Just to clarify a few points that some seem to have misconstrued; I do appreciate Paizo's inclusion of controversial topics such as homosexuality and sexism into the campaign setting. I love gritty games and wouldn't prefer a completely whitewashed P.C. setting. My issue isn't with the inclusion of differing viewpoints in the campaign setting; my issue lies with assigning them to a patron that heroic characters are encouraged to follow. It seems, to me at least, needlessly divisive rather than inclusive.
Yeah, see, what you propose would be a kind of PC whitewashing. "Heroes must have no negative features" is far too black-and-white to really fit Golarion. Expect shades of grey.
Some have suggested that I should simply relax, this being about a game and all. After reading a few dozen posts stating that same thing however, I might suggest that they're the ones who need to relax.
You tell them to relax? Relax man! :P
As a DM, I'd hope that my players see the role playing potential for such a situation. I would even encourage a strong-willed female PC as a potential follower. Perhaps part of the background could be that the character grew up in a rural area following the beliefs of Erastil. She rebelled and went our into the world but found that she liked more of her upbringing than she had detested. She eventually returned, perhaps accepting the good that Erastil does, but still harboring some opposition to his views. This could play out rather well in a few ways.
1. The PC may create a small subsect of worship.
2. Conflicts with some more hardline followers of Erastil could add to roleplay, but as she gains powers the PC feels more vindicated that her god supports her as well despite her views.
3. She may even get into arguements with her god's heralds or Erastil himself as she gains power. I could see a herald mentioning how pleased Erastil is of her works even though he wishes she would (well settle down, have children, or whatever she isn't doing by that time).
4. I would reward such roleplaying as well. While she may have vocal enemies, I'd make sure the rewards were worth while. In real life we don't always have the opportunity to fight against things in society we don't like. I think it would be fun to play this PC, outstrip my naysayers in power, and earn the respect of a god.
In the end, I'd probably play this a bit like a father/daughter relationship as it grows. Of course, he'd like her to settle down and have children, however, he's a good god and still wants the best of his child.
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I find nothing at all sexist in Cayden Cailean's outlook. He's all for adventure - in almost every meaning, but he's hardly limited to male adventurers being gallant and then having a roll in the hey with a grateful damsel just saved form distress. He is totally for adventuresses being gallant and then rolling in the hey with men they meet.Just look at his herald - it's a female angel who acts just like that!
Off topic post, I'm new to Pathfinder as in the last two weeks. Where can I find this wonderful information.
All the Best,
Kerney
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I find nothing at all sexist in Cayden Cailean's outlook. He's all for adventure - in almost every meaning, but he's hardly limited to male adventurers being gallant and then having a roll in the hey with a grateful damsel just saved form distress. He is totally for adventuresses being gallant and then rolling in the hey with men they meet.Just look at his herald - it's a female angel who acts just like that!
Off topic post, I'm new to Pathfinder as in the last two weeks. Where can I find this wonderful information.
All the Best,
Kerney
IIRC, his writeup (also by SKR, I believe) is located in Children of the Void, Part 2 (maybe 3) of the Second Darkness Adventure Path. He also gets a writeup (along with everyone else in the pantheon) in Gods & Magic, and a tiny little blurb in the Core Rules and Campaign Setting books.
I find nothing at all sexist in Cayden Cailean's outlook. He's all for adventure - in almost every meaning, but he's hardly limited to male adventurers being gallant and then having a roll in the hey with a grateful damsel just saved form distress. He is totally for adventuresses being gallant and then rolling in the hey with men they meet.Just look at his herald - it's a female angel who acts just like that!
Off topic post, I'm new to Pathfinder as in the last two weeks. Where can I find this wonderful information.
All the Best,
Kerney
Hi Kerney,
The individual article for Cayden is in Pathfinder# 14: Children of the Void. The Bestiary for that issue has the stats and information for Thais (his lovely blue ribbon-clad herald) as well. :)
I hope that helps!
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
Of course not. It's the big words. You need to present the topic correctly!reading Lovecraft and Howard to a nine month old isn't as productive as you might think.
See, it's this kind of stuff that increases the chances I'll be sleeping on the couch tonight, despite the fact that I'm the nominal "Head of Our Household."
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I find nothing at all sexist in Cayden Cailean's outlook. He's all for adventure - in almost every meaning, but he's hardly limited to male adventurers being gallant and then having a roll in the hey with a grateful damsel just saved form distress. He is totally for adventuresses being gallant and then rolling in the hey with men they meet.Just look at his herald - it's a female angel who acts just like that!
Off topic post, I'm new to Pathfinder as in the last two weeks. Where can I find this wonderful information.
All the Best,
Kerney
He also has an entry on the Pathfinder Wik.
You can also find a lot of information on the Pathfinder Wiki. It doesn't have all the details, but is a good general source.
Off topic post, I'm new to Pathfinder as in the last two weeks. Where can I find this wonderful information.All the Best,
Kerney
If no one has done so yet let me say, Howdy and welcome to the boards Hands out rum
Also if you do not have the campaign setting yet, hold off on that the revised version is coming out in September.
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I'm happy to see that so many people have chimed in, though perhaps a bit dismayed by the reaction of some.
Some of us are rabid fanboys for whom Paizo is more-than-just-a-company. So there can be some over-reaction but, hey, welcome to the internet!
You would probably have got a more constructive discussion if your opening post had been along the lines of: "My player isn't comfortable with Erastil's attitude to women: any ideas on how to handle that?"
Instead you went in with the idea that the setting had a problem. You assumed you were right; which is dangerous most of the time, let alone on an rpg forum.
"understandably offended by finding such nonsense..."
C'mon, you're telling us what to think. That's not friendly discussion starting stuff.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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Ah, gaming, where there is no sexism (except for the drow matriarchy) or racism (except for PCs wreaking racially-motivated violence against orcs and goblinoids) or religious intolerance (except for places like Razmiran and Rahadoum) or political oppression (except for Galt and Cheliax).
As a native Californian, I got your "Galt" joke. :^ )
As a DM, I'd hope that my players see the role playing potential for such a situation. I would even encourage a strong-willed female PC as a potential follower.
I initially suggested several ideas similar to those you propose. Although the female players in my game are willing to deal with the occasional sexist NPC, they've no interest in participating in a game in which belittlement of women will be an ongoing routine; it takes a tedious and frustrating part of their real lives and makes it a tedious and frustrating part of their hobby. It'd be like having to routinely fill out tax forms in-game; how would that be fun? =)
They also couldn't justify their characters willfully following a god who promotes such nonsense; it's beyond their suspension of disbelief.
Thanks for the suggestions though. =)
They also couldn't justify their characters willfully following a god who promotes such nonsense; it's beyond their suspension of disbelief.
Ya know I know a few faiths and women who are of that faith that believe the same thing whole heartily. I don't see any disbelief there as people in real life believe and act that way, yes even in this day and age. Some of theses folks go, far, far farther then Erastil, thinking women should not speak or do anything without the say so of the husbands.
I can understand your players not liking it, but to say it's unbelievable is a bit far retched really.
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I'm not saying that the world shouldn't have things that we vehemently oppose, but I do think those disdainful elements shouldn't be set up as things that the PCs are expected to support; which is the case with Erastil in the Kingmaker AP.
Having read five of the six adventures in the Kingmaker series, I can honestly say that the PCs are not expected to support Erastil in the least. There is one lost temple to his faith in the first adventure, which makes sense because it is a wilderness area and he is a wilderness god. There is also one priest of his who is a named NPC in that same adventure who could, possibly maybe sorta, help the PCs out if the DM feels they need it. After that, Erastil isn't mentioned a whole lot.
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As a DM, I'd hope that my players see the role playing potential for such a situation. I would even encourage a strong-willed female PC as a potential follower.I initially suggested several ideas similar to those you propose. Although the female players in my game are willing to deal with the occasional sexist NPC, they've no interest in participating in a game in which belittlement of women will be an ongoing routine; it takes a tedious and frustrating part of their real lives and makes it a tedious and frustrating part of their hobby. It'd be like having to routinely fill out tax forms in-game; how would that be fun? =)
They also couldn't justify their characters willfully following a god who promotes such nonsense; it's beyond their suspension of disbelief.
Thanks for the suggestions though. =)
Oh come on, really now this is getting ridiculous.
You have been presenting this issue as if Erastil was central to the campaign. He's not.
You've been presenting this as if sexism was Erastil's "portfolio" & central to his faith. Its not.
You (or your players) are misrepresenting or misunderstanding the material to create a problem where none exists. If you continue to look for problems/offense where none exists, you'll find yourself jousting with windmills.
This is starting to sound like the people who mistakenly believe that our constitution guarentees a freedom FROM (exposure to) religion rather than a freedom OF (choosing your own) religion. This is a roleplaying game. its about conflict. Conflict with monsters, conflict with cultures, and yes, conflicts withing your character. To expect the writers to remove anything you find vaguely offensive is unreasonable and unrealistic. Remember YOU have made this a central issue of the campaign, not Paizo or its authors. They chose conflict with fey, and evil states as central issues. If you and your players insist on taking these fringe elements of the campaign (erastil's faith and doctrine) that amount to flavor or color and make them central to the game, that's a problem of your making. It looks likely that the solution will be in your hands as well.
On a side note, I am dismayed as an ardent social progressive and self-described liberal & feminist that I have felt compelled to take the counter-position in this discussion. Sometimes when crusading for social justice you can go too far and actually hurt your position. If you want to know why the reaction of some posters was so vehement, I suspect you need look no farther than this reason.
In Kingmaker 4: Blood for Blood, the Mayor's wife, Latricia Evanore, (a cleric of Erastil and the priestess of Tatzlford)is described as being the one who makes the important decisions in the village.
I think this presents an interesting character to interact with. She is a strong woman whose job is to tend to the needs of the community and ensure that the community prospers and the children are safe.
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if a LG god has a dogma like this:
"Should a cleric of Erastil, either male or female, who advocates that a wife leave her abusive husband loose his divine powers because it conflicts with the god's tenet that women "should defer to and support their husbands"
You aren't quoting the write-up for Erastil there. You're quoting another poster. Nowhere in the write-up does it even imply that Erastil would strip a priest of power for breaking up an abusive relationship.
It does imply that some of his priests might take an abusive husband out behind the shed for a "talking to" that might possibly involve a club....
Erastil as an old sexist god amuses me.
To quote a recent movie release "It's SO "
I appreciate the fluff of it, and will have the priest of Erastil quietly talk to my female and male PCs about settling down and starting a family.
Erastil is a believer of the family unit. Note he also doesn't really have a thing for adventurers of any kind. He feels men need to be working to support/provide for their family, and women should support/nurture (I.E. what typically happens in NATURE).
It's not a matter of Erastil hates women. It's gender roles that we see in the majority of animals, and our own backwater history. Little House on the Prarie would be worshipers of Erastil.
Of course not. It's the big words. You need to present the topic correctly!reading Lovecraft and Howard to a nine month old isn't as productive as you might think.
See, it's this kind of stuff that increases the chances I'll be sleeping on the couch tonight, despite the fact that I'm the nominal "Head of Our Household."
Well, you obviously chose to sleep on the couch. :P
IIRC, his writeup (also by SKR, I believe)
They're all by Sean K. He's the religion guy. And even though he looks like he likes standing in front of an Obelisk of Light and ranting against those GDInfidels (;-)), he does a good job. Or maybe because.
And whenever an AP has a big write-up of a deity (those write-ups are bigger than the Gods&Magic entries, which are bigger than the Campaign Setting entries in torn), it also has stats for the deity's herald (herals being special outsiders the deity sends when he/she/it wants to make something perfectly clear - the deities of Pathfinder don't take Avatars and walk the world as a rule.)
Oh come on, really now this is getting ridiculous.
You have been presenting this issue as if Erastil was central to the campaign. He's not.
You've been presenting this as if sexism was Erastil's "portfolio" & central to his faith. Its not.
You (or your players) are misrepresenting or misunderstanding the material to create a problem where none exists. If you continue to look for problems/offense where none exists, you'll find yourself jousting with windmills.
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As a DM, I'd hope that my players see the role playing potential for such a situation. I would even encourage a strong-willed female PC as a potential follower.I initially suggested several ideas similar to those you propose. Although the female players in my game are willing to deal with the occasional sexist NPC, they've no interest in participating in a game in which belittlement of women will be an ongoing routine; it takes a tedious and frustrating part of their real lives and makes it a tedious and frustrating part of their hobby. It'd be like having to routinely fill out tax forms in-game; how would that be fun? =)
They also couldn't justify their characters willfully following a god who promotes such nonsense; it's beyond their suspension of disbelief.
Thanks for the suggestions though. =)
You make the incorrect assumption that women getting belittled is a central aspect of the game.
Like the previouse posters have said, you're making a mountain out of nothing.
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Ambrus, you need to go back to the dictionary. Deferring to another does not equal subjugation.
My wife defers to me in matters of finance. Why? Because I'm the math nerd. She is not subjugated by me. She also defers to me in matters of the kitchen, because I'm the better cook. I defer to her when it comes to parenting, because reading Lovecraft and Howard to a nine month old isn't as productive as you might think. Plus, I was under the mistaken impression that five pairs of clothing for the infant would be enough. Turns out I was wrong, but it didn't matter because my wife was in charge of baby clothes.
At work, I defer to my boss. I am not subjugated by my boss. There are roles at my employer that exist for the success of the company.
Playing 3.5/Pathfinder, I defer to the DM, I am not subjugated by him.
You need to relax a bit (in my day it was called "chill out") and realize that sometimes a made-up fantasy world is just a made-up fantasy world.
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I think he would expect them to have a family if they could, take in orphans and such. He would not approve of their lifestyle but would still expect them to do their part in the community, even if they did not have children.
I wouldn't even oversimplify it in this manner. Most of Erastil's write up seems to indicate what he would wish under perfect circumstances. While he may not be happy that a worshiper isn't going to get married and have children, that doesn't mean that if that same worshiper grows lots of crops and animals and provides for the community, or if he defends his small community from outside threats, that Erastil wouldn't still love and favor that follow.
He'd just wish that he would have had a wife and children.
I like this. I don't see Erastil being inherently "anti-gay". He wants people to get married and have kids, and he is fairly old fashioned about it, but he is primarily a god of community and agriculture. The important thing to Erastil is that everyone does their part to support the community.
Hello OP
The well thought out and reasoned arguments of Mothman and others convinced me to participate and look for some solutions to your situation.
I can see you have kind of backed yourself into a corner with a blanket generalisation on behalf of other people.... I would say that it would be disingenuous for you to continue speak on their behalf and suggest that they participate in this discussion.
I am 100% sure with the great quality of the people that post here, that if somebody got overly snarky or rude they would be told to pull their heads in. So your players need not fear a flaming.
I agree with the Mothman and (it is not often I would say this)KaeYoss.
This is my take on Erastil - he is a god for nomadic and rural communities.
In the real world, traditionally the first line of defence (not just against other humans - predators such as wolves and lions) are men. It is their job to sacrifice themselves so that the family may continue.
The chances of survival for a community are greater if the women survive as you only need one man for a woman to conceive but you are not going to have a community if all your women are eaten by wolves or stolen by the tribe down the river.
Also with these communities women and men defer to each other on different matters, as the men are out scouting and hunting they know where the game is and where the predators are and where the hostile tribes are.
Women who traditionally are in charge of the gathering and the care and protection of the young know when the food is running low and it is time to move on. The males of the community defer to the women on this as it is essential for their survival.
Tribal communities are highly complex and the interaction and gender relations of gods such as Erastil would differ markedly for each community. I am sure that if Paizo and SKR had the spare pages to write it up the gods discription would reflect this.
As such SKR can only give us an outline and general feel for the god and it is up us to fill in the rest.
In Celtic societies they practiced voluntary (some times not) human sacrifice - this wasn’t seen as evil by the Celts it was for the good of all, A young man would volunteer to be the thrice killed king - He would live like a king for a year - then at the end of his time he would be mostly strangled partly drowned and then have his throat cut... This would ensure that the gods were appeased and the harvest was good.
The relevance of this is what we see as evil may not be so by other communities.
50 years ago women were expected to defer to men now it is different.
A very interesting topic would be the effects of easy to obtain magical contraception and how this would apply to gender relations in a magical medieval world.
In a rural community such as the westward expansion of the US it was the males of the community who were the "leaders" as navigation and defence fell to them, but internally you would find that the females determined the day to day running of the expedition knowing the food stocks, if people were ill, pregnant and so on.
It was essential for the community that women and children be protected as without them there would be no community. It is a biological fact and a Darwinian imperative that, the species most successfully able to maintain a breading population are the species that survive.
Erastil being a nature god will adhere to that imperative... as old fashioned as it may seem it insures the survival of the community.
If the arguments of SKR and others leave your players unconvinced:
The easiest step is to write out the defer word from the gods description.
The next easiest step is to swap the god.
From the most excellent Pathfinder Wiki LINK .
Abadar (pronounced AH-bah-dar)[1] is known to be a patient deity. Maintaining a strong neutral stance in his actions, he sets forth to further expand civilization and order in the world and among the peoples of Golarion.[2]
Mortal servants of Abadar work to forward the development of civilization in their communities, often serving as judges, lawyers, and clerks.
So you have a civilizing god that fulfils a similar roll except that instead of the old fashioned frontiersman/settler in a covered wagon god you have the merchant god looking to stake a claim and turn a buck.
Gozreh is less suitable but a little more PC - Gozreh is an ancient deity, thought to have existed for as long as the wind has blown and the waters swelled. His faithful are to be found in all places of nature, doing her will as they have for eons. He is counted among one of the original gods that fought against Rovagug in the defence of all creation.[3]
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One could respond back that Iomadae is also sexist. She only allows females to be priests, paladins, etc. Sexism goes both ways.
this is altoguether false.
there are enough examples of the contrary.Iomedae is the example of independant, strong willed woman thar Erastil fears, in our culture she would be perfect example of the Career Woman... in every sense... lets remind she has outlived her last 2 employers.
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Sure, anyone could just change the details they don't like. I'm just wondering why those details are there in the first place.
there are.. like 11 more gods, where at least 3 are feminist (Iomedae, Calistria, Lamashtu), and 2 quite independent (Sheylin and Desna)
so why would having 1 of 20 gods being conservative chauvinist would exclude women from roleplaying?
Gorum doesn't care the sex of his followers, as long as blood is splashed, Asmodeous will use whatever resourses comes at hand.
If they don't want to follow Erastil let them follow another God... maybe Gozreh or Desna.
Just to add to the general chaos of this thread:
In my vision of the setting, acceptance of homosexuality is actually a chaotic-v-lawful thing, not a good-v-evil thing.
I am very much in favor of complete equality for homosexual people, but for me it just "fits" to have lawful good and lawful neutral gods prohibit it, even though it is an act of discrimination.
BTW, did anyone else notice there is a gay Paladin of Abadar in Sandpoint?
(runs off cackling into the night)
That's not entirely Erastil's perspective. A very strong-willed man can "tame" a strong-willed woman... but who's to say that once she's "tamed" she's not going to continue adventuring, especially if her husband is also an adventurer? They'd be a true "power couple."
These couples don't have to totally reject social norms. President John Adams and his wife Abigail were very close friends and she was his confidant and advisor in a world where men had all the power and women wore seven layers of clothing. Yet Abigail's advice to John was essential in his political work in the early years in the United States.
But in a world where fierce monsters lurk beyond the borders of the farmstead, even a "traditional" woman can't be faulted for defending her life and that of her children, just as the she-wolf and she-bear are more dangerous than the lone male.
And if a poor, independent-minded female worshiper of Erastil went adventuring to acquire wealth for herself so she wouldn't be married off just to escape poverty, is that wrong? No. Is she wrong if she's looking to make the world safer for the children she wants to have some day? No. Is she wrong if she doesn't want to be married, but believes in family and the protection of children? No. Is she wrong if she wants to travel so she can find a more suitable husband, rather than the bumpkins in her home village? No.
Erastil isn't saying women are weak.
Erastil isn't saying women are inferior.He is saying that a woman's role is to be wife and mother... just as a man's role is to be husband and father. Yet he's not insisting that everyone get married at the start of puberty and start cranking out children just because they can.
I like this answer, sir, not least for pointing out that women can and have been brave and done great things even in more sexist times. I really do hate the attitude that "Well, these people didn't have Our Enlightened Attitudes, so obviously, all the men in this culture were monsters and all the women (or whoever) were spineless worms without a brain in their heads."
Heck, my father's mother was a very traditional Pennsylvania Dutch farmwife. She treated him as the boss (when he was around; since he was an itinerant entertainer/coal patch minstrel, he was gone a lot of the time). Provided you ignored her packing a pistol to deal with troublemakers, and once breaking her two older sons out of a foster home where they didn't want to be, that is.
And that's not even touching my mother's mother, who once beat up her two brothers-in-law bevause they showed up drunk at the front door and tried to force her to get them dinner.
Aherm. That rant/digression aside, my own take on what's been said is
that I'm thinking what Erastil is saying is that "When you've got a family, THEY are the most important thing in the world. Not you. Take care of them first and stop running all over the place like some hobo."
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I think the OP and his/her players need to read Sean's posts carefully.
If Erastil doesn't fit your player's needs, change it for the AP.
If the subject it too 'offensive' or you somehow can not twist the fluff in your favor....don't play the game. Somethings are gonna ruffle people's feathers at some point.
"You mean to tell me Half-Orcs are the product of rape?! Paizo/Wizards/etc. YOU HAVE GONE TOO FAR!"
that is totaly not the point
if a LG god has a dogma like this:
"Should a cleric of Erastil, either male or female, who advocates that a wife leave her abusive husband loose his divine powers because it conflicts with the god's tenet that women "should defer to and support their husbands"
That is a sure way to lose female players.
If that is Lawfull Good in Golarion, my female players will not want to play in that world. It is not about "we can change it" it is about no longer be willing to support a company who wrote this as LG
NOT my oppinion, but the way of thinking of some of my players
there is a point missig here in the equation that people forget
a husband is not only supposed to bring food back home... is supposed to protect his family and being an example to him...I can see a priest of Erastil taking that husband out on the wilds and giving him a few lesons of what of what his threatmen does to his wife and from that try to mold him into a good husband, he even will be nice enough to mend his bones back.
the fact that Erastil supports families, doesn't means he supports disfunctional ones... its about the bonding, so the cleric has as an obligation to help fix this issues... and I can see a cleric ofErastil (male or female) beign true to that fact.
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I'm surprised that the politics of the Kingmaker plotline haven't surfaced before now in discussion.
Brevoy, a country where the worse guys usurped power from the bad guys who had already seized it 'fair and square' back in the day, has decided they need a little more lebensraum to stretch their legs, and sent a bunch of basically chartered privateers to seize and occupy the land of a disorganized nearby country, whose central tenets, the River Freedoms, are all about the freedom to do what you want and a vehement refutation of slavery, making them ever-so-slightly a disorganized libertarian paradise, now under assault by monarchists whose throne was usurped in a night of long knives by a jacked-up merchant house.
It's all in good fun, but the chartered groups, and the Brevic authorities supporting them, are a sideways hop away from being the Soviet Union or Saddam-era Iraq, deciding to just saunter on over and conquer some neighboring territory because they can.
If this game were set in the modern world, where the dominant world religions are incredibly sexist, and almost universally forbid women as clergy, an even more extreme position than that of Erastil, the most staunchly conservative of Golarion's gods, the UN would barely notice the faith of Erastil's traditional gender-role garbage, because they'd be too busy leveling warcrimes charges and imposing sanctions and building up an alliance of nations to strike against Brevoy, calling it a sponsor of terrorism, an unlawful aggressor and characterizing the parties of chartered adventurers as mercenaries and ethnic cleansers, intent on pillaging defenseless surrounding nations and forcibly 'civilizing' their inhabitants during some grand occupation. :)
The female clergy already established to exist in Erastil's church, despite being entrenched in possibly the most patriarchally sexist of Golarion's churches, already have more of a role in the heirarchy of their faith than women do in the majority of churches in the real world. If anything, Golarion's churches are improbably egalitarian.
Golarion is vastly more progressive than Earth in gender-relations. Twenty co-dominant faiths, and eight of them are goddesses (and one of them, Gozreh, is some sort of tranny!). And there's a god of sadomasochism, a god of promiscuity, a god of drunken frat-boys, etc. And yet, truth remains stranger than fiction, because for every bit of cognitive dissonance one might get from a Golarion churches practices, the real world has it beat six ways from Sunday.
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50 years ago women were expected to defer to men now it is different.
50 years ago, nuthin,' I remember my mom's outrage at how long it took for the laws to be changed so that a woman could charge her husband with rape (the first US state outlawed spousal rape in '75, the 50th in '93, although only 17 states have the penalties for raping your spouse as severe as for raping a stranger.). The official legal position was that once she accepted that ring, she could no longer say no. This wasn't 50 years ago.
And there was controversy, with very important people arguing about how it would damage the sanctity of marriage if a man lost the right to rape his wife willy-nilly.
The high dudgeon that appears when questions about this are brought up about Muslim women's rights seem surprisingly uninformed coming from people whose Christian mothers and grandmothers didn't have that right.
Creative Director
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So, I'm a little late to this party, but here goes.
Golarion's deities are meant to be complex and challenging and in some ways "realistic." And that means that sometimes, the faiths of these deities will be presented in ways that can be... touchy, I guess, is the word.
Erastil's element of sexism is one such area. He's a lawful good deity, and the simple and safe route would have been to make him a super friendly and progressive kind of deity that everyone can like. But that's not a type of deity we're really interested in presenting for Golarion. By introducing an element of sexism into the religion, Sean created a VERY interesting bit of flavor—suddenly, this lawful-good faith isn't necessarily the most progressive or nicest faith. He has something that some folks don't mind, but others (which would include both Sean and myself) find pretty backwards-thinking and close-minded. This makes for some interesting roleplaying opportunities.
Now, taking a bigger view of things, I'd like to say that I'm pretty proud at how we've handled gender roles in Paizo products. As folks have mentioned above, we DO have a lot of strong female roles and characters. When we were designing our deities, I made a special point to have as balanced a split between male and female deities as possible—the same went for our iconic characters. So when we DO go and include something more close-minded in the game, like Erastil's "sexism" (which is more something that comes out of dusty traditionalism than active misogyny, I would say), it can both add a realistic (however unfortunate that may be) element to that character while not, when taken as a part of the whole of the work we've done on Golarion, representing the whole.
Anyway, there's no reason you can't have a female cleric of Erastil. As pointed out above, we have a female cleric of Erastil living in Tatzlford in "Blood for Blood." A female cleric of Erastil is certainly not a commonplace sight in the church, and it'd probably scandalize some of the more "bound by tradition" priests and worshipers of the faith, but those old-timers deserve to be scandalized! ;-)
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I agree with the Mothman and (it is not often I would say this)KaeYoss.
I know, right? ;-)
And I think The 8th Dwarf is getting at the crux of the matter – a reading of the rest of the article, on Erastil’s beliefs, the role of priests etc, fairly clearly implies that Erastil’s ‘women should stay in the home attitude’, while most likely misguided in modern Golarion (or Earth), is coming very much from a traditional, ‘survival of the community is paramount’ point of view, NOT a misogynistic one.
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I agree with the Mothman and (it is not often I would say this)KaeYoss.I know, right? ;-)
And I think The 8th Dwarf is getting at the crux of the matter – a reading of the rest of the article, on Erastil’s beliefs, the role of priests etc, fairly clearly implies that Erastil’s ‘women should stay in the home attitude’, while most likely misguided in modern Golarion (or Earth), is coming very much from a traditional, ‘survival of the community is paramount’ point of view, NOT a misogynistic one.
Correct. Erastil's faith is a bit too comfortable in their traditions and, in time, one might hope that they'd get a little bit more modern in their way of thinking, but they aren't purposefully trying to be evil or hateful about their methods. (although I'm sure that there's plenty of individual cases of priests being openly misogynistic—I would say that all of these priests would be lawful neutral and not lawful good or neutral good, though).
We DO have misogynistic deities in our campaign, though. Pretty much all the archdevils and Asmodeus fall into that category.
I'm surprised that the politics of the Kingmaker plotline haven't surfaced before now in discussion.
Kudos. Both an insightful and amusing analysis. As with most matters people tend to speak out about the issues they're closest to. For instance, we rarely if ever hear anyone complain about the near-genocidal racism directed towards goblins and kobolds. ;)
Several people have mentioned a priest of Erastil taking aside a wifebeater husband and explaining to him his role in protecting the family (and the "explanation" may include a bonk on the head with a cudgel). I agree with this assessment.
/sidetrek
It also reminds me of a bit from one of Joel Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame" books. In this series, a group of gamers are transported to a fairly grim fantasy world. They can't return home, and end up establishing a settlement in a large valley where they live with a bunch of freed slaves and other warriors who believe in their cause of freeing all the slaves/breaking the slaver's guild. The main character, Karl, a college student in the body of a mighty warrior, hears that one of his son's friends is being beaten by his father.
So Karl calls the man over to his house and gives him a little speech. In this speech he talks about how it's not right to beat your kids.
The man counters with "he's my son, I'll treat him how I want to."
Karl replies, "you gotta understand, where I come from, the term 'my son' doesn't mean the same thing as 'my house,' 'my wagon,' or even 'my horse.' So you've had a pretty easy life on your farm here in our lush little valley, enjoying that there's a large team of warriors protecting our borders from bandits. Well, starting now, you're going to be in training."
He then calls to Tenetty. "Remember how I was telling you about boot camp back on Earth? I want you to treat this guy like a boot. Take this guy outside and run him until he drops."
So in the Erastil faith, at what point does the man defer to his wife? Is that written down anywhere?
I wouldn't know, as Erastil is a FREAKIN' MADE UP GOD! It's FAKE!
Sheesh, this is a game. With lots of things that are made up and NOT REAL. Bringing your emotional-political-societal baggage into the game makes about as much sense as bringing a hedgehog to poker night.
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I know I showed up late at this party, but here are my thoughts on the matter (since you asked...)
In the 3.5 D&D book I liked Ehlonna a lot because she was one of the few female deities that wasn't a halfling or totally Goth, and I liked her "earth mother" vibe. So when I got the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, I was hoping to see a nature goddess like that.
I didn't. I saw Erastil instead, and it DID disappoint me. Not just because I was losing an "earth mother" for a crotchety old "father of the hunt", but because the female ranger type I liked to play didn't fit very well with that deity.
None of the other gods really fit very well either...but then I realized that Pathfinder isn't D&D, and there really isn't any equivalency. For example, there is no god or goddess at all like Calistria in D&D (playing that type of cleric doesn't appeal to me, but I'd accept that She is someone my PC would know about).
So if I want to play the independent woman ranger character I like, I need to justify her differently - she would be defying her Erastil worshipping community and would be more of an outsider figure, perhaps someone with a chip on her shoulder, becuase she is doing her best to defend her community but they do not appreciate her role. She'd be like Annie Oakley without the Hollywood ending (but there are few happy endings in a game with such a high body count anyway).
One thing that disturbs me about some of the posts is those who say it is a "non-issue." In terms of Kingmaker AP, it really is a non-issue, but in matters of PC choice, yes, it is an issue for me when selecting my character. One I can easily resolve myself, though.
Also, may Gozreh strike down those posters who go on and on about "natural gender roles"; secondary sex characteristics do not a gender make!
(Erastil can talk about it all He wants though; Gozreh will just put Her seashell to Her ear and listen to the waves)
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In the 3.5 D&D book I liked Ehlonna a lot because she was one of the few female deities that wasn't a halfling or totally Goth, and I liked her "earth mother" vibe. So when I got the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, I was hoping to see a nature goddess like that.
Greyhawk and the Realms both had an 'earth mother' (Beory / Chauntea) and a 'ranger goddess' with a vaguely Artemis-goddess-of-the-hunt vibe (Ehlonna / Mielikki). Even the Scarred Lands setting from White Wolf had the 'earth mother' Denev and the 'hunt goddess / ranger / archer' Tanil.
Golarion has stepped away from that real-world-derived formula and it's sky-fathers and male sun-gods, which is alternately new and fresh, and yet somewhat annoying for those of us who got comfortable with having Gaia and Artemis and Zeus and Apollo analogues in our fantasy worlds. (Althought it is refreshing for the Torm / Heironeous / Corean 'god of chivalry, valor and Paladins' in Golarion to be a chick.)
Then again, a few of the old stand-bys made it in. Shelyn is Sune / Aphrodite by another name, and Torag has Gorm / Hephaestus stamped on his shiny metal backside.
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Oh, I'm not really complaining that Golarion changed things up from the Greek pantheon model. I find it refreshing, now.
But I did want to point out that at first I was disappointed, and that, because of Erastil's beliefs, I'm probably not going to play a female worshipper of him. For an adventurous PC, it doesn't make much sense - you can't take your family along dungeon diving. I don't think I cross-play that well, so I'm probably not going to play a male worshipper of him either (which might be more justified in a "I'm clearing out this dungeon to protect my family" way).
Erastil: When are you going to settle down and pick a gender, Gozreh?
Gozreh: Chillax, bro. *Shaka sign*
I can see why Erastil's fits ok for KM as your not going very far and everything you do is for your community and the area you are in. But he is not really an adventuring god, which is ok as well.
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I agree with the Mothman and (it is not often I would say this)KaeYoss.I know, right? ;-)
And I think The 8th Dwarf is getting at the crux of the matter – a reading of the rest of the article, on Erastil’s beliefs, the role of priests etc, fairly clearly implies that Erastil’s ‘women should stay in the home attitude’, while most likely misguided in modern Golarion (or Earth), is coming very much from a traditional, ‘survival of the community is paramount’ point of view, NOT a misogynistic one.
That is what I wanted to say I do tend to ramble.... thank you for making it a lot clearer.
I honestly don’t think a community that worshiped Erastil would be too up in arms about a strong minded independent woman... Especially if she contributed to the community.
Imagine if you will two old women chatting at the market as Zeugma the ranger walked past
Old Lady 1 "That young Zeugma lass she is a bit funny in her ways..."
Old Lady 2 " But last winter she killed those wolves who were preying on the outlaying farms and guided that lost merchant caravan in, Erastil bless her..."
OL1 "Imagine what her children would be like if she settled down they would be strong just like her... Hey what’s his name Set's son he is a strong lad, he could be a good match...."
OL2 "I think though she has some wandering in her before she settles down and Erastil is guiding her to help our community and that’s all that we need ask."
That’s about as outraged as I can see an Erastil worshiping community get...
The other thing to think about is an adventuring party is a lot like a family and a priest of Erastil could take the mother/father roll in the party.