OK, so I've been working on a Duelist build, and I am discovering something: using the Core Rulebook alone, the class really is designed in such a way that to get the most out of the class features, you pretty much HAVE to use a Rapier, or settle for really sucky damage. Here's why:
The class requires the feat Weapon Finesse. If you're going to take that feat, odds are you're going to build a character with a high dex, to make use of the feat. Otherwise, why TAKE the feat in the first place? OK, so the feat allows you to use DEX instead of STR for all light weapons, the whip, the rapier, and the spiked chain. That's a pretty etensive list, but the big three are the Rapier, the Whip, and the spiked chain -- and hell, if it wasn't for that nasty crit range, the rapier wouldn't even outshine the short sword. So ok, add the Short Sword and Kukri to the list of best weapons for finesse.
Here's where it gets tricky.
Most of the Duelist class features, with the exception of Canny Defense (Precise Strike, Parry, Riposte, Deflect Arrows, Crippling Critical)require a light or one handed piercing weapon to use. So let's look at the aforementioned "Best Finesse Weapons": Whip? Nope, sorry, slashing. Spiked Chain? Two-handed, try again. Kukri? Slashing. That leaves two weapons that don't totally suck, the short sword and the rapier, and of those two, one of them (short sword) still does suck somewhat. The ONLY weapon that does decent damage, can be used with finesse, AND can be used with all of the Duelist class features, is the rapier.
Look, I know the Duelist is based on the image of the swashbuckling hero of yore. And I'll admit, that's the image I had in mind when I first started creating the character. But the class features of the Duelist would also work well for other concepts -- like a gladiator, or pit fighter type character -- The Trident would make an awesome weapon for a duelist, if it weren't for the fact that in using it, you're giving up use of your Weapon Finesse.
I know PrC's are supposed to represent more narrowly defined roles than base classes. But a PrC that almost inevitably herds you into one choice of weapon? Only other I ever saw do that was Master of Chains in 3.
There's the part where it talks about "you lose this ability if you attack with a weapon in your off-hand."
I actually think the duelist class works great for a ronin style samurai. ie. Samurai Seven style. Except for a couple little features, but all of the class abilities match up great.
There's the part where it talks about "you lose this ability if you attack with a weapon in your off-hand."
I actually think the duelist class works great for a ronin style samurai. ie. Samurai Seven style. Except for a couple little features, but all of the class abilities match up great.
I had the exact same thought and so removed the Light Weapon requirement to use the class abilities and replaced the Weapon Finesse requirement with Combat Expertise. That PrC I call the Samurai Duelist, works very well IMO.
@studpuffin:
Canny Defense specifies a melee weapon. Parry, Riposte, and Deflect arrows don't specify melee weapons, but given the description of what they do, it would seem that melee weapons are what are intended by those features. Precise Strike and Crippling Critical are the only ones that could reasonably be argued to be applicable with a ranged weapon.
@Scipion agreed -- except for the aforementioned limitations on which weapons you can use.
Just tweak Weapon Finesse to another feat, and change "only piercing" to "only slashing" and ta-dah! You have a cool masterwork bastard sword wielding samurai street dueler.
Everyone knows Duelist is one of the weakest PrC anyways and it's not like you're handing out amazing mindblowing powers.
I had the exact same thought and so removed the Light Weapon requirement to use the class abilities and replaced the Weapon Finesse requirement with Combat Expertise. That PrC I call the Samurai Duelist, works very well IMO.There's the part where it talks about "you lose this ability if you attack with a weapon in your off-hand."
I actually think the duelist class works great for a ronin style samurai. ie. Samurai Seven style. Except for a couple little features, but all of the class abilities match up great.
I was thinking of a version that replaced Weapon Finesse with Weapon Focus, and replace the weapon requirements of the PrC with "with a weapon on which she has focused".
I was thinking of a version that replaced Weapon Finesse with Weapon Focus, and replace the weapon requirements of the PrC with "with a weapon on which she has focused".
Gotta make sure the abilities only work with one weapon though. Else the class can eek it's way into dual-wielding which could get pretty powerful.
I was thinking of a version that replaced Weapon Finesse with Weapon Focus, and replace the weapon requirements of the PrC with "with a weapon on which she has focused".I had the exact same thought and so removed the Light Weapon requirement to use the class abilities and replaced the Weapon Finesse requirement with Combat Expertise. That PrC I call the Samurai Duelist, works very well IMO.There's the part where it talks about "you lose this ability if you attack with a weapon in your off-hand."
I actually think the duelist class works great for a ronin style samurai. ie. Samurai Seven style. Except for a couple little features, but all of the class abilities match up great.
That would work very well for a general duelist class I think. I forgot the mention the part about piercing weapons only, I got rid of that too. I really like the gladiator duelist idea someone mentioned, would work very well for that.
I was thinking of a version that replaced Weapon Finesse with Weapon Focus, and replace the weapon requirements of the PrC with "with a weapon on which she has focused".Gotta make sure the abilities only work with one weapon though. Else the class can eek it's way into dual-wielding which could get pretty powerful.
That's easy -- just keep the part of the RAW forthe PrC that states the duelist can't use the features while carrying a shield or off-handed weapon. Heck, I might even keep the light or one-handed limitation. That way, it's still close to the original intent, but gives you a trade-off: You can pick any weapon, be it slashing, piercing, OR bludgeoning, but you gotta pick it when you take the focus feat, and from that point on you're committed. Seems balanced.
I had the exact same thought and so removed the Light Weapon requirement to use the class abilities and replaced the Weapon Finesse requirement with Combat Expertise. That PrC I call the Samurai Duelist, works very well IMO.
Actually they use light or one-handed piercing weapons. So if you changed piercing to slashing you could use a bastard sword, because it's a one-handed weapon. Though the unicorns idea of it only applying to the weapon you are focused in works well for everyone.
I had the exact same thought and so removed the Light Weapon requirement to use the class abilities and replaced the Weapon Finesse requirement with Combat Expertise. That PrC I call the Samurai Duelist, works very well IMO.Actually they use light or one-handed piercing weapons. So if you changed piercing to slashing you could use a bastard sword, because it's a one-handed weapon. Though the unicorns idea of it only applying to the weapon you are focused in works well for everyone.
Standard katana use is two handed, yes you can use it one handed, but the traditional proper method (thumbs over the top) is a two handed approach. Most samurai duels they are using a two handed style and so I prefer that method.
The other route would be to expand the WF feat to include other one-handed piercing weapons, or maybe just Masterwork versions of them. The pick and the heavy spiked shield, maybe not so much. But the trident? Why not?
But that addresses my OP, not the discussion of Samurai weapons, whuch I do find interesting.
I had the exact same thought and so removed the Light Weapon requirement to use the class abilities and replaced the Weapon Finesse requirement with Combat Expertise. That PrC I call the Samurai Duelist, works very well IMO.Actually they use light or one-handed piercing weapons. So if you changed piercing to slashing you could use a bastard sword, because it's a one-handed weapon. Though the unicorns idea of it only applying to the weapon you are focused in works well for everyone.
Also, it fits in with the whole idea of a warrior being at one with his weapon.
In the Qadira Companion, Paizo published a Feat (I forget the name)
which allows the holy of holy´s DEX to Damage when using a Scimitar with nothing in the off-hand,
and also allows the Scimitar to count as Piercing when it is convenient (i.e. Duelist class features)
...So I think the thread title should be changed to:
Duelists and Weapon Finesse: for Qadiran Scimitar Fighters only... ;-)
In the Qadira Companion, Paizo published a Feat (I forget the name)
which allows the holy of holy´s DEX to Damage when using a Scimitar with nothing in the off-hand,
and also allows the Scimitar to count as Piercing when it is convenient (i.e. Duelist class features)...So I think the thread title should be changed to:
Duelists and Weapon Finesse: for Qadiran Scimitar Fighters only... ;-)
You'll note that in the first paragraph, I specified "using the Core Rulebook alone". As much as I love Paizo's products, I can't afford to go buying a nnew companion or supplement every time I want to create a new character.
Standard katana use is two handed, yes you can use it one handed, but the traditional proper method (thumbs over the top) is a two handed approach. Most samurai duels they are using a two handed style and so I prefer that method.
I totally agree. That's why we have our little friend "loop-hole." A bastard sword is classified as a one-handed weapon. Even though in this situation you would be wielding it in two-hands. It's still technically a one-handed weapon.
Rather then making it a two-handed weapon which you can wield in one hand if you have the feat, it is a one-handed weapon which you must wield in two-hands unless you have the feat.
I digress, digging into the rules when we are already gutting a class is superfluous.
I sympathise. Back in 3.0 I thought it would be awesome to make a samurai/duelist. Then I realised that all the Master Samurai powers required a slashing weapon, and all the Duelist powers required a piercing weapon. I was quite saddened.
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You'll note that in the first paragraph, I specified "using the Core Rulebook alone". As much as I love Paizo's products, I can't afford to go buying a nnew companion or supplement every time I want to create a new character.In the Qadira Companion, Paizo published a Feat (I forget the name)
which allows the holy of holy´s DEX to Damage when using a Scimitar with nothing in the off-hand,
and also allows the Scimitar to count as Piercing when it is convenient (i.e. Duelist class features)...So I think the thread title should be changed to:
Duelists and Weapon Finesse: for Qadiran Scimitar Fighters only... ;-)
Then check out the Archives. All the mechanics from Paizo's books are listed, allowing you to find something you want your character to have, know what book it can be found in, and then go out and buy that one book if you choose. Less guessing that way and hoping a book might have something you can use. :)
The scimitar-related feat mentioned above is called Dervish Dance.
I digress, digging into the rules when we are already gutting a class is superfluous.
Totally agree, but I enjoy the subject hehe. :) Also I think the class is too narrow to start with, as the OP states, it pretty much narrows you to a very short list of weapon choices but has the flair that could fit with many iconic weapon styles.
You'll note that in the first paragraph, I specified "using the Core Rulebook alone". As much as I love Paizo's products, I can't afford to go buying a nnew companion or supplement every time I want to create a new character.Then check out the Archives. All the mechanics from Paizo's books are listed, allowing you to find something you want your character to have, know what book it can be found in, and then go out and buy that one book if you choose. Less guessing that way and hoping a book might have something you can use. :)
Still requires buying the book. I didn't say I can't risk buying the wrong book, I said I can't afford to go buy a new book every time. Hell, there are months where I can't afford a new book period.
But my point remains, the Duelist, while an awesome class, really does constrict your choice of weapons. With the core rulebook alone, you're limited to either the rapier, or sub-optimal choices. The only other PrC so constricted in weapon choice is the Arcane Archer, and, well, the title of the class pretty much tells you what you're getting there.
You'll note that in the first paragraph, I specified "using the Core Rulebook alone". As much as I love Paizo's products, I can't afford to go buying a nnew companion or supplement every time I want to create a new character.Then check out the Archives. All the mechanics from Paizo's books are listed, allowing you to find something you want your character to have, know what book it can be found in, and then go out and buy that one book if you choose. Less guessing that way and hoping a book might have something you can use. :)
Still requires buying the book. I didn't say I can't risk buying the wrong book, I said I can't afford to go buy a new book every time. Hell, there are months where I can't afford a new book period.
But my point remains, the Duelist, while an awesome class, really does constrict your choice of weapons. With the core rulebook alone, you're limited to either the rapier, or sub-optimal choices. The only other PrC so constricted in weapon choice is the Arcane Archer, and, well, the title of the class pretty much tells you what you're getting there.
Also, checked the archives you mentioned. Between that feat and a couple of weapons, the archives have options that expand the list of finesses weapons by three, and only that feat would be useful for a duelist -- so ok, now the list of weapons is up to 2 that do not suck, and one of those weapons requires spending yet another feat, a feat which also requires 2 levels of PErform (dance), and is VERY concept- specific. Sorry if I'm underwhelmed by the panorama of options that opens up to my character.
The Duellist is a specialised type of martial character. He's not supposed to be the general weapon master that the Fighter is. He's a swashbuckler, a Musketeer, and that motif of fighting is centered around a fairly narrow class of weapons.
But my point remains, the Duelist, while an awesome class, really does constrict your choice of weapons. With the core rulebook alone, you're limited to either the rapier, or sub-optimal choices. The only other PrC so constricted in weapon choice is the Arcane Archer, and, well, the title of the class pretty much tells you what you're getting there.
Not just a narroew class of weapons, *A* single weapon -- the rapier. I could grant the argument that the duelist should be about swords -- the description does mention elegant swordplay -- but what about other one-handed swords, many of which are associated with swashbuckling heros -- the pirate's cutlass, the fencer's Saber, Robin Hood's longsword? With the combination of the requirement of the Feat Weapon Finesse, and the added limitations within the class itself, all of these options are out the window, and you're left with either the rapier (or the scimitar if you take Dervish Dance).
Unarmed duelist, come on! For monks who love to fight in bars! Jackie Chan totally has acrobatic charge!
The Duelist features require havign a piercing weapon in hand. I've never played a monk, are they allowed to use spiked gauntlets and still be considered unarmed? If not, the duelist wouldn't work for them.
dervish dance doesn't even require you to be quadiran. and it can be easily adapted to a differen weapon. want it to work with a katana instead? swap the perform (dance) ranks for sleight of hand ranks, swap every reference to scimitars for references to katana and call it "master's stroke." keep it the same otherwise. you can do the same with acrobatics and a rapier and call it "swashbuckler's grace"
Unarmed duelist, come on! For monks who love to fight in bars! Jackie Chan totally has acrobatic charge!The Duelist features require havign a piercing weapon in hand. I've never played a monk, are they allowed to use spiked gauntlets and still be considered unarmed? If not, the duelist wouldn't work for them.
No, gauntlets count as weapons. There's a few ways that allow different types of damage for unarmed strikes. But it's 3.5.
The best two are feats. Hamatulatsu and Versatile unarmed strike.Picture your monk puncturing his ennemies with his index.
No, gauntlets count as weapons.
That's what I figured. Which is why I'm not playing a monk, and the suggestion by someone of a monk/duelist falls flat.
I'm just iving up and going with the rapier. I've lodged my protests, I'm moving on.
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I would just like to point out that I was suggesting an option that COULD be possible if the class weren't so limited. Dueling is nice, but not all duels are fought with a rapier. Cutlasses, sabres, katanas, fists, whips, chains... Stopping there. They're all possible, and changing something minor that adds more possible flavor just keeps me from having to make another prestige class with the exact same abilities. Legwork and such.The class is SUPPOSED to be limited. The idea of a Prestige class is to specialise on an aspect at a price.. usually in giving up something in trade. A Duellist is a fancy shmancy finesse fighter that's the schtick of the class as much as casting spells is to a mage.
It really sounds like to me the way you should be going is straight fighter and build what you want with the feats. A person who uses the heavy weapons you want to use looks rather silly in light armor. And stretching the Finesse feat to cover them is just... wrong.
I think an elven curve blade duelist would fit the PRC concept well.
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Here is a rough first cut of duelist feats for customizing your duelist:
Buckler Style
Requirements: Duelist level 3rd, proficiency with buckler
Benefit: The duelist may utilize her canny defense, precise strike, enhanced mobility, and grace class abilities while wielding a buckler in her off hand.
Sabre Style
Requirements: Duelist level 3rd, Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Benefit: The duelist may utilize her canny defense, precise strike, parry, combat reflexes, deflect arrows and crippling critical class abilities while wielding a scimitar.
Main Gauche Style
Requirements: Duelist level 5th, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (dagger)
Benefit: The duelist may utilize her canny defense and precise strike class abilities while wielding a dagger in her off hand. All other bonuses and penalties for fighting with two weapons otherwise apply.
Case of Rapiers Style
Requirements: Duelist level 7th, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (rapier)
Benefit: The duelist may utilize her canny defense and precise strike class abilities while wielding a rapier in each hand. All other bonuses and penalties for fighting with two weapons otherwise apply.
GAH!
No, you want effective?
Pump dex, get Dervish dance. Scimitars are now one handed piercing weapons, and you add your dex mod to hit AND damage. (It's a feat from the Qadira book).
I think that makes scimitar the best "game mechanics" option, but that's not what its all about.
Well, the conversation that you are trying to join ended five years ago -- long before things like Swashbucklers and Slashing Grace were options.