|
I was thinking about this the other day. Most Paladins I've seen are humans or half-elves. Would it be viable to build a halfling paladin that specialized in mounted combat, on a riding dog?
The -2 to STR would hurt, but the +2 CHR, +1 to all saves, and the small size might actually all work together for a pretty awesome character.
Thoughts?
I think it is part of the beauty of Pathfinder that combinations like this are more viable. More than anything else, I think smite working with ranged weapons makes this possible.
I was thinking about this the other day. Most Paladins I've seen are humans or half-elves. Would it be viable to build a halfling paladin that specialized in mounted combat, on a riding dog?
The -2 to STR would hurt, but the +2 CHR, +1 to all saves, and the small size might actually all work together for a pretty awesome character.
Thoughts?
You could definitely make it work, especially as a paladin archer since you still get full attacks when your mount moves. Even as a melee character it could work since smiting adds some nice combat bonuses that aren't related to strength.
|
|
I think it is part of the beauty of Pathfinder that combinations like this are more viable. More than anything else, I think smite working with ranged weapons makes this possible.
I agree. This is not a build I would have attempted in 3.0, or even 3.5, but in Pathfinder it seems to come together well.
I didn't even think of making him a ranged specialist. With a decent ride check, this little guy could cause some carnage with a shortbow!
What do you think the logical progression for feats should be?
This was one of my wifes favourite characters, she was just as good as any other player untill she was seduced by a cursed sword to the darkside LOL she then went on to kill the rest of the party in a stand up fight :)
So yeah just as good a choice as any.
|
I was thinking about this the other day. Most Paladins I've seen are humans or half-elves. Would it be viable to build a halfling paladin that specialized in mounted combat, on a riding dog?
The -2 to STR would hurt, but the +2 CHR, +1 to all saves, and the small size might actually all work together for a pretty awesome character.
Thoughts?
The -2 str really doesn't hurt all that much, esp since you make up for that 1-2 damage lost per swing with the +1 to hit and the +1 to ac. The speed loss for a pally is also minimal due to the fact that you are usually running around on your mount and faster than the rest of the party anyway. The mount being medium also means that it can get into places a normal horse otherwise could.
Overall it sounds cool, but I hate playing pallies so... I could never see myself playing one. At least not without some kind of alteration to the alignment req.
Viable? absolutely. Precisely optimal? Probably not? Will you do the absolute most damage as a melee paladin? No, but you could still do significant damage, you'd have a slightly better AC, and as others have said you could make a killer archer who gets to ride a medium sized mount (less trouble with narrow hallways).
I agree. This is not a build I would have attempted in 3.0, or even 3.5, but in Pathfinder it seems to come together well.
I didn't even think of making him a ranged specialist. With a decent ride check, this little guy could cause some carnage with a shortbow!
What do you think the logical progression for feats should be?
Don't worry about the Mounted Combat line if you go the archer route, just max out ride skill and keep your dog (and yourself) away from the enemies. Also, don't bother with a short bow, a longbow is much better in every way and as long as it's composite can be fired while mounted.
I'd go Point Blank Shot -> Precise Shot -> Rapid Shot -> Deadly Aim -> Many Shot -> Improved Precise Shot.
|
|
Viable? absolutely. Precisely optimal? Probably not? Will you do the absolute most damage as a melee paladin? No, but you could still do significant damage, you'd have a slightly better AC, and as others have said you could make a killer archer who gets to ride a medium sized mount (less trouble with narrow hallways).
Oh, I never thought it was optimal. I just like to think outside stereotypes, and I'm so tired of the "stalwart knight on a warhorse" paladin. I'd love to see a little guy who decided to answer the call. But the more I thought about it, the better it seemed to fit, game-wise.
|
Viable? absolutely. Precisely optimal? Probably not? Will you do the absolute most damage as a melee paladin? No, but you could still do significant damage, you'd have a slightly better AC, and as others have said you could make a killer archer who gets to ride a medium sized mount (less trouble with narrow hallways).Oh, I never thought it was optimal. I just like to think outside stereotypes, and I'm so tired of the "stalwart knight on a warhorse" paladin. I'd love to see a little guy who decided to answer the call. But the more I thought about it, the better it seemed to fit, game-wise.
Played much baldur's gate II, they have a halfling fighter (since she couldn't be a paladin in 2nd ed) who gained a bunch of paladin like supernatural abilities because she wanted to be paladin sooo badly.
Viable? absolutely. Precisely optimal? Probably not? Will you do the absolute most damage as a melee paladin? No, but you could still do significant damage, you'd have a slightly better AC, and as others have said you could make a killer archer who gets to ride a medium sized mount (less trouble with narrow hallways).Oh, I never thought it was optimal. I just like to think outside stereotypes, and I'm so tired of the "stalwart knight on a warhorse" paladin. I'd love to see a little guy who decided to answer the call. But the more I thought about it, the better it seemed to fit, game-wise.
I played halfling knight once. It was fun. Nothing like a squeeky voiced tiny halfling riding a dog calling out a challenge to a dragon.
|
|
I think I would end up with the ranged build, as the +2 DEX makes it a natural. I like the halfling build better than the gnome, I'm not sure why.
I think I would RP the LG as he is attempting to be the change he wants to see in the world. The school of thought that if the littlest races can stand up for what is right and good, then the larger races would naturally follow suit. Probably kind of naive, but eternally optimistic. Seems like a fun build.
I'm playing a halfling paladin (1 level bard to start) now, and it's been a lot of fun. There is a drop of 2 damage generally (1 from strength, 1 from weapon size), but it really is easily made up.
Feats are probably the hardest part of a Paladin, since only they and Barbarians don't get bonus feats. Personally, I skipped Precise Shot. Try to shoot out of melee creatures, but while smiting it hardly matters. More important is Deadly Aim, and Point Blank is still useful.
Go for it!
Small paladins (and cavaliers) have a lot of advantages over their larger counterparts, namely the size of their mount. A medium sized mount is a lot more maneuverable and can accompany you into dungeons where larger ones such as heavy warhorses can't. A gnome is the preferred choice if you want to use a lance, but a halfling if you want to use the bow.
You're absolutely going to have to go with the mount though, 15 ft movement speed is not going to cut it.
I'm playing a halfling paladin (1 level bard to start) now, and it's been a lot of fun. There is a drop of 2 damage generally (1 from strength, 1 from weapon size), but it really is easily made up.
Feats are probably the hardest part of a Paladin, since only they and Barbarians don't get bonus feats. Personally, I skipped Precise Shot. Try to shoot out of melee creatures, but while smiting it hardly matters. More important is Deadly Aim, and Point Blank is still useful.
Go for it!
You can definitely consider skipping Precise Shot. I just find that when you want to focus damage with other party members on a bad guy, if he's in melee that -4 is pretty crippling.
|
Yeah, no on skipping precise; you should be +10 to hit at 4th level (20 dex, 4 bab, 1 size), and you don't want to miss out on 4 of that. I'd go (in this order)
Point Blank
Rapid
Deadly Aim
Precise
Multishot
So by 9 you'll have all you truly need
For stats (20 points):
Str: 14 (10)
Int: 7 (-4)
Wis: 7 (-4)
Dex: 19 (13)
Con: 14 (5)
Chr: 18 (10)
At 2nd level, saves of +9 Ref, +9 Fort, +3 Will is pretty hot.
...you should be +10 to hit at 4th level (20 dex, 4 bab, 1 size)...
I imagine many characters won't have a 20 at 4th-level, more like a 16 or an 18.
|
Until he was recently killed by a Shaitan Boss, my Gnome Paladin worked great in the Legacy of Fire game.
Cha and Con boost really helped out, as he's built around AC and Melee damage.
I considered the Charging Gnome build (mounted combat, divine bond=pony/dog, Lance + Smite + Power Attack for supreme damage on one big hit), but with the rest of the party (Witch, Alchemist, Monk/Cleric) that was not really feasible.
Pros for Halfling Paladin: You will NOT fail saves. Divine Grace + Halfling Bonus is like 4 levels in Monk, assuming a 16 Cha.
You're small, (which I like), so your carry capacity is slightly higher than average, negating the Str penalty for being Small with Size bonus to Hit, and gaining that extra +1 Size bonus to AC.
Cons: Combat Maneuvers will most likely succeed...you WILL be the paladin/fighter as shown in the Paizo art...grabbed, eaten, probed with tentacles. Learn to love that.
Lower weapon damage. Not a HUGE deal, but worth noting...whacking someone for 1d4+1d6+20 damage seems a little odd, but hey, why not?
I'd say go for it, you may find you love small melee characters as much as I do!
and for whomever suggested Goblin Paladin upthread....+3 internets!
If you get an House-ruled Rapid Reload application to the Halfling Staff Sling (the text only allows it for crossbows) it has a nice spin.
I am looking at one with a possible Axe-beak Abadar paladin mount myself (to confirm with the DM too).
Who cares if it's optimal? Just roll with it
I would definitely consider the halfling sling staff, just for the sake of distinctiveness. Here's the 20 pt build - that won't leave you dumb as a post - I would use (after racial mods):
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16
Feat: Deadly Aim
Future feats, in this order: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Vital Strike, Improved Critical (sling staff)
You'll probably stick with light or medium (at most) armor, especially mithral versions of same, but get all the physical ability score boosts you can find.
...
Future feats, in this order: ..., Vital Strike, ...
Interesting option compared to Rapid Reload.
Do you think it should be handled as 2 weapons for magical enhancement at range and in melee (as a club)? i.e.: Compares to a dagger or a crossbow with a bayonnet?
...
Future feats, in this order: ..., Vital Strike, ...
Interesting option compared to Rapid Reload.
Do you think it should be handled as 2 weapons for magical enhancement at range and in melee (as a club)? i.e.: Compares to a dagger or a crossbow with a bayonnet?
I went with Vital Strike just because it is explictly legal, while applying Rapid Reload depends on GM kindness, and might not be suitable for all games (like Pathfinder Society ones, for instance). Plus, you already suggested it. If Rapid Reload doesn't apply, then Vital Strike is an absolute must.
I would allow the enchancement to apply to both uses of the weapon, much as a +1 dagger gets its bonus whether used in melee or thrown. It's the same weapon either way, and all uses of it are enhanced equally as far as I'm concerned.
If you can get Halfling Outrider Oked, your too cool for school. Pally + a level of beastmaster then outrider. You end up with a puppy that eats dragons.
Or a dragon that eats dragons; there's actually a 3.5 halfling paladin build that ends up riding a gold dragon special mount/animal companion combo (thanks to the ranger/paladin multiclass feat and some prestige classing).
... If Rapid Reload doesn't apply, then Vital Strike is an absolute must.
I fully agree, I hadn't thought of including Vital Strike myself.
I would allow the enchancement to apply to both uses of the weapon, much as a +1 dagger gets its bonus whether used in melee or thrown. It's the same weapon either way, and all uses of it are enhanced equally as far as I'm concerned.
That's what I felt like, and the Vital Strike option also makes a good option with the club-ing!
If you can get Halfling Outrider Oked, your too cool for school. Pally + a level of beastmaster then outrider. You end up with a puppy that eats dragons.Or a dragon that eats dragons; there's actually a 3.5 halfling paladin build that ends up riding a gold dragon special mount/animal companion combo (thanks to the ranger/paladin multiclass feat and some prestige classing).
Any chance of a link, Zurai?
Who cares if it's optimal? Just roll with it
+1
Player: "What sort of character should I make up? I want to make sure I can contribute, et cetera?"
Me: "Make up whatever you want. I'll adjust if necessary to get things to work."
Any chance of a link, Zurai?If you can get Halfling Outrider Oked, your too cool for school. Pally + a level of beastmaster then outrider. You end up with a puppy that eats dragons.Or a dragon that eats dragons; there's actually a 3.5 halfling paladin build that ends up riding a gold dragon special mount/animal companion combo (thanks to the ranger/paladin multiclass feat and some prestige classing).
HERE.
It turns out that if you take a Wyrmling Gold Dragon for your Draconic Mount, it ends up with the ability to command others of its type (!).
I wouldn't suggest using that build for an actual game because, frankly, it's pretty broken. You might be able to scavenge some nice tips from it, though.
Who cares if it's optimal? Just roll with it+1
Player: "What sort of character should I make up? I want to make sure I can contribute, et cetera?"
Me: "Make up whatever you want. I'll adjust if necessary to get things to work."
+2
And remember, Halflings are the strongest PC races in the game.
Even after the -2 Str and the 75% carrying capacity for being small, pound for pound Halflings outlift all the the other races.
With a 14 Str and average weight for race, a male halfling can lift almost 4 TIMES his own body weight over his head. An average female halfling is even STRONGER.
Show me another PC races that can lift that much with even a 16 Str? :)
I was thinking about this the other day. Most Paladins I've seen are humans or half-elves. Would it be viable to build a halfling paladin that specialized in mounted combat, on a riding dog?
The -2 to STR would hurt, but the +2 CHR, +1 to all saves, and the small size might actually all work together for a pretty awesome character.
Thoughts?
A ranged paladin could work well as a halfling. However an often overlooked ability for smaller race paladins is the mount option of Divine bond. While halfling paladins would do less damage due to their size (when not employing smite or spells) a riding dog or similar mount gives them some advantages few other classes get. Chief amoung those is speed. With a 40 foot speed on the mount only a barbarian in light armor or a 3rd+ level monk can meet or exceed that. You also get the extra attacks from the dog (not awesome till you take the right feats)
The great thing about the paladin class is it negates pretty much 2 of the major flaws for smaller races (damage and movement)
With a 14 Str and average weight for race, a male halfling can lift almost 4 TIMES his own body weight over his head.Sadly very wrong.
A 14 STR halfling can only lift 43lbs. In the case of the last halfling I played (Fat Tony) that would be about half of his weight (before gear).
-James
Sadly James, I am afraid it us you who are very wrong.
You are confusing a LIGHT LOAD (43 pounds) with the weight a character can lift over their head:
Lifting and Dragging
A character can lift as much as his or her maximum load over his or her head.
14 Str Halfling (weights below already reduced 25% for small size)
43.5 lbs. or less = Light load43.5–87 lbs. = Medium Load
87–131.25 lbs. = Heavy Load
The maximum weight of a HEAVY LOAD for a 14 Str Halfling is 131 and 1/4 pounds.
An average male halfling is roughly 35 pounds. 131.25 is nearly 4 times the weight of the halfling.
An average female halfling is roughly 30 pounds. 131.25 is over 4 times the weight of the halfling.
Although I will admit I would be very interested to see your character. An 86 pound (since you said that 43 pounds would be about half of his weight before gear) halfling would be like a bowling ball with legs and arms. Fully 2 and a half TIMES the weight of an average halfling you were a truly, completely massive example of the species.
Thanks for playing!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I had an obese halfling monk once (see his character portrait here). We called him Floating Mountain due to his sheer size and ready ability to jump over everyone's heads with ease.
Any chance of a link, Zurai?If you can get Halfling Outrider Oked, your too cool for school. Pally + a level of beastmaster then outrider. You end up with a puppy that eats dragons.Or a dragon that eats dragons; there's actually a 3.5 halfling paladin build that ends up riding a gold dragon special mount/animal companion combo (thanks to the ranger/paladin multiclass feat and some prestige classing).HERE.
It turns out that if you take a Wyrmling Gold Dragon for your Draconic Mount, it ends up with the ability to command others of its type (!).
I wouldn't suggest using that build for an actual game because, frankly, it's pretty broken. You might be able to scavenge some nice tips from it, though.
Cheers mate, yeh broken as hell, but without doing the animal companion cheese it's freakin orsm. Thanks for that.
I had an obese halfling monk once (see his character portrait here). We called him Floating Mountain due to his sheer size and ready ability to jump over everyone's heads with ease.correct. Thats only a 14 str. Min weight and a 16 str, a halfling female can lift over 6 times her body weight over head.
Where a half-ogre, with a 22 str can lift an impressive 520lbs over head, its only a little over 2 and a half times her body weight.
As far as the super mount thread goes, sure you can get a dragon, but i prefer the idea of a labrador that can chew a dragon to death. But sure from a power standpoint something that can fly like a griffon would be great for an archer type character.
OP if you go the supermount route, i suggest trying to balance mount power with personal power to keep cheese to a min but ensure strength.
Yeh, i'm having difficulty with that. If you take anything other than Paladin, ie, taking Halfling Outrider etc. it seems to hurt the Paladin abilities too much. Still working on it...
I fail to understand why it is necessary to overthink this choice