I just have one thing to say.
Your gaming table decides to create all top rank characters, so they all make wizards. and you start them at say 11th level.
Party of Wizards... meet the CR12 Iron Golem.
Hilarity now ensues.
This is how it would go...
Wizards teleport out (if they weren't forewarned of the Iron Golem via divanation)
Teleport back in
Wizard 1 - transmute rock to mud
Wizard 2 - transmute mud to rock
Hilarity ensues. Plenty of other solutions are possible (wall of force, wizards repeatedly cast disintegrate on ground to put it in a pit, etc.)
Ever since 3.0 wizard has stood alone on top and I don't think that's changed.
I just have one thing to say.
Your gaming table decides to create all top rank characters, so they all make wizards. and you start them at say 11th level.
Party of Wizards... meet the CR12 Iron Golem.
Hilarity now ensues.
Why? Whats so good about an Iron Golem?
Wizards have a lot of spells to deal with it. Most common one being summon monster.
For all the people answering and giving reasons: No one is wrong, everyone has a preference and a play style. For example, I can play a cleric a lot better than I could a wizard, just cause its not the type of character like or generally play.
That being said why dont we try this.
You are in a game already, and a new friend that is moderately experianced is joining the game.
Your four person party already has:
Fighter
Rogue
Cleric
Wizard
Being he/she is bringing in the 5th person. What class would you be excited about him/her showing up with? Average party level is 10
Disclaimer: I guess you can go into detail what kind of Fighter, rogue, cleric, or wizard you have but this is just to provide a back drop. This will eliminate people from saying clerics are better cause you need healer. Or wizards are the bomb you have to have one. Most of the typical rolls are fulfilled. I think this will be a lot more fun to see how people answer.
Hint: there is no right or wrong answer
For all the people answering and giving reasons: No one is wrong, everyone has a preference and a play style. That being said why dont we try this.
You are in a game already, and a new friend that is moderately experianced is joining the game.
Your four person party already has:
Fighter
Rogue
Cleric
WizardBeing he/she is bringing in the 5th person. What class would you be excited about him/her showing up with? Average party level is 10
Disclaimer: I guess you can go into detail what kind of Fighter, rogue, cleric, or wizard you have but this is just to provide a back drop. This will eliminate people from saying clerics are better cause you need healer. Or wizards are the bomb you have to have one. Most of the typical rolls are fulfilled. I think this will be a lot more fun to see how people answer.
Hint: there is no right or wrong answer
Fun question that does put a bit different spin on it. My preferences would be:
Bard - since basic needs covered and nothing "needed", bard has fun combination of unique abilities and jack of all trades versatility to round out the group.Ranger - with a fighter to be the tank, a ranger specialized in ranged attacks (and able to track, etc.) makes a nice complement.
Paladin - gives that extra oomph against the really evil dudes. And a little extra healing and buffing never hurts.
Monk - speed and skills make them a great complementary/flanking fighter and impressive fast scout.
Of course if you are in a wilderness-dominated campaign, answer has to be Druid.
As you said, really no wrong answer since all the basics are covered. I deliberately avoided another X answers, although strong cases can be made for all of those (except maybe the rogue, my experience has been that multiple rogues compete for the spotlight).
You are in a game already, and a new friend that is moderately experianced is joining the game.
Your four person party already has:
Fighter
Rogue
Cleric
WizardBeing he/she is bringing in the 5th person. What class would you be excited about him/her showing up with? Average party level is 10
Any of them, but by personal preference I would use a monk or a bard, as they are very good 5th wheel characters, unless psionics were allowed in which case I would take a psionic character in just to be different.
Glad you're rocking out as an urban druid. It can be done. Just a bit more of a challenge than in a rural setting. You've met that challenge and are to be...My only point is that many of their abilities and spells are specifically designed for the wilderness, and outside that environment they aren't as powerful. That's why I dropped them to the bottom of my list, because the full range of their powers is more setting dependent than other classes.There are not many spells that require plants, other than entangle. You might want to elaborate on this one.Sorry,don't have access to my rulebooks right now, so can't go through point by point and find all the spells and powers that work better in the wilderness than the city or the dungeon, but I am pretty sure that it is more than just a couple.
I can say that whenever one of my players is playing a druid character, they always hate going into the city or on a dungeon delve, as they feel limited. That may just be their lack of imagination as a player, but I doubt it.
As to the animal companions, I agree with you that they can be survivable if played conservatively, as they should be. However, too many players just throw them into melee with the tanks, and they get chopped up pretty quickly, in my experience. YMMV.
I am playing a druid in Council of Thieves, an urban setting, that is how I know. I am currently the MVP, even when we had a paladin in the group. We now have a cleric, the druid is still more useful. The only time I was #2 in overall effectiveness was when the sorcerer was in the group.
Edit: If the companion is dying due to bad tactics that is a fault of the player not the class. To fault the class for that is like saying a sorcerer or wizard is a bad class because a player blows all his/her spells when the battle is well in hand, leaving them useless for the difficult encounters.
I also have a new player in a game I was DM'ing doing a lot of things. She is tactical though.
I have played a barbarian and seen monks in play, I have to say the monk is now better than barbarian. Barbarians have no niche now, and the monks seem to do well in flurries.
I have played a barbarian and seen monks in play, I have to say the monk is now better than barbarian. Barbarians have no niche now, and the monks seem to do well in flurries.
If you are going to raise the monk up then we might need to hear why. This is not a defense for the barbarians. I dont really care for them anymore.
I have played a barbarian and seen monks in play, I have to say the monk is now better than barbarian. Barbarians have no niche now, and the monks seem to do well in flurries.If you are going to raise the monk up then we might need to hear why. This is not a defense for the barbarians. I dont really care for them anymore.
Maybe it is just the way our monk player builds them, but they seem rather extremely good at grappling. So if it can be grappled its over, as they can't seem to mechanically escape his grapple. I will have to ask him how exactly he is making such godly good grapplers.
Maybe it is just the way our monk player builds them, but they seem rather extremely good at grappling. So if it can be grappled its over, as they can't seem to mechanically escape his grapple. I will have to ask him how exactly he is making such godly good grapplers.I have played a barbarian and seen monks in play, I have to say the monk is now better than barbarian. Barbarians have no niche now, and the monks seem to do well in flurries.If you are going to raise the monk up then we might need to hear why. This is not a defense for the barbarians. I dont really care for them anymore.
Ok. It will be interesting to see.
I think the problem is not that the Pathfinder barbarian is weaker, but that it's no longer awesome in comparison with the other combat classes. It used to be the big damage dealer, and now that's the fighter's stick. It still has strength, power, speed and all, it just needs to find it's niche again, and it takes a little extra work to make it happen now.
Ranking is dumb. There is a ton of variables to take into consideration, and each class shines in different scenarios. Not to mention that any individual class would be worse off without others to help them do their stuff. A rogue without someone with whom to flank is rather weak. A fighter with no buffs is so-so. A dedicated caster without some meat between him and the gnarling and gnashing teeth of the bestiary is quickly torn asunder (inb4 "N00B!!11!!! ALL WIZARDS/CLERICS/DRUIDS ARE GODS! ONLY A RETARDED 4 YEAR OLD PLAYS A <insert caster class here> THAT CAN'T DO EVERYTHING BETTER THAN ANYONE!!!11!11!")
The fighter and the rogue in my group are both immensely powerful, because the cleric focuses on buffs, healing and such, the wizard always casts haste and focuses on debilitation, and there is a cavalier of the order of the dragon, meaning bonuses galore. Even at lv7 they have close to +20 to hit on their main attacks, even when power-attacking.
So I would say ranking "party usefulness builds" is a more valid query.
Ranking is dumb. There is a ton of variables to take into consideration, and each class shines in different scenarios.
True, the criteria is not specifically stated. The point is that certain classes are just more powerful, more often. Given most situations, full casters, especially wizards, are just in a league of their own.
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In my experience, the power-level of classes varies wildly based on specific builds and both player and GM play-style, but this is an ordering of how much I like the classes:
1) Witch
2) Wizard
3) Summoner
4) Sorcerer
5) Oracle
6) Druid
7) Alchemist
8) Cleric
9) Inquisitor
10) Ranger
11) Cavalier
12) Rogue
13) Barbarian
14) Monk
15) Fighter
16) Paladin
17) Bard
Top four favourite classes including 3.5 stuff?
1) Duskblade
2) Witch
3) Warlock
4) Wizard
(honourable mention: Hexblade)
Alright Mr. Fishy will give his opinion on the best class.
1. The class that Mr. Fishy is playing.
2. The rest of the party.
3. The party members that don't listen to Mr. Fishy.
Here's Mr. Fishy perspective and a quote,
"What is steel, compared the hand that wields it?"
Classes are carried by the player that wields them. The most powerful class is nothing with a Mighty Player to wield it.
Classes are carried by the player that wields them. The most powerful class is nothing with a Mighty Player to wield it.
A weak class doesn't become a powerful class when a "Mighty Player" wields it.
Wanna bet. Two Words...TIER FISHY!
Weak and powerful are realitive terms. A good player can't make a Commoner shine, but an idiot can run a well made character right into the ground.
Mr. Fishy is a crafty bastard and has done a lot with a little. On the other hand Mr. Fishy has seen players with everything drop the ball and kick the sucker on the recovering.
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Personally, I'd rank the paladin a little higher than most, most enemies players encounter are evil, as such are prone to be hit with the very mighty smite attacks.
I'm currently running a ranged paladin in a party with two rogues, a sorcerer, a fighter, a druid, and an artificer. I do most of the heavy lifting, not in the literal sense because my strength is amongst the lowest, in combat or out of it, the only one surpassing me in terms of raw damage output is the sorcerer, and that's until they run out of spells, which I'm going to run out of arrows long after they run out of spells.
Most of this is because I can actually hit my target, whereas the rogues tends to come up shy the druid or the fighter will spend their time lying on the ground or otherwise incapacitated. The artificer does a lot of damage as well, but he is also prone to running out of spells.
The paladin is tough, they can out last any class if played right, which isn't very difficult, though they tend to produce less damage until they use their smite ability, with the best saves in the game. Even the mighty sorcerer may run out of good spells before killing a paladin. This is entirely dependent on the player though.
Wanna bet. Two Words...TIER FISHY!
Weak and powerful are realitive terms. A good player can't make a Commoner shine, but an idiot can run a well made character right into the ground.
Mr. Fishy is a crafty bastard and has done a lot with a little. On the other hand Mr. Fishy has seen players with everything drop the ball and kick the sucker on the recovering.
Mr. Fishy just won the Thread.
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
PS: I now need Mr. Fishy's Stat Block for my new Mastermind BBEG!
Mr. Fishy's Stat Block would break the internets with it's mightyness. You can go to the Mr. Fishy Fan Club thread to hear tales of Fishyness. All you need know is that Mr. Fishy is a Shameless attention whore. He also speaks in the third person to protect him from his own awesomeness.
Mr. Fishy wrote:
"Mr. Fishy's Stat Block would break the internets with it's mightyness. You can go to the Mr. Fishy Fan Club thread to hear tales of Fishyness. All you need know is that Mr. Fishy is a Shameless attention whore. He also speaks in the third person to protect him from his own awesomeness."
I agree- Mr. Fishy I salute you!!! At least all natural 18's... but that was years ago right!
Mr. Fishy has evolved beyond stats.