Altering the Baddies for longer fights?

[Kilbourne]

We're a group of 6 PC's in our first Pathfinder game ever, and over the course of 8 or so sessions, killed a lot of things. However, we seem to do it very very quickly. The problem we're facing is that we are either winning handily in 3 or less rounds, or we risk a TPK at round 1 and go into a full retreat. Is this normal? My GM is asking us for ideas as players of what we would like to see change, so I'm asking for your advice as well.

We brainstormed that lowering damages and saves on enemies, but doubling (or just upping in general) the HP would make for longer, more varied battles, but I have no idea what balance issues this would cause.

What advice do you have for us?

We are all now at level 5.
Witch (first rpg, fast learner)
Monk (experienced)
Wizard (first rpg)
Druid (first rpg still can't find her BAB on her sheets)
Summoner (experienced)
and a Bard/Barbarian gestalt (experienced)

The veterans sit next to the learners, so we're ok in terms of tactics, but I thought more information would be better.

[Ice Titan]

Three rounds is about right for most encounters. There should be five to six encounters a day, by the way, for the CR system to work. Keep that in mind.

More enemies. Not single enemies. One boss and four flunkies is a good idea for a boss battle, while four flunkies is a good road bump. Encounters should never be the same thing twice.

Most fights should be +1 to +2 CR. CR breaks down with experienced players, so having some keeps me on the line here.

That's all I got.

[Pooh]

I'm a new gm and was wondering about the same thing. Short sharp fights are nice but its good to have some more prolonged encounters. Here's how my group's first 3 encounters went.

Encounter 1 5 PCs & new minor NPCs defend a supply wagon against 16 goblins & 1 leader. Result - most of the goblins are dead in 3 or 4 rounds and the rest are running.

Encounter 2 the 5 PCs encounter some human bandits with a captive and goblins + 1 hobgoblin in a mutual suprise. More goblins enter the combat over the course of 3 rounds keeping the PCs occupied while in rounds 3 to 6 more bandits arrive with their leader arriving on round 6. This was gruelling battle for the party. The goblins were a nuisance but couldn't be just ignored but the real danger was the human bandits. The party was nearing exhausion by the time the leader showed up. I think this fight went on for 10 or 12 rounds but it was a very saisfying win for the party. I wouldn't do this often but all the player's remember this as an epic battle, especially since the captive was a gnome bard who has sung the tale to any who will listen.

Encounter 3 was a night ambush by goblins. The party ambushed the goblin sentries but when they pursued they were ambushed themsleves. This turned into a running fight and since it happened the same day as encounter 2 all the magic users were getting tapped out. The party wasn't in too much danger but remember this one as a tougher fight than the 1st even though there were fewer goblins.

So 2 ways to extend the fight: feed more monsters in over a number of rounds and have a running fight were the party has to pursue (or is pursued). It does have the virtue of making encounters more varied.

Pooh

[meatrace]

This is somewhat of a particular interest to me. Sometimes I have to alter monsters or find ones that work well. Most combats I run last 5-10 rounds. Like others have said, multiple lower level enemies. Give them a strategic position and let them think strategically. Never just meet on an open featureless plain. It's all about choosing monsters, or making them EARN their CR.

DR is your friend. Even skeletons can be a tough challenge if no one is using bludgeoning weapons. Half a dozen skeletons is only like CR 2. A good spider swarm is also very solid. Half damage from anything that targets single enemies or isn't bludgeoning, a very decent AC, and str poison.

Summoned creatures can also be a good challenge. An invisible caster (or one just hiding in the next room) that sends summoned creatures every round can harry a party. Remember that they don't get XP for the summoned creatures.

Kind of a classic encounter, at least from my point of view, is one big beater (ogre maybe) a few small creatures with crossbows taking potshots (goblins or kobolds), and a caster in the back trying to control everything (ray of enfeeblement, etc). The ogre controls those trying to sneak by to get to the caster, and the crossbowmen are almost constant minimal damage. With three distinct "tiers" of enemies the party will have to think strategically to decide who to go for first.

Anything that can take one party member out, like a charm, swings the whole fight and makes it challenging for everyone. It looks like everyone has a good will save in your group, but something like a Gibbering Mouther (CR 5) will make everyone save every round or be confused, potentially turning on one another.

Two other quick points. Target their bad saves, and wear them down. Fireball is a good spell against this group. Even one will likely wear down the party. Use the environment to your advantage, and have an unexpected cold snap force saves or take nonlethal damage. Traps with poison darts that do str or dex damage will make them easier targets to grapplers. Don't let them get a good night's sleep without working for it.

[Kilbourne]

Thanks for the advice, guys! I'll send this info on to my GM and see what he thinks.

[Skester]

Kilbourne wrote:

We're a group of 6 PC's in our first Pathfinder game ever, and over the course of 8 or so sessions, killed a lot of things. However, we seem to do it very very quickly. The problem we're facing is that we are either winning handily in 3 or less rounds, or we risk a TPK at round 1 and go into a full retreat.

Going into my current campaign, the PCs expressed concern over this. They wanted longer battles on average. To to to accomidate this I used the HP rules from the Beta where you add your Con to your Hit Points. I did this for both the PCs and the Monsters. In addition I gave standard monsters more HP per HD. 8 for d10, 6 for d8s, 4 for d6s. And in addition, if it's supposed to be the big oooh, ahhh creature that does take a long time to kill, I give a bonus 1 HD for Large critters, 2 HD for Huge, etc.

I also am having the PCs fight a lot of creatures well below their CR. So instead of a battle against one CR 5, I have a bunch of CR 2 creatures, with even more positioned to come help their buddies. The DM also has to make sure the creatures can hit you, but not do too much damage, but just enough to make it interesting.

And never underestimate how a bunch of little simple battles can wear a party down and make it more fun for a big battle. You don't want critters that can hit the party too hard either. I made the mistake last module and had the main opponents be ogres. The party could take them down pretty quickly, but they just hit too hard, making the adventure day too short. The current creatures I am using are actually very similar to Ogres in AC and Hit Points, but do slightly less damage (about half) and hit slightly less (but not too much less).

Skester

[Simon Legrande]

Keep in mind, if you're playing the Pathfinder APs they are geared to a party of 4. Having extra PCs in the party will diminish the challenge. If it's one you (or someone in your group) created, the examples meatrace gave are good ones.

[Sothmektri]

I find max hps for the bad guys helps with that a fair bit, too.

[Beorn the Bear]

As a GM I often change the enemies mid fight to adjust what is happening. I justify this by telling the players the enemies aren't guarenteed to be as presented in the book, they may be a variation of the same creature. so sometimes DR goes up, sometimes down, sometimes hp goes up, sometimes down. since the players have no idea what the true stats are, they are none the wiser.

If your DM doesn't feel comfortable with that, then my recommendation is field altering effects. temporary petrification, or sleep, or stunning, even tripping and grappling... anything that changes the dynamics of the fight and doesn't make it slash 1 slash 2, hp down, retaliate, repeat.

[Kilbourne]

So mainly more and more varied opponents in a single encounter, even with a lower CR, and then a higher (and GM controlled) HP and lowered damage on the Big Bad Last Encounter. Is this about right?

Also, thanks again for everyone's advice.