in their ass-kicking powers of making Paizo employees really rather proud and happy! :-) (And the other lines are doing quite well also, so that's the nice, expensive icing on the cake!)
I don't think it's a secret to many here that Pathfinder RPG has been much more successful than I expected. I think it finally sunk in at Gencon, where I saw the magically disappearing mountain of corebooks.
For once, I'm OK with having been completely wrong. :)
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Pure anecdotal evidence, but I snapped this pic recently in Game Empire.
Is that Weapon of the Gods down there? It is! That's a collectors item these days. OMG, OMG, OMG, *koff* I mean..man that's a really nice Pathfinder display.
There's nothing wise about being oatmeal - lukewarm.
Take a side and defend it or be ambivalent.
Let. It. Go.
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I can't talk about other game stores but at my FLGS here in Minnesota (http://villagegames.net/) there is a very heavy slant towards the Pathfinder RPG as well as some others (The warhammer 40k RPG, Savage Worlds, Anima) over 4th edition.
It's not really a 4e shoppe though. Most of the regulars either weren't impressed with it and didn't switch, or switched and then got bored of it just about when the Pathfinder Beta book was out. Village sold quite a few beta books.
There are say probably about 10-ish or so biweekly Pathfinder campaigns going on at the moment, a game of Mechwarrior, Anima, Blue Planet and probably a few others that happen regularly at the shoppe. 4e has a monthly game day and the encounters get run but I'm not 100% sure exactly how many people are showing up for it currently.
Case in point, I own a fair amount of the new Changeling line, but I ran a one shot this weekend using the more familiar 2nd Edition books.
There is a new Changeling line???
I loved the old Changeling system. The idea of fey creatures mimicking/pilfering/using the powers of everyone else in the scene was awesome. It really lead to a cooperative mentality between players, more than other systems, in my opinion.
I will have to check out the new system.
That said, I think you are right. For a brief time, WOD outsold D&D, and I was one of the people buying their products. I haven't purchased any of Whitewolf's new stuff, and likely won't, even if the new Changeling is loaded with awsomesauce.
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Morgen, you actually have people playing Anima near you? Wow.
Around here I'd have to say the top 5 games played (based on running campaigns, what I see on and flying off the shelf )are:
Pathfinder
D&D 4E
Dark Hersey
Legend of the 5 Rings 4E
Dragon Age
Keep in mind, Central Florida btw, use to be WOD country. This is quite a change of pace.
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From a cross-post over at rpg.net:
Crothian;12528392 As a Pathfinder fan and player I have seen this from my own local stores. They say Pathfinder does out sell 4e. However, none of the 4e people I know buys from the lcoal stores. They use the DDI and buy the books on line for great savings.
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I can't talk about other game stores but at my FLGS here in Minnesota (http://villagegames.net/) there is a very heavy slant towards the Pathfinder RPG as well as some others (The warhammer 40k RPG, Savage Worlds, Anima) over 4th edition.
As another Twin Cities native I can say that the effect of Pathfinder on The Source (easily the largest game store in the area) has been extremely noticeable). A year ago they had some Pathfinder product, but when I stopped in a week or so ago the change was pretty dramatic. They've been given easily an equally important spot in the store as their 4E line of product (which as others have noticed exists in stacks).
They have yet to implement Society games (I know, something I should try to do), but they do have a nightly Pathfinder game (every night except Saturday) that is being very heavily advertised.
A little closer to my neck of the woods Dreamers also has a pretty solid collection of Pathfinder Material and when I spoke to the store owner she indicated that it's been selling quite well.
There's nothing wise about being oatmeal - lukewarm.
Hey! Who's maligning oatmeal here? While it may not be wise to be oatmeal, it's full of soluble fiber and that's good for you. Plus, if you use a recipe like Alton Brown's from Good Eats, you can make it overnight in a crockpot with dried fruit. It's hard to clean up, but it's damn tasty!
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However, I organize both PFS and Encounters. Both have grown steadily over the last few months. Which is encouraging in many ways. Interestingly, we do have some crossover.Out of curiosity, what's the player base like? Is is largely new players? Lapsed players?
When it comes to PFS I see a number of 3e veterans. Only one of my PFS players are people who have not played since 1e. All of the other players in PFS have some level of 3e experience.
With 4e I see a number of brand new players mixed with some converts from 3e. However, there is another group present that I would have never predicted. There are lapsed players from 1e and 2e who, for various reasons, skipped 3e.
That last group is fascinating and their take on the game has to be one of the more enlightening points I have had during this whole transition. There are a variety of thoughts from these players, but the overall feeling is one of positiveness.
To put some things in context, I currently organize 5 tables of D&D Encounters, usually averaging a total 30 players a week. Sometimes we have players who come in and, for whatever reason, don't continue. That is the nature of organized play. If everyone had stayed, I would likely be running nearly 8 tables at this point. I am so happy it didn't fall out that way. :)
The primary reason I think we saw some drop at the beginning of Encounters season two had more to do with setting than system. I lost a few regulars who simply didn't seem to enjoy Dark Sun very much. But, we have leveled off and are now gaining a new player roughly every two weeks. I am gaining a new player this week, in fact. Who, in a totally unrelated way, is incredibly hot. Gods bless D&D.
I organize two tables of PFS averaging about 9 players a week. However, we did suffer a rather dramatic drop in players recently followed by some re-growth. I still don't have exact reasons from everyone on why they left, so it is hard to pull information on that. I was told one of our GMs had chased some people away, but I don't think that was the only reason. The recent return of some players is likely connected to the departure of that GM.
Before that drop we were operating 3 tables with a total average of 10 players a week. It looks like we might be heading back towards that number again, which is why I mention that PFS is growing in this area.
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From a cross-post over at rpg.net:
Crothian;12528392 As a Pathfinder fan and player I have seen this from my own local stores. They say Pathfinder does out sell 4e. However, none of the 4e people I know buys from the lcoal stores. They use the DDI and buy the books on line for great savings.
Ah, Yes. This is indeed my experience as well. Amazon offers a sizable discount to the books. The Pathfinder material however gets a rather robust trade localy. Also keep in mind that store owners can influence things greatly. Two of the store near me have very Pathfinder friendly owners so the books get a little more 'love', and free press.
Pure anecdotal evidence, but I snapped this pic recently in Game Empire.Is that Weapon of the Gods down there? It is! That's a collectors item these days. OMG, OMG, OMG, *koff* I mean..man that's a really nice Pathfinder display.
I don't know, I'll double check next time I'm there. It is a really nice store. I live in Orange County, but I stop in every time I get the chance.
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I find it interesting that the sucess of PF tends to be very regional (certain areas tend to have concentration of players). I wonder if this has to do with having a certain amount of early adopters that tends to propell a game system (since RPGs are cooperative, 1 DM adopting PF might mean 3-4 players adopting to the system or some such)to achieve critical mass and thus continually self propegating it's sucess. I think one of the reasons why PF is so sucessful in the NYC area is because of the strong PFS society here, primarily propelled by a few people.
Of course, a paizo-equivalent of DDI would be the best way, but I doubt that's realistic quite some time, and while there will be some open source alternatives, they won't be competitive against DDI because paizo cannot reasonably allow them to use all of their material and the artwork. This would impact their core business too hard.
Incidentally, the subscription nature of the DDI was one of the reasons I chose not to get fully invested in 4e. I admire that they include all of their materials as resources for players, but the cost:use ratio for me just wasn't likely to be worth it for me, given that I saw myself buying books in addition to paying a monthly fee to play the game, if I were going to get on board. I'd much prefer a one-time fee to download the tool and pay for updates that I want, with access to the code for house rules and homemade content.