Me and my buddies had a difference of option the other night on how this game portrays 18 strength's "look" in this game.
Since str is what your attack is based off of, and one of my guys wanted to be the best at the sword he could be, he chose an 18 strength.
Some background to my house rules, is that you can roll the dice for abilities, I don't have a point system and don't feel it is hard at all to modify NPC's ability stat to co-exist with my PC's stats.
So after he puts his 18 in strength, and I asked him what he wanted to look like, he was more or less wanting to be around 6'2" and not really huge.
I told him that won't happen with a 18 strength. He is going to have to look really obvious, because an 18 is the best in the game.
So we got into discussions about why Str is the way to determine if you are the best (most plus) with attacks. I couldn't answer that, due to I myself don't agree with the system, but it is what it is.
He found he can choose weapon finesse and go off his dex, but he will be limited to a d6 weapon, and once again didn't like that.
How do you guys work out the Str aspect of your game? How would you get around having to be the biggest character in the game to be the most skilled? (taking out magical bonuses to weapons and armor)
I don't want to just say by some magical creation blah blah that he looks like a 14 but has a 18, because that would betray every NPC in the game and they would clearly know who has the best sword skil just by looking at them.
Or have I not really looked into this correctly? Does having the highest strength mean without other bonuses you are the most skilled with a weapon?
The rules don't require you to "look" any special way to go along with your stats. While it's reasonable for you to require that a STR 18 character is not ridiculously sickly-looking, I'd note that most of the world's top weightlifters are not tall or huge -- they're relatively short men who are nonetheless very well-muscled.
A person with almost super-human strength wouldn't have to be huge or obvious; he or she could just be in excellent physical condition and with great muscles (all of which could easily be concealed under normal clothing). And smaller people can be surprisingly strong.
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Me and my buddies had a difference of option the other night on how this game portrays 18 strength's "look" in this game.
Since str is what your attack is based off of, and one of my guys wanted to be the best at the sword he could be, he chose an 18 strength.
Some background to my house rules, is that you can roll the dice for abilities, I don't have a point system and don't feel it is hard at all to modify NPC's ability stat to co-exist with my PC's stats.
So after he puts his 18 in strength, and I asked him what he wanted to look like, he was more or less wanting to be around 6'2" and not really huge.
I told him that won't happen with a 18 strength. He is going to have to look really obvious, because an 18 is the best in the game.
So we got into discussions about why Str is the way to determine if you are the best (most plus) with attacks. I couldn't answer that, due to I myself don't agree with the system, but it is what it is.
He found he can choose weapon finesse and go off his dex, but he will be limited to a d6 weapon, and once again didn't like that.
How do you guys work out the Str aspect of your game? How would you get around having to be the biggest character in the game to be the most skilled? (taking out magical bonuses to weapons and armor)
I don't want to just say by some magical creation blah blah that he looks like a 14 but has a 18, because that would betray every NPC in the game and they would clearly know who has the best sword skil just by looking at them.
Or have I not really looked into this correctly? Does having the highest strength mean without other bonuses you are the most skilled with a weapon?
The stronger you are, the less effort it takes to swing a weapon of any given weight I guess... a 8 pound greatsword in the hands of Arnold Swz would be more menacing than it would be in the hands of Lil' Wayne.
If he is at 18 and he doesn't want to be "huge" then he is going to look like some kind of real freakshow. Muscle definition, pectoral muscles that look like crazy veined breasts, the whole 9 yards. Now if he wanted to be a bigger guy, you know the type. Barrel chested, sitting near the door at the tavern etc. that would be cool, and he would be cool with just looking like he is in really good shape with really thick arms.
That being said 6'2" is really quite tall in terms of human standards. Mainly due to the nutritional things and the reality that the average human male in real life is something like 5'10"
First off, dont take this the wrong way, but if you are making demands on the appearance of a character based on their stats you are micromanaging the PC's and need to consider the impact that may have on their fun...not saying you have to change your ways,but just consider how you would feel if your DM said you had to look exactly how he says or that you had to play the character how he decides.
But answer your question more directly, there are alot of different kinds of strength. There is heavy and bulky body builder muscle, smooth and lean swimmer style muscle and the more compact but not always ripped sort of muscle you see on football players and MMA fighters. In short you dont have to look like a WWE guy to bench 300 lbs. Many do, but not all.
High strength characters hit more often, true, but they do it by breaking through an opponent's defenses. High strength is not the same as skill. Think of it like this. A professional bodybuilder will have a high strength score. But is he trained in weapons? Most likely, no. But a professional soldier, on the other hand, is trained in unarmed combat, with knives, and a variety of modern weapons. Give them both a gun and let them shoot at a target. Who hits more often? Now let them fight and see who wins.
The bonus for high strength increases the odds of hitting a foe for hp damage, true enough, but think about these scenarios:
1) Build 2 identical fighters. Same stats in every way. Let them fight on a hill, with one man higher up the hill than the other. Who hits more often? The guy on the top of the hill. Why? He's getting a bonus to hit for height.
2) Same 2 fighters, but make one prone. Who hits more often?
3) Now take the 2nd fighter and switch his strength and dexterity scores. Let them fight it out. Who hits more often?
4) Same as #3, but give the high-dex fighter Weapon Finesse. Who hits more often?
Now here's one last scenario. Build a 1st-level barbarian. Make him human. Give him a 20 Strength (18 to start, +2 racial bonus). Now pit him against a 4th-level fighter, but give that fighter a 16 strength. Who hits more often?
Just because you hit more often, it doesn't mean you're more skilled than your competition. Proficiency, circumstances, fighting styles, and other factors contribute to successfully scoring hits in combat, among other things. To reflect skill with a sword, you may want bonuses to hit with a sword. And you may want bonuses to hit with everything. That would be a string of feats (e.g. Weapon Focus) plus BAB.
Also, you might want to consider alternative meanings to the idea of being skilled with a sword. A bladesinger, a duelist, and a straight fighter are all skilled with a sword in very different ways.
I think you might be confused about the meaning of 'hit.' 'Hit' in game terms means 'strike and injure or damage.' Skill can play a role here, but sheer power can as well. Characters with a high Strength have a greater chance to 'hit' because more muscular power makes it more likely that they will land a meaningful blow. Someone weak but agile might be able to poke through your defenses and hit you by slapping at your armor, but is not as likely to hurt you, 'hit' you, as someone who is extremely powerful. An unskilled giant or dragon has a good chance of 'hitting' you with a swipe, simply because there is so much strength behind the blow.
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Size is not necessarily indicative of strength. I was watching a documentary on little people (midgets for you un PC folks :P), and it had a guy on there benching almost 300 lbs...and this guy was less than 4 feet tall.
As a RL example...I have fallen into the habit of no longer working out, and have lost alot of the muscle strength I once had. Even in light of this, the only physical difference between me now and me a hell of alot stronger is that I have more pudge around the middle--my arms are the same size around, my pecs are roughly the same size, etc. Point is, to most people, I probably look stronger now than I did when I was actually stronger--I looked almost anorexic when I was at the height of my strength.
That being said, all of what I just said is pretty much worthless. And why is that, you may ask? This is a fantasy game. If he wants to be "wiry-strong" as opposed to "steroid-strong" he can...it's his character, not yours :D
you are now 2cp richer!
Consider this: If the character was an elf or a halfling, would he look massively muscular or would his strength be visible from slender and athletic frame?
In a world of magic and aberrations, strength can come from a supernatural density, an inner energy or uncanny focus, therefore not being obvious from the body appearance.
Note that "by the book" (i.e., the height and weight charts in the core rules) a 6'2" human weighs 200 lb. (base height of 58" + 16" to get to 74" total. Base weight of 120 + (16 x 5) = 200). Requiring him to be in this range is reasonable. Anything else is pretty much micromanaging IMHO.
A good place to look for visual cues for this kind of character look is comics. You have dozens of highly athletic, combat-trained men and women running around in very sleek outfits. Discarding the Supermen and Wonder Women (whose strengths are definitely superhuman in nature) and going with the martial artist types (Batman, Nightwing, Captain America), we can see that size is not the most defining trait, it is muscular definition. One could easily argue that Batman and Nightwing have 16-18 Strengths, as they are routinely shown throwing grown men around and inflicting significant damage with their bare hands. Yes, I know that many will attribute that to their high levels in 'monk' or 'martial hero' or whatever, but the art gives us a pretty good idea, visually, that they are very strong men.
Usually, size is an attribute given to those characters that are harder to hurt. There are countless examples of dialogue that backs this up, where the hero thinks to himself how hard it will be to take down this particular foe, because of his size.
It sounds like your player is going for a look like Nightwing's, rather than Luke Cage's. As it's his character, I'd just roll with it, and let the NPC' he fights be legitimately surprised at his strength. In turn, you can let him be surprised when the big guy he's trying to take down doesn't go easy. That high Con just lets him stay in the fight!
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A good place to look for visual cues for this kind of character look is comics. You have dozens of highly athletic, combat-trained men and women running around in very sleek outfits. Discarding the Supermen and Wonder Women (whose strengths are definitely superhuman in nature) and going with the martial artist types (Batman, Nightwing, Captain America), we can see that size is not the most defining trait, it is muscular definition. One could easily argue that Batman and Nightwing have 16-18 Strengths, as they are routinely shown throwing grown men around and inflicting significant damage with their bare hands. Yes, I know that many will attribute that to their high levels in 'monk' or 'martial hero' or whatever, but the art gives us a pretty good idea, visually, that they are very strong men.
Usually, size is an attribute given to those characters that are harder to hurt. There are countless examples of dialogue that backs this up, where the hero thinks to himself how hard it will be to take down this particular foe, because of his size.
I have to agree with this wholeheartedly.
A RL example in the NFL - often times the Strong Safeties are some of the strongest and/or hardest hitting players on the team; and they are of the Nightwing physique.
But they are not ape-like in appearance despite their strength. Their ability "to hit" easier comes from well defined muscles and learning techniques to bend properly, use the hips and attack/hit through the target enabling them to deliver bone-crunching hits. There's little fat on them - unlike say an Offensive Lineman - who are no doubt strong - but also beefy.
But take that same safety - he'd probably black out faster than say Shaquil O'Neal's size from the same hit. This backs up Necroluth's comment that the size allows for taking hits just as much or moreso meaning it's thier CON that gives them that size; like the big beefy guy in the movie Gladiator that took several arrows before going down. Yes he was strong, too, but his beefy size is what allowed him to endure all those arrows before succumbing to his injuries.
Finally - I would tend to agree to be cautious in micromanaging another's character to the point that you take away his/her control of their own PC resulting in loss of fun-factor.
Robert
You can look any way you want.
I was in SCA a while back. (And yes that means I went to Ren Fairs all dressed up.) There was this creepy 5'4" guy who could fight like a demon. I talked to him. He was into body hardening martial arts. He could literally crack walnuts with his hand. He did it to show off to me. He was stronger than any 6 foot something football player. I mean this guy looked like the stereotype for a gamer. Yet he was the strongest person I ever knew.
You shouldn't use such 'fixed' adjectives to describe high stats. If he is 6'2", then he already has enough of a descriptor to excuse an 18 strength. He can look however he wants to.
There are different ways to be strong. Certainly int terms of movies, tv, comic books, strength and size are not a direct relation. Think of movies in which jackie chan and jet lee consistantly show dramatically high strength. They arent exactly jacked looking are they? You dont even need signficant muscle definiton. Look at the guys on the world strongest man competition. They usually dont look like body builders, but you go ahead and try to hurl those player piano's through those second story windows.
I honestly dont think any stat should have to directly correspond to the characters appearance. Big men can be quick (and thus dexterous) little guys can be strong and tough, ugly people can be charismatic, and attractive people can have the charisma of a wooden board.
I would suggest that while the character would probably look really strong bare-chested, he could easily dress down. Compare Arnold in Conan to Arnold in Twins. If you're not showing off the muscles, they're not hard to hide.
Also, 18 isn't necessarily "the best". In 1st/2nd edition, you went from 18 to 18/01 and all the way up to 18/00. A longggg stretch of variation. In 3rd, humans can start at 18, but every 4th level bump can increase that a bit. In Pathfinder, 20 is the top starting point. So under most of those, an 18 doesn't = Mr. Universe, though it certainly means near the top 1% or so of strength. Like a strong soccer player perhaps if you were thinking lean.
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so do you require the 20 int wizard to have a massively swollen head to represent a big brain? Does the high con guy have to be a fat guy?
i understand that you dont want 9 strength muscle-bound hulks or 18 str 98 pound weaklings, but let a person decide what their character looks like
and 18 isnt the highest. you can start with 20, and then there are stat points. most bodybuilders have like a 22-24 str IMHO. and 18 is the guy on the high school sports team
Yeah honestly with an average of 9~11 and a standard deviation of 3, we aren't even really into the outliers with a strength of 18 (AKA NOT the strongest man in the world).
True. An 18 Str can lift 600 lb. max. The strongman competitions, from what I've seen, lift in the range of 1100-1200 lb. That would be a Str of 22-23.
Just to add to what people have already said, I look at the stats not as a measure of raw size/speed/etc. but rather as the effectiveness a character gets out of it. An 18 strength could be Conan, or it could be a little martial artist - one muscles through things, the other is able to focus their strength better and strike faster (and remember, power is force x velocity, so increasing the velocity increases the forces just as much as increasing the force behind it). It kinda breaks down when you get to the lifting and all, but that hardly ever comes up anyway.
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Actually, being strong and being muscular are two completely different things. There's a difference between LOOKING strong and BEING strong. That's why people take steroids. On most normal people's bodies, a very strong person is lean, and their muscles have a defined look, not necessarily big at all. People who go for the huge look usually have no choice but to take roids and creatine...which just makes the muscles look bigger, not stronger (water weight thanks to the creatine). They can both lift 450 lbs, but the roid user LOOKS like he could lift 450 lbs, while the other guy just looks extremely fit.
Look at Bruce Lee in "Enter the Dragon." Dude had stealth muscles. Here's this scrawny-looking shrimp, but then he flexes and his lats pop out so far he suddenly he looks like a flying squirrel. And IRL he used to beat body-builders in armwrestling competitions.
In the end for me and my group it comes down to we make some consideration for a character's ability scores in how they look, but in the end we decide what our character looks like not the ability scores.
We also ignore the hieght and weight tables except to get an ide of what the average for a given race is. The character is as tall or short as we want...even if outside the possible rolls on the table. We've had elves that were only 5 foot and dwarves that were just as tall in settings where elves average 6 foot and dwarves average 4 foot.
When it comes to the the Strength ability there are several considerations.
* Someone who works for sudden force will look very different from someone who works for sustained force.
* As has been pointed out, Bruce Lee is widely considered to be pound for pound one of the strongest men in recent history. The extent of his musculature devlopment was not readily apparent until it was in use.
* And body builders are often not nearly as strong as their appearance suggests. Also consider that what is seen in bodybuilding competition is partial the result of dehydration and strategic tanning (or self tanner) to highlight the definition.
* Peak (unaugmented) human ability score is not 20. It is 25. Once you factor in the +2 to any ability for humans and increases from levels. This actually closer to the benchmarks seen in True20 and Mutants and Masterminds.
-Weylin