...
This is why we can't have nice things.
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I don't know, I'll double check next time I'm there. It is a really nice store. I live in Orange County, but I stop in every time I get the chance.
*laughs* Thanks Deinol, but that's okay. I'm spending enough money giving Paizo, AEG, and Green Ronin all my spare coin. I just geeked out over seeing a retailer actually having it on the shelf. It's not often you see one of the classics of high Borgstormancy out in the wild these days. (Not including Exalted, which is drying up.)
...This is why we can't have nice things.
I thought I was the reason we can't have nice things.
I'm spending enough money giving Paizo, AEG, and Green Ronin all my spare coin.
Gah! Green Ronin just fired me with DCA.
There is a new Changeling line???
Changeling: The Lost has been out for a couple years now, so "new" is relative. It has a very different feel than Changeling: The Dreaming. My friend described it as "a game about recovering from child abuse." They made it a lot more dark and creepy, which is why most of the existing fans didn't take to it as much. Changeling used to be light-hearted and fun to play.
I thought I was the reason we can't have nice things....This is why we can't have nice things.
THESE are why we can't have nice things.
Gah! Green Ronin just fired me with DCA.
Ok I have to ask, why?
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You know we've all had these discussions before, but I'm going to try and take this in another direction and more than likely be ignored...
Its good for WOTC that Pathfinder and all the other RPGs exist..
And vice versa...
Here is an anecdotal story...
Economists examined stores in a city to discover if it would be better to have similar stores grouped together in certain parts of the city, or is it better to be spread apart.
One theory is that its better to be off by yourself as you stand out from everyone else.
As it turns out, that is not really the case.
Economically it was discovered that businesses that did similar things in a certain district of town did better than those that stood alone.
For example jewelry stores in New York actually perform better closer together rather than spread out. The reason economists say is that it allows customers to comparison shop easier as they move from one shop to another and get what they want. Shops who are successful learn to standout from their competition without distancing themselves physically.
So how does this tie to RPGs, Well this is an opinion, but as I see it. All the major RPGs really want to have each other around.
Player have different needs, and one system can't rule them all. But chances are that if you have tried one RPG, and found it lacking, you are very much likely to try another, and so on, but if you never try an RPG you have a zero chance of trying another RPG.
It was said that the OGL would revive the flagging RPG industry and to a certain point I would say that it did for a while. In its absence
I feel that published RPGs, any published RPGs help the industry as a whole as it elevates the visibility of any RPG company.
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I honestly think that having two companies competing for market leadership is just about the best thing that can happen to any given industry. That kind of competition gives both companies more incentive to innovate and produce quality products, and that tends to increase the size of the market, as it helps keep existing customers as well as attracting new customers. And *that* gives the smaller companies a bigger audience to attract.
The fact that Coke and Pepsi dominate the cola market certainly doesn't keep smaller companies from making great beverages.
I agree completely.
Incidentally, the subscription nature of the DDI was one of the reasons I chose not to get fully invested in 4e. I admire that they include all of their materials as resources for players, but the cost:use ratio for me just wasn't likely to be worth it for me, given that I saw myself buying books in addition to paying a monthly fee to play the game, if I were going to get on board. I'd much prefer a one-time fee to download the tool and pay for updates that I want, with access to the code for house rules and homemade content.
But you can have it like this... there is a 'houserule' option, and you can use the char builder without renewing the sub. You could just subscribe for a month per year, get all the updates and then wait another 11 months.
I would like a usable character builder for PF, or for 3.5, but all programs that I know have clearly been designed without a user interface professional; while the DDI Char Builder is far from perfect, at least it's useable without getting eye cancer and starting a barbarian rage because of idiotic UI decisions...
Another problem with 3.5 materials is that half of the stuff that people use is still owned by WotC and cannot be used in a third-party program...any 3.5 character builder without e.g. the stuff in the Complete splatbooks is just marginally useful.
Too bad. =/
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Here's an interesting point:
I think 4E caused the OGL to finally do what it was created to do in the first place. Up till then we had a glut of under supported, poorly developed shovel suppliments. WoTC's player base was spread out over a dozen companies depending on taste and well, frankly the market was dying a death by inches.
4E took a solid chunck of paying supporters away and created what amounted to a new market from the original base. It catered to a new ideology of organized play and online support. Sure it had false starts with WoTC pulling their pdf support, but eventually it settled onto a profitable DDI/event/suppliment cycle.
The rest of the market basically went into a tailspin trying to figure out what to do. The GSL was not out yet and many of the small publisher tanked (or shifted to other projects). Paizo steps in and says they'll support the OGL/SRD but wants to make revisions. Progress happens to the 3.X mess and the rules are streamlined to ease of use, but otherwise it still supports the original development.
The rest of the market either alines with WoTC or Paizo (or both if they had the capital to support twin development) or went on to other projects. (Like Green Ronin's shift for Dragon Age. Fantasy Flight jumping on the Warhammer bandwagon.). What 'we' as consumers get are two viable alternatives both steeped in the mindset of d20 mechanics, both are supported and growing markets from the decaying original market base, and both offer a range of 3rd party options.
Net win, sure the RPG market had to go into a dive to have it happen, but hey we get two versions of the classic and the Indy market blooms. I'd say it's a great time to be a roleplayer.
Very well said.
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I don't know, I'll double check next time I'm there. It is a really nice store. I live in Orange County, but I stop in every time I get the chance.Pure anecdotal evidence, but I snapped this pic recently in Game Empire.Is that Weapon of the Gods down there? It is! That's a collectors item these days. OMG, OMG, OMG, *koff* I mean..man that's a really nice Pathfinder display.
Ironic that GEs sister store in Pasadena has pushed 4e very heavily and did not make huge strides to support PF product. It has gotten better though as time has gone by - more PF books, but in the beginning I had to special order my PF books at GE (Pasadena).
Seems to me - again as a personal experience - that Pathfinder is doing well and is the perceived successor to D&D in many places. This is from what is played/heavily stocked at The Warhouse (Long Beach), Last Grenadier (Burbank), Emerald Knights (Burbank) and few other stores which carry rpg products but are not 100% focused on rpgs.
I did see some evidence of D&D Encounters being promoted at Emerald Knights comics and games, which imo seems to be an intelligent way to promote 4e and expose people to the game. They are also going to be running PFS games there also so who knows, I'll keep checking there to see how things are moving along.
[side rant]D&D Encounters is similar to the Friday Night Magic events pushed by wotc and is a brilliant idea. As much as I like PFS mods and PFS I would like to see more promotion of the rpg - be it promtional quickstart packages, basic PF version, and a better overall promotion campaign. [/side rant]
So over the last few years in the Los Angeles area I have seen store owners hate 3.5 (due to the 4e push and issues with their remaining 3.0/3/5 stock), openly hostile and bitter towards rpgs and d20 gaming to promoting 4e and then to a mix of Pathfinder and 4e.
From what store owners have told me (I always ask) most now say they play PF and that it has since become their primary seller from their rpgs lines.
Edit: Just my personal reporting on this - not stating law or edition flaming in any way
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"People that play 4e roleplay just as much as pathfinder players, and pathfinder players enjoy tactical combat just as much as 4e players."
That's really not true.
4e player says "Our group roleplays in 4e just fine"
LilithTroll says "Bullship, Gaming theory says that's impossible"
Hmm... which one looks foolish?
4e players have no proof that their groups roleplay 4e just fine.
Nor do they have any theory which supports their position.And, frankly, if what the larger group believes is the truth, it'd be true that all the planets revolve around the Earth.
You keep using that word[/those words]. I do not think it means what you think it means. -Inigo Montoya
My own anecdote to toss out:
Talking with the owner of my local FLGS, for a while now they've been selling PF and 4e at a respective rate of 60% and 40% of their D&D sales, with PF steadily increasing from the first of the year when they hit parity.
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"People that play 4e roleplay just as much as pathfinder players, and pathfinder players enjoy tactical combat just as much as 4e players."
That's really not true.
4e player says "Our group roleplays in 4e just fine"
LilithTroll says "Bullship, Gaming theory says that's impossible"
Hmm... which one looks foolish?
The people that keep pointing out that their beliefs are far superior to all other beliefs, and shouldn't even be questioned - of course.
What? Which side is that? It doesn't mater. Both are doing it.
There's nothing wise about being oatmeal - lukewarm.
Take a side and defend it or be ambivalent.I do fervantly believe that it is possible to discuss the relative merits of the two game systems without edition warring and I feel I've been trying to do that, but with respect to James Jacobs, I'll just drop my part in the discussion.
Is that like the two party system in congress, because that is working soooooo well?
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Is that like the two party system in congress, because that is working soooooo well?"People that play 4e roleplay just as much as pathfinder players, and pathfinder players enjoy tactical combat just as much as 4e players."
That's really not true.
4e player says "Our group roleplays in 4e just fine"
LilithTroll says "Bullship, Gaming theory says that's impossible"
Hmm... which one looks foolish?
The people that keep pointing out that their beliefs are far superior to all other beliefs, and shouldn't even be questioned - of course.
What? Which side is that? It doesn't mater. Both are doing it.
There's nothing wise about being oatmeal - lukewarm.
Take a side and defend it or be ambivalent.I do fervantly believe that it is possible to discuss the relative merits of the two game systems without edition warring and I feel I've been trying to do that, but with respect to James Jacobs, I'll just drop my part in the discussion.
Troll. Feed. Don't. Please.
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Troll. Feed. Don't. Please.Is that like the two party system in congress, because that is working soooooo well?"People that play 4e roleplay just as much as pathfinder players, and pathfinder players enjoy tactical combat just as much as 4e players."
That's really not true.
4e player says "Our group roleplays in 4e just fine"
LilithTroll says "Bullship, Gaming theory says that's impossible"
Hmm... which one looks foolish?
The people that keep pointing out that their beliefs are far superior to all other beliefs, and shouldn't even be questioned - of course.
What? Which side is that? It doesn't mater. Both are doing it.
There's nothing wise about being oatmeal - lukewarm.
Take a side and defend it or be ambivalent.I do fervantly believe that it is possible to discuss the relative merits of the two game systems without edition warring and I feel I've been trying to do that, but with respect to James Jacobs, I'll just drop my part in the discussion.
But, but, but................ :/
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Going back on the topic, what's the status of foreign language versions of both games ?
PF has:
French
Italian
German4ed has:
Polish (in a curious move, PHB and DMG are out while MM is ... hmm ... on 4th month of a delay ...)
Wow, cool for PF.
I would have thought it would have been the other way around considering available resources.
As a relative newcomer to these boards may I just say:
WHAT THE HELL WAS ALL THAT?
Confused, as always I remain
- Senator
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As a relative newcomer to these boards may I just say:
WHAT THE HELL WAS ALL THAT?
Confused, as always I remain
- Senator
Some times it is just best to look the other way until the trolls either explode or go away. I like watching them implode, it is oh so much more fun. However most times ignoring them until they go hungry and look somewhere else is the better option.
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As a relative newcomer to these boards may I just say:
WHAT THE HELL WAS ALL THAT?
Confused, as always I remain
- Senator
A faint echo of Edition Wars. Be glad that you weren't around here 2 years ago, when the mighty armies of 4ed fans and 3ed/PF loyalists clashed back and forth, leaving behind scorched earth, burned out gamers and lots of work for moderators :)
As a relative newcomer to these boards may I just say:
WHAT THE HELL WAS ALL THAT?
Confused, as always I remain
- Senator
Licks Senator.
Going back on the topic, what's the status of foreign language versions of both games ?
PF has:
French
Italian
German4ed has:
Polish (in a curious move, PHB and DMG are out while MM is ... hmm ... on 4th month of a delay ...)
A friend of mine has a copy of the 4e Player's Handbook 1 in Japanese.
As a relative newcomer to these boards may I just say:
WHAT THE HELL WAS ALL THAT?
Confused, as always I remain
- Senator
With all due respect, man, don't ask, and treasure your ignorance. Seriously.
Where, I mean WHERE is Scott Betts when you need him ?
He just moved across country for a summer internship. I'm sure he'll be back online soon enough.
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Going back on the topic, what's the status of foreign language versions of both games ?
PF has:
French
Italian
German4ed has:
Polish (in a curious move, PHB and DMG are out while MM is ... hmm ... on 4th month of a delay ...)
4E has an italian edition too (by 25 Edition).
Regarding the italian translation of PF, it had a rough start (a bit of delay with AP issues and a first printing of the Core Rulebook with a godawful number of typos), but thanks to a steady trickle of AP issues translated - almost all of Second Darkness - a number of supplements, and a greatly timed published Bestiary (without the typos!) it seems to have picked up really well with the gaming community.
It has picked up well enough to have a second printing of the Core Rulebook looming on the horizon (end of the month), and some eagerly awaited products - mainly the Gamemastery Guide and the APG, but Council of Thieves too - announced or already in the works.
At my FLGS, translated PF products are picking up space on the shelves, slowly kicking out WW hardcovers of the new WoD.
Ironic that GEs sister store in Pasadena has pushed 4e very heavily and did not make huge strides to support PF product. It has gotten better though as time has gone by - more PF books, but in the beginning I had to special order my PF books at GE (Pasadena).
I live in OC and have friends in SD so I've not seen the Pasadena store. In general the growth of Pathfinder sections in stores has been slow but steady. The first 6 months of Pathfinder there were timid offerings in the OC stores. In the last 6 months it has grown considerably. If it isn't too far out of your way I suggest checking out Dice House Games (Fullerton), they are pretty awesome (and the furthest north store in my typical range.)
Lisa wins the thread.
That's not fair, she always wins the thread!
Although some places (international markets) probably take a little longer to get their copies. Also, who knows how long Amazon will take to get into gear after the release.
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Ironic that GEs sister store in Pasadena has pushed 4e very heavily and did not make huge strides to support PF product. It has gotten better though as time has gone by - more PF books, but in the beginning I had to special order my PF books at GE (Pasadena).I live in OC and have friends in SD so I've not seen the Pasadena store. In general the growth of Pathfinder sections in stores has been slow but steady. The first 6 months of Pathfinder there were timid offerings in the OC stores. In the last 6 months it has grown considerably. If it isn't too far out of your way I suggest checking out Dice House Games (Fullerton), they are pretty awesome (and the furthest north store in my typical range.)
Thanks for the heads up and I will check them out. I usually hit Brookhurst hobbies when in the OC so Fullerton isn't much of stretch from that point out.
And yeah I agree with you on the PF thing being slow going in the beginning. I think many stores were reluctant after the 3.5 implosion and maybe were just hoping they would only have to stock one game (4e).
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The APG will be available at gen con IF you're at gen con. For me I won't likely get a copy until September.Just want to point out that the APG will also be available at all brick and mortar stores on the first day of GenCon as well. So nobody has it earlier than anybody else.
-Lisa
Well I'm hoping subscribers will have it a little earlier and if history repeats Amazon buyers will have it much later.
Creative Director
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Where, I mean WHERE is Scott Betts when you need him ?I'm going to say that this thread really doesn't/didn't need another person arguing/providing another person to argue with.
You're absolutely right. The thread looks like it's mostly getting back on track.
AKA: Edition Wars are one of the few ways to get me to lock threads, so don't do them.
Troll. Feed. Don't. Please.
Calling Lilith a troll is a bit much, don't you agree? :-/
What? Which side is that? It doesn't mater. Both are doing it.Hey, I'll have you know I'm trying to pull off a happy neutral here. Trying at least. ;)
But you see, you believe you are trying to pull off a happy medium. And you took my post as a challenge to that belief, and that triggered a response.
And that isn't condoned on these forums. Well, I mean that is what the readers are told when a poster finds the subject objectionable. They seem to ignore that behavior in posters they agree with...
Lisa wins the thread.
But can she dance to it?
LilithsThrall =/= Lilith nor are they affiliated.Troll. Feed. Don't. Please.Calling Lilith a troll is a bit much, don't you agree? :-/
I was using shorthand, sorry. ^^ I meant LilithsThrall, of course.
Going back on the topic, what's the status of foreign language versions of both games ?
PF has:
French
Italian
German4ed has:
Polish (in a curious move, PHB and DMG are out while MM is ... hmm ... on 4th month of a delay ...)
4th Ed has a French version published by playfactory(www.playfactory.fr)
Players Handbook first print ran June 2008
The APG will be available at gen con IF you're at gen con. For me I won't likely get a copy until September.Just want to point out that the APG will also be available at all brick and mortar stores on the first day of GenCon as well. So nobody has it earlier than anybody else.
-Lisa
Just to make sure things are copacetic, that's me you meant to quote. And if this is the case then I will be ecstatic! And I mean like genuinely giddy, because I adore my local store and want to support them whenever possible. Clearly I don't know the inner workings of your distribution model, I just know that it certainly hasn't been the case so far with trying to get PF products from the FLGS. Though that might have much to do with unanticipated popularity of early print runs, hopefully you know now just how much we all love you!
Lisa wins the thread.But can she dance to it?
She's the CEO. She can get one of her minions to dance for her. :P