For example, you could take Heroes' Feast at level 1. Heroes' Feast I, would probably be a pretty limited buffing spell, maybe just a +1 bonus to Fear and Poison saves and 2 or 3 temporary hp. But it would be a nice little bonus that lasts all day.
Magic Missile I - 1d4+1/missile (max 5 missiles)
Magic Missile II - 1d6+1/missile (max 5 missiles)
Magic Missile III - 1d8+1/missile (max 7 missiles)
etc.
The point to something like this would be to ultimately allow a caster to cast any I-IX version of a spell they know; they could choose how they wanted to use their slots.
It would be a ton of work to try and develop balanced versions of every spell for every level, and it would probably eliminate the Heighten Metamagic feat as well as require careful examination for exploits. I guess it just makes more sense to me that a caster could use their spells this way.
Also, there's probably quite a few spells for which this idea makes no sense. Some things just don't scale. However, looking over the list of spells, I feel like I could think of a way to scale most of them.
Honestly, this seems like a pretty obvious idea and I would not be surprised if it's thoroughly been discussed before. Your thoughts are welcome.
I really like this idea, I think it could work well...
While I think you're right that many spells could be made into scaleable I-IX versions, this could lead to two potential pitfalls.
1) There are more 1st level spells than 9th. If you scale bottom-up, you'll end up expanding the spell lists by a great deal. What's grease IX do? Color spray? Magic weapon? Doom? You get the idea. That's a lot of work. If you scale top-down, you'll end up with quite a few spells that don't fit well into your scheme, such as the aforementioned grease.
2) This plan takes a lot of the wonder out of magic. Now you'll know that all spells fit into a particular theme or niche. You'll have your various walls (paper, vines, wood, fire, stone, iron, force, etc.). Or your missile spells. Or whatnot. There will no longer be dimension door and teleport and greater teleport and teleportation circle and blink. It'll be teleport 4/5/7/9/3. Doesn't sound as much fun to say "I'm casting fireball 9" as it does to say "I'm casting meteor swarm".
Oh, and one other thought. Some spells appear on multiple class spell lists at different levels. Compare when clerics and druids get each of the various cure spells. A cleric would have cure 1-4, then I'd guess cure 5-8 would be the mass cure wounds spells, plus oddballs heal and mass heal. But a druid gets mass cure critical wounds when the cleric gets mass heal. Do you tell the druid he gets cure wounds 8 as a 9th level spell? That's going to get confusing real fast.
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While I think you're right that many spells could be made into scaleable I-IX versions, this could lead to two potential pitfalls.
1) There are more 1st level spells than 9th. If you scale bottom-up, you'll end up expanding the spell lists by a great deal. What's grease IX do? Color spray? Magic weapon? Doom? You get the idea. That's a lot of work. If you scale top-down, you'll end up with quite a few spells that don't fit well into your scheme, such as the aforementioned grease.
2) This plan takes a lot of the wonder out of magic. Now you'll know that all spells fit into a particular theme or niche. You'll have your various walls (paper, vines, wood, fire, stone, iron, force, etc.). Or your missile spells. Or whatnot. There will no longer be dimension door and teleport and greater teleport and teleportation circle and blink. It'll be teleport 4/5/7/9/3. Doesn't sound as much fun to say "I'm casting fireball 9" as it does to say "I'm casting meteor swarm".
Oh, and one other thought. Some spells appear on multiple class spell lists at different levels. Compare when clerics and druids get each of the various cure spells. A cleric would have cure 1-4, then I'd guess cure 5-8 would be the mass cure wounds spells, plus oddballs heal and mass heal. But a druid gets mass cure critical wounds when the cleric gets mass heal. Do you tell the druid he gets cure wounds 8 as a 9th level spell? That's going to get confusing real fast.
The best way to deal with the naming issue is to keep with the interesting names, but put the "real" name below it in small print. That or just call them by their name with the number for most spells (ie Fireball VIII is just Fireball).
Detonate
Fireball IX
This would still remove the "magic" somewhat, but not entirely. It's not like the names of the spells aren't fairly arbitrary in the first place. (What's to keep a character from calling their fireball a flashball or a flashfire? Or calling their Shield spell Aegis?)
Also, there's already precedent for having summon monster be weird with the first run of the summoner rules (where summon monster IX was a 6th level spell). I imagine that the players sort-of expect that to be a possibility.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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What if instead of having nine versions of each spell, what if you only gained spells at 1st level and every spell levelled? So, you would start with Magic Missile, which would gain at every level, or Fireball, which would do 1d6/level. Perhaps every few levels you could add a new spell or replace one you know. Or maybe every other level you would get some other magical effect. Like metamagic or customizable spell effects.
The best way to deal with the naming issue is to keep with the interesting names, but put the "real" name below it in small print. That or just call them by their name with the number for most spells (ie Fireball VIII is just Fireball).
Detonate
Fireball IXThis would still remove the "magic" somewhat, but not entirely. It's not like the names of the spells aren't fairly arbitrary in the first place. (What's to keep a character from calling their fireball a flashball or a flashfire? Or calling their Shield spell Aegis?)
Also, there's already precedent for having summon monster be weird with the first run of the summoner rules (where summon monster IX was a 6th level spell). I imagine that the players sort-of expect that to be a possibility.
I agree that the names are somewhat arbitrary. After all, look at all the "greater" spells and "lesser" spells for examples of that. In-game, we can call our spells whatever we like, after all. I'd think that having 2 names for spells would be a bit confusing though. I'm still getting used to changes like Mordenkainen's Disjunction/mage's disjunction and the Bigby's spells.
The weirdness precedent is there already; I just did a quick name conversion for an example. I remember what you're talking about with the summoner, but let's re-examine my example. We have 4 cure wounds spells now (light/mod/ser/critical), plus 4 mass cure wound spells, plus heal, plus mass heal. A cleric gets these at certain levels, while other classes get them at certain levels. Let's eliminate heal and mass heal for the moment and we'll add one more spell to the cures, like say breath of life. Now we have a 9 spell progression that we'll convert to cure 1-9. Okay, the cleric is set. But wait, what about the druid? He uses the exact same spells, but gets them at different levels. When a cleric gets mass cure critical, the druid's got mass cure serious. This means that the druid will be using cure 8 as a 9th level spell. I'm just concerned about the confusion that could be involved here. I mean, it's called cure 8, so why is it in the druid's 9th level spell list? That sort of thing.
Wouldn't work well. Once it got to where you started working on wish I-IX, what would be the point of the other spells? :)
I agree that the names are somewhat arbitrary. After all, look at all the "greater" spells and "lesser" spells for examples of that. In-game, we can call our spells whatever we like, after all. I'd think that having 2 names for spells would be a bit confusing though. I'm still getting used to changes like Mordenkainen's Disjunction/mage's disjunction and the Bigby's spells.
It will be a cold day in hell when i DONT call it bigby's hand of X or Merdenkainen's Disjunction. Dont have to get used to what i stubbornly refuse to change!
The biggest problem is that it renders metamagic obsolete for wizards.
Magic missle 3
vs
Empowered magic missle
Magic missle 5
vs
Maximized magic missle.
etc.
For example, you could take Heroes' Feast at level 1. Heroes' Feast I, would probably be a pretty limited buffing spell, maybe just a +1 bonus to Fear and Poison saves and 2 or 3 temporary hp. But it would be a nice little bonus that lasts all day.
Magic Missile I - 1d4+1/missile (max 5 missiles)
Magic Missile II - 1d6+1/missile (max 5 missiles)
Magic Missile III - 1d8+1/missile (max 7 missiles)
etc.The point to something like this would be to ultimately allow a caster to cast any I-IX version of a spell they know; they could choose how they wanted to use their slots.
It would be a ton of work to try and develop balanced versions of every spell for every level, and it would probably eliminate the Heighten Metamagic feat as well as require careful examination for exploits. I guess it just makes more sense to me that a caster could use their spells this way.
Also, there's probably quite a few spells for which this idea makes no sense. Some things just don't scale. However, looking over the list of spells, I feel like I could think of a way to scale most of them.
Honestly, this seems like a pretty obvious idea and I would not be surprised if it's thoroughly been discussed before. Your thoughts are welcome.
Welcome to Rolemaster - the system with the best spells / magic I have ever played.
There's some de facto scaling with "lesser" and "greater" versions of spells.
The best additions, I reckon, would be summon swarm II and summon swarm III. But then, swarms are kind of unpredictable in terms of CR, it might be tricky to put the list together.
Kind of along the lines of G.U.R.P.S. Magic, without prerequisites.
Wow! :)
Lots of good discussion and points.
I think Lathiira makes some excellent points. I do want to clarify some of my intentions in regards to this idea that might satisfy some of Lathiira's concerns.
I was sort of thinking that every spell gets a I-IX progression. So it would not really matter that there's more 1st level spells than 9th level spells. What we currently think of as Fireball, would become Fireball III. Fireball III works exactly as it currently does. There would also be a Fireball IX that is not Meteor Swarm. Meteor Swarm would, theoretically, have a I-IX progression as well and would hopefully be balanced with Fireball, but work somewhat differently.
Basically, the same would be true for all spells, the only exception being if multiple spells seem to "obviously" be a progression of each other. So maybe Cure Light Wounds would become Cure I and Cure Moderate would become Cure II and so on, but there would also be Heal I-IX which would work differently. Also, there would be Mass Cure I through Mass Cure IX, all with a different mechanic from Cure and Heal.
This could become super complicated, but I think it could be fun to play.
Wow! :)
Lots of good discussion and points.I think Lathiira makes some excellent points. I do want to clarify some of my intentions in regards to this idea that might satisfy some of Lathiira's concerns.
I was sort of thinking that every spell gets a I-IX progression. So it would not really matter that there's more 1st level spells than 9th level spells. What we currently think of as Fireball, would become Fireball III. Fireball III works exactly as it currently does. There would also be a Fireball IX that is not Meteor Swarm. Meteor Swarm would, theoretically, have a I-IX progression as well and would hopefully be balanced with Fireball, but work somewhat differently.
Basically, the same would be true for all spells, the only exception being if multiple spells seem to "obviously" be a progression of each other. So maybe Cure Light Wounds would become Cure I and Cure Moderate would become Cure II and so on, but there would also be Heal I-IX which would work differently. Also, there would be Mass Cure I through Mass Cure IX, all with a different mechanic from Cure and Heal.
This could become super complicated, but I think it could be fun to play.
Interesting...
Still, I would prefer it if Fireball I = Burning Hands.
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I like this idea, it makes some spells which are very useful at lower levels continue to be useful at higher levels. Take grease for example: as a level 1 spell the saving throw will always be 11 + caster mod. It can still find some use for covering whole areas and hoping a couple of the high level mobs fumble their reflex saves, but for its other fun uses (making mobs drop items, etc.) it's fairly pointless. A grease IX spell (as mentioned above), might cover a larger area, require reflex saves in successive rounds, have the ability to be different types of grease (axle grease vs. 10w30), etc etc.
All that being said, it would be a HUGE undertaking to add and balance II, III, etc. for all 1st through 8th level spells.
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For example, you could take Heroes' Feast at level 1. Heroes' Feast I, would probably be a pretty limited buffing spell, maybe just a +1 bonus to Fear and Poison saves and 2 or 3 temporary hp. But it would be a nice little bonus that lasts all day.
Magic Missile I - 1d4+1/missile (max 5 missiles)
Magic Missile II - 1d6+1/missile (max 5 missiles)
Magic Missile III - 1d8+1/missile (max 7 missiles)
etc.
The Players Guide to Kingdoms of Kalamar setting had a few 'scalable' spells that worked similar to this. Once you learned the spell, you could cast it from any slot from 1 to 9, and the level of the slot expended determined it's effects.
The only sample scalable spells I remember was a summoning spell (summon fey?) and some dispel magic examples that stripped spells from the mind of an opponent (of a lower level than the spell slot you used, so that you could use a 4th level slot to cause a foe to lose 1d3 3rd level spells / slots, or something, which would be great for an NPC wizard, who is generally a few levels higher than the PC wizards, but utter junk for a PC, where the tables are turned, due to the nature of EL/CR).
A scaling Abjuration spell called 'Counterspell I-IX' that functioned as Dispel Magic but only was useful to counter another spell could be neat.
Other spells don't necessarily flow terribly well with the scaling concept. What would Detect Poison IV do? Is there any need for a Deathwatch II? Quite a few spells already have changes built in as the caster levels up, like Phantom Steed, would those effects be broken out into higher level slot variations?
I that latter case, I think I prefer a single spell, such as Phantom Steed, that just has more utility the higher level the caster gets, but doesn't require a bigger slot to summon the flying mount vs. the running mount, just a bigger caster. Ideally, all spells would scale at least somewhat. A color spray cone that got bigger as you gained levels, for instance, or a version of flaming sphere that conjured multiple spheres, or a version of shocking grasp that allowed multiple touches, etc.
Half the spell research I did back in the days of 1st and 2nd edition was making bigger versions of basic spells or variations, such as the 9th level version of Magic Missile (Missile Storm) I used in those old H1-H4 modules in the Bloodstone Lands. (1 grouping of 5 missiles per magic-user level, each group of five must be targetted at a different target or are lost. Boom! The first 17 Wights each take 5d4+5!)
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I always thought it would be interesting to have a "construct your own" spell mechanic. It would be hard to balance with effects other than damage and healing, but manageable if done right.
Something like: Pick energy type, pick quantity (ie damage die size and count), pick targeting style (touch, ray, multi-ray, target, multi-target, AoE [Cylinder, Sphere, Cone, Line]) and multiply by duration (instantaneous = 1).
Build in some discounts for needing to be directed and/or longer casting times and you're golden.
Instead of scribing spells you'd scribe pieces (such as "Damage Type: Positive, limit 35 avg result or AoE [Cylinder]: limit 15ft radius).
A pillar of positive energy would actually be a cool spell... *runs off with ideas*
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I always thought it would be interesting to have a "construct your own" spell mechanic. It would be hard to balance with effects other than damage and healing, but manageable if done right.
I'm not sure exactly how it will work but they are talking about a new magic system which will be presented in Ultimate Magic words of power... or something like that which would essentially allow you to build your own spells on the fly. Be interesting to see how it worked out.
There was a bunch of new posts between when I started writing my last post and when I actually hit "Submit." Cool.
Wouldn't work well. Once it got to where you started working on wish I-IX, what would be the point of the other spells? :)
I was sort of thinking about that one. Off the top of my head, Wish I would have an expensive material component, or at least expensive for a 1st level character. Maybe 10 or 20 gp. It would allow the caster to duplicate any 0-level Arcane spell or summon a mundane, non-masterwork item worth less than 100 gp with a duration of 1 minute/level before disappearing. I think the expense and the fact that Wish is, by definition, generally creating an effect weaker than other equivalent level spells would be what balances it with the others.
The biggest problem is that it renders metamagic obsolete for wizards.
Charender makes an excellent point about meta-magic. The only solution I can see would be to either somehow require the feats in order to do this, which might make players feel required to take the feats. Or to completely dispense with the feats, which may make many feel as though Casters are getting a very much unneeded boost in power.
I'll have to look into Rolemaster, GURPS and Arcana Evolved.
What's grease IX do?
I'll ask Tony Hayward.
I just don't see it working. There are effects that simply cannot be scaled up infinitely. Conversely, there are things that should have a minimal effect level. Plus, it does take away a lot of the magic of, well, magic.
The only way I can see (and have seen) things like this working is not to have spells like we know them at all! All you have is a building block system with effects and meta data like range, duration, strength and area, and everything has a cost.
Say you can have elemental (=energy) damage, which costs 1 point per d6 (and you get to choose the energy type). It's short range single target unless you pay for more targets (cone, spread, or line) or longer range.
I really don't like the idea, but that said I really like the spell templates idea for increasing spell selection.
One example of a spell template we developed here on the boards.
Swift spell template -
Use on any spell that takes a standard action to cast with a duration greater than 1 round. Casting time becomes a swift action.
Either duration is reduced by 1 step, caster level is increased by 2 levels or Duration is reduced by 2 steps, caster level is unchanged.
Examples
Swift divine favor, cleric 3, as per divine favor with a duration of 1 round and a casting time of 1 swift action.
Swift Bull's Strength, spell level is unchanged, swift action to cast, duration of 1 round(1 min/level->1 round/level->1 round).
This template has been very helpful for creating spells that are use for fighter/caster hybrids.
Creative Director
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This is an interesting idea... but not one you'll be seeing appear in Pathfinder. Because, frankly, as elegant as this system might feel, it's kind of boring. If an RPG book is boring to read, that's bad. Because even if it's useful as an in-game reference, if it's boring to read (which is the first impression the game gives to lots of new players) folks might not even WANT to try to play the game.
It's also kind of boring in game, in my opinion, to not have spells with various different and flavorful names like burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire, and so on. Makes things feel more organic and alive to me. Having summon monster and summon nature's ally follow a I–XI format is fine in this incarnation, since those DO feel flavorful since they're the only spells that do it.
*ideas*
To be frank, I think this idea needlessly convolutes the spell list and just makes everything more confusing - not to mention difficult to keep up with (as if spellcasting wasn't already). The reason Summon Monster/Nature's Ally goes I to IX is because the monsters change with level. Each spell is a different spell with a different effect - you cast a list of X monsters, and can cast 1d2 or 3 monsters of Y list and 1d4-1 monsters of Z list. It's not 1 first level spell and 8 increasingly more powerful first level spells; it's 9 different spells with mostly similar functions. Your idea can be done the exact way it is done now - increases in capability based on a mathematical derivation of caster level.
Without a complete overhaul of the spellcasting system in D&D, this is pointless. You just end up with a glut of spells that all do the same thing, but a little more powerfully. Which is compounded by the fact that you would have to pick and choose at each new spell level what you wanted instead of picking one and having access to it and its power increases as your power increases. Low level spells become useless even faster and you never get an expanded spell list because you keep choosing the same spells over and over each level because they become buffer at each new level.
Of course, this is similar to how psionics works, too. Many low-level powers are augmentable by spending more power points, making them the equivalent of higher level powers.
Of course, this is similar to how psionics works, too. Many low-level powers are augmentable by spending more power points, making them the equivalent of higher level powers.
This is effectively how alot of computer RPGs work. But they are all based on a skill-point spell enhancement system. It won't work in the system we are using.
It won't work in the system we are using.
I disagree. You'd certainly have a much smaller spell list, though (e.g. all fire spells become "fire blast" with different shapes and sizes depending on level).
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There have been some good points on this thread. In the end, I don't think it would work well. Some spells could benefit from it - but to be the norm than the exception I believe has too many what ifs and compatibility issues. To the OP, I would like to ask - in your idea, how would a Fireball IX differ from a FireBall III cast by an 18th level caster? If the the difference is that Fireball IX allows 9d6 and Fireball III allows 3d6 the amount of damage doesnt scale with the caster level, then all that does it makes the spells weaker, and have too many 9th level spells to choose from when you can really only memorize 2 or 3.
To Set - I like the idea of making some enhanced versions of spells like the bigger color spray, the multiple flaming spheres and touching additional targets w/ Shocking Grasp. That's some good suggestions. Still, there's no need for 9 different variations of the spells, however.
The precedence of Lesser and Greater versions already allow for three versions of a spell - which seems a good enough mix for most of them.
To Charender - the template idea is fantastic. I had never seen that before. I may try to find a way to incorporate that. Perhaps w/ a metamagic feat that allows "customizing" such things...... it may complicate things though. Still I do like the possibilities of the diversity.
To the OP - in short the reason why you won't see this in Pathfinder is that they are trying to stay similar and compatible with 3rd edition products of D&D. Changing that much of the magic system and spells would break any semblance of compatibility.
I will grant you your idea has merit in theory; but it's not pragmatic at all IMO.
Robert
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That's something I've wondered. I'd love to boost up level 0 ice beam into a massive ice ray. The way I think of it is that the spells you know as a wizard are those that have proven stable, needing specific components and motions to cast properly with no easy addition to just expand them. For sorcerers it's all about reflexes and ingrained abilities, stuff you just know how to cast properly. For divine spells it's about what's given to you by higher powers so niether path really offers an easy mod. It's either trying to ask more from a super being, trying to force out something unnatural, or mess with safe reliable spells.
The only real out is as a wizard who can spend time and effort to find new ways to use magic. So with effort and DM permission you can viable create these upgraded spells like you would make a magical item, working and working until something viable is made. Still, just making an extended spell version of a fireball would be useless as you can use a feat to learn how to extend any spell, you'd have to make an entirely new functioning spell.
It won't work in the system we are using.I disagree. You'd certainly have a much smaller spell list, though (e.g. all fire spells become "fire blast" with different shapes and sizes depending on level).
Oh sure, it CAN work with the system we are using. It's just dumb.
To the OP, I would like to ask - in your idea, how would a Fireball IX differ from a FireBall III cast by an 18th level caster? If the the difference is that Fireball IX allows 9d6 and Fireball III allows 3d6 the amount of damage doesnt scale with the caster level, then all that does it makes the spells weaker, and have too many 9th level spells to choose from when you can really only memorize 2 or 3.
...
To the OP - in short the reason why you won't see this in Pathfinder is that they are trying to stay similar and compatible with 3rd edition products of D&D. Changing that much of the magic system and spells would break any semblance of compatibility.
I guess it wasn't clear from what I wrote. Fireball III works exactly like Fireball does now and is still based on the caster level. Fireball III cast by a 5th level caster = 5d6. Fireball III cast by a 10th level caster = 10d6. Fireball III cast by an 18th level caster, still = 10d6, since the regular Fireball stops advancing at 10th level. As for Fireball IX, hard to say at this point. Maybe it would be 18d8 or 18d10 or 18d12. Or maybe the area would be larger. Or maybe it would be a Swift version of a lower level Fireball spell. It would have to be developed and balanced with existing 9th level spells.
So, just to be clear, any scalable spell cast at its "ordinary" spell level, such as Fireball III or Meteor Swarm IX, would do exactly what it always did for the given caster level. No spells are being eliminated. Spells cast at their "ordinary" spell level are fully backwards compatible.
Also, I really appreciate the comment from James Jacobs. However, I never even considered thinking of this as a genuine suggestion for a Pathfinder product. This is purely an idea to kick around for the "Homebrew Hobbyist." A fun what-if to think about.
Thank you everyone for thoughts, constructive criticism and discussion.
Some more template ideas. Note these are not necessarily tweaked for balance, but just to give ideas.
Greater AoE spell, this template can be applied to any burst, emenation, line, or spread spell that deals damage. Increase the area and dice cap by 50%, and increase the spell level by 2.
Greater fireball, level 5 spell, 30 foot spread, 15d6 cap.
Greater cone of cold, level 7 spell, 90 foot cone, 22d6 cap.
Greater Ray spell, This template can be applied to any spell that generates 1 or more rays or bolts. Double the number of rays or bolts generated and multiple the cap on the number of rays or bolts generated by 4. Increase the spells level by 4.
Greater magic missle, level 5 spell, generates 1 missle per level up to 20 missles at level 20.
Greater scorching ray, level 6 spell, generates 2 ray at third level, + 1 ray every 2 levels after than up to a maximum of 12 rays at level 23
Welcome to Rolemaster - the system with the best spells / magic I have ever played.
+1
To the OP, I would like to ask - in your idea, how would a Fireball IX differ from a FireBall III cast by an 18th level caster?
Presumably, one would be like Meteor Swarm and the other would be like Fireball.
Oh sure, it CAN work with the system we are using. It's just dumb.
I can't argue with that. In fact, I'd argue that Vancian magic in general is kind of dumb, but that's just my opinion. :-)
Wouldn't work well. Once it got to where you started working on wish I-IX, what would be the point of the other spells? :)prestidigitate = really really really really really really really really really limited wish
"Man, I wish my room were clean. *poof* Awesome, thank you Djinni Shine."
I would estimate that there are roughly 440 spells in the Core Rulebook. If we went to the trouble of fully implementing the idea, there would probably be somewhere in the vicinity of 400 to 420 spells.
No new spells are being added. Very, very, very few are being removed. All the fancy flavor of the various spell names is still preserved.
A (probably imperfect) example:
This is just one spell, but it has some additional text at the end to explain how the spell changes depending on what spell slot it is cast from.
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Acid Arrow
School conjuration (creation) [acid]; Sorcerer/Wizard
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (rhubarb leaf and an adder's stomach), F (a dart)
EFFECT
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect one arrow of acid
Duration At least 1 round
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
An arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals an amount of acid damage instantly, plus an additional amount each round based on the Spell Level cast from and Caster Level, unless neutralized.
I - The arrow deals 1d6 acid/round. Duration 1 round + 1 round/3 levels (Max 4 rounds.)
II - The arrow deals 2d4 acid/round. Duration 1 round + 1 round/3 levels (Max 7 rounds.)
III - The arrow deals 2d4 acid/round. Duration 1 round + 1 round/2 levels (Max 10 rounds.)
IV - The arrow deals 2d6 acid/round. Duration 1 round + 1 round/2 levels (Max 10 rounds.)
V - The arrow deals 2d6 acid/round. Duration 1 round/level (Max 12 rounds.)
VI - The arrow deals 3d6 acid/round. Duration 1 round/level (Max 15 rounds.)
VII - The arrow deals 5d6 acid/round. Duration 1 round/level (Max 25 rounds.)
VIII - The arrow deals 8d6 acid/round. Duration 1 round/level (Max 30 rounds.)
IX - The arrow deals 10d6 acid/round. Duration 1 round/level (Max 36 rounds.)
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This is just an off-the-cuff description of what a spell might look like. I'm sure it needs fine tuning. Anyway, spells that could be scaled, like this one, would be. Ones that don't scale very well, like Phantom Steed, would be left as is.
What if instead of having nine versions of each spell, what if you only gained spells at 1st level and every spell levelled? So, you would start with Magic Missile, which would gain at every level, or Fireball, which would do 1d6/level. Perhaps every few levels you could add a new spell or replace one you know. Or maybe every other level you would get some other magical effect. Like metamagic or customizable spell effects.
Somehow I missed this earlier. I think that's an awesome idea.
It could be kind of cool to have a spell-casting class with a very small selection of spells, but their spells would level up with them. Rather than having spell slots, they can just use their magic a certain number of times per day.
It could be a little like a Cleric's Turn Undead or a Paladin's Lay on Hands. They are spell-like abilities that get more powerful as the character levels.
Let's just say we made a class, we could call it a "Warlock" or whatever. A Homebrewed Pathfinder version. Anyway, they get maybe 3 or 4 spells at level 1. They can cast maybe 3 (plus the Charisma Modifier plus their level) spells per day, in any combination. They cast every spell at their highest Spell Level.
It almost sounds like a more Vancian Psionicist, really.
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For example, you could take Heroes' Feast at level 1. Heroes' Feast I, would probably be a pretty limited buffing spell, maybe just a +1 bonus to Fear and Poison saves and 2 or 3 temporary hp. But it would be a nice little bonus that lasts all day.
Magic Missile I - 1d4+1/missile (max 5 missiles)
Magic Missile II - 1d6+1/missile (max 5 missiles)
Magic Missile III - 1d8+1/missile (max 7 missiles)
etc.The point to something like this would be to ultimately allow a caster to cast any I-IX version of a spell they know; they could choose how they wanted to use their slots.
It would be a ton of work to try and develop balanced versions of every spell for every level, and it would probably eliminate the Heighten Metamagic feat as well as require careful examination for exploits. I guess it just makes more sense to me that a caster could use their spells this way.
Also, there's probably quite a few spells for which this idea makes no sense. Some things just don't scale. However, looking over the list of spells, I feel like I could think of a way to scale most of them.
Honestly, this seems like a pretty obvious idea and I would not be surprised if it's thoroughly been discussed before. Your thoughts are welcome.
Didn't Monte Cook do something like this in one of his books?
Echoing a post above, Kingdom of Kalamar did this with a few spells. My favorite was Graced by Saints. Basically it gave the target fast healing (level it was cast at) for 1 round per caster level. It can be done but needs to be the exception to the general rule,
Doug
Didn't Monte Cook do something like this in one of his books?
Not exactly.
Arcana Evolved has a modified magic system which is worth looking at. Each spell level has simple, complex, and exotic spells. A hybrid caster might only have access to simple spells of a level. A regular wizard type would have complex spells. It takes a feat or prestige class to gain access to a limited number of exotic spells. All spells have modifications that let them go 1 slot above or below their normal level.
Book of Experimental Might has a spell system where spell levels match character level. So the normal set of 1st level spells is split into 1st and 2nd level spells. The normal set of 2nd level spells are now 3rd and 4th level, etc. This goes all the way up so that Wish and Time Stop are 20th level spells.
Both are worth checking out if you want to vary your casting in a game.
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Half the spell research I did back in the days of 1st and 2nd edition was making bigger versions of basic spells or variations, such as the 9th level version of Magic Missile (Missile Storm) I used in those old H1-H4 modules in the Bloodstone Lands. (1 grouping of 5 missiles per magic-user level, each group of five must be targetted at a different target or are lost. Boom! The first 17 Wights each take 5d4+5!)
Great spell Set ! But you did mean the first 18 wights right ?
I would estimate that there are roughly 440 spells in the Core Rulebook. If we went to the trouble of fully implementing the idea, there would probably be somewhere in the vicinity of 400 to 420 spells.
No new spells are being added. Very, very, very few are being removed. All the fancy flavor of the various spell names is still preserved.
A (probably imperfect) example:
This is just one spell, but it has some additional text at the end to explain how the spell changes depending on what spell slot it is cast from.
*etc*
But if that works like Summon Monster, that is 9 different spells, not one spell.
What if instead of having nine versions of each spell, what if you only gained spells at 1st level and every spell levelled? So, you would start with Magic Missile, which would gain at every level, or Fireball, which would do 1d6/level. Perhaps every few levels you could add a new spell or replace one you know. Or maybe every other level you would get some other magical effect. Like metamagic or customizable spell effects.Somehow I missed this earlier. I think that's an awesome idea.
It could be kind of cool to have a spell-casting class with a very small selection of spells, but their spells would level up with them. Rather than having spell slots, they can just use their magic a certain number of times per day.
There is already a game that works like that. D&D 4E
The important thing here is... what's the value gained.
A greater variety of spell effects.
Is the game better served by having a spellbook that's nothing but magic missle and fire dart versions 1-9 instead of having different spells altogether?
No, but that's not what this homebrew is suggesting.
And what would be the point of a first level version of meteor swarm?
I'm sure there's a 1st-level caster out there somewhere that would like to have the option to use a range touch spell to deal bludgeoning and fire damage.