Ok so not to derail another thread I started this one. Lets not get into Points and such but here is the deal.
A psion should be something new you can't do with other caster even if it uses the same system. What we need to ask is why a psion? why this class? what makes it different? And if all you have is "spell points" then there is really no point to the class.
What could be it's thing? what could it do other casters could not? Lets suppose your limited to using the core casting system , much like all other casters do, what makes it a psion? how does it stand out? What makes it not just another wizard? What makes it stand out? What can it do no other caster can do?
This thread is for your thoughts, lets hear em.
If you're limiting it to the "core casting" system then you're also limiting it to the core spells. In which case it doesn't do anything different because your hypothesis prevents it from being so.
If you just mean vancian, and PsiPowers as published otherwise work, here's what it means to me.
1)Flavor. The flavor of psionics to me is a dreamwalker. The different disciplines are all established character archetypes. The seer or psychic who gets visions like Cordelia from Angel or Johnny Smith from Dead Zone. The manipulator, Jean Grey or Carrie who are powerful telekinetics. The communicator, Professor X or Talia from Bab5. It goes on. The idea of innate powers rather than power from an external source. If there is any source it is the collective unconscious (dream/astral plane) of all sentient creatures. You don't summon demons, you conjure forth faceless nameless entities from your worst nightmares (astral construct). Lovecraft/Howard/Clark Ashton Smith. Stephen King. Also X-Men and B5. Those to me are the big inspirations in terms of flavor.
2)Mechanics. Action economy. I see the powers a psionic character having as not necessarily controlled by him, they are reactive. A seer doesn't "cast" Precognition, it happens to them and the player decides when. At higher levels the characters gain more control over their power and manifest powers as swift actions. Lots of minor swift action things, somehow draining yourself (psionic focus) to accomplish otherwise impossible tasks. Innate abilities, be they like a sorcerer or with power points.
To be honest though I love the power point system. There's nothing wrong with liking a system because of the...system itself. I play pathfinder because I prefer the system to that of 4e.
By core casting I means use the same rule as every other caster. You could technically do that and keep the spell points. It would mean powers wrote up as spells and auto scaling and not being able to pour more points into powers to make em better. Basically a more flexible sorcerer.
I said core casting as it would allow it to be used with lesser page count maybe reprinting the new "powers" you need but all in all not needing to waste 6-8 pages explaining how the new casting system works.
What I was saying is what makes it a psion if you do not have points? The class should not be about it's system but what it does. The flavor of a class is not in slots or points. Once ya take away the points what is a psion? The class defenders sadly make it all about the system because many of them want to system not the class and many unlike you could care less about the flavor.
You can make a psion as it stands on a sorcerer's frame, so what should it do to make it one of a kind? What makes it something new if not a whole new system?
Seeker,
I have not played any psions but I have played psychic warriors in both 3.0 and 3.5. So instead of trying to directly answer your question I am going to talk about the differences between bards and psychic warriors. Starting with the assumption the only change I am making to the psychic warrior is to replace the powers know and spell points with the bard’s spells known and spells per level per day and convert the psionic powers to arcane spells. The remainder of the class features remains the same including being able to take psionic feats directly. The bard is a lore master, party buffer with some combat abilities mostly reliant on feats and their buffing ability with great playability outside the combat arena. The psychic warrior is a self-buffer with excellent combat potential and limited playability outside the combat arena. In total, the spell/power lists and class features are more important for these two classes than how they cast their spells. The flavor and playability of each does not change.
I would expect if the psion’s powers were kept separate from the sorcerer’s spell list and the class features remained the same a psion would remain distinct from a sorcerer with a psionic blood line.
While I can’t answer your questions directly I hope my experience with bards and psychic warriors is of some help.
Doug
if ya ever write it down would like to see what ya come up with really.I started the same thing a while back but the HD crash took it out and I just never started back on it.
A psion should be something new you can't do with other caster even if it uses the same system.
Why?
In the first place, the concept of a psion, or of psionics in general as I understand it, is someone who can manipulate the world through direct mental power. In some areas this may duplicate the effects of existing magic, and in some it may not. After all you can do almost anything with arcane magic and divine magic, so if you say that the psion has to be different, that doesn't leave much that they CAN do that isn't already done by another caster.
In the second place, why does it have to use the same system? If we can't get totally different effects with it than we already achieve with magic (and as already pointed out that's a tough one right from the beginning), what else is there but the approach of the system to make it different?
By core casting I means use the same rule as every other caster. You could technically do that and keep the spell points. It would mean powers wrote up as spells and auto scaling and not being able to pour more points into powers to make em better. Basically a more flexible sorcerer.
I said core casting as it would allow it to be used with lesser page count maybe reprinting the new "powers" you need but all in all not needing to waste 6-8 pages explaining how the new casting system works.
What I was saying is what makes it a psion if you do not have points? The class should not be about it's system but what it does. The flavor of a class is not in slots or points. Once ya take away the points what is a psion? The class defenders sadly make it all about the system because many of them want to system not the class and many unlike you could care less about the flavor.
You can make a psion as it stands on a sorcerer's frame, so what should it do to make it one of a kind? What makes it something new if not a whole new system?
I just told you? You could play a sorcerer in a psion's frame too. You could play a psion in a warrior's fram. These have nothing to do with anything. Sorcerer is, IMO, an utter crap class. It's a cop-out, a compromise between Vancian and Psionics/Power Points which both work fine themselves.
Like I said, psionics is about what your character can do period. Sorcerer can't cast a spell as many times as he needs, he is strictly limited by his array of spell slots dispite having more magical energy left that day. The feel of psionics, to me, is utterly different than magic. You can try to shoehorn it into the vancian system, but it will just kill the whole feel of psionics.
You have said before that you don't think psionics plays well with core magic, but until you can give me specific gripes we're just going to go in circles of me not answering your questions to your satisfaction.
If I were to create a psion class I would probably go the route of Trees like in D20 Modern except not as tied to one ability score. There would be several Trees that would reflect different abilities and each ability would be tied to a different ability score.
Example Trees would be:
Telepathy (Int)
Psychic Armor (Con)
Psychic Weapon (Str)
Telekinesis (Will)
Mind Control (Cha)
Pyrokinesis (Will)
Mental Projection (Int)
etc.
Each Tree would take one specific ability and enhance it, some trees would have prerequisites of powers from other trees and there would be a tree that allows you to take powers from one tree and combine them with powers from another tree (Pyrochinetic Psychic Armor for example).
There would probably be several use x/day powers in each tree based on the ability score as well.
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As my understanding of how Psionics works it has to do with using your personality and mental capabilities to ... basically do stuff.
This meaning the core stats for these would be the 3 mental stats. In this respect they will have much in common with the spellcasting classes.
The problem as I see it, is that to get these abilities to work you need to concentrate on what you are trying to do. We all know what happened to concentration, and any psionic class would have to find a way of working with, and around this.
If the psionic PC doesn't have to concentrate on using his abilities then they would be walking around randomly unleashing these effect whenever the thought crosses their mind or when they are startled.
Giving them a typical spellcaster progression to me doesn't seem to be an AWFUL idea but I don't like it.
Point systems are lame and essentially broken as far as I am concerned.
I... don't really know where I am going with this right now... what were the main points?
1) What we need to ask is why a psion?
2) What makes it different?
3) What could it do other casters could not?
4) What makes it not just another wizard?
1) Because they are a cool part of the universe, they fit a unique role that isn't taken care of in that they are self made men. They have no need for gods or advanced weaponry!
2) See #1
3) First off everything they could do "casting" wise would be spontaneous, even if it does take longer to "get out" due to concentration.
4) They need not study, they shouldn't be automatically be prohibited from wearing armor and weapons simply due to the nature of their special abilities, psions are born, not raised or trained. That is the main thing to keep in mind here. They were born with a gift and the nature of the class they choose would be a representation of how they used it. Say you could use your mental powers to help bear the load of the armor you wear, or shoot arrows more accurately. It need not be only limited to "Psychic Missile" and illusions etc.
Why?
In the first place, the concept of a psion, or of psionics in general as I understand it, is someone who can manipulate the world through direct mental power. In some areas this may duplicate the effects of existing magic, and in some it may not. After all you can do almost anything with arcane magic and divine magic, so if you say that the psion has to be different, that doesn't leave much that they CAN do that isn't already done by another caster.
In the second place, why does it have to use the same system? If we can't get totally different effects with it than we already achieve with magic (and as already pointed out that's a tough one right from the beginning), what else is there but the approach of the system to make it different?
1 can work with the current system. Mental powers are full as the sorcerer casts though pure will alone.
2 it must be the same system if ya wish to see it used. Even if it's points they need to use the core system or your stuck with them never being used.
And that was my point what does the psion bring to the table without points? If all it brings is the system there is no point in the class.
Like I said, psionics is about what your character can do period. Sorcerer can't cast a spell as many times as he needs, he is strictly limited by his array of spell slots dispite having more magical energy left that day. The feel of psionics, to me, is utterly different than magic. You can try to shoehorn it into the vancian system, but it will just kill the whole feel of psionics.
It doe not need a whole new system to use points. ALL I am hearing is about spell points and nothing about the psion, showing once more people don't give a fig about the psion they want the system not the class.
I want the class, I want to know what folks think it should bring to the table and all I hear is "points" that is not the class bringing anything that is a system not a class. SO your saying it brings nothing then there is no point in making it
There should be a point. So without the system what does it bring? What should it bring?
If I were to create a psion class I would probably go the route of Trees like in D20 Modern except not as tied to one ability score. There would be several Trees that would reflect different abilities and each ability would be tied to a different ability score.
Each Tree would take one specific ability and enhance it, some trees would have prerequisites of powers from other trees and there would be a tree that allows you to take powers from one tree and combine them with powers from another tree (Pyrochinetic Psychic Armor for example).
Interesting though, more along the line of something like bloodlines then?
1) Because they are a cool part of the universe, they fit a unique role that isn't taken care of in that they are self made men. They have no need for gods or advanced weaponry!
2) See #1
3) First off everything they could do "casting" wise would be spontaneous, even if it does take longer to "get out" due to concentration.
4) They need not study, they shouldn't be automatically be prohibited from wearing armor and weapons simply due to the nature of their special abilities, psions are born, not raised or trained. That is the main thing to keep in mind here. They were born with a gift and the nature of the class they choose would be a representation of how they used it. Say you could use your mental powers to help bear the load of the armor you wear, or shoot arrows more accurately. It need not be only limited to "Psychic Missile" and illusions etc.
Sorcerer fills all that you just said, What makes them new? why are they not just sorcerers? What do they bring or should they bring that a sorcerer can not do? Why should they get armor and weapons when sorcerers who do the very things you listed do not?
It doe not need a whole new system to use points. ALL I am hearing is about spell points and nothing about the psion, showing once more people don't give a fig about the psion they want the system not the class.I want the class, I want to know what folks think it should bring to the table and all I hear is "points" that is not the class bringing anything that is a system not a class. SO your saying it brings nothing...
WTF are you talking about?! We keep saying why it is different! You're just not listening. If it uses the vancian system but just uses points...THATS WHAT XPH DOES!!!!! So apparently you like psionics as they are. Are you even at all familiar with the XPH?!
Psionics is defined by the psionic powers, just as spells define a spellcaster. Please do me a favor and define the sorcerer without mentioning spells. That's what you're asking of us. The concept of a psion is someone who gains control of his own subconscious, and whose entire nervous system and body becomes an extension of his mind. He can control his autonomic nerve impulses to accomplish preternatural swiftness or resilience, and can reach out and crush the mind of his adversaries. There are only two parts to ANY class. The flavor and the rules. You are telling us that flavor doesn't matter, and then saying we're only throwing rules at you. That's all there is bub.
Here's a list of things the sorcerer can't do that a psion can: Psion
Interesting though, more along the line of something like bloodlines then?
Bloodlines are probably the closest current approximation in the game, but not exactly.
I'll use Psychic Barrier (psychic shield would be confusing) as my example. You start at level 1 and you pick this tree first. The first rung of the tree lets you summon a weak psychic barrier that gives you an untyped +1 bonus to AC, Con bonus +3 times per day and lasts Con bonus minutes. The second rung increases that shield from weak to moderate giving a +2 untyped bonus, the third rung(5th or 6th level) lets you extend the bonus to adjacent squares, the fourth rung (10th level) extends it to any ally within 10', and the fifth rung increases the bonus yet again to +3 with a strong barrier(15th level).
This is a pick an ability and you can power it up as you level type thing, you'd be able to pick other trees or be a generalist that can do alot of weaker abilities if you wanted, or be really good at one power and moderate at a few others.
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If I were to create a psion class I would probably go the route of Trees ...
I like this. Cleric has Domains. Sorcerer has Bloodlines. Wizard has Schools. Why not do something similar with Psion and Disciplines?
Also, though I love the Power Points that go along with Powers, I would be willing to try giving them spells per day like other Core casters. But augmentation needs to remain a part of Psionics. Though, some effects would auto-scale.
An example of such a system could be:
Casting Time Hop is normally a 3rd level power, the augmentation to include more targets would be an auto-scaling feature. If you want to include a larger creature, you could prepare/manifest the power as one level higher for each size larger.
Regardless of what system the Psion uses for manifesting powers, I believe augmentation is essential.
Meatrace I know what the XPH does.{And no it is not just slot casting with points} That is not what I am asking. What I am asking that if there is a psion not made to be the showcase of a new system what does it do?
The XPH rules do not work for a publisher unless they are part of every single product they make. They just do not work as they do not work with the same system. So you can't use em in product unless your selling it to the tiny group of people using the extra book needed.
What I am asking is what should it bring if not a new system? If all you have is "the system" then there is no point in making a psion. As the system does not work as is.
What I have asked is what do folks thing it should do? What should be special or unique about the class? And again if all you have is "the system" then ya have nothing as there is no point to a class that can not be used.
Look at the AGP we have two caster that fill the same role as other caster and use the same system yet bring something new and different to the table. The alchmist uses "spells" that are not spells and the summoner who is just a caster has a pet and spell like ablities that puts him apart from a wizard summoner
what besides a new system should a psion bring?
riatin I like that ideal. Jason what about something akin to a ki pool? A set pool that allowed you to enhance your "spells" in some ways? Maybe what the pool could do would depend upon your disciple?
1 can work with the current system. Mental powers are full as the sorcerer casts though pure will alone.
But there is also an existing psionics system as well, and one holy grail of Pathfinder was backward compatibility.
2 it must be the same system if ya wish to see it used. Even if it's points they need to use the core system or your stuck with them never being used.
Does it? Fact is, a LOT of people liked the original system and want to keep using a variation of it in Pathfinder. I agree it has issues within Paizo's business model, but that does not exclude it from use. Not everybody is using Pathfinder to run nothing but Paizo adventures, and of those that do not all will be excluding psionics even if the adventures do not include them.
And that was my point what does the psion bring to the table without points? If all it brings is the system there is no point in the class.
You mean apart from being a different kind of flexible caster with different powers and a unique way of using them to greater or lesser effect? A lot of people would disagree with your opinion there, seeker - and it IS an opinion, not a fact.
Fact of the matter is, the power point system is part and parcel of what psionics is. It's not 'magic with a points system', it's mental powers with a different system. It's a combination of a different approach AND a different system. A good 75% of the powers are very similar to spells in their final effects, and this is because there are some things that you want to do no matter how you are trying to achieve them. Where these powers differ from spells is in their greater flexibility and augmentation options that can in effect turn one power into a chain of powers.
The other 25% are powers that have no spell equivalents, and they often have features spells don't include like immediate action options in defensive powers. This fits thematically with the 'thought' concept of psionics because you don't need to wave your hands or say something to make them happen - you just think it.
The power point system is what helps to make these things work. You can't have augmentation options without it, and that makes up a good 50% of the abilities of a psion or wilder, while acting as a limiter on their power by consuming more of their resources.
To those of us that love the system, the feel of psionics is superbly supported by the mechanics. Let me explain this with an example:
A psion creates an astral construct. As he advances in level, he gets progressively better at shaping the ectoplasm and making better and better astral contructs that are more and more powerful. At any point, he can expend less power points and create a less strong construct, because it is all one augmented power he never 'forgets' how to create less powerful constructs. It's direct, simple and intuitive, and it works.
Now take the sorcerer. He may have summon monster I at first level, but he doesn't summon more powerful monsters at any higher level unless he takes a new spell. Then he can also choose to 'forget' the earlier spell. He can always have the most powerful summon monster spell he can cast, but he may not have the rest. It's clunky, and doesn't feel as smooth. For a wizard it feels even worse, as they have to prepare whatever spell they are going to use, they can't just learn a spell and then use it when they need it.
Now there is a price the psion pays for his one power - it has less facility than the summon monster spell to create variety or numbers of creatures. He has at level 20 only 36 powers to the 52 spells of the sorcerer or the 55 of the specialist wizard. Not all powers have this kind of flexibility and augmentation too, but enough do to give us a very unique feeling system that works very well alongside the feel it is meant to convey.
Sorcerer fills all that you just said, What makes them new? why are they not just sorcerers? What do they bring or should they bring that a sorcerer can not do? Why should they get armor and weapons when sorcerers who do the very things you listed do not?
This is exactly what you get with a Vancian psionic character: just another caster with a few slightly different spells. No augmentation, just different spells. The extra spells are literally all you have left. What's worse is, you lose a lot of the feel of psionics with it because you no longer have that smooth progression of power combined with continuity of knowledge.
Man if ya do not like my topic you may leave.The topic is what can psion bring without a new system. You seem to only want to talk about a system not a class.
The XPH does not work for a publishers needs. You can not put an AP out without included non core classes you use for NPC's. You can not do that with psionics without changing how they work, so whats the point?
You can say it works all day long but how many times did anyone use psions for anything? It just does not meet the needs.
But why it does not work is not the topic, what can a psion bring is. And others have pointed out a few things, no one is making you reply to a thread topic ya do not like.
Man if ya do not like my topic you may leave.The topic is what can psion bring without a new system. You seem to only want to talk about a system not a class.
Your topic says "Let's Talk Psionics." Perhaps if you had called it: "Let's try and make psionics a Vancian casting system with spell slots because I don't like power points" you would have had a different response.
The XPH does not work for a publishers needs. You can not put an AP out without included non core classes you use for NPC's. You can not do that with psionics without changing how they work, so whats the point?
So what's the point of the APG?
Like I said, not everybody uses Pathfinder to play nothing but Paizo APs, and playing a Paizo AP does not preclude a player having a psionic character.
You can say it works all day long but how many times did anyone use psions for anything? It just does not meet the needs.
You mean YOU didn't use it, obviously a very great many of the rest of us very much DID and STILL DO!
But why it does not work is not the topic, what can a psion bring is.
But it does work. A great many of us out here found it worked very well indeed.
Seeker, I know you aren't fond of the psionics power point system, I totally respect that. But I cannot respect your constantly asserting your opinions as if they were facts - a lot of players obviously did find the 3.5 psionic system worked for them. I don't mind you stating your opinion, but stop trying to make it a declaration of irrefutable truth, because it isn't.
As for what the psion brings, he brings, as I have pointed out already, flexible manifesting and a smooth continuous progression of powers that is intuitive and logical, as well as a different approach that leads to different powers and specialisations than conventional magic.
And others have pointed out a few things, no one is making you reply to a thread topic ya do not like.
"Let's Talk Psionics" is the topic, not "Why Psionics Doesn't Work", and I love psionics. It's your assumptions and assertions that I have a problem with, because you insist on asserting your opinions and experiences as if they were facts when clearly a great many people have vastly different opinions and experiences.
Oh, and for the record, Psionics does work.
But there is also an existing psionics system as well, and one holy grail of Pathfinder was backward compatibility.
Which means you can use your 3.5 stuff with it, not that anything they make will be just like it was in 3.5 The xph is bc with pathfinder. This is a non issue.
Does it? Fact is, a LOT of people liked the original system and want to keep using a variation of it in Pathfinder. I agree it has issues within Paizo's business model, but that does not exclude it from use. Not everybody is using Pathfinder to run nothing but Paizo adventures, and of those that do not all will be excluding psionics even if the adventures do not include them.
But that is the bread and butter of the company the AP's. If they make a book they support it and how do they do that? The AP's. As it stands the XPH just does not work, you can just place an NPC in an AP and all the rules to play him on 1 page without reworking how the rules work so why even use it?
You mean apart from being a different kind of flexible caster with different powers and a unique way of using them to greater or lesser effect? A lot of people would disagree with your opinion there, seeker - and it IS an opinion, not a fact.
Once more your not hearing what I am saying. the new system does not work for the needs. This is a fact, that simple you might not like it but it is a fact.
What I asked is if that is out what should a psion do? If ya can't use the system what is it's roll what does it bring? That is what I am asking.
Others in this thread has shown their ideal , if you only want the points fine but then if ya can't use the point system you just made the class have no place. Your supporting a system and saying the class can not exist without the system then when ya can not us that system that class is pointless.
If ya like the system cool, but the topic is who to do a psion without that sub system.
Dabbler I am not gonna quote ya things getting to long :) No man it does not work for an AP. Can you fit a level one psion, all the rules, powers and every thing on one single page?
Not cutting the rules down till they are no longer the same rules in the book but can it all fit on one page? If not then no it does not work.
I keep asking what it brings and all ya got is "points" then it brings nothing it's not a class at all just an alt wizard for an alt system with nothing to it worth keeping.
But that is the bread and butter of the company the AP's. If they make a book they support it and how do they do that? The AP's. As it stands the XPH just does not work, you can just place an NPC in an AP and all the rules to play him on 1 page without reworking how the rules work so why even use it?
Once again, not everybody plays the APs, and not everybody that plays them excludes the existing psionics system.
Once more your not hearing what I am saying. the new system does not work for the needs. This is a fact, that simple you might not like it but it is a fact.
But I AM hearing what you are saying, and it's an opinion, not a fact.
What I asked is if that is out what should a psion do? If ya can't use the system what is it's roll what does it bring? That is what I am asking.
OK, so we remove all casting from the game - now what does the wizard bring? It's a question that makes as much sense.
Others in this thread has shown their ideal , if you only want the points fine but then if ya can't use the point system you just made the class have no place. Your supporting a system and saying the class can not exist without the system then when ya can not us that system that class is pointless.
<sigh> You really don't get it do you?
If you drive an Aston Martin DB9, and you enjoy it, why would you downgrade to a Reliant Robin? Psionics is one of those things where the mechanics work very well to support the flavour and the concept - so well that the lovers wouldn't have it any other way. You could try and introduce the flavour and concept with a vancian slot-based system, but you would be left with a system that lost out badly as far as many are concerned.
If ya like the system cool, but the topic is who to do a psion without that sub system.
The topic is "Let's Talk Psionics". To many of us the whole system - both mechanics and flavour - IS psionics. It's a whole, a thing we like and treasure, and you cannot divorce the one from the other.
If you want help designing a 'psychic sorcerer' I'm all your man for that, but at least give it a clear title so people don't think you mean something you don't. Call it 'psychic' classes rather than psionic ones and you'll avoid a lot of flack here.
Dabbler I know what the title says, I do think most folks should at lest read the first post. Which ya know explains what the thread is about.
And while not everyone uses AP's everything Paizo makes is geared toward the ideal that it can be used in an AP or something of the like.
Now as much as I am an advocate for something new I do not hate the current system. I have allowed players to use it and most likely still would if it fit the world I was running. I do think they system needs work alot of work really but not a horrible system. Works fine if that is your only caster system I find.
You guys seem to think I hate the system, I do think it does not work well with core but eh alot of splat did not. Now ya can call it an opinion all ya want but the fact is you can not put the level 1 psion and rules for it and the powers on one page. So it will remain unsupported at large.
So yes I often ask what can we do other then the points as it just does not work from a publisher point as to many people do not use them and it takes to many pages to put them in anything and ya can't put them in something without having the stats unless ya require yet another book, which in turn will lower sales. Meaning it is less likely ya will ever use them in anything big making the book and class pretty much what it always has been..a unloved step child.
So yes I started this thread to see folk's ideal for what a psion should be or could be if it was not in the sub system. That is what I am asking is what should it be, not what it is. I do not want another sorcerer, but I do not think it will make it as is so what should it be is what I am pondering. what makes it scream "mind powers" what makes it more then just a ran of the mill wizard if ya can not use the point system?
I am not trying to argue with you and meatrace I am asking where could we go if we could not use the current system. What could we do to make it something neat and one of a kind with the right flavor?
To be blunt I am tired of psionics being ignored and unused and forgotten and if that takes reworking it into something else to be used and supported so be it.
Some people like their Psionic systems to be slot based, like a Pathfinder Sorcerer, others prefer a point based spell-casting system, like the 3.5 Psion. I'm wondering if anyone has experience or ideas for a hybrid point based system.
The concept I'm tossing out here, is that the Psionic Caster gets a certain number of "psionic" Slots of varying levels, similar to how a Sorcerer gets a certain number of "spell" slots of varying levels.
The fluff justification, is that using psionics are mentally tiring like performing complex mental tasks are mentally tiring or performing physical feats are physically tiring. The reason for a limited number of slots of various "tier/levels" of abilities is that similar to the real-world situation where one can only perform an immensely complex and complicated mental calculation/concentration or a physically draining type of labor so many times per day, but they are still not so drained that they can't do something a bit easier (lower "tier/level" ability)
So, you've essentially got a Sorcerer/Psion with maybe some different abilities and free Still Spell/Silent Spell on all their abilities, and a custom spell list.
The points system comes in by giving the Psion a pool of points they can use to augment their Psionic "spells". Perhaps, they can increase their caster level up to a certain limit. Maybe they can use their psionic abilities longer, or maintain concentration. Maybe they can use these points to apply Psionic versions of "meta-magic" such as shapeable spells, or others without using up higher level slots. Maybe they can use their pool of points to make their abilities harder to resist.
That is kinda what was brought up upthread. I am starting to think of a point pool the more I think about it. Or some way to enhance some powers. Maybe tired in with disciplines?
I also like the ideal of psions having a focus kinda like a wizards bonded item. Psychics often use crystals for this. Maybe they still have V's like spells but as they are simple "Point, talking" come to me, sleep" and the like they should not have ASF as I am with some of the others that really does not fit my ideal of a psion.
OK, I take that on board seeker - but that said, how are you going to make it backward compatible?
I suggest that rather than trying to make a new 'psionics' system, you try and make 'an arcane system with a psionics feel' - it'll head off a lot of problems with lover like us!
OK, that's said and done.
What does the psion in particular and psionics in general bring to the table?
- Powers of the mind. Psionics should have powers that are invoked by concentration, not by incantation or gesture.
- Powers should be direct and simple. Everything should be based on simple precepts, even if it isn't a simple outcome.
- Powers should be flexible. One power should have several uses, because the mind is a flexible tool (again, a matter of simple principals).
- Powers should escalate based on building blocks. Whether we call it augmentation or escalation or whatever, it should scale up as the character increases in level.
- Powers should have flexible uses in various combinations of sizes of effect.
- You want a different kind of power user for different aspects of the mind. In D&D these are the intellectual (Intelligence), intuitive (Wisdom) and emotively (Charisma) driven forms of creating effects. In the old system you had the Psion, Psychic Warrior and Wilder.
This is how I see psionics working, it's how the current system works, so it's the standard you have to reach.
Man if ya do not like my topic you may leave.The topic is what can psion bring without a new system. You seem to only want to talk about a system not a class.
You asked for us to show how psionics deserves a separate system. We did. You ignored it. There is no point of this thread because you refuse to listen.
The XPH does not work for a publishers needs. You can not put an AP out without included non core classes you use for NPC's. You can not do that with psionics without changing how they work, so whats the point?
Then what you're saying is that APs will never be able to include anything from outside of the core book and Bestiary. BS. There is an APG coming out, and some ultimate magic guide, and more bestiaries and I can bet you anything they will use content from those books. All they have to do is make a new psionics book and have a warning on the front of the AP saying "requires Pathfinder Psionics Handbook"
You can say it works all day long but how many times did anyone use psions for anything?
*cough* EBERRON *cough*
Psionics were a core element to Eberron, and the adventures, sourcebooks, and core book all assumed you had access to the expanded psionics handbook. So it was used a lot. A. LOT.
But why it does not work is not the topic, what can a psion bring is. And others have pointed out a few things, no one is making you reply to a thread topic ya do not like.
Well for one we have made very engaging points on a flavor and a mechanical level to maintain psionics existence as is. You ignore them and just say "LOLZ YOU JUST LIKE THE OP POWER POINTS" no matter what we say. Also, it's funny because you wouldn't stfu in another thread about psionics so now you expect us to hush while you bash something we love. No dice. These boards are free and someone needs to tell you how wrong you are.
One last time I will put it to you: What is it about Psionics you don't like. Saying well Paizo hasn't published a psionics book isn't an excuse because it's circular logic. Paizo shouldn't publish a psionics book because it doesn't work in their system. It doesn't work in their system because they haven't published a Psionics book. LOLZ!
Seriously. Where did the bad Psion touch you? PLEASE I'm begging you so that we can have a debate rather than a shouting match, WHAT about the system didn't you like. Specifically. In meticulous detail, using game developers terms, lots of math to prove imbalance, and specific anecdotal evidence.
If you can't use the XPH system what you would have to do to preserve the flavor and power of psionics is this.
Bloodlines based on disciplines. Disciplines give a blanket utility like Telepath gets + 1/2 level on Sense Motive and Diplomacy checks. At 8th level they get Telepathy as the monster ability with a range of 10 feet per caster level. 12th level they can use Sending 1/day.
Talents like rogue, but each talent lets you use a new spell like ability x times per day. SLAs though, not spell slots. Every odd level you get a new talent, and the talents morph as you go up in power.
Example: You choose charm at level 1, you can use charm person 1/day. At level 3 you can use it 2/day, etc. At level 5 you can use charm 3/day and suggestion 1/day. At 9th level your uses of Charm person become Charm Monster and suggestion becomes Dominate Person if you wish.
Something like that.
How about just disregard spell casting requirements, but make the target nunbers for concentration higher? Like 15 + 3xlevel rather than 15 + 2x level as for normal magic?
As for crystals, they are kind of thematic but not essential.
That is not a bad base meatrace, I like the though of psions gaining something other people just can't gain such as telepathy They should have some always one powers {slots or points be damned they should have something like that}. I really like the ideal about talents as well.
Both of those ideals could bring something interesting no matter how they cast as they are not really tired at all to the casting system of the class.
On the crystals it does not need to be crystals but many "psychics" often had a focus, something they could kind enhance themselves with. Crystals is just the common option. It could be an option for more power just like the arcane bond does.
On another note I am not gonna keep arguing with ya dabbler and meatrace over points in this thread. Not much point in it :).
I will say Meatrace that core use of psionics was what sold me on eberron. Was so glad to get some use out of the xph and loved seeing psionics thrown a bit of love. Ya wanna guess what was my hands down fav 2e setting :)
As I said I don't hate the system unlike some thing wotc put out stares with hate at Bo9s but neither am I limiting myself to one true way to do psionics as many systems use it and do not use points.
OK, so can I suggest some disciplines of abilities we can consider:
Telepathy (communication, mind control etc.)
Psychokinetics (force and energy manipulation)
Psychometabolism (mind over body)
Metacognition (perceiving things beyond ordinary senses)
Aportation (moving self or objects around)
Metacreativity (manipulating physical objects or creating or destroying them)
Telepathy is what people think about with mind powers, but it's not the only ability. We can use these as the roots of the ability trees - for example, telepathy could have empathic, telepathic and mental assault trees. Gaining abilities along trees (for example, telepathy could start with simple communication and expand out to mind reading and mind control) should be easier than gaining new trees.
That is a pretty good starting list Dabbler. Although metacreativty and Aportation could be put together as they both manipulat objects. Ya might be able to roll Metacognition and telepathy into the same one as well
That is a pretty good starting list Dabbler. Although metacreativty and Aportation could be put together as they both manipulat objects. Ya might be able to roll Metacognition and telepathy into the same one as well
I think telepathy will have enough powers in it as it is - all the mind control, emotion contraol and things like mental blast will fall into it, after all. There are a great many powers that can go into metacognition as well, so I'd be inclined to keep them separate.
Rolling the metacreativity in with aportation is a good idea though - I think myself abilities like flight belong in psychokinesis, leaving just the teleport and plane shift powers in aportation. On the other handm, if metacreativity is going to draw matter from other planes or places, it's a good match to put those there.
I removed a post that was getting too personal. It's just a game folks.
Good points. A while back I went and took all the core spells and all the psion powers and put them in "schools" I wish my HD had not crashed sigh, hat took a while. psychokinesis seems a good place for flight.
As for psionics...if Divine magic comes from outside, and Arcane magic comes from around, then Psionic magic comes from inside.
Vancian is all about being scientific. Each spell is a unique and specific formula - gesture these specific ways, speak these specific words, have on hand this specific material - to alter the world. A wizard is an alchemist and scholar who learns these bizarre and exact formula and puts them down in his spell book. The sorcerer is a savant; he doesn't learn the spells, the spells come naturally to him...but they still come to him in the form of these exact formula. He still requires the words and the gestures. Unlike the wizard, he's naturally magical. Thus why he doesn't need the material components; his body and blood are the components. He's still using power around him to do it, he's just doing it naturally.
Psions however do not learn powers as wizards learn spells. There's no book learning. Psionic characters just grasp the power inside of them and thrust it into the world. Wilders literally just grab physics by the collar and headbutts it until it does what they want. Psions reach inside their own mind and pull out what they wish.
So why do we like psionics?
A lot of reasons. Partially because some people - like me - just don't like vancian casting. It's bizarre, it's stiff, it's needlessly complicated, it's not fluid or intuitive. The power point system is incredibly easy and is something most gamers are already used to. 90% of all other games out there, video game or tabletop, use some sort of "energy points" or "magic points" or something to that end.
Partially because, well, vancian can't do a lot. The D&D wizard is sort of it's own creature. No other fictional spellcaster uses the fire and forget system of D&D. There's a lot of different types of characters I'd like to make that can't function under Vancian, but can under the PP system.
Another reason is simply because psionics doesn't have the forced psuedo-science fluff that vancian does. All D&D wizards are bookish and scientific - they need to be, it's how their very powers work. But psions? Maybe the psion has strange and wonderful lucid dreams, and when she wakes up, she grabs a part of that power and takes it into the real world with her. Maybe the psion has tapped into the powers of an artifact that have granted him power over his surroundings. Maybe some unearthly monster possessed the psion and has given him these powers. Perhaps the psion was trained to find that spark inside herself and unleash it into the world. Or maybe she just woke up one morning and felt the little niggling in the back of her head that she could do something.
Certainly, some suggestions for arcane classes can encompass one of these, but all at once? Nope.
Lastly, as for complaints that psionics need their own thing, no. They can't. It's not that they don't - that'd be pretty sweet! - but they can't. Can you imagine the uproar that would occur if psionics got a power that wizards couldn't use in some way? Hell, it's already happened - look at how angsty wizard players get when psions can change their energy type at will and they can't! How exactly are psions supposed to have their own thing when wizards already have Dominate Monster and Telekinesis and other similar spells?
It's not psions that walk on wizard land, it's wizards that have mugged everyone else and taken their stuff.
Psionic characters just grasp the power inside of them and thrust it into the world. Wilders literally just grab physics by the collar and headbutts it until it does what they want. Psions reach inside their own mind and pull out what they wish.
This right here. This is beautiful. +1,000,000.
Psion do not need to be sci-fi, metal powers have a role from stone age till the gothic era's with ease. They don't need them, but then ya really don't need any class that bad when ya get down to it. Why more then one arcane caster?
Anyhow humm what would people think if it went a more mystic bent? I always felt psionics could fit rather nicely into an eastern or mid eastern theme. Why do we need to drawl the inspiration for psionics only from western sources? I don't know about you guys but I thinks a more mystic approach might be a good angle to look at psionics from and get away a bit from the new age vibe.
Psion do not need to be sci-fi, metal powers have a role from stone age till the gothic era's with ease. They don't need them, but then ya really don't need any class that bad when ya get down to it. Why more then one arcane caster?
Hey, I'll agree with you here for sure. Psionics isn't an exclusively sci-fi thing. Hell, a lot of fantasy books I've read use what would be called Psionics in 3.5 for their magic system (for example, David Eddings's Belgariad and Mallorean books; the only thing that actually matters to sorcery in that world is the Will. The Word can be any word; it's the Will that actually shapes the magic. Belgarion gets fussed at for using "childish" Words frequently).
And like you said, there's no need for anything more than the generic Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Rogue archetypes. With a handful of feats and some character flavoring, you can make pretty much any of the other classes with just that (there are some exceptions, but do you really need Summoners?).
Guys my character spends his life reading through books and searching for strange scientific formula that allow him to alter the world based on his intelligence, charm others into doing what he desires, and telekinetically move other objects around.
But don't allow psionics, they're way too sci-fi.
hey me and Zurai agreed on something :). I agree there might not be a dire need for some classes does not mean I do not want em however :)
It does get tricky as Cirno points out, they looted everyone else pretty heavy to make the current wizard. So making a mentalist class gets a bit hard without him coming off as an alt wizard.
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psionics (atleast 3.5's version) give me a sense of controll. one of my favorite moments was my group coming accrossed 2 young(?) green dragons, and their mothers corpse.
the group: Dude, DON"T KILL THE BABY DRAGONS
me:don't trip, i got this
Group: DON"T KILL THE BABY DRAGONS!
me: mindblast, augmented with extra points to deal 7d10
DM:Dragons at -8 *rolls* and stable
Me: told you i wouldn't kill it
turns out if i had maximizwd all my rolls the dragon would have been at -20. so i was right on guessing its hp, and knew exactly how much of my power to use.
i prefer being able to "buff" my powers, than to "pull punches" with spells (i.e. lower caster level to not deal overkill)
Partially because, well, vancian can't do a lot. The D&D wizard is sort of it's own creature. No other fictional spellcaster uses the fire and forget system of D&D.
Jack Vance's Dying Earth series, which was the original inspiration for the D&D Wizard.
That said, it's the only one, all the rest use more a psionics or at least spell-point feel.
I absolutely love 3.5 psionics - the system is just great. The only problem with it is that it's not default.
Partially because, well, vancian can't do a lot. The D&D wizard is sort of it's own creature. No other fictional spellcaster uses the fire and forget system of D&D.Jack Vance's Dying Earth series, which was the original inspiration for the D&D Wizard.
That said, it's the only one, all the rest use more a psionics or at least spell-point feel.
I absolutely love 3.5 psionics - the system is just great. The only problem with it is that it's not default.
Well, that was more or less my point. I know the origins of the name "Vancian" after all ;p
Incidentally, Dying Earth was a sci-fi sword and sorcery series. Fie on psionics for being sci-fi indeed.