So, I've going to be getting involved in a game real soon that I'm very excited about: Kingmaker. Without any story spoilers, I'm looking for some help tweaking my character a little bit, making sure I'm not basing any ideas that will be pretty much useless in it.
It's a 20-pt buy, we're starting from the beginning, and it's core only; the DM seems really laid-back, though, so I think he'd be cool with other Paizo stuff, as long as I don't go overboard. No 3.5, though, to my knowledge.
There are two unknown characters thus far. The third player is going to be a rogue, and my guess is eventually assassin, because the DM says he wants to be the Royal Assassin at the kingdom building portion of the game. I, for my part, have decided to go the route of an elven wizard, and of course, the Magister (though I have decided I will insist on all calling him "Grand Vizier", on account of being LN leaning towards evil...NEVER trust the Grand Vizier, to my fellow Terry Pratchett fans). There's a possible fifth player, who would be a half-elf archer ranger if she joined.
The character concept I'm going for is an individual obsessed with knowledge. He wants to know -everything-, and is an arrogant, haughty jerk, pretty much. Thus I'm taking Divination specialty (not to mention the whole "I CAN NEVER BE SURPRISED" thing that lets me effectively ignore perception) and eventually going for Loremaster, because divination's specialty powers don't get much better after 8th level (at that point I'm going to have almost a +15 to initiative with dex, trait, and Improved Initiative so I doubt it'll make a huge difference). Besides, if a Loremaster isn't a big know-it-all, what is? He's also a moderate coward, though he will claim it's because he's smart enough to be cautious; it's truly because he's physically weak and he knows it.
This is what I have so far:
Str-7
Dex-16 (14 +2racial)
Con-10 (12 -2racial)
Int-20 (18 +2racial)
Wis-10
Cha-10
Traits: Reactionary & Dangerously Curious
1stLevel-Wizard, Feats: Scribe Scroll, Improved Initiative
I plan on taking Improved Familiar and upgrading along the way, eventually grabbing an Imp Consular familiar, which is why the Dangerously Curious and no-dumping of Charisma...the ol "hand the familiar a wand" trick.
So, should I use metamagics to get into Loremaster, or Item Creation feats? Given that I will have an Improved Familiar, I'm leaning towards Item Creation; if someone can tell me whether or not magic items are readily available in Kingmaker, that may seal the deal for me. I almost never use metamagics with a wizard, as I prefer them with a versatile sorcerer, but if magic items are everywhere in Kingmaker, I might actually go that route.
Also, what Spell Secrets do you recommend? I was thinking of going for bonus feat first, then bonus toughness, then the saving throw secrets. To me, it would be like getting an extra bonus feat every other level, like getting Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes in a row.
I'm open for any suggestions. Thanks :)
My suggetion if you want the Big Frickin Know-it-All Play a Bard. Plus you can play a Spy master that hides in plane sight.
I did consider it, but aside from social graces, bards just don't cut it like wizards. Maybe if we didn't have a rogue and needed a skill-monkey, but that base is going to be covered by him, and possibly the ranger.
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A good argument for bard is the extra skill points. Also, you don't *need* good cha to play a good bard.
Lowering int to 16+2 would give enough extra points to even out str and get a 13 in cha, which is plenty to play a ranged build bard.
Then you'd have 6+4+1(favored class) skill points plus a class bonus to knowledge. If you stuck with 20 int wizard you'd get 2+5+1 skill points (8) which isn't enough to cover all knowledges. The bard could at least cover 1 skill outside of knowledge (likely perform, with versatile performance to give it usefulness in other areas). The bard can also put half-level ranks into knowledge and end up on the same footing as a full-ranking wizard, which you can't pull off anyway.
So: Half-rank knowledges wizard with 3 other skills
OR Half-rank knowledges bard (with level bonus, acts like full rank) with 5 other skills, complete with ability to take 10 on knowledges or (eventually) take 20 X/day?
At level 10, without skill focus or items (which will be equal for both builds) you have:
Bard: +17 (+4 int, +5 ranks, +3 class, +5 class feature), can take 10 for 27, can take 20 1/day for 37 (higher than the wizard can get at all)
Wizard: +13 (+5 int, +5 ranks, +3 class), cannot take 10
Then again, if you're going with a pure-caster concept, sticking with wizard definitely makes sense. It's about priorities, though. Either one can do the item creation feats to get into lore master, though a bard is kind-of a lore master by themselves (in fact, I think they get a class feature by that name).
You can just roleplay them as a bard that studies magic for knowledge's sake rather than power's sake.
Lots of good arguments for the bard, actually...
I should be more specific. I want to be able to kill things. That's ME. My character wants to know everything. That's my RP background stuff, so I'm not throwing down a pure-optimized battle-control machine. Mainly, the reason I'm up for maxing out knowledge is so that when I accidentally metagame and hit the troll with a fireball the first time I see it, I can roll a knowledge to justify my actions.
I will admit, the idea of playing a bard, having a nice charisma and literally becoming king of the region appeals to me. If we don't have the fifth character, I could try and talk the DM into leadership. Then I could have a sniveling lackey, and a bunch of minions groveling at my feet...can you say halfling with a Napoleon complex?
Now you've got me confused with which route to go. The inner number cruncher in me laughs at the concept of playing a bard, but the "let's play something fun and innovative" guy in me says to toss the wizard idea and go for the jack-of-all-trades, know-it-all, useful-out-of-combat but challenged-in-combat bard. Yes, I know Treantmonk's guide shows bard to be useful, but...I don't want to be an archer :-P
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Lots of good arguments for the bard, actually...
I should be more specific. I want to be able to kill things. That's ME. My character wants to know everything. That's my RP background stuff, so I'm not throwing down a pure-optimized battle-control machine. Mainly, the reason I'm up for maxing out knowledge is so that when I accidentally metagame and hit the troll with a fireball the first time I see it, I can roll a knowledge to justify my actions.
I will admit, the idea of playing a bard, having a nice charisma and literally becoming king of the region appeals to me. If we don't have the fifth character, I could try and talk the DM into leadership. Then I could have a sniveling lackey, and a bunch of minions groveling at my feet...can you say halfling with a Napoleon complex?
Now you've got me confused with which route to go. The inner number cruncher in me laughs at the concept of playing a bard, but the "let's play something fun and innovative" guy in me says to toss the wizard idea and go for the jack-of-all-trades, know-it-all, useful-out-of-combat but challenged-in-combat bard. Yes, I know Treantmonk's guide shows bard to be useful, but...I don't want to be an archer :-P
Get a cohort at level 7 who IS useful in combat and only really there, and just spend your time eating grapes and saying "go kill that thing, but make sure you use fire"
Get a cohort at level 7 who IS useful in combat and only really there, and just spend your time eating grapes and saying "go kill that thing, but make sure you use fire"
So you're basically saying I should play Hedonism Bot. Admittedly an awesome concept. (YAY for Futurama back on the air tonight!)
I love the bard, but if you want to play it like a wizard, well... just play a wizard. A bard can use class skills to "fake" knowledge, but a wizard just has that big ole' brain, and doesn't need to fake it.
"and is an arrogant, haughty jerk, pretty much."
I'm going to agree with what pachristian said. Just because you show up with this character, doesn't mean that the rest of the group will want to deal with a jerk for 20 levels. A jerk can be an interesting character in literature, but unless there is some rapid personal growth, your just going to annoy the other players (not characters - players). If anyone showed up to the table with a jerk, spoiled brat, preachy loudmouth, slobbering drunk, or any other type I avoid like the plague in real life, I would ask them to change characters. If they insisted on playing the jerk, I would coup de grace them, or just leave the group.
All very good points. The last thing I want to do is alienate the group. It's a new group I'm joining into, and you're right: I'm making too many assumptions when I think I can play a character like that.
It's not that I wanted to play a wizard, per say. I just wanted to have in-character knowledge to go with the fact I'll probably unconsciously know things most PCs shouldn't know.
If they insisted on playing the jerk, I would coup de grace them
Wow dude, cold-blooded!
Actually, I was not worried about your character at all. In my experience, pretty much any character is viable.
My question is directed at the social aspect of the game: The player to player interaction. You're gaming with a group of friends, right? Are they the kind of friends who will take your character's obnoxious behavior and work with it? laugh at it? play off it? Or are they the kind of friends who will get offended and angry at YOU for playing that kind of character?
A know-it-all is a form of anti-social behavior. People don't like know-it-alls. Just ask yourself: Can you envision any situation where the other players are mad at you, and you feel obligated to say "I was just playing my character!"? If so, you may want to rethink his personality.
This! how a character like this will work in a group depends so much on the players, their characters, and how you interact with them. One of the groups I play in had something of a know-it-all-mage who claimed to have written a Definitive Guide(tm) to just about everything. Even his magic missile was the word "DEFINITIVE". He was something of a pompous jerk, but didn't take it far enough where he insulted the other PCs too badly. For our part, the other PCs lightly poked fun at him from time to time on his obliviousness and his failure to live up to all he claimed to be. It really is a question of degree and party composition to determine if this will work.
As for feats, yeah, i second the toughness option. You're gonna need it to make up for your lack of con.
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Bards are a mast of controling the flow of battle. A bard at level 7 + can buff the group better then the caster can at any level. Plus brads can do alot more out of combat then any other class. Thay do have a limited spell choices. That can be one of your bouns becous you can back up heal if the need is ever there.
Another class to look at is the Witch.
To the OP:
Keep in mind that with a strength score of seven your light load will be up to 23 pounds. That means, unless you want to sacrifice movement, you will be able to carry your spellbook, some clothes, and a toothpick.
A bag of holding type I (weighing 15 lbs) + an explorer's outfit (weighing 8 lbs) puts you at your limit right there (in case you were thinking of going that route). Basically, for quite a few levels you are going to be screwed for carrying capacity.
"What about Floating Disc," you might ask. To which I say, "Do you really want all of your stuff sitting on an invisible platter waiting for someone or something to decide and pick on you?"
Wizard: "Oh look, we found the artifact that only I can possess! I'll put it here on my floating disc for safe keeping."
DM: "Excellent!" (begin maniacal laugh)
Seriously, though. Consider dropping some of your stats to increase your strength.
To the OP:
Keep in mind that with a strength score of seven your light load will be up to 23 pounds. That means, unless you want to sacrifice movement, you will be able to carry your spellbook, some clothes, and a toothpick.
A bag of holding type I (weighing 15 lbs) + an explorer's outfit (weighing 8 lbs) puts you at your limit right there (in case you were thinking of going that route). Basically, for quite a few levels you are going to be screwed for carrying capacity.
"What about Floating Disc," you might ask. To which I say, "Do you really want all of your stuff sitting on an invisible platter waiting for someone or something to decide and pick on you?"
Wizard: "Oh look, we found the artifact that only I can possess! I'll put it here on my floating disc for safe keeping."
DM: "Excellent!" (begin maniacal laugh)Seriously, though. Consider dropping some of your stats to increase your strength.
What more does a wizard need? And this is why you have a big stupid fighter or any companion with high strength. Or pack animals.
As for floating disk it only lasts a few hours so no one is going to do that at low levels. Wasting spell slots for recasting. I also fail to see how that's so much more insecure than any other method of storage unless you were imagining someone leaving their floating disk unattended. Impossible since the disk can't go very far from you until much higher levels (and even then not very far).
Your Diviner will do fine. Kingmaker is supposed to feature a lot of downtime. Years even. It's also actually pretty light on found magic items. Perfect for getting good use out of magic item creation. My group hasn't even started building their kingdom yet but it seems many items will be bought from the randomly generated stuff the buildings will create. Anyways the most important one you get for free: Scribe Scroll. Everything potions can do plus more and better. After that you'd want magic arms and armor (to equip your party) and wondrous items maybe staves (for yourself) at higher levels. Avoid the rest. Do grab extend spell though.
As for being a jerk the party is going to love you if you can craft them goodies at half cost no matter how caustic your personality.
Loremaster. Really you'd want bonus toughness right away. It's most useful at first level. so if you still don't have it by the time you prestige then yeah you should probably grab it first. Or you may find you manage to stay off monsters radar so well you don't need it. (Buffs don't end invisibility.)
When you can bonus 2nd level spell slots are better than pretty much anything. Can you have TOO many invisibilities, glitterdusts, mirror images etc?
if skills are the thing go with the expert class failing that the rogue with a high int will do nicely.
Thanks for all the replies, guys! One more way Paizo>Wizards: people actually respond to posts really fast!
As for feats, yeah, i second the toughness option. You're gonna need it to make up for your lack of con.
I was considering the whole invisibility/buff/battlefield-control/summoning line of thought for my game play style, at least until the DM figured me out and started throwing scent mobs against me. I figured with my insane initiative, plus the fact a diviner can never be surprised, that once combat started I'd be nigh-untouchable. Maybe that's assuming too much.
Bards are masters of controling the flow of battle. A bard at level 7 + can buff the group better then the casters can at any level. Plus bards can do a lot more out of combat then any other class. They do have limited spell choices. That can be one of your bonus because you can back up heal if the need is ever there.
That is a good set of points... If I'm not being a boomstick, but looking for battlefield control, singing stacks with most spells, and it would be nice to have a lot of dialogue options is the rogue decides to go a different route. And being literally king once the kingdom starts, as I previously mentioned, awesomeness.
Another class to look at is the Witch.
Not really interested in playing a witch, thanks.
Forget the know-it-all. But you say you're familiar with things that most PC's probably would not know. Work with the GM to say that your character grew up in a library (I played a wizard who traded off some class abilities for the equivelent of a 'Bardic Knowledge' check - it worked.) So instead of being an obnoxious know-it-all, make your character a driven perfectionist. He desperately wants to know everything, and is all too aware that he can't. Offer up advice quietly "I've never fought a troll, but I read this saga where..."
That's a really good idea. I'm not going to try to get the wizard house-ruled, but it's a good way to play up knowledge no matter if it's with a bard or a wizard, without being a real prick.
Keep in mind that with a strength score of seven your light load will be up to 23 pounds. That means, unless you want to sacrifice movement, you will be able to carry your spellbook, some clothes, and a toothpick.
....
Seriously, though. Consider dropping some of your stats to increase your strength.
Isn't that what the fighter/barbarian/etc is for? Heck, I'll have my Imp Consular polymorph into a pony if I really need to. I really need dex and int for what I'm going for. :-/
Your Diviner will do fine. Kingmaker is supposed to feature a lot of downtime. Years even. It's also actually pretty light on found magic items. Perfect for getting good use out of magic item creation.
That's one major question answered. Thanks! Goodbye every metamagic except Quicken Spell, hello craft wondrous item, wand, staff and magic arms & armor (wand for my imp, staff for me to pretty much have bonus spells/day at my own level). Selling loot to the party at 75% cost will give me enough cash to fund any and all crazy things I can think of...hmm...lich? *evil grin* "Finally, I have all the time in the world to learn it all"
When you can bonus 2nd level spell slots are better than pretty much anything. Can you have TOO many invisibilities, glitterdusts, mirror images etc?
At first I thought that too, since no feat gives you the equivalent of that. But then I thought otherwise. Because at the level I'll be able to get a bonus 2nd level spell, I'll be casting 5th, 6th and higher. (I don't have the book in front of me, so I may be wrong about that) Do you still think it's worth it then?
The DM will find ways to attack you. Never assume you're invincible.
If we were talking 3rd level spells I'd say absolutely. As it is it's a toss up. Plenty of 2nd level spells remain useful for a very long time. Invisibility being the most obvious. But resist energy scales so even at 11th level it's still the best energy protection.
I suppose it's going to matter most with your DM. If he tends to push you hard and throw a lot at you before you can rest safely then more spells is critical. The sooner you run out of the spells the sooner you'll be nearly helpless. If you can count on resting every few encounters spell conservation won't be as critical.
Bards are masters of controling the flow of battle.
This is simply untrue. They can arguably buff as well as a wizard maybe better but they do NOT have the spells to do battlefield control like a wizard can.
As another option, might I throw out something like Sivanah. Sivanah has Knowledge and Trickery as possible domains. Knowledge lets you have you all knowledge skills as class skills. The drawback is you need a decent intelligence and wisdom for the skill points. An elf may pursue worship of Sivanah to tease out answers to esoteric mysteries. And parties that don't need a cleric are few and far between. And I like the idea of a bladed scarf as a bonus weapon proficiency; they are extremely versatile.
And to mitigate some of the annoyance a know-it-all can generate, I would recommend having the character regularly engage the other PCs in conversation. At any given rest break, the character would either be lecturing them endlessly on one topic or another (which helps with in game justification if other players want to pick up knowledge skills) or ceaselessly asking questions of the others, using small flattery to get them to talk about themselves and filing away the information the whole time.
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Heh 10 Con... Your so dead ;)
Personally i'd make it a human not an elf. You don't need the huge amounts of dex you have, as you yourself pointed out your looking at a +15 initiative modifier which is overkill anyway.
The extra skill point per level is an extra knowledge potentially, and the thirst for knowledge you describe fits a human far better than an elf- theres less urgency to gather it as an elf, whereas humans tend to be more driven.
I don't know your group, but let me see if I understand your concept correctly:
You're going to play a character who will alienate his fellow adventurers by being rude and self-important. You will play a character who constantly adopts the "I know better than you" attitude; who refuses to ask for advice or help for fear of looking clueless; who will be weak in combat and will try to control combatants through his 'superior knowledge'. He is likely to conceal information from the group, until he can present it in an effective, self-promoting manner. He will bluff, and outright lie, to convince others of his superior knowledge.
Like I said, I don't know your group; but if I were considering this character, I'd ask myself - How much would I enjoy gaming with this character if somebody else in the group were playing him?
I have couple arrogant haughty jerk type friends. While they are that way with other they aren't with their close friends. We just don't put up with it or we've built up tolerance to ignore it.
Only thing about arrogant haughty jerks is they are low charisma. They tend to turn people off the second they enter the room and people automatically take dislike to them. They are good people but you have to get past that rough exterior.
Heh 10 Con... Your so dead ;)
Personally i'd make it a human not an elf. You don't need the huge amounts of dex you have, as you yourself pointed out your looking at a +15 initiative modifier which is overkill anyway.
The extra skill point per level is an extra knowledge potentially, and the thirst for knowledge you describe fits a human far better than an elf- theres less urgency to gather it as an elf, whereas humans tend to be more driven.
Half elf works with the Skill Focus to get the prereq for Loremaster.
Heh 10 Con... Your so dead ;)
Personally i'd make it a human not an elf. You don't need the huge amounts of dex you have, as you yourself pointed out your looking at a +15 initiative modifier which is overkill anyway.
The extra skill point per level is an extra knowledge potentially, and the thirst for knowledge you describe fits a human far better than an elf- theres less urgency to gather it as an elf, whereas humans tend to be more driven.
The elf isn't just for t.he extra dex, but the spellcasting bonuses. Plus, I hate playing humans.
If you're after an extra 2nd lvl spell slot and are allowed 3.5 material, check out Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane or Mage).
2nd lvl spell slot and +2 Spellcraft.
I am GMing Kingmaker, and based on my experiences, you need three things:
Combat potential; you are fighting a bazillion trolls, super-AC monsters, fey and magical beasts gallore. Being sub-par until you get a cohort is death)
Social graces; at least one with a LOT of charisma to make sure you get someone competent to fill the ruler position. Also, you want to make sure at least 4-5 NPCs are helpful when you start making a country, so you can fill the government positions
Wide array of skills; the AP makes sure a lot of skills come into play, but the most important is to have at least someone with sick perception. And I mean sick, like +15 at lv5, because DC25+ is all too common.
Your loremaster would be useful as magister, some big fire spells are just gravy when dealing with the aforementioned troll horde, and recognizing monsters is always good, because there are a lot of obscure monsters that made me go "Wut?". But if you have no charisma-based character, be a bard and be the king. It's good to be king ^^
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