IMO, power-tripping DMs and those who just aren't interested in the fun of the players make paladins fall. A paladin should only fall if the player wants their character to fall. Anything else, and you have not been clear and will appear to be a jerk (even if you are not one).
Regarding this specific issue, I have run CoT so I know who you are talking about. Any good character would have been justified in killing the victim in question. Regarding the paladin's code, there has been no obvious violation. The victim is evil and could be punished by execution, incarceration for life, or imprisonment in an endless pit with food and water provided on occasion. Letting them go would result in the eventual deaths of other innocents, which would be a violation of the paladin's code. Making up reasons why a skydiver should curl up in a ball after a high altitude drop (instead of being excited and wanting to do it again, which is usually the case) is not really relevant.
If a paladin does not violate the code, they still can fall if they are not good. However, the paladin could very well be acting in the interests of protecting innocent people (i.e., good). Ask the player, and perhaps let them know if they are doing this to protect the innocent, then it is fine, but if they are doing it for personal reasons, it is not good. If they are doing it because they wish to torture another (almost) human being for fun, then they are evil.
Having the paladin fall because of this is just bad DMing. I would leave and never come back to a house in which a DM was that lame. Of course, I almost always DM; so the risk is low that it would become an issue.
That seems a bit off to me. I don't think on its own that is enough to make the Paladin lose their abilities...but it might also depend who the character's deity is. Depending on which deity it is, I would suggest the paladin should be an exemplar of that particular deity's dogma in addition to being LG. A Paladin of Abadar, for example, should be more Lawful than Paladins of other faiths, IMO.
The quote in question might be "He tells the truth, keeps his word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice."
That a paladin would approve or aid that kind of treatment of a prisoner seems a bit strange to me. Especially twice. I don't really see a Paladin giving their word and then not letting the person go. Saying one thing and then doing another (even if they do intend on letting the NPC go later is more the sort of wordplay I'd expect from a LN or even LE character. I think most paladins will abide by both the letter and spirit of their word/oath/vows. Not just the exact wording.
After reading the link on Lawfull good i cant think of a reason why the paladin should loose his powers. "A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished", and remember that LG is not naive, they know as well as any other alignment that letting a dangerus criminal walk is not a good idea!. i would say keeping the prisonor traped untill they can deal with her(witch might be killing her if she is to dangerus to have running around) is a good idea!.
the only problem could be the lying part, if there even was a lie (perhaps he will let her go)... also there are some things that require answering:
was there another(safe) option to store the captive? or was the only other alternative killing her. if she is dangerus having around, letting her go is not really an option.
Do the paladin see this as torure, and even if he does, if there is no other alternative other than execution, what would then be the greater evil?
Well, I'm clearly in the minority here, but given that the solution does no physical damage and neutralizes a potential threat in a non-lethal manner, I wouldn't penalize the paladin at all for a pretty reasonable "field" solution.
If he doesn't honor his/her word, then that's another story, of course.
Ninja'd by Xum
The problem is not that she's in danger per se.
The problem is the Paladin is doing the following :
A) Putting her into at least a continuous scary situation (per DM)
B) Leaving her there helpless with no one to protect her.
C) Going off adventuring and possibly getting killed.If someone comes along and decides to take potshots at the eternally falling prisoner for fun (kobolds? That'd be the B issue), or if he gets killed, then she may not ever get rescued and starve to death (C).
Basically, the paladin is playing VERY fast and loose with the safety of a prisoner he is honor bound to release safely and unharmed. That means he's playing fast and loose with his word of honor. Which means he's playing fast and loose with his god's reputation.
That is not really a problem is it. LG ppl usually uphold the law and in many cases this captive would be fit for execution, had she been killed in combat with smite evil it would have been perfectly ok, now she actually has a chance to live, that is more that she deserve and the paladin is even taking unnesesary risk to keep her alive...she could escape and ruin the quest, kill more inocent ppl and what not!...no where does it say that the paladin is responsible for the safty or comfort of evil captivs, in fact he would have been justified in killing her to protect the quest and the common good!
IMO, power-tripping DMs and those who just aren't interested in the fun of the players make paladins fall. A paladin should only fall if the player wants their character to fall. Anything else, and you have not been clear and will appear to be a jerk (even if you are not one).
Be careful not to over-generalize. On one hand you say that any GM enforcing alignment violations is a bad GM. However sometimes players really do run roughshod over the code of conduct that comes with the class. There is an equal capacity for crap players as there is for crap GMs.
Sometimes players do violate their character class' codes of conduct, and it needs to be addressed. Holding characters accountable for their actions and enforcing the rules is not, in of itself, power-tripping.
That is, the rule can be applied poorly, but that doesn't, in of itself, make it a bad rule.
(Note that I do advocate warnings)
This is a lot like killing PCs. It's unfortunate. I try to avoid it. I don't look out for opportunities to do it. However when happens fair and square, it happens. To avoid it would ruin the fun in a different way.
You all have some pretty good points, both for and against him loosing his Paladin mojo...
But again I described how disturbed she looked after the first time they let her fall. And she's bound and gagged, (so she wouldn't make so much noise and attract other things, they argued) I'm considering having her have an 'accident' during the fall, since it's not a place with vacuum, and therefore windresistance and such might make her fall unstable and being tied up she'd probably have a hard time steering.... I dunno, Is that too evil? To make him not keep his word that way and then hit him with the hammer...?
How many times have they retrieved her?
Are they retrieving her to make sure she is safe or to interrogate her more?When they retrieve her, do they feed and water her?
When you described how disturbed she looked, did you elaborate on that? That is, did you make it clear that it was from fear or such from the free falling rather than disturbed that she hadn't been released yet?
Have you had a discussion with the player, to make sure they understand the situation as you the GM sees it?
I don't have a solid grasp on what is going on, that is the whole story, but based on what you have said, I haven't seen anything that merits the paladin becoming a feat less fighter. Perhaps a bit of counseling and atonement from his church about making promises, their intent and how they were fulfilled would be in order, but not hammering the paladin.
If you kill off the NPC, then the Paladin has not broken his promise, that is the GM deciding to kill the NPC off, and to "hammer" him for it later seems to be punishing the player for playing a Paladin.
You all have some pretty good points, both for and against him loosing his Paladin mojo...
But again I described how disturbed she looked after the first time they let her fall. And she's bound and gagged, (so she wouldn't make so much noise and attract other things, they argued) I'm considering having her have an 'accident' during the fall, since it's not a place with vacuum, and therefore windresistance and such might make her fall unstable and being tied up she'd probably have a hard time steering.... I dunno, Is that too evil? To make him not keep his word that way and then hit him with the hammer...?
How many times have they retrieved her?
Are they retrieving her to make sure she is safe or to interrogate her more?
When they retrieve her, do they feed and water her?
When you described how disturbed she looked, did you elaborate on that? That is, did you make it clear that it was from fear or such from the free falling rather than disturbed that she hadn't been released yet?
Have you had a discussion with the player, to make sure they understand the situation as you the GM sees it?I don't have a solid grasp on what is going on, that is the whole story, but based on what you have said, I haven't seen anything that merits the paladin becoming a feat less fighter. Perhaps a bit of counseling and atonement from his church about making promises, their intent and how they were fulfilled would be in order, but not hammering the paladin.
If you kill off the NPC, then the Paladin has not broken his promise, that is the GM deciding to kill the NPC off, and to "hammer" him for it later seems to be punishing the player for playing a Paladin.
this is all nice and well.. but are you serious the players full well know what they did.
They captured a most likely still wounded woman, stripped her near naked, divided the loot and tied her up, questioned her and made a deal in exchange for information, then they gag her and dump her in an endless pitt while they go exploring for a few hours.
They come back catch the woman in a whirlwind that batters her a bit more.. probably question her again, maybe give her some water and food and dump her back in the pit.
sorry, but there is a difference in how you can treat prisoners, especially if you made a deal with them, pretty sure Sadam Hussein got better treatment, till he got killed ofcourse, and if she is really that bad the paladin should not have made a promise to let her go, he is in the wrong regardless.
The very first thing the player is going to say is, "Well, what should I have done then?"
Unless the DM has a very good answer for this, then you are definitely going to run into some hurt feelings, and justifiably so.
Unless there was a better way to handle the prisoner and uphold the Code, every encounter becomes a Gordian Knot that damns the Paladin no matter what he/she does. What you're going to end up with is a Paladin that makes sure he/she kills every opponent during combat in order to avoid taking prisoners. And that doesn't sound very Paladin or LG like to me.
this is all nice and well.. but are you serious the players full well know what they did.
They captured a most likely still wounded woman, stripped her near naked, divided the loot and tied her up, questioned her and made a deal in exchange for information, then they gag her and dump her in an endless...
You were there?
I did say that I didn't have the full story. I don't know how she was captured (did she surrender, knocked down to negatives and stabilized?). I don't know what information she provided in response for the Paladin's promise. I don't know if they left her wounded or healed. I don't know if they have interrogated her again or more than once. I don't know what other options they had for keeping her a prisoner.
This forever falling place is likely a safe place as you need to be able to fly to navigate around inside and likely has been stable for a long time. The Paladin and the other PCs are likely taking out anything that could harm their prisoner as they move thru the area, so they are providing some protection.
Falling forever likely would not be too traumatic, as we see skydivers enjoying long falls and we also have astronauts who "fall" for weeks at a time with no real ill effects.
In PF, Paladins can work with Evil to defeat a greater Evil. Work with an murderer to defeat an demon, etc...
Leaving someone in a less than desirable position while they try and defeat the greater evil, is not something that should have the Paladin loss their paladinhood.
The "feeling vertigo" suggestion every time that the Paladin uses their powers while the prisoner is falling is a nice twist to keep the Paladin aware of their responsibilities, prisoner and promises. I wouldn't place a penalty on it, but would likely have the paladin puke after every fight that they used their powers. Something to remind them, but not penalize them.
I have to be honest. I don't have a problem with what the Paladin did. But I don't like the goody two shoes paladin. I like mine gritty. I like him to be forceful. I want him to be a prick. I don't want him to have a problem punching that rogue in the mouth a few times to loosen his tongue. If he needs to tie up a prisoner, but he's all out of rope? That everfalling void is just as handy! If not, a cliff works. It's hard to run with broken legs.
That's torture, and that's not how a Paladin works. Paladins are the champions of the good, decent, orderly, and just. Beating up on people until they do what you say is the opposite of that. Inflicting injury because it's more convenient (you can improvise restraints out of a lot of things adventurers would have on them) is an evil act.
By the way, Mistwalker, those astronauts that have no ill effect from prolonged exposure to freefall? Well, unless you consider muscle atrophy, blood pressure problems, bone density loss, heart weakness, and hypoxia to be health problems, you're correct. Astronauts in orbit have to do hours of exercise daily so they're still able to walk once they land.
Just so you know, I wasn't suggesting Lawful Stupid. Merely that a Paladin is expected not only to act in the interests of Justice and their god/goddess, but also with compassion, mercy and honor as well. Showing an enemy mercy isn't stupid. It might be the wrong choice depending on the enemy, since they might come back after your party again, but its still the right thing to do.
That said, no character can be expected to be perfect, not even a paladin. Restraining the NPC in question (who I don't know, since I have not read the material) could be perfectly justified depending on the circumstance and what evil deeds the NPC has committed. Of hand, I don't know what this NPC has done or who they have harmed.
To me, that Paladin hasn't broken any vows yet...but if they've given their word of honor, they'll need to keep it in a "reasonable" fashion. Keeping this NPC there until they think he/she is not longer a threat to what they are doing could count as reasonable, depending on the circumstances. The longer someone stays in a 'bottomless pit' of that sort though, the more psychological damage its going to do. That kind of thing is more than just subjecting a prisoner to 'discomfort'. In the short run it'll be fine. In the long run you'll drive the NPC stark, raving mad. That is detrimental, IMO. And for anyone who thinks that kind of thing isn't mentally damaging, I'd suggest you look and see how long people can handle sensory deprivation. Its not as long as you'd think.
I hear you here. But here's the question. How many times has a prisoner been taken (or left unguarded due to time constraints in a mission) and released in games by a paladin only to return and torment them again? A paladin knows they will keep their word, but they should also know a prisoner will lie under duress, especially if evil. I consider ignoring that fact to be the epitome of Lawful stupid.
Not...
If they released the enemy before securing the dungeon I(as a DM)would stab them(the party)in the back, which is why I think the paladin should not release the prisoner until the dungeon is complete.
By the way, Mistwalker, those astronauts that have no ill effect from prolonged exposure to freefall? Well, unless you consider muscle atrophy, blood pressure problems, bone density loss, heart weakness, and hypoxia to be health problems, you're correct. Astronauts in orbit have to do hours of exercise daily so they're still able to walk once they land.
That isn't caused by the falling, but by the lack of gravity. The falling forever place has full gravity.
So, the astronauts don't suffer any ill effects from the prolonged vertigo, the feeling of falling.
Getting here a bit late, but honestly? I'd reward the paladin's player and have their god send them a dream message congratulating them on their ingenuity.
Why? Simple - they figured out a way to remove this obviously dangerous person temporarily, while in the middle of a hostile environment, without giving them either an easy way out, any way to really betray the party (and jeopardize their mission) or harm anyone else, and gave the evildoer a very strong impetus to stop doing evil things (and a subconscious urge not to, hopefully, because they'll remember how the falling felt last time)...and they did all this without actually harming her.
I say bravo, paladin-player - keep up the good work and put the fear of all things good and holy in the hearts of your foes!
Also, if they had to go back to requestion her...she apparently didn't tell them all she knew before, did she? That means she's very lucky she wasn't simply judged guilty and executed on the spot when they came back and got her with the whirlwind.
That is not really a problem is it. LG ppl usually uphold the law and in many cases this captive would be fit for execution, had she been killed in combat with smite evil it would have been perfectly ok, now she actually has a chance to live, that is more that she deserve and the paladin is even taking unnesesary risk to keep her alive...she could escape and ruin the quest, kill more inocent ppl and what not!...no where does it say that the paladin is responsible for the safty or comfort of evil captivs, in fact he would have been justified in killing her to protect the quest and the common good!
*le sigh*
I really really hate how people justify things as 'Well, she's evil, so anything that the paladin does to her is ok, because he could have just killed her for being evil'.
Wrong. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!
This has nothing to do with how evil or unevil she is. It has to do with a LAWFUL Good paladin having given his word and then breaking the spirit of it. I don't know how many paladin threads I ahve read where everyone comes out of the woodwork and says 'Well, you only look at good, you never hold the lawful to that level'. Yes I do. And now we have a lawful situation and the argument is 'Well, she's evil so since the paladin is good, he can do whatever he wants because she's evil.'
Yes, if he'd killed her in combat, then it's all fine. She was trying to kill him, he has a right to defend himself. Again, if she is killed after a trial, then he's fine, she's had her say in a court of law. He's fine on both law and good. IF, IF, he's been given the right (AND RESPONSIBILITY!) of Low Justice by the King of the land, then he's fine trying and executing her if he chooses.
Unless any of those situations apply, then when he accepted her surrender (which he had to under the codes of honor and chivilry), then he has a responsibility to treat her in a dignified way, both as a Good character, and as a Lawful character keeping the spirit of his word.
1) Did the Paladin participate in needless torture (or threat of it)?
2) Is she in any real danger?
If not, and the Paladin does release her, I don't see the problem. Especially if she has information that will prevent further evil being done.
As long as he a)isn't cruel; and b)is true to his word; it's all good IMO.
Bonus good points to the Paladin if he converts her.
1) Did the Paladin participate in needless torture (or threat of it)?
2) Is she in any real danger?
If not, and the Paladin does release her, I don't see the problem. Especially if she has information that will prevent further evil being done.
As long as he a)isn't cruel; and b)is true to his word; it's all good IMO.
Bonus good points to the Paladin if he converts her.
*edit* He probably should receive a warning for being needlessly cruel if he participated in stripping her.
If he did it to check for weapons etc. then ok, but he should've let her re-dress after. After all being Good is being compassionate.
Oh come on this is falling and everyone knows it is not the fall that hurts it is the abrupt stop at the end.
This fall lacks that entirely....
Is it the paladins fault this individual is too stupid to figure out after the umpteenth time that they are not going to be hurt???
"I keep on fallin"
But yes a fall leading to the paladins fall is ironic and moronic.....
One of the tortures in Dante's inferno was to spend eternity laying under all the filth and horribleness you did in life, and every minute that entire load of filth fell from a great height, stopping only just an inch from you. Then it returned up and repeated. Over and over for eternity.
Sounds pretty close to eternally falling to me, the ground rushing up time after time, never quite hitting you. Seems if that's a valid torture for hell....
Oh, and that doesn't even touch on the 'Strip you naked, not leave you food or water, leave you trussed and and foot helpless...
Yeah, I'm kind of a terrible person. No, in real life, I wouldn't advocate for that, I'm just kidding. And the cliff was just thrown in as an extreme. That's not okay. But I think everyone is seeing things through rose colored glasses. Punching a criminal to save lives isn't evil. It's not GOOD, but it isn't evil. It's morally ambiguous. A paladin who never bends the rules doesn't save lives. Eventually, it comes down to the character and DM. Are you okay with what he did? Does the character do this often, or does the character stick to the code? One slip that doesn't cause any harm (and let's be honest, being caught in an ever falling chamber isn't harmful if you get out. You only ever make the mistake that got you there ONCE if you're smart.) Maybe his god will give him a break? This seems more like verbal warning territory, rather than write up and a week off work. Stern talking to? Yeah! Loss of of powers? Maybe not this time?I have to be honest. I don't have a problem with what the Paladin did. But I don't like the goody two shoes paladin. I like mine gritty. I like him to be forceful. I want him to be a prick. I don't want him to have a problem punching that rogue in the mouth a few times to loosen his tongue. If he needs to tie up a prisoner, but he's all out of rope? That everfalling void is just as handy! If not, a cliff works. It's hard to run with broken legs.That's torture, and that's not how a Paladin works. Paladins are the champions of the good, decent, orderly, and just. Beating up on people until they do what you say is the opposite of that. Inflicting injury because it's more convenient (you can improvise restraints out of a lot of things adventurers would have on them) is an evil act.
Basically gagging and tying your prisoner, you promised to release, down on the front cart of a rollercoaster that will be rollercoasting without stop for hours at a time, while you and your pals are going on adventure does seem kinda cruel to me.
Given the choice, yeah, I'll fall for a minute or two rather than tell the boss why this paladin knows the evil plan and have the boss poke my eyes out with his +4 Greatsword of Shouldn't Have Done That!
+1, ROFL.
Basically gagging and tying your prisoner, you promised to release, down on the front cart of a rollercoaster that will be rollercoasting without stop for hours at a time, while you and your pals are going on adventure does seem kinda cruel to me.
Sometimes in life you are in a position where you can only choose the lesser of two evils. I think the lesser evil is the roller coaster ride.
The other evil potentially gets the party killed allowing a much greater evil to take place.
Basically gagging and tying your prisoner, you promised to release, down on the front cart of a rollercoaster that will be rollercoasting without stop for hours at a time, while you and your pals are going on adventure does seem kinda cruel to me.Sometimes in life you are in a position where you can only choose the lesser of two evils. I think the lesser evil is the roller coaster ride.
The other evil potentially gets the party killed allowing a much greater evil to take place.
It seems unlikely there was no other option, it seems a case of a convenient evil to me and that isn't a paladin's take.
It seems unlikely there was no other option, it seems a case of a convenient evil to me and that isn't a paladin's take.Basically gagging and tying your prisoner, you promised to release, down on the front cart of a rollercoaster that will be rollercoasting without stop for hours at a time, while you and your pals are going on adventure does seem kinda cruel to me.Sometimes in life you are in a position where you can only choose the lesser of two evils. I think the lesser evil is the roller coaster ride.
The other evil potentially gets the party killed allowing a much greater evil to take place.
The other option was to let the bad guy go who may stab them in the back later on, which not only endangers the PC's, but the city they are trying to liberate if they PC's fail. A few hours floating for the bad guy, is not as bad as the possible alternative. I know if I were the DM the guy would come back. The OP has not come back, so I don't know if he DM's like that or not, but in any event I think the floating is the lesser of the two evils.
I don't think letting someone 'fall' for a few hours is *any* type of evil. Sure it might be unsettling, but evil? - I don't see it.
The other option was to let the bad guy go who may stab them in the back later on, which not only endangers the PC's, but the city they are trying to liberate if they PC's fail. A few hours floating for the bad guy, is not as bad as the possible alternative. I know if I were the DM the guy would come back. The OP has not come back, so I don't know if he DM's like that or not, but in any event I think the floating is the lesser of the two evils.It seems unlikely there was no other option, it seems a case of a convenient evil to me and that isn't a paladin's take.Basically gagging and tying your prisoner, you promised to release, down on the front cart of a rollercoaster that will be rollercoasting without stop for hours at a time, while you and your pals are going on adventure does seem kinda cruel to me.Sometimes in life you are in a position where you can only choose the lesser of two evils. I think the lesser evil is the roller coaster ride.
The other evil potentially gets the party killed allowing a much greater evil to take place.
it isnt floating but falling, I probably envision this treatment as alot less humanitarian than most people here, but having a person fall for hours at a time isnt the same as a 90 second fall with an abrupt end. I also can not proof it but I think falling for such an amount of time might actually be lethal especially done gagged and stripped.
There is also the whirlwind from the air elemental they used to catch her, that is physical harm inflicted, one of the reasons I think it is just players making fun too.
I wouldnt punish my players for forgetting to RP a bit, but I'd say the paladin he has been naughty and shouldnt repeat it.
They could just have taken the prisoner along.. sure it isnt convenient, nobody forced them to take a prisoner and make a deal either, this is just PCs taking the shortcut to avoid dealing with inconvenience of prisoners.
I figure most people don't see it as cruel as some sort of detachment from real life, treating a state prisoner like this just is not proper.. sure it might be done for the greater good, but the greater good is quite often just not the good thing to do.
I mean you could have hacked her apart without anyone nagging at your head about it being evil, I believe you should make a difference what happens in combat and outside of combat in such matters.
I would suggest first having some "sign" of his/her god's displeasure appear to the Paladin.
If he/she still fails to "get the message" then you would be within your rights as a GM.
I agree but more likely just a sort of "feeling" like:
You feel as if by doing this you displease (insert god name) and from this continued treatment your connection to the divine will be severed.
Something alone that lines and if OOC he doesn't know what happens when a paladin becomes a ex-paladin, point out he loses all of his abilities, that'll make him perk up.
My take. Yes the paladin is in trouble. Why?
Well, just to reiterate something... they bound her, gagged her and tossed her into a pit where she is endlessly falling. Most of you think it's cruel. It is. Some of you compare it to skydiving. Not so much. You skydive for minutes at a time and I doubt you're tied hand and foot and gagged. For hours. They might as well have killed her. She's going to tumble and spin, probably moreso as she twistss helplessly around in her bonds. She will get sick. And vomit. And probably drown in her own vomit thanks to the helpfuly provided gag. What shmucks.
Have her save, maybe once an hour to avoid puking. Giver her a -1 per hour after the first left in there. If she does it in the hour they get back, check on how long it takes her to drown in her own vomit and give them a reasonable chance to recover her. If she's got a strong stomach she lives. If she doesn't your Paladin is scr3wed.
He gave his word, his god's word in essence. Right or wrong he did it. He may not have intended to commit murder, but if she shuffles off he did. And he managed to break his word too. Pure genius. Yes, that's sarcasm.
If the player whines, lay out the methodology and reason you used. At that point he better plan on atonement or just a career as an ex-Paladin. I'd make the sorry b@stard pay for her resurection. Maybe he would think next time. H3ll, tie her hands, gag her, put a leash on her (rope is good for all that and they had enough to tie her hand and foot) and drag her along. Inconvenient, but the price of making the deal they made.
My 2cp.
it isnt floating but falling, I probably envision this treatment as alot less humanitarian than most people here, but having a person fall for hours at a time isnt the same as a 90 second fall with an abrupt end. I also can not proof it but I think falling for such an amount of time might actually be lethal especially done gagged and stripped.
There is also the whirlwind from the air elemental they used to catch her, that is physical harm inflicted, one of the reasons I think it is just players making fun too.
I wouldnt punish my players for forgetting to RP a bit, but I'd say the paladin he has been naughty and shouldnt repeat it.
They could just have taken the prisoner along.. sure it isnt convenient, nobody forced them to take a prisoner and make a deal either, this is just PCs taking the shortcut to avoid dealing with inconvenience of prisoners.
I figure most people don't see it as cruel as some sort of detachment from real life, treating a state prisoner like this just is not proper.. sure it might be done for the greater good, but the greater good is quite often just not the good thing to do.
I mean you could have hacked her apart without anyone nagging at your head about it being evil, I believe you should make a difference what happens in combat and outside of combat in such matters.
How is falling lethal without you hitting anything, and the paladin fully intends to release the prisoner when it is safe to do so.
Taking the prisoner along is a bad idea, just another way to get the PC's killed. They would be better off killing the NPC, which they probably would have done if not for the paladin. The inconvenient thing was letting the prisoner live at since even after the prisoner is released they may still report to the boss about the meddlers.
The greater good is called the greater good because it is often the best you can do. If the greater good is still evil my point about choosing the lesser of two evils stands. I think killing is greater evil than accidental torture. I don't think the PC's think the action is evil so its not nagging at them, and I dont think its evil either. There is a difference between being tortured and inconvenienced. Right now the faller is inconvenienced until the OP comes back and describes how it is torture.
Wrote on why it's OK.
See my post above yours.
You all have some pretty good points, both for and against him loosing his Paladin mojo...
But again I described how disturbed she looked after the first time they let her fall. And she's bound and gagged, (so she wouldn't make so much noise and attract other things, they argued) I'm considering having her have an 'accident' during the fall, since it's not a place with vacuum, and therefore windresistance and such might make her fall unstable and being tied up she'd probably have a hard time steering.... I dunno, Is that too evil? To make him not keep his word that way and then hit him with the hammer...?
Then you are wrong for using DM powers to force the fall on him. I dont think a deity would count that against the paladin. That is like if I agree to pick you up from work, but I get robbed on the way there. You really can't get mad at me for getting robbed can you?
My take. Yes the paladin is in trouble. Why?
Well, just to reiterate something... they bound her, gagged her and tossed her into a pit where she is endlessly falling. Most of you think it's cruel. It is. Some of you compare it to skydiving. Not so much. You skydive for minutes at a time and I doubt you're tied hand and foot and gagged. For hours. They might as well have killed her. She's going to tumble and spin, probably moreso as she twistss helplessly around in her bonds. She will get sick. And vomit. And probably drown in her own vomit thanks to the helpfuly provided gag. What shmucks.
Have her save, maybe once an hour to avoid puking. Giver her a -1 per hour after the first left in there. If she does it in the hour they get back, check on how long it takes her to drown in her own vomit and give them a reasonable chance to recover her. If she's got a strong stomach she lives. If she doesn't your Paladin is scr3wed.
He gave his word, his god's word in essence. Right or wrong he did it. He may not have intended to commit murder, but if she shuffles off he did. And he managed to break his word too. Pure genius. Yes, that's sarcasm.
If the player whines, lay out the methodology and reason you used. At that point he better plan on atonement or just a career as an ex-Paladin. I'd make the sorry b@stard pay for her resurection. Maybe he would think next time. H3ll, tie her hands, gag her, put a leash on her (rope is good for all that and they had enough to tie her hand and foot) and drag her along. Inconvenient, but the price of making the deal they made.
My 2cp.
If the DM is going to do that then a skill check of some sort should be used to let them know what might happen to the victim. Using a DM's real life knowledge is not fair. Now if they know, and she dies sure the paladin is in trouble, but just making up arbitrary ways to kill an NPC is not cool at all. Not playing a paladin the way a DM wants you to should not add extras such as paying for a rez.
If the DM is going to do that then a skill check of some sort should be used to let them know what might happen to the victim. Using a DM's real life knowledge is not fair. Now if they know, and she dies sure the paladin is in trouble, but just making up arbitrary ways to kill an NPC is not cool at all. Not playing a paladin the way a DM wants you to should not add extras such as paying for a rez.My take. Yes the paladin is in trouble. Why?
Well, just to reiterate something... they bound her, gagged her and tossed her into a pit where she is endlessly falling. Most of you think it's cruel. It is. Some of you compare it to skydiving. Not so much. You skydive for minutes at a time and I doubt you're tied hand and foot and gagged. For hours. They might as well have killed her. She's going to tumble and spin, probably moreso as she twistss helplessly around in her bonds. She will get sick. And vomit. And probably drown in her own vomit thanks to the helpfuly provided gag. What shmucks.
Have her save, maybe once an hour to avoid puking. Giver her a -1 per hour after the first left in there. If she does it in the hour they get back, check on how long it takes her to drown in her own vomit and give them a reasonable chance to recover her. If she's got a strong stomach she lives. If she doesn't your Paladin is scr3wed.
He gave his word, his god's word in essence. Right or wrong he did it. He may not have intended to commit murder, but if she shuffles off he did. And he managed to break his word too. Pure genius. Yes, that's sarcasm.
If the player whines, lay out the methodology and reason you used. At that point he better plan on atonement or just a career as an ex-Paladin. I'd make the sorry b@stard pay for her resurection. Maybe he would think next time. H3ll, tie her hands, gag her, put a leash on her (rope is good for all that and they had enough to tie her hand and foot) and drag her along. Inconvenient, but the price of making the deal they made.
My 2cp.
If the paladin at the very least doesn't realize this experimental skydiving of the prisoner 'might' be dangerous he is too bloody stupid to be a paladin.
Y'know, I just want to point something out - if you (the general you, not specifically the OP) as a GM strip paladin powers because they took a prisoner and put her in a frightening, but not dangerous, place to keep her out of trouble while they fi8nish their mission...you're basically handing your players a card that says "kill everything that you fight, don't give it a chance for surrender, or bad things will happen to you".
Seriously...talking about her dying because she throws up while gagged? Ok, so when they find another prisoner and tie him up and lock him in a room, well, surely the paladin will lose his powers because the prisoner had a panic attack and suffocated on the gag, right? And the time after, she'll scream for help since they left her ungagged and be killed by something else in the dungeon, and poor paladin gets to be an ex-paladin again, yeah? And surely, when they bring the next prisoner along because clearly leaving prisoners in supposedly safe places is a bad idea, and said prisoner happens to get caught in a fireball, well, sorry Mr. Paladin, you shouldn't have brought your prisoner into a dangerous place and had them helpless like that.
If you want to be that way about it, it's your call...but expect swift death for anything they meet so that their foes won't have a chance to surrender. Maybe even constant silence spells being cast on things for the paladin to keep with him so that even if something tries to surrender, he won't hear it.
If the paladin at the very least doesn't realize this experimental skydiving of the prisoner 'might' be dangerous he is too bloody stupid to be a paladin.
I dont think skydiving is a medieval concept, but at that point his deity(DM) can let him know. I don't think a deity with any common sense drops a pally for not having scientific knowledge which is what it boils down too. Dropping a pally for committing an act he knows is evil is a different thing altogether.
If the DM is going to do that then a skill check of some sort should be used to let them know what might happen to the victim. Using a DM's real life knowledge is not fair. Now if they know, and she dies sure the paladin is in trouble, but just making up arbitrary ways to kill an NPC is not cool at all. Not playing a paladin the way a DM wants you to should not add extras such as paying for a rez.
It's not arbitrary. Unless life is. I don't think too many people in a PF world skydive. Skillchecks... maybe if someone has a magic item / spell for flying. A comment about the spinning motion of the captive and her distress should be all they need. If they thought it through they would have considered the possibility anyway. Air sickness and sea sickness aren't that uncommon in our world. Her distress after the first time might have led them to consider it as well. Anyway, it's called consequence. Playing cruel games with someone's life (even in a game) has them. You could always let her puke on them when they hall her in or let them "rescue" her before she dies. There is a lot of RP potential in this situation.
As for not paying for resurection... well, he killed her (if she dies). The cost would be a good lesson. It's something he should think of anyway (my players would). Trying to keep track of her, make sure she doesn't do anything too nasty and try to convert her has some potential too (depending on the characters) :)
Life is like that.
I dont think skydiving is a medieval concept, but at that point his deity(DM) can let him know. I don't think a deity with any common sense drops a pally for not having scientific knowledge which is what it boils down too. Dropping a pally for committing an act he knows is evil is a different thing altogether.
Negligent homicide is in your Paladin's code as OK? Besides I think atonement is the better option.
Y'know, I just want to point something out - if you (the general you, not specifically the OP) as a GM strip paladin powers because they took a prisoner and put her in a frightening, but not dangerous, place to keep her out of trouble while they fi8nish their mission...you're basically handing your players a card that says "kill everything that you fight, don't give it a chance for surrender, or bad things will happen to you".
Seriously...talking about her dying because she throws up while gagged? Ok, so when they find another prisoner and tie him up and lock him in a room, well, surely the paladin will lose his powers because the prisoner had a panic attack and suffocated on the gag, right? And the time after, she'll scream for help since they left her ungagged and be killed by something else in the dungeon, and poor paladin gets to be an ex-paladin again, yeah? And surely, when they bring the next prisoner along because clearly leaving prisoners in supposedly safe places is a bad idea, and said prisoner happens to get caught in a fireball, well, sorry Mr. Paladin, you shouldn't have brought your prisoner into a dangerous place and had them helpless like that.
If you want to be that way about it, it's your call...but expect swift death for anything they meet so that their foes won't have a chance to surrender. Maybe even constant silence spells being cast on things for the paladin to keep with him so that even if something tries to surrender, he won't hear it.
+1. A DM can take a pally's powers for any reason no matter what if he wants to justify it bad enough. If the person is in danger, just say so.
A pally in one of my games was about to take the magical items from an NPC and add them to the party treasure. I reminded him through the NPC that was stealing, since he had no legal rights to gain ownership of the items so the pally did not take anything. He would have to turn the items over to the authorities along with the prisoner.
If the DM is going to do that then a skill check of some sort should be used to let them know what might happen to the victim. Using a DM's real life knowledge is not fair. Now if they know, and she dies sure the paladin is in trouble, but just making up arbitrary ways to kill an NPC is not cool at all. Not playing a paladin the way a DM wants you to should not add extras such as paying for a rez.
It's not arbitrary. Unless life is. I don't think too many people in a PF world skydive. Skillchecks... maybe if someone has a magic item / spell for flying. A comment about the spinning motion of the captive and her distress should be all they need. If they thought it through they would have considered the possibility anyway. Air sickness and sea sickness aren't that uncommon in our world. Her distress after the first time might have led them to consider it as well. Anyway, it's called consequence. Playing cruel games with someone's life (even in a game) has them. You could always let her puke on them when they hall her in or let them "rescue" her before she dies. There is a lot of RP potential in this situation.
As for not paying for resurection... well, he killed her (if she dies). The cost would be a good lesson. It's something he should think of anyway (my players would). Trying to keep track of her, make sure she doesn't do anything too nasty and try to convert her has some potential too (depending on the characters) :)
Life is like that.
It sounds like a DM trying to control my character to me. If you as the DM know the NPC is in danger, and the paladin is not being malicious then there is nothing wrong with saying so. Now if the pally is warned and ignores you then it is on him.
The way I DM is that if you let someone live and they kill people you are in trouble because the paladin code saysPRD
help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends),
Now if the paladin talks the party into letting someone go and they kill someone, then the pally has unintentionally broken his code. Once again a DM can jerk a paladin around no matter what he does, which is why I said the pally should be given some type of notice. I would not remove the paladin's for that, but that argument is there. "Your players would", is a terrible example, because they play for you. Of course if you are DM'ing they would. You also keep assuming the paladin is trying to be cruel. I am looking at it from the point of he does not know she is in danger. Now if the paladin is being a jerk he deserves what he gets, but I really think he does not know what is going on. The OP has not made too many post, and has not let the player present his side of the case.
Negligent homicide is in your Paladin's code as OK? Besides I think atonement is the better option.I dont think skydiving is a medieval concept, but at that point his deity(DM) can let him know. I don't think a deity with any common sense drops a pally for not having scientific knowledge which is what it boils down too. Dropping a pally for committing an act he knows is evil is a different thing altogether.
Negligent homicide never happens in my games if I use my real life knowledge because while the PC may not know what may happen his deity will. The deity will at worse give a hint, and the hints are normally pretty obvious. I would also not have a deity strip a good warrior because he is not a scientist. Only those who are deemed unworthy to be a paladin should lose their powers.
If the paladin at the very least doesn't realize this experimental skydiving of the prisoner 'might' be dangerous he is too bloody stupid to be a paladin.I dont think skydiving is a medieval concept, but at that point his deity(DM) can let him know. I don't think a deity with any common sense drops a pally for not having scientific knowledge which is what it boils down too. Dropping a pally for committing an act he knows is evil is a different thing altogether.
that is kinda my point, the paladin DOESN'T KNOW what might happen if she is left in there for a good while, it MIGHT very well be dangerous, and the paladin doesn't really care, despite that he made a promise to release her.
Catching her in a whirlwind that deals 2d6 points of damage is equal to dumping her in a 20' deep pit, will that do for physical harm ?
Y'know, I just want to point something out - if you (the general you, not specifically the OP) as a GM strip paladin powers because they took a prisoner and put her in a frightening, but not dangerous, place to keep her out of trouble while they fi8nish their mission...you're basically handing your players a card that says "kill everything that you fight, don't give it a chance for surrender, or bad things will happen to you".
If it was just frightening the Paladin might get divine warnings. If the possibility of the Paladin getting his hand slapped by his deity causes his party to kill everything they encounter and he consents then he isn't a Paladin anyway. Just a thug. Mostly, I don't see a threat to his station causing the other players to go "we must kill everything" anyway. Unless they're busy metagaming to keep the useful Paladin powers around.
Seriously...talking about her dying because she throws up while gagged? Ok, so when they find another prisoner and tie him up and lock him in a room, well, surely the paladin will lose his powers because the prisoner had a panic attack and suffocated on the gag, right? And the time after, she'll scream for help since they left her ungagged and be killed by something else in the dungeon, and poor paladin gets to be an ex-paladin again, yeah? And surely, when they bring the next prisoner along because clearly leaving prisoners in supposedly safe places is a bad idea, and said prisoner happens to get caught in a fireball, well, sorry Mr. Paladin, you shouldn't have brought your prisoner into a dangerous place and had them helpless like that.
They call it negligent homicide or manslaughter. Under color of authority you might say for a Paladin :) Once you cuff them they're your responsibility.
Not too big a chance of having a panic attack in a room. Really. That could happen in a jail cell too. Anybody tied up and screaming for help in a dungeon with monsters would be classed as a "suicide" or an "idiot". Not the paladin's fault (assuming they left them in as secure a situation as possible). If she dies due to someone elses actions (a fireball while with the party), again, not the Paladin's issue. He didn't throw the fireball. As well you know. If we're talking a dungeon with monsters, coming along with the party is all the safety anyone could reasonably provide.
If you want to be that way about it, it's your call...but expect swift death for anything they meet so that their foes won't have a chance to surrender. Maybe even constant silence spells being cast on things for the paladin to keep with him so that even if something tries to surrender, he won't hear it.
Swift death? No. Just some forthought and consideration of consequences. The silence bit is on par with walking around the corner so he doesn't witness them murdering prisoners. He'll know. So will his god. I don't think gods go with the "playing dumb" bit for their Paladins.
If the paladin at the very least doesn't realize this experimental skydiving of the prisoner 'might' be dangerous he is too bloody stupid to be a paladin.I dont think skydiving is a medieval concept, but at that point his deity(DM) can let him know. I don't think a deity with any common sense drops a pally for not having scientific knowledge which is what it boils down too. Dropping a pally for committing an act he knows is evil is a different thing altogether.
that is kinda my point, the paladin DOESN'T KNOW what might happen if she is left in there for a good while, it MIGHT very well be dangerous, and the paladin doesn't really care, despite that he made a promise to release her.
Catching her in a whirlwind that deals 2d6 points of damage is equal to dumping her in a 20' deep pit, will that do for physical harm ?
I did not take any damage from that place when I played through it, that might be why I missed the 2d6. Does the adventure actually say that or is the OP adding things just to mess with the pally?
If the possibility of the Paladin getting his hand slapped by his deity causes his party to kill everything they encounter and he consents then he isn't a Paladin anyway. Just a thug. Mostly, I don't see a threat to his station causing the other players to go "we must kill everything" anyway. Unless they're busy metagaming to keep the useful Paladin powers around.
Becoming a warrior is not a hand slap. I also think that a DM and player should discuss what they expect from a pally before it becomes an issue though.
It sounds like a DM trying to control my character to me. If you as the DM know the NPC is in danger, and the paladin is not being malicious then there is nothing wrong with saying so. Now if the pally is warned and ignores you then it is on him.
The way I DM is that if you let someone live and they kill people you are in trouble because the paladin code saysPRD
help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends),Now if the paladin talks the party into letting...
I didn't say he shouldn't get warnings. This one knew the prisoner was distressed after the first time they pulled her in. I hate to spell out things too obviously, but I provide plenty of hints as needed. The characters actions are up to them. The consequences are up to the DM.
In a game once another PC committed a random murder (while in company with mine) in a city at night. He wanted to "know what would happen". A lot of screaming ensued, the watch was called (verbally) and a general hue and cry set off (the neighbors came out to see what was up). We both ran like H3ll. He (a fighter) got caught. My monk hid on a roof until it was safe to get out of the area. I watched his execution. Had a beer while doing so. Consequences.
Becoming a warrior is not a hand slap. I also think that a DM and player should discuss what they expect from a pally before it becomes an issue though.
No, it's not. That's why I favor attonement for negligence, not expulsion. If he won't "do the right thing", he's out. And yes, the expectations of the paladin's code are something they should be intimately familiar with.
*edit* In this case, whether the girl dies or lives, I see it as a learning experience. He has to tighten it up and pay attention to his actions. Man up, or woman up as the case may be. Or suffer the consequences of his failure to live up to the code.
I did not take any damage from that place when I played through it, that might be why I missed the 2d6. Does the adventure actually say that or is the OP adding things just to mess with the pally?
I'm not sure at what point the damage to the prisoner came up in the thread. I think that goes to the method of retrieval they used -- an elementals whirlwind. Causes 2d6 damage when it sets you down. The Paladin apparently did not object (that we know of) to this treatment of his prisoner.
It's not arbitrary. Unless life is. I don't think too many people in a PF world skydive. Skillchecks... maybe if someone has a magic item / spell for flying. A comment about the spinning motion of the captive and her distress should be all they need. If they thought it through they would have considered the possibility anyway. Air sickness and sea sickness aren't that uncommon in our world. Her distress after the first time might have led them to consider it as well. Anyway, it's called consequence. Playing cruel games with someone's life (even in a game) has them. You could always let her puke on them when they hall her in or let them "rescue" her before she dies. There is a lot of RP potential in this situation.
As for not paying for resurection... well, he killed her (if she dies). The cost would be a good lesson. It's something he should think of anyway (my players would). Trying to keep track of her, make sure she doesn't do anything too nasty and try to convert her has some potential too (depending on the characters) :)
Life is like that.
1) Just how often do you think air sickness happens?
I took a few flights recently and of all the people on the planes, not one person appeared to have been sick. Some of these flights were on smaller planes in turbulence and no one was sick on these flights, not the young kids, not the senior citizens, not even the pregnant women.2) This NPC is some kind of assassin, who apparent knows the place, and likely has used fly spells or magic items in the past. This means that she likely would not be panicking in the falling place, as she would know that you never hit anything, that you are relatively safe as long as you do get taken out so that you don't die of a lack of water.
3) Trying to resurrect someone who you "tortured" to death will likely not work because the spirit will not want to return in a place where they are under your control.
4) You seem to be saying that the Paladin will be responsible for the NPC for the rest of their lives. This is a huge burden and would likely mean that the PCs would never taken any prisoners.
5) Then how should the Paladin have secured the prisoner?
Taken her with them? How is it that the Paladin is fine if she is killed by a fireball that she couldn't evade to bonds that he put on her, but is responsible if she dies of fright because of those same bonds?
You seem to be saying no matter what happens, the Paladin is responsible. IF the Paladin helps fight off some bandit so that the merchant is safe, and the merchant goes on to poison the well of the town and kill hundreds, the Paladin should lose their paladinhood. If the Paladin sees an adult strike a child, then they should "do" something, otherwise they lose their powers if the child is killed or if the child kills the adult. At least, that is how I am reading what you are saying. Am I correct?