Rules Questions: What exactly is a combat maneuver?


Rules Questions


Hi everyone,
Our campaign has recently converted from 4th edition to Pathfinder (my character was a warlord. The conversion took a lot of work). We are also a mix of people brand-new to D&D, a couple of 3.5 vets, and a DM that's used to 2nd edition (or at least prefers to run the board whenever possible). All are a really fun bunch, and we're in a really great campaign plot. BUT we're in a bit of rules tornado. We were in the process of learning 4th edition, and now are trying to unlearn it and play Pathfinder. Now to my point:
Last night or so, a halfling rogue tried to throw some salt into a guy's face. The DM felt that this was a combat maneuver, based on the following passage:

Pathfinder PRD states wrote:
"During combat, you can attempt to perform a number of maneuvers that can hinder or even cripple your foe, including bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, and trip. Although these maneuvers have vastly different results, they all use a similar mechanic to determine success."

Basically, his interpretation is that anything not described as a basic attack is a combat maneuver, and therefore it's the attacker's CMB vs the opponents CMD (so as a small character, the halfling's going to take a penalty every time she doesn't make a basic attack.). It's his call as the DM, but I'm not sure that's the rule's intent. It seems to be just a way to stream-line together bull rush, disarm,grapple, overrun and sunder attempts. There are also a few other attacks such as feinting and throwing a splash weapon. Is CMB and CMD really meant to be a catch-all for anything not defined in the book? Is there some other passage that clarifies?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Doing "stuff" during combat that is not defined in the rules falls on GM arbitration. The upcoming APG has a few new maneuvres, but in general if the rules are silent, it's up to the GM.

Shadow Lodge

Gorbacz wrote:
Doing "stuff" during combat that is not defined in the rules falls on GM arbitration. The upcoming APG has a few new maneuvres, but in general if the rules are silent, it's up to the GM.

Agreed. However, that said, I would mechanically treat it as a combat bluff and would suggest it as such next gaming session. You are basically, trying to make him flat footed by blinding him as you manuever the sand into his face.

How does that sound?

All the Best,

Kerney

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I believe that one of the new CM's in APG is called Dirty Trick and covers just such situations. Only 3 weeks before we find out :)


Thanks guys!
Yeah, basically I just wanted to see if Combat Maneuvers are MEANT to be a catch-all for every unspecified scenario. The text itself just doesn't seem strong enough to me to warrant that, and if it does, then it stands to reason that my 8th level half-elven paladin/re-tooled warlord with a dex of 12 has a better chance of throwing AND dodging said salt than the 8th level halfling rogue that has a Dex of over 20, because of BAB and size. It just doesn't seem right to me. This specific attack feels more like either a ranged touch attack, a ranged splash, or combat bluff (feint?), all of which might make him flat-footed for one round (which, in retrospect, still probably wouldn't have helped because our opponent had improved uncanny dodge).
Again, I understand that my DM has the final say in this (and is a great DM), and if he wants to do it this way as a personal call, that's fine. But since we're also trying to re-learn the mechanics (all of us, since I'm new to Pathfinder too), I figure it's a good idea to be clear on them, and their intent.


Caemos wrote:
Last night or so, a halfling rogue tried to throw some salt into a guy's face.

If you're interested, here's how I would arbitrate it. If you're not interested, don't open the spoiler :)

Spoiler:

1) ranged touch attack with a max range of 10 feet
2) If successful, target gets a Reflex save DC 10 + 1/2 your BAB + your Dex modifier.
3) If the save is failed, the target is blinded for 1d4 rounds


Caemos wrote:
Yeah, basically I just wanted to see if Combat Maneuvers are MEANT to be a catch-all for every unspecified scenario.

They're not. Combat Maneuvers are meant to cover the list of specific actions, nothing else.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

AvalonXQ wrote:
Caemos wrote:
Yeah, basically I just wanted to see if Combat Maneuvers are MEANT to be a catch-all for every unspecified scenario.
They're not. Combat Maneuvers are meant to cover the list of specific actions, nothing else.

That said, the upcoming Advanced Player's Guide introduces some new combat maneuvers:

Dirty trick (This would cover all sorts of situations, like the above-mentioned salt throwing)
Drag (Moving a foe physically)
Reposition (Forcing a foe to change his position by overwhelming offense)
Steal (Taking a non-weapon from a foe)


James Jacobs wrote:

That said, the upcoming Advanced Player's Guide introduces some new combat maneuvers:

Dirty trick (This would cover all sorts of situations, like the above-mentioned salt throwing)
Drag (Moving a foe physically)
Reposition (Forcing a foe to change his position by overwhelming offense)
Steal (Taking a non-weapon from a foe)

Just how does Repostion, Drag, and Steal differ from our current CMB options to reposition a opponent to an adjacent square, move yourself and your grappled target at half your movement or Disarm?

On the surface, they seem quite similar.


AvalonXQ wrote:
Caemos wrote:
Yeah, basically I just wanted to see if Combat Maneuvers are MEANT to be a catch-all for every unspecified scenario.
They're not. Combat Maneuvers are meant to cover the list of specific actions, nothing else.

In my humble opinion, CMB and CMD are powerful and flexible tools which should not be restricted only to the 'common' Combat Maneuvers descripted by the Core Rules.

The fact that the APG will show additional actions made via CMB/CMD actually reinforces my idea.

Having an already built-in rule is obviously good, but I believe that some (obviously, not all) unusual actions could be easily simulated with CMB vs. CMD on a case-by-case basis.

Just my 2c.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Pathos wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

That said, the upcoming Advanced Player's Guide introduces some new combat maneuvers:

Dirty trick (This would cover all sorts of situations, like the above-mentioned salt throwing)
Drag (Moving a foe physically)
Reposition (Forcing a foe to change his position by overwhelming offense)
Steal (Taking a non-weapon from a foe)

Just how does Repostion, Drag, and Steal differ from our current CMB options to reposition a opponent to an adjacent square, move yourself and your grappled target at half your movement or Disarm?

On the surface, they seem quite similar.

They do... but I'm not ready to reveal more right now. We're less than a month away from the book's release, though, so won't be much longer to wait!


James Jacobs wrote:
AvalonXQ wrote:
Caemos wrote:
Yeah, basically I just wanted to see if Combat Maneuvers are MEANT to be a catch-all for every unspecified scenario.
They're not. Combat Maneuvers are meant to cover the list of specific actions, nothing else.

That said, the upcoming Advanced Player's Guide introduces some new combat maneuvers:

Dirty trick (This would cover all sorts of situations, like the above-mentioned salt throwing)
Drag (Moving a foe physically)
Reposition (Forcing a foe to change his position by overwhelming offense)
Steal (Taking a non-weapon from a foe)

Okay, this book just became a must-have for me and my game. This is a set of actions that I have been wanting to be spelled out for a long time.


Some more ideas for combat maneuvers (and conditions) can be found here.

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