|
Hello Everyone... Vampress here with your thoughts on combat tactics game playing. Nothing about rules here, just game playing.
Background. A Party of 5 Fighter, Sorcerer, Druid, Cleric, and Ranger head off to a "Brigand Camp" all of the PC's are 5th level.
They go straight to the camp without reconing the area.
They are immediately engaged by the following.
20 lvl 2 fighters. from 2 different sides
4 lvl 4 Elite Specialist Archers
1 Dwarf lt. 5th level
Later after 4 rounds of combat... a 7th Rogue shows up to flank the soft targets of the Party.
Also a "Mage" who is not a mage but a Vampire 7th level with Fly spell shows up... and wreaks havoc... after all it is his lair.
The Captain 6th level with 5 2nd lvl Fighters shows up on the flank side but far away.. bypassing a wooded area.. Entangle spell will slow them up.
The bad Dwarf was quickly dispatched by spells, and by the 2 weapon wielding fighter of the party.
Anyways to make a long story short... the 2nd level fighters could not do alot of damage as expected to the Vetran party... The Archers, Rogue, Vampire Mage did what I would call devestating damage to the party, with the intention to Kill all Religious charachters first....
Basically our DM sets peramerters and missions for all NPC's... anything from Patrol routes, loyalty, mission templates either defensive or offensive for the enemy.
The playing characters saw their Cleric pelted... then saved by their party.. then pelted again by a Surviving Archer.... Cleric dies.
Do you think this was too brutal, or realistic? Obviously the leader "Vampire" had instructed that all Religious enemies be eliminated first....
It sounds legit to me, too. With scouting and caution they might have been able to pick off smaller groups at a time; barging in the front door without preparation I'd expect quite a bit of force to be levied in their direction at once.
|
|
Seems legit to me. They're fighting a vampire and his minions. Cleric would be the biggest target and the only real thread to the vampire. Party should have done their homework.
How did the battle end up going?
All the fighters excpet the 5 with the Captain were killed.
Evil Dwarf KilledCaptain and 5 fighters never made it to battle because of a huge entangle spell in the woods... they eventually got out but then since the Captain is dominated... was told to retire to the lair.
Rogue retires to the Lair
4 Elite Archers retire to the Lair.
Party:
Cleric Dead
Figter, Druid, Sorcerer, Ranger Injured with minimal potions left.
Ranger Cougar is ok
Druid Tiger is Dead.
The major spells the Vampire cast that had memorized at the time was Enervation, Curse, A couple of Magic Missles, Dispell magic x2, ray of enfeeblement. When the Alarm sounded the Vampire spent two rounds to buff with Mage Armor, and Shield. The Vampire did get hit with around 3 arrows from the Ranger did over 45 points damage.. The Vampire had to retreat.. at no time did the Vampire ever get closer than 50 feet or so in the air to its Victims.. It was always airborne.
I did not think it was Brutal myself... just a fact of life.. just wanted other peoples perspectives.
They are immediately engaged by the following.20 lvl 2 fighters. from 2 different sides
4 lvl 4 Elite Specialist Archers
1 Dwarf lt. 5th levelLater after 4 rounds of combat... a 7th Rogue shows up to flank the soft targets of the Party.
Also a "Mage" who is not a mage but a Vampire 7th level with Fly spell shows up... and wreaks havoc... after all it is his lair.
The Captain 6th level with 5 2nd lvl Fighters shows up on the flank side but far away.. bypassing a wooded area.. Entangle spell will slow them up.
As one big fight, that is brutal:
20 2nd-level fighters alone are something like CR 9.5. Alone, they're not that dangerous, but in those numbers, they can be a danger due to sheer statistics.
Add all the rest, especially that vampire (what class was he?) and you have a real killer.
Of course, they just stormed the front, that sort of thing is rarely wise.
And the party didn't retreat even though they had a lot of opposition.
Call it a life lesson (or death lesson ;-))
|
|
They are immediately engaged by the following.20 lvl 2 fighters. from 2 different sides
4 lvl 4 Elite Specialist Archers
1 Dwarf lt. 5th levelLater after 4 rounds of combat... a 7th Rogue shows up to flank the soft targets of the Party.
Also a "Mage" who is not a mage but a Vampire 7th level with Fly spell shows up... and wreaks havoc... after all it is his lair.
The Captain 6th level with 5 2nd lvl Fighters shows up on the flank side but far away.. bypassing a wooded area.. Entangle spell will slow them up.
As one big fight, that is brutal:
20 2nd-level fighters alone are something like CR 9.5. Alone, they're not that dangerous, but in those numbers, they can be a danger due to sheer statistics.
Add all the rest, especially that vampire (what class was he?) and you have a real killer.
Of course, they just stormed the front, that sort of thing is rarely wise.
And the party didn't retreat even though they had a lot of opposition.
Call it a life lesson (or death lesson ;-))
True that KaeYoss... I was actually amazed as I sat there.. Very expierenced party (Years of playing)They waltzed in there like they owned the place.. Not sure if it is Party complancecny (yikes spelling)used to metagaming..eek...or what... but our DM has been methodically preparing all sessions with realistic encounters I think. There are always options for the party, he does not hand hold the party, he expects you to think like an Adventurer... obviously I think their party was either distracted, did not really think Brigands as a threat, even though the DM said that large caravans were getting ransacked killing all persons in the caravans. There was warning signs of a large "Brigand" group.
Anyways I think Tactically the DM did what was in Evil parties interests, and the Playing charachters were somehow bored and just thought this was a quick fight... not so to the Clerics demise.
|
|
How old is the average PC player?
Are they old enough to tie their shoes without help?
Then, it was legit. You didn't kill them. Their own stupidity did. Who in their right mind storms a BBEG's lair without recon?
Oh we are in our 30's :) old school group... but here lies the true problem I think.
Our DM does a wonderful job of Storyline, immersion, etc.... the campaign always makes sense and we are free to roam, take on quests as we like... Therefore we have main missions, and side quests galore.
Some of them use Laptops... which creates distraction... for some??? as they surf the web until its their turn to actually do something. The others do pay attention, taking notes and definetly getting involved, however I think it is the few distractions that lead to the demise of the party because they are not truly taking it serious.
Its no fault of the DM, he has brought up the distraction thing before, and does not want to be a complete arse! This group has been together for 10 years... I just think its a escape for maybe 1 person.. out of 4 involved.. more of a social get together. Dont get me wrong though it is a social get together... but one should be more intuned.. that way you dont go straight into a unknown risk area.
I agree that it was legit. Perhaps like you mentioned, your party was bored. Nothing quite as exciting as pushing to the edge of performance.
Were the encounters leading up to this event relatively easy? If so perhaps your DM did this on purpose to bring out their inner cockiness, then as soon as they do something foolish the DM hammers them.
Regardless this is something I would have enjoyed participating in :)
Seems legit to me. The party had a druid and a ranger(!) and didn't bother to recon? They paid the price for not using the party's tools correctly.
The GM was totally justified in targeting the cleric. Vampires are supposed to be played intelligently.
Mr. Fishy has done some crazy/stupid stuff before but attacking an enemy "camp" without a plan or recon? Head-on? Were they drunk?
That was a lethal dose of stupid.
I have been in this DM's shoes on many occasions. Create a big interesting adventure site, full of intelligent organized defenders, and present it to a party of players.
Sometimes the party is clever. Sometimes even more clever than I am - they find ways to minimize their risk, hit & run tactics, stealth, diversions, whatever. Sometimes even things I didn't think of. Their reward is that their stuff usually works, unless I had already planned for it and built a solution into the scenario in advance (in which case, hopefully they are smart enough to verify that their plan is failing in time to fall back and try something else).
Sometimes the party is not clever. Sometimes they do exactly what the OP described: full frontal assault and damn the consequences. In my games, this is suicide. However, I make sure the players know this (I assume their characters are capable of figuring it out, but the characters are not burdened by metagaming, entitlement, or a false sense of security that comes from being a central character in a story's plotline).
In the first case, I try to make the encounters challenging and enjoyable while still conveying the sense that it was the party's clever planning that resulted in a win for them; had they not planned well, they would likely have died. I want them to have absolute certainty that they are alive, wealthier, and probably gaining an XP level, all because of that plan - it was totally worth it.
In the second case, if the players seem hells-bent on the frontal assault, and my tipping them off that their characters would think it's suicide even if the players are oblivious, then I let them die. I don't pull punches like the OP's DM did (let's face it, that was multiple encounters all at least 3-5 levels above the PCs, all coming at once - whatever excuse the DM used to have the remaining enemy forces retreat after they had eliminated the PC cleric, it seems out of character for a vampire-led army of bad guys defending their hideout).
|
|
I agree that it was legit. Perhaps like you mentioned, your party was bored. Nothing quite as exciting as pushing to the edge of performance.
Were the encounters leading up to this event relatively easy? If so perhaps your DM did this on purpose to bring out their inner cockiness, then as soon as they do something foolish the DM hammers them.
Regardless this is something I would have enjoyed participating in :)
Leading up to this.. well they have a few side quests in NON familiar territory. In the last session they did take out a Giant Minoutor... Hill Giant....minatour qualities that is.. It was a fiendish Giant... so its not like they were taking on peasants before.
The DM's immersion and discriptions are not boring but very informative and creative... We are not playing a video game here and story is pretty important, at least I think so...
Anyways the description of the Humanoid flying out of the Monk ruins was this... Humanoid shape with large Black Cloak, pale complexion, red glowing eyes..... UHHH all I had to say was HELLO... no one did a Religion check, or really said nothing until he blasted the party with 4 magic missles, enervation, and Globe of invulnerability.
But you people are right... there was no time limit, the party had all the time they wanted.. your right, they should have used their resources more wisely.
|
|
I have been in this DM's shoes on many occasions. Create a big interesting adventure site, full of intelligent organized defenders, and present it to a party of players.
Sometimes the party is clever. Sometimes even more clever than I am - they find ways to minimize their risk, hit & run tactics, stealth, diversions, whatever. Sometimes even things I didn't think of. Their reward is that their stuff usually works, unless I had already planned for it and built a solution into the scenario in advance (in which case, hopefully they are smart enough to verify that their plan is failing in time to fall back and try something else).
Sometimes the party is not clever. Sometimes they do exactly what the OP described: full frontal assault and damn the consequences. In my games, this is suicide. However, I make sure the players know this (I assume their characters are capable of figuring it out, but the characters are not burdened by metagaming, entitlement, or a false sense of security that comes from being a central character in a story's plotline).
In the first case, I try to make the encounters challenging and enjoyable while still conveying the sense that it was the party's clever planning that resulted in a win for them; had they not planned well, they would likely have died. I want them to have absolute certainty that they are alive, wealthier, and probably gaining an XP level, all because of that plan - it was totally worth it.
In the second case, if the players seem hells-bent on the frontal assault, and my tipping them off that their characters would think it's suicide even if the players are oblivious, then I let them die. I don't pull punches like the OP's DM did (let's face it, that was multiple encounters all at least 3-5 levels above the PCs, all coming at once - whatever excuse the DM used to have the remaining enemy forces retreat after they had eliminated the PC cleric, it seems out of character for a vampire-led army of bad guys defending their hideout).
Good summation... However I talked to the DM about this before.. The encounter lasted all of about 7-8 rounds... real life of less than a minute.. LOL You would have to be there to have seen the layout. Of course there were multiple encounters, as I believe it was designed to engaged in a more stealthful and tactful manner. The party did manage to control the large number of soldiers with Web, and entangle, and a sleet storm. They also had 2 pets, I know they dont count as PC's but they do some good, and one can trip attack. I think if the party is inexpereinced... they should get some breaks... but not 10year plus vetrans... I beleive as you gain experience, so does the challange, reward.. never underestimate any enemy...especially those you cant see. Obviously no recon was done, they had no idea what they were up against. They probably wont do that again.... but it should not have happend in the first place. I believe the DM must be fair, but not hold back. If I walk into an Adult Dragon lair.. I can at the very least prepare for a possible encounter with it, however if I just walk into a lair or stronghold blindly I have no idea what I may find, unless I take the necessary precautions. I have no sympathy really for those that foolishly play, wether complacent, bored, or distracted. In other words if you are the above then find something else to do, dont waste the DM's time or other members... LOL Im ranting...
|
Monte Cooke has this great article on DaD where he talks about something along the lines of this. Players often just assume that the GM isn't going to set up a situation where they will get slaughtered. Sometimes you need to go to great lengths to demonstrate that the opposition will slaughter them and even then it's an iffy thing.
I suspect every GM needs to throw in a few encounters that will just tear their players up on occasion to convince them that they need to be more cautious.
|
|
Thanks Ogre... yeah.. Its nice to get a scare once awhile, keep you on your toes... I dont think this DM does anything malicious... just realistic of sorts. I think that encounter was totaly realistic.. Could you imagince being the opposition.... seeing 5 riders, and 2 large cats come strolling into your camp of sorts... It was a old Monastary ruins in a large clearing there was a Cliff face on 3/4's surrounded by woods.
Anyways there are always options... :)
Thanks for all of your valuable input.
Vampress!
Leading up to this.. well they have a few side quests in NON familiar territory. In the last session they did take out a Giant Minoutor... Hill Giant....minatour qualities that is.. It was a fiendish Giant... so its not like they were taking on peasants before.
The DM's immersion and discriptions are not boring but very informative and creative... We are not playing a video game here and story is pretty important, at least I think so...
Anyways the description of the Humanoid flying out of the Monk ruins was this... Humanoid shape with large Black Cloak, pale complexion, red glowing eyes..... UHHH all I had to say was HELLO... no one did a Religion check, or really said nothing until he blasted the party with 4 magic missles, enervation, and Globe of invulnerability.
But you people are right... there was no time limit, the party had all the time they wanted.. your right, they should have used their resources more wisely.
That doesn't sound boring to me at all, or too easy.
I have had my share of players not using their skills... Knowledge, Spellcraft, etc. and landing the group in a world of hurt, all because they were not listening (doing something on their comps., nose in a book looking to pull a fast-one on the DM), and have been guilty of it myself. I don't know if they failed their listen checks at the table or just didn't care. Hopefully it's a lesson learned... At least until the next time it happens :/
This makes me think about what happened during the playtesting of one of our upcoming monsters. I can't say too much without causing spoilers, but the initial reaction to spotting this monster was, "Well, he looks like he should be pretty straight forward." Followed immediately by "Wait, you said he's throwing A TREE at us?!"
Players are at their most vulnerable when they start taking things for granted.
This makes me think about what happened during the playtesting of one of our upcoming monsters. I can't say too much without causing spoilers, but the initial reaction to spotting this monster was, "Well, he looks like he should be pretty straight forward." Followed immediately by "Wait, you said he's throwing A TREE at us?!"Throwing a tree? My players are going to hate me because of you.
Yup. Uprooting and tossing a tree is one of the creature's special attacks.
Do you think this was too brutal, or realistic? Obviously the leader "Vampire" had instructed that all Religious enemies be eliminated first....
I have to disagree with the people saying that this was fine. I'm guessing that the CR is around 13 or 14 (maybe even higher depending on the level of the vamp mage)and from the sounds of the encounter and from a player's perspective the DM was aiming for a TPK.
Add in the fact that the DM let the party live when the brigands are known for leaving no survivors, and it doesn't come across as the DM being "nice" but rather that the DM badly underestimated the party's abilities and didn't want to end the campaign... and that ruins the trust needed to really get engaged in your characters.
Eg, why should I care about my PC or the town when more likely than not I'm going to just be killed anyways (regardless of whether I plan ahead or not.) And that's obviously totally counter to what a GM who spends a ton of time on his/her adventures wants but consider the impact of trying to be too realistic.(i.e. good planning can be irrelevant against a vastly superiour foe you know like a vampire mage who could show up at an inn and silently one shot each of us in our sleep.)
If the PC's do the realistic thing here, they'd flee town and let someone else deal with it. The problem there is way above their capabilities and already got multiple party members killed.
Now that said HOWEVER alot of the discrepancy between the DM and PC POV's probably lies in what each group is looking for. My guess is the PC's are looking to have fun, with the story and plot being secondary to that. Conversly I suspect the DM is looking to make an amazing story and thinks their plot is inherently fun for the players by definition.
If the DM can't tone the encounters back to match the player's wants and expectations, or at least give them some possibility of winning, some of them will bail for the simple fact that they want to have fun and there are other real world things they could be spending their time on (especially if they're 30+). And of the ones that stay the plot will never really become important to them because their characters are too likely to die on a routine basis.
Nothing in 3.0 (or 3.5, or pathfinder for that matter) states that all characters should survive all encounters. In fact in 3.5 it suggests you should have more fights of lower CR than your level in order to avoid constantly killing characters from the higher level special abilities.
Yeah, I'd say this is just fine. Provided the DM gave them a dumbstruck "Huh?" when they announced they were waltzing into the bandit camp without so much as recon...but I assume that's natural. ^_-
If they'd bothered to think about tactics at all, they could have probably wiped the floor with this encounter (some AoE on those 2nd level fighters, some good battlefield control, etc.), but instead they apparently took a page from Zapp Brannigan's tactics journal...
This is why, when I DM, there is generally a no distractions rule enacted. I'm not going to go around and make sure cell phones are off or anything, but if someone is spending half a session texting I'll say something about it once...after that if they miss their initiative, then their character had a brain fart and stood around with his thumb up his...nose. It's never come up, but I would put a squash to net surfing during a game. Honestly, that's something I would expect from the no attention span teenagers I share the college with...which are not my friends.
As for the encounter itself, I'm fine with it. Enemies who don't act intelligently are insulting to the party in my opinion. As stated above, some encounters should be a ways above average party level.
I can also only assume that the GM pulled punches or your party played exceptionally well/got lucky/is very well equipped.
Else I would have predicted TPK by this.
Some of them use Laptops... which creates distraction... for some??? as they surf the web until its their turn to actually do something.
Easy: Ban laptops for everyone but the GM. I'm sure the average player can manage taking care of one character sheet without his head exploding. Or play in a dead spot with no WLAN access ;-)
As a GM, I do use a lap', but only to help the game. We do have breaks where we watch something funny that shot into the head of one player (I use "one" intentionally, since it is usually the same guy), and we are absent-minded, but when we actually play, we actually play.
LOL sounds like my group - veteran RPGers Except we spend 3 hours in meticulous planing and then forget everything and kick in the front door. Most of the time we are lucky and don't die... When I am DMing I have the worst luck with the dice and the guys get away with stuff that should kill them.
Aside: I've lately read several comments about players using laptops while they're waiting for their turns. Suggested solution: Cut down the wait times and make the game more interesting all around. If the game I'm running can't compete with YouTube, treating my players like kids and banning laptops isn't going to help.
As for the OP's question, the party messed up. If I'd been running the game, I doubt things would've worked out differently. To avoid situations like this in the future, it seems like the players need to be a little more clever.
This is why, when I DM, there is generally a no distractions rule enacted. I'm not going to go around and make sure cell phones are off or anything, but if someone is spending half a session texting I'll say something about it once...after that if they miss their initiative, then their character had a brain fart and stood around with his thumb up his...nose. It's never come up, but I would put a squash to net surfing during a game. Honestly, that's something I would expect from the no attention span teenagers I share the college with...which are not my friends.
As for the encounter itself, I'm fine with it. Enemies who don't act intelligently are insulting to the party in my opinion. As stated above, some encounters should be a ways above average party level.
There are encounters in some of the PF APs that state that the party needs to be careful and pick off the targets one or two encounters at a time.
There comes a time when party stupidity or worse, impulsiveness, can result in the characters getting in WAYYYY over thier head. As long as you give SOME clue that the encounter is too much for them (and that many opponents should have been a dead givaway) then I see no problem with it.
AS long as the GM wasn't planning on bringing these guys all together regardless of how the party attacked, then its OK.
As for distractions, I don't allow the internet at my table. And all texting MUST be turned off. (You text at my game once, and you don't come back. Obviously, there are exceptions for family calls and so on.) Players should be there to play and interact with their friends. If someone calls or texts a player, the FIRST response should be "Hi, I'm gaming so I can't talk." Then if it's important, of course they should take it.
(I played in a game where the GM confiscated a player's phone and locked it out in the car until after the game because the player kept "Tweeting" or whatever they call it.)
Now, if they want to work on other game stuff (writing a journal, painting minis, converting characters) that's fine. Especially if we're in a situation where part of the party is doing something that will take some time while someone else is just "waiting". That sort of stuff allows you to work and pay attention at the same time. But it seems that if you put a computer in front of someone and suddenly their attention is divided.
Banning YouTube or similar distracting websites I can understand... Banning laptops altogether I think is going a little too far imo. This should be a universal house rule. While I know table banter is fun you gather at the table to play a RPG. Everyone should have mutual respect for everyone else at the table, even more so for the DM who has taken time to prepare a scenario for the characters to overcome.
As for me I use a laptop at the table all the time, all of my books are here, links to websites that I use for game purposes, dice rollers, etc. Gone are the days of packing around 40+ pounds of books and boxed sets and dice (at least 40 pounds I walked miles and miles throughout the week before I had a car), all in the name of having fun! Ah, the memories...
|
|
Yeah I hear you X51... the 40lb box of goodies. The encounter I guess was designed as multiple, unless of course the "Alarm" sounded and that was obvious with a frontal aproach.
Your right in saying that if even one person is distracted by surfing.. then its sort of a fail. If they come to just screw around and roll the dice only on their turn then there really is no point of even showing up. Call me old school but we gather to have fun experiencing a creative and colorful story, backed by rounds of Violent and explosive fun! :)
Maybe its time we looked for new gamers... Sad as I have known these people for over 15 years. But if the horse is dying.. time to get a new one.
Vamp: How did the players react? Did they take it well? Sometimes all it takes is one near disaster to bring the group back to focus.
Banning YouTube or similar distracting websites I can understand... Banning laptops altogether I think is going a little too far imo.
Depends on the situation. If people are reasonable and only use the thing for RPG-related stuff, it's okay.
But often, they don't, and banning just some parts instead of the whole machine doesn't always work. It's still there, just a mouse click away, and the temptation proves too much for many. They "just" look something up they just remembered, "before I forget it again".
As for me I use a laptop at the table all the time, all of my books are here, links to websites that I use for game purposes, dice rollers, etc. Gone are the days of packing around 40+ pounds of books and boxed sets and dice (at least 40 pounds I walked miles and miles throughout the week before I had a car), all in the name of having fun! Ah, the memories...
Good for you. And I'm not saying computers at the table are bad in general.
I'm saying some people can't be trusted with them.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
|
I agree that the players ought to have known better ...
HOWEVER, IMO the GM really ought to have reviewed the challenge rating of the encounter. A 5th level party going up against a 7th level sorceror/vampire plus other specialists of 5th and 7th level, AND 20 2nd level fighters is WAY beyond the game mechanics for a 5th level party. An epic fight for such a party (APL 5+3=8) would be 4800 experience points worth of monsters. I started to add up the amount of experience for this encounter and before I was half-way through I was past 9000 experience points!
Having said that, the players did a lot of damage and limped away with only one dead player and a dead animal companion. Not bad considering. What we can observe from this is that these players were experienced and knew how to get it on when the fighting started, but they were being foolhardy and should have done a recon. I'm guessing, like me, that the GM knows he has smart players and ups the difficulty on a regular basis. I'm perscribing (and I give this perscription to myself as well) that he would do well to use the PF challeng rating tools to help him when designing encounters and use it as a guideline.
Thank you for your attention.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
|
LOL sounds like my group - veteran RPGers Except we spend 3 hours in meticulous planing and then forget everything and kick in the front door. Most of the time we are lucky and don't die... When I am DMing I have the worst luck with the dice and the guys get away with stuff that should kill them.
Dude! That is me all over. I had a major encounter with four of my players recently and then another one before that ... all crappy rolls! Missed, missed, missed, failed save, failed save, player's wizard made fortitude save vs. my killer poison, player saved vs. my killer spell, missed again, failed save, dead monster, dead bad guy. How do I shake this cursed dice thing man!?
|
To be honest, any sentient enemy has a right to gang up on the healer if they're able to. After all, they're the band aid, always the major pillar holding the entire party up. If these are trained soldiers then they would know about cutting off an enemy's supply line (the healing). Course you could just get a tower shield and plant it in front of him like a personal wall, keep the arrows and spells off of him.
Interesting. ~pulls out some paper and a pen to take some notes with~
I agree that the players ought to have known better ...
HOWEVER, IMO the GM really ought to have reviewed the challenge rating of the encounter. A 5th level party going up against a 7th level sorceror/vampire plus other specialists of 5th and 7th level, AND 20 2nd level fighters is WAY beyond the game mechanics for a 5th level party. An epic fight for such a party (APL 5+3=8) would be 4800 experience points worth of monsters. I started to add up the amount of experience for this encounter and before I was half-way through I was past 9000 experience points!
Having said that, the players did a lot of damage and limped away with only one dead player and a dead animal companion. Not bad considering. What we can observe from this is that these players were experienced and knew how to get it on when the fighting started, but they were being foolhardy and should have done a recon. I'm guessing, like me, that the GM knows he has smart players and ups the difficulty on a regular basis. I'm perscribing (and I give this perscription to myself as well) that he would do well to use the PF challeng rating tools to help him when designing encounters and use it as a guideline.
Thank you for your attention.
And this is leads to metagaming at if worst.
Players: the DM would never put us up against anything that is too strong for us to handle, so we can just charge into this camp with no plan....
This is why I love random encounters, because sometimes the players encounter something that they cannot defeat, and in those cases they really should use some discretion, otherwise someone they care about(like their cleric) might end up dead.
I once had a level 7 party who were carrying a double crossing merchant tied across one of their spare horses across Cormyr. One random encounter roll later they were facing a patrol of Purple Dragons(minimum level 10 to get the PrC and the partol had 1d6 of them). Facing 4 guys that were most likely higher level than them, they decided to fight their way out of the situation. 3 ended up in dead, and the last one ended up in jail.
|
|
To be honest, any sentient enemy has a right to gang up on the healer if they're able to. After all, they're the band aid, always the major pillar holding the entire party up. If these are trained soldiers then they would know about cutting off an enemy's supply line (the healing). Course you could just get a tower shield and plant it in front of him like a personal wall, keep the arrows and spells off of him.
@James Thomas, noted.... Yes as stated above vetran group. They go after Healers, mages first for the most part, so yes they are well versed in combat.. probably the only thing that saved them. Its hard to describe the events to those that were not there.. Our campaign is both from module and invented of sorts. Like I said the DM painstakenly adds and keeps track of all important villans etc in the "campaign area" when dispatched they do not come back of course, and the story continues.. like a movie per/say.
Anyways sitting there... listening to the events unfold, its not like the 20 lvl 2 warriors (considered hardened elite bandits) came out at once. They all arrived in combat within 3 rounds, and were immediately delt with by area of effect or other magic. Even though it seemed liked it would be TPK...they were far from it in the first 4 rounds.
NO suprise...Iniative... combat ensues... web spell takes out 2 of the archers by blocking their sight,....some ranged combat 1st round complete.
2nd round (Enemy ALARM) Enemy fighters must engage from a distance (pre-designated staging or patrol areas)over 140' 2 of 4 Archers re-position. Party attacks at range, and engages right flank with Melee (Druid, pet, Cleric) Player Fighter moves to engage enemy dwarf and possibly 3 enemy fighters.
3rd round Enemy-VampMage appears unleashed Magic Missle at Sorcerer/Cleric?? Player Sleet Storm unleashes have for 2 Left Flank Archers, and 5 of the Fighters (creating slippery conditions, and blocking LOS) Right side battle with Fighters going well.. the fighters are getting mauled by Ranged attacks from the Player Ranger, Sorcerer, 2 Pets, Cleric and Druid. Although the player have sustained some damaging range damage from the Elite Archers. Enemy Rouge appears on the left flank from the shadows.
4th round was more combat from both sides..more enemy fighters have dropped, the re-positioned Archers are again very acurate and causing the most damage to the party. Enemy Dwarf is slain in a hail of Two weapon combat from Player Fighter and player magic. Druid cast Entangle in the woods to flanking Fighters and the unkown Captain. Vampire has unleashed Enervation at the Cleric.. only rolling a 1.. LOL Enemy Rouge cant hit the broadside of a Barn.
5th round.. sleet storm is pretty much still in effect...Enemy Rogue still cant hit with her arrows, but is avoiding being hit herslef. Enemy Vampire tries to dispell magic on the Sorcerer so the Fighters can engage better.... fail. Player Tiger falls in combat as the numbers from the Right side seemed to have its advantage. More enemy Fighters however get hacked, scorched or Torn appart from the Druid in Raptor form. Enemy Archers do more damage, but are in turn cut down by the avenging Player Fighter and Cleric. Ranger concentrates on the Enemy Rogue.
6th and 7th rounds show both magic and melee, ranged attcks.. most of the fighters in combat are now dead.. 2 are alive 6 are still trapped to the Right flank. The Cleric will fall in the 9th round after being somewhat healed in the 8th by a Archer. The Vampire took devestating Missle attacks by the Ranger..and??? forgot cutting the Vampires HP by half.. The Vampire decides to retreat to its more secure lair as he has used some of his best spells and can better conceal himself in the catacombs under the ruins. The rest of the right flank retreats to the catacombs.. as does the archers left and the Rogue. The players are left to decide to pursue, or retire.
The DM tried to play it realistic as possible, we are not about holding hands and babying people as stated above this is a vetran group and they know what they should do.. and should not. Maybe this is truly a wake up call... I see little remorse myself, and no mercy when I play badly. The area was well documented as a Stronghold of Brigands... this was I guess suppose to go down in sections... more Stealthy approach.. but that was not to be.
Vampress.
|
|
I agree that the players ought to have known better ...
HOWEVER, IMO the GM really ought to have reviewed the challenge rating of the encounter. A 5th level party going up against a 7th level sorceror/vampire plus other specialists of 5th and 7th level, AND 20 2nd level fighters is WAY beyond the game mechanics for a 5th level party. An epic fight for such a party (APL 5+3=8) would be 4800 experience points worth of monsters. I started to add up the amount of experience for this encounter and before I was half-way through I was past 9000 experience points!
Having said that, the players did a lot of damage and limped away with only one dead player and a dead animal companion. Not bad considering. What we can observe from this is that these players were experienced and knew how to get it on when the fighting started, but they were being foolhardy and should have done a recon. I'm guessing, like me, that the GM knows he has smart players and ups the difficulty on a regular basis. I'm perscribing (and I give this perscription to myself as well) that he would do well to use the PF challeng rating tools to help him when designing encounters and use it as a guideline.
Thank you for your attention.And this is leads to metagaming at if worst.
Players: the DM would never put us up against anything that is too strong for us to handle, so we can just charge into this camp with no plan....
This is why I love random encounters, because sometimes the players encounter something that they cannot defeat, and in those cases they really should use some discretion, otherwise someone they care about(like their cleric) might end up dead.
I once had a level 7 party who were carrying a double crossing merchant tied across one of their spare horses across Cormyr. One random encounter roll later they were facing a patrol of Purple Dragons(minimum level 10 to get the PrC and the partol had 1d6 of them). Facing 4 guys that were most likely higher level than them, they decided to fight their...
I agree with you 100% I cant stand Metagaming... I think it is boring.. and childish.. play a video game! Look at Lord of the Rings 1st movie.. the party goes inside the old Dwarven Kingdom.. where by unfortunate circumstance of being not so smart.. they attract the attention of the ENTIRE Goblin Hoard!... and then on top of that a Balrog Demon! way above their level.... and the rest is history.
I play for the adventure and the unknowing... I love the suprises, being scared.... I dont want the DM to make it easy so I can just power thru the entire campaign.. reach 20th level and claim myself Vampire Godess of Actate! Boring.. I want to earn it.
How do I shake this cursed dice thing man!?You cant - just touch everybody else's dice and unluck them level the playing field.
|
|
This scenario was legit and fair.
I've had TPK a couple of times; twice because as the GM I stupidly ran a long string of 'fair' encounters, and when the 'you need to think about this and/or retreat' encounter came up the player assumed that it was going to be equally fair; despite my warnings that this encounter was dangerous. I am ashamed of both times - I should have GM'd better.
By running an encounter with a couple of deaths, and making it clear that the players had to think ahead at least some of the time, the GM may have saved himself a future TPK - and by extension whatever storyline he/she is telling at the time.
This is pretty much it, beat them down enough times and maybe they will figure out they can't win every encounter. My feeling is that players should have a certain amount of caution.
Interesting combat, but obviously the GM pulled punches.
140' is a lot for an ambush (3 rounds to engage alone) onto a camp and makes no sense (everyone on patrol far out, noone inside the camp?) basically nullifying the 20 2nd Level Fighters for quite some time.
The vampire could have buffed himself+others (haste, darkness, bulls strength?) and then meleed the Sorc (and impeded the nearby? ranger) as soon as the Close combat guys were away, this would have caused a 2 round kill probably. Withdrawing made no sense because even if brought to negative HPs he could have easily escaped against such a drawn out party.
So it seems 2 archers + (ineffective) rougue concentrated on the cleric while a largely ineffective Vamp circled overhead not playing out his strengths and the melees getting themselves killed by starting from quite some distance - hardly an unfair bashing in my opinion.
|
|
Interesting combat, but obviously the GM pulled punches.
140' is a lot for an ambush (3 rounds to engage alone) onto a camp and makes no sense (everyone on patrol far out, noone inside the camp?) basically nullifying the 20 2nd Level Fighters for quite some time.
The vampire could have buffed himself+others (haste, darkness, bulls strength?) and then meleed the Sorc (and impeded the nearby? ranger) as soon as the Close combat guys were away, this would have caused a 2 round kill probably. Withdrawing made no sense because even if brought to negative HPs he could have easily escaped against such a drawn out party.
So it seems 2 archers + (ineffective) rougue concentrated on the cleric while a largely ineffective Vamp circled overhead not playing out his strengths and the melees getting themselves killed by starting from quite some distance - hardly an unfair bashing in my opinion.
If thats how your story went sure... However the enemy was not set up in Ambush... They were home, not expecting a foolish frontal assault by a party. Sure they had a Patrol out R Flank. The rest were tending to horses, and carying out usual duties.. The Vampire did buff himself with Globe of Invulnerability, Mage Armor and Shild, The Vampires intention was to not get into Melee with the enemy but let his minions do that as they are Replaceable. Sure the Rogue was inefective.. bad dice rolls.. that happens.
Anyways Im not going over the entire tactics of Roleplaying a storyline, or small stronghold.. ALl I know is a Vampire.. at least one that is intelligent is not going to fly into the middle of a enemy party to spend one round and attack a Sorcerer...even if it killed said Sorcerer.. when the entire Party can move to within striking distance and smash the Vampire with physical attacks... I mean after the Ranger shot the Vampire in one round causing over 30points of Damage.. And the Vampire had 58hp... you think it wise to engage in Melee... when the Vampire saw his Lt. Dwarf dropped in 2 rounds by the Fighter?
Honestly, I dont agree with most here. Mainly because the enemies were so spread out. Even if recon was done, could the party possibly have realized the scope of the threat? If the party's mission is to deal with the brigands, the fact that 'this is the brigand camp' doesnt say to me that this is an extreme threat. The 'there were no survivors in the caravans' line is used in dozens of 1st level adventures, again I dont see anything that would inform players they should be wary. If you want wary players you should actually give them reason to before you start killing them.
In addition, the fact that such a difficult encounter came out little by little meant that the party was already in too deep when they could have realized they should retreat. I am all for having encounters that the party should run from, or find a way to divide. But it should be evident from the start that the party is in over their heads. From the way it is described it is a multi-stage ambush. The initial set of opponents seems fairly managable. Then new ones arrive, making the encounter a difficult one. Then even more enemies arive among the party that is already deep in a fight, at which point retreat is far more difficult. If the whole of enemies in this encounter were noticed within the first couple rounds of this encounter, it would have been clear that retreat is a good idea rather then being a few pulled dm punches away from a tpk.
To me, this party wasnt smart about what they did, but they werent exceptionally stupid either. It seems to me they were lured into an insane encounter by a dm who was probably tired of dealing with a clearly very capable party (they survived a cr 14 or something encounter mostly in tact). And if not for a few key retreats on the part of the enemy the story would have come to a screetching hault.