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If so - awesome! My syringe-spear-toting bard villain (and his syringe-spear-toting minions) just gained access to a whole new range of options.
According to the d20PFSRD:
A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Potions vary incredibly in appearance. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures.
Does this mean that I can make potions of magic missile, blindness, dispel magic and scare?
Each of these spells targets creatures, so it sounds like they're valid potion choices.
If this is legal, would I get all of my missiles if I brewed the potion at a higher caster level? What would drinking (or getting syring'd with) a potion of magic missile "look" like?
Also, what about spells like vampiric touch, that have a target, but also a range of 'touch'? Does the potion's caster gain the hit points from the spell effect?
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There's an old saying which goes: read the entire rule before you post.
The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
Also, in the Creating Potions paragraph (grr Paizo, this should be duplicated in the Potions entry):
The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
So, yeah, you can make a potion of magic missile and hit yourself for 1d4+1 damage. :)
To rephrase Gorbacz, sure, go ahead, make the potions of doing-self-harm-for-force-damage, the potion of make-self-blind, the potion of negate-my-magic, and the potion of scare-self-witless, by all means!
Methinks you want a wand or two, Garden Tool;)
Interesting idea...yes, it looks like you could create self-destructive potions that you could inject with an injection spear. Sort of the poor man's Spell Storing enhancement.
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Lathiira and Gorbacz -- you might want to take a look at the stats for the injection spear. The point is that using that particular exotic weapon allows you to use potions (and poisons) on an enemy, not on yourself!
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There's an old saying which goes: read the entire rule before you post.
The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
Also, in the Creating Potions paragraph (grr Paizo, this should be duplicated in the Potions entry):
The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
So, yeah, you can make a potion of magic missile and hit yourself for 1d4+1 damage. :)
I'm not sure which part you feel I was unclear on. None of the spell examples that I listed are "personal", and it doesn't matter that the caster is both the target and the "caster"... if you target yourself with blindness, you still have to save vs. blindness.
Of course, it's a potion, so the DC is going to suck. Magic missile, dispel magic, and (if it works), vampiric touch are all better choices.
I don't have Paizo splats handy ... Injection Spear allows to inject potions ? And how does that interact with the Core Rulebook rules on "drinking potions" ?
The injectee is treated as being the drinker of the potion (whether they like it or not), along with taking normal spear damage.
Actually, a potion of dispel magic could be an effective cure for negative spell effects. A potion of blindness (vampiric touch etc.) is basically just poison.
I have seen harmful spell potions before. Usually they are applied stealthily (someone add them to a drink or trys to pass them off as a different kind of potion). Its kind of funny when a wizard that didnt check the merchant's references drinks what he thinks is a potion of heroism and gets smacked with a fireball.
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Gorbacz, are you saying that because the drinker 'controls' the effect, s/he can choose to ignore it? If so, I strongly disagree. If the BBEG dominates the party mage and forces him to cast blindness on himself, the mage is still going to have to make a save.
Unless I am missing something, I can see no reason why this wouldn't work.
Unless I am missing something, I can see no reason why this wouldn't work.
It's pretty clear that it works; I think people were just confused by not knowing what an injection spear is.
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I don't have Paizo splats handy ... Injection Spear allows to inject potions ?
The AA doesn't actually call out potions specifically, no. It says it "injects the liquid contents of the container (typically poison) into the target". Potions are liquids, so if harmful targeted spell effects can be made into potions, this should work.
It occurs to me in writing this that vampiric touch would essentially do nothing, since targeting yourself with a vampiric touch would restore the hit points that you lost. Shocking grasp, on the other hand...
Would the drinker just gain the ability to make a shocking grasp attack, or become the target of one? Hmm...
I think Shocking Grasp would probably give the most bang for the buck (5d6 electric damage for 250 gp).
EDIT: ninja'ed by 13 seconds! The drinker is always the target of a potion.
Potions don't give the ability to cast spells on other people.
Drink a potion of inflict moderate wounds and you will take damage.
From the PRD:Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber.
Edit: I posted this a while ago, but it was eaten by the boards. I just now realized the post never appeared.
Ignoring my attempts at humor earlier, I do have one technical detail to point out. Potions are normally imbibed; your injection spear is injecting them directly into the target. Will this make a difference?
This is what reverse pick pocket is for
"I don't remember having a potion. *electrocution*"
Ignoring my attempts at humor earlier, I do have one technical detail to point out. Potions are normally imbibed; your injection spear is injecting them directly into the target. Will this make a difference?
In the body is in the body.
What would...getting syring'd with...a potion of magic missile "look" like?
Off the top of my head, I'd say hitting someone with an Injection Spear that triggered a force damage effect would look much like hitting a shark with a bang-stick/powerhead.
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Ignoring my attempts at humor earlier, I do have one technical detail to point out. Potions are normally imbibed; your injection spear is injecting them directly into the target. Will this make a difference?
I would imagine not, as the first time that I saw the injection spear was in PF #20: Legacy of Fire: House of the Beast, and that injection spear was loaded with a dose of a potion of calm emotions, so I would say it would make no difference.
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Ignoring my attempts at humor earlier, I do have one technical detail to point out. Potions are normally imbibed; your injection spear is injecting them directly into the target. Will this make a difference?I would imagine not, as the first time that I saw the injection spear was in PF #20: Legacy of Fire: House of the Beast, and that injection spear was loaded with a dose of a potion of calm emotions, so I would say it would make no difference.
Strange... calm emotions can't be made into a potion. Oh well.
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First my rant: I'm a believer the Injection/Syringe Spear conflicts with the rules and shouldn't work since a potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Imbibe = drink/eat. Rule says under "Activation" potions must be swallowed, oils applied externally. Further, notes are made about applying potion to unconscious creatures by trickling potion down the throat. Comparing to poisons, there is a distinction between poisons that must be "ingested" to activate and those that are "injury" based (aka injected, like the spear purports to do).
However, since this appears approved material, yes, you can make harmful potions so long as there's a target effect. So, fireball wouldn't work (it's an area spell, not target), magic missile would (gets more expensive for more missiles as you increase caster level), and vampiric touch would do nothing (the target "injected" with it would simultaneously lose and gain the health from himself).
Strange... calm emotions can't be made into a potion. Oh well.
I've also seen potions of Shield, Disguise Self, and Tree Shape in Paizo products (none of which are valid potions in PFRPG rules).
So if I inject a potion subcutaneously into muscle tissue that bears few veins, that's the same as pouring it into my circulation happy digestive system?
Why I demand we try this sciencey experiment by goring Bulmahn with a potion of diminution so that man will finally have the guts (and shortness) to look me in the eye!
So if I inject a potion subcutaneously into muscle tissue that bears few veins, that's the same as pouring it into my circulation happy digestive system?
Pfft. Yeah, what is this some kind of "magic" potion? Suuure.
I've also seen potions of Shield, Disguise Self, and Tree Shape in Paizo products (none of which are valid potions in PFRPG rules).Are they valid potions under 3.5?
(I am curious about that...)
No, the rules didn't change between 3.5 and PFRPG.
So if I inject a potion subcutaneously into muscle tissue that bears few veins, that's the same as pouring it into my circulation happy digestive system?Pfft. Yeah, what is this some kind of "magic" potion? Suuure.
<G> I hear ya.
As a related aside, my line for balancing magic and real world physics is that "Because It's Magic" handily fuels most explanation, but there are times when you so contradict the way things work in the real world that players around the table get yanked from their suspension of disbelief. Best avoided if possible as it imperils smooth play and anchored immersion.
"But..."
"Just go with it."
"Yeah but seriously..."
"No seriously. Magic. Go with it."
[jest] If potions worked other than by drinking them, the rule book should say, "Drinking a potion grants certain effects, as will shooting them up the nose, squirting them in the ears, injecting them under the skin, using them for a sassy hair gel, douching with them, and giving one's self a magnificently magical colonic flush." [/jest]
While I have allowed potions to be "applied" without the need to drink them (like potions of healng), there is always a difficulty involved.
For injecting a potion, because it is injected, not imbibed (and there is a big difference between what goes on in your stomach and intestine and what goes on in your skin and muscle) I would give a -5 penalty to the save DC.
Yes, you can inject a potion of blindness, but it would be easier to resist.
Otherwise, this becomes very dangerously close to a kind of gaming that makes negative references to people of small stature...
While I have allowed potions to be "applied" without the need to drink them (like potions of healng), there is always a difficulty involved.
For injecting a potion, because it is injected, not imbibed (and there is a big difference between what goes on in your stomach and intestine and what goes on in your skin and muscle) I would give a -5 penalty to the save DC.
Yes, you can inject a potion of blindness, but it would be easier to resist.
Otherwise, this becomes very dangerously close to a kind of gaming that makes negative references to people of small stature...
I quite like a change the DC fix, Gigglestick. And I also like that my previous sentence rhymed.
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I think Shocking Grasp would probably give the most bang for the buck (5d6 electric damage for 250 gp).
EDIT: ninja'ed by 13 seconds! The drinker is always the target of a potion.
A potion of rage injected into the enemy wizard seems like it would be nasty since it has no save and you can't cast while raging.
A potion of reduce person might be a better bet for some creatures. It's first level so cheaper, change that Ogre or Giant from large to small, penalize his strength, take away his reach. Unfortunately the will save means it's not great against it's ideal target.
Just as an aside, in the 3.5 Age of Worms campaign,
While I have allowed potions to be "applied" without the need to drink them (like potions of healng), there is always a difficulty involved.
For injecting a potion, because it is injected, not imbibed (and there is a big difference between what goes on in your stomach and intestine and what goes on in your skin and muscle) I would give a -5 penalty to the save DC.
Yes, you can inject a potion of blindness, but it would be easier to resist.
Otherwise, this becomes very dangerously close to a kind of gaming that makes negative references to people of small stature...
I think you have your understanding of how anatomy works backward...
The DC should go up, not down, as it is being injected directly into the bloodstream and not having to process through the stomach. For poisons at any rate. There should be no effective difference for potions since it is all magic and stuff anyway.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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[jest] If potions worked other than by drinking them, the rule book should say, "Drinking a potion grants certain effects, as will shooting them up the nose, squirting them in the ears, injecting them under the skin, using them for a sassy hair gel, douching with them, and giving one's self a magnificently magical colonic flush." [/jest]
Can Grease be made into a potion? ;-)
This does give all sorts of amusing thoughts..
potion of hold person tired of your husband being too tired from fighting orcs to battle in the bed room? Try this aprhodesiac!
potion of ghost sound want to listen to something else besides your wife's rant?
potion of sleep kids keeping you up all night?
[jest] If potions worked other than by drinking them, the rule book should say, "Drinking a potion grants certain effects, as will shooting them up the nose, squirting them in the ears, injecting them under the skin, using them for a sassy hair gel, douching with them, and giving one's self a magnificently magical colonic flush." [/jest]
Can Grease be made into a potion? ;-)
This does give all sorts of amusing thoughts..
potion of hold person tired of your husband being too tired from fighting orcs to battle in the bed room? Try this aprhodesiac!
potion of ghost sound want to listen to something else besides your wife's rant?
potion of sleep kids keeping you up all night?
You know, you're using the game to satirize the overmedication of society. Nice.
Seems like you should just stab people in the stomach for your potion. Problem solved, and the imagery of someone getting a shocking graps in the gut it just... good?
That's what I was thinking too.
And yeah, shocking grasp in the gut, there should be an extra roll for a secondary effect unless the target has on a mithril didey.
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Seems like you should just stab people in the stomach for your potion. Problem solved, and the imagery of someone getting a shocking graps in the gut it just... good?That's what I was thinking too.
And yeah, shocking grasp in the gut, there should be an extra roll for a secondary effect unless the target has on a mithril didey.
5% chance of vomiting electrified, partially digested food back on the stabber? >:)
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I think Shocking Grasp would probably give the most bang for the buck (5d6 electric damage for 250 gp).
EDIT: ninja'ed by 13 seconds! The drinker is always the target of a potion.
A potion of rage injected into the enemy wizard seems like it would be nasty since it has no save and you can't cast while raging.
A potion of reduce person might be a better bet for some creatures. It's first level so cheaper, change that Ogre or Giant from large to small, penalize his strength, take away his reach. Unfortunately the will save means it's not great against it's ideal target.
Just a nitpick - rage only affects a willing subject.
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Just a nitpick - rage only affects a willing subject.I think Shocking Grasp would probably give the most bang for the buck (5d6 electric damage for 250 gp).
EDIT: ninja'ed by 13 seconds! The drinker is always the target of a potion.
A potion of rage injected into the enemy wizard seems like it would be nasty since it has no save and you can't cast while raging.
A potion of reduce person might be a better bet for some creatures. It's first level so cheaper, change that Ogre or Giant from large to small, penalize his strength, take away his reach. Unfortunately the will save means it's not great against it's ideal target.
Not a nitpick at all, it's a good point. I was wondering why no save, should have read it more closely.
No, the rules didn't change between 3.5 and PFRPG.I've also seen potions of Shield, Disguise Self, and Tree Shape in Paizo products (none of which are valid potions in PFRPG rules).Are they valid potions under 3.5?
(I am curious about that...)
IIRC, these were supposed to be scrolls at the beginning but were owned by a goblin who isn't supposed to accept reading so they were switched to potions to take that illiterate spin in. Identifying them as Elixirs (custom one-shot wonderous items) rather than Potions was James' quick-fix.
I think using the Oil option of potions could cover a lot of the injection vs ingestion issues.
5% chance of vomiting electrified, partially digested food back on the stabber? >:)Seems like you should just stab people in the stomach for your potion. Problem solved, and the imagery of someone getting a shocking graps in the gut it just... good?That's what I was thinking too.
And yeah, shocking grasp in the gut, there should be an extra roll for a secondary effect unless the target has on a mithril didey.
Soundly reasoned, and it provides a uniquely deviant color of fluff to the game. Bile green, I assume.
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The design intent of an injection spear is that you can use it to give a potion to an allied creature that wouldn't normally be able to drink potions on its own. So a gnoll ranger could stab his bear animal companion with a potion of bull's strength, and the bear would hulk out.
There is no reason why you couldn't use an injection spear on a hostile creature, injecting it with a potion of blindness or whatever. The creature would still get a save if the spell effect allows a save, but it's a valid tactic.
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The design intent of an injection spear is that you can use it to give a potion to an allied creature that wouldn't normally be able to drink potions on its own. So a gnoll ranger could stab his bear animal companion with a potion of bull's strength, and the bear would hulk out.
There is no reason why you couldn't use an injection spear on a hostile creature, injecting it with a potion of blindness or whatever. The creature would still get a save if the spell effect allows a save, but it's a valid tactic.
Ok, that sounds very cool. Reminds me of the Filge the necromancer from Age of Worms.
The design intent of an injection spear is that you can use it to give a potion to an allied creature that wouldn't normally be able to drink potions on its own. So a gnoll ranger could stab his bear animal companion with a potion of bull's strength, and the bear would hulk out.
There is no reason why you couldn't use an injection spear on a hostile creature, injecting it with a potion of blindness or whatever. The creature would still get a save if the spell effect allows a save, but it's a valid tactic.
Sean, what can be done to remove the personal range potions from the NPCs in the Game Mastery Guide?
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I don't have Paizo splats handy ... Injection Spear allows to inject potions ?The AA doesn't actually call out potions specifically, no. It says it "injects the liquid contents of the container (typically poison) into the target". Potions are liquids, so if harmful targeted spell effects can be made into potions, this should work.
It occurs to me in writing this that vampiric touch would essentially do nothing, since targeting yourself with a vampiric touch would restore the hit points that you lost. Shocking grasp, on the other hand...
Would the drinker just gain the ability to make a shocking grasp attack, or become the target of one? Hmm...
Vampiric touch is great fun. They take up 2d6 damage min, and instantly gain the same amount in temp hit points, which they then lose 1 hour later.
Might make a nice trap set up.