I would be interested to see how people rank the power of all the Pathfinder classes from just the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Players Guide Playtest. Before I go any further, let me just say that I think Paizo have done a pretty good job of rebalancing the classes from D&D 3.5. Nonetheless, I still think that some are more powerful than others from a straight game mechanics point of view (in other words, ignoring fluff and flavour).
Lets make a few assumptions. Firstly, it will be for level 10 character classes. Level 1 is not a fair reflection of a class and level 20 is rarely played so level 10 I think is a good balance. Secondly, it will be for a 20 point build as that is not too weak or too overpowering. Thirdly, we will ignore multiclassing altogether. Finally, let's assume that we will be optimising the class as much as possible but only using the core book and the advanced players guide (for instance wizard class would be ranked as a human/elf specialist conjurer as it's probably the best choice).
I will now rank from 1st through to last. Please note that I do not consider myself an expert on all the classes by any stretch of the imagination so feel free to disagree with my rankings and come up with your own if you have some strong opinions.
1. Witch
2. Human Summoner (for the extra feat and skill point)
3. Wizard (specialist conjurer or transmuter elf/human)
4. Druid (big cat as companion)
5. Sorcerer
6. Cleric
7. Ranger (Treatmonk Switch Hitter version)
8. Paladin
9. Inquisitor
10. Fighter
11. Rogue
12. Bard
13. Alchemist
14. Oracle
15. Barbarian
16. Monk
17. Cavalier (far too situational powers to be useful)
Let the debate begin. :)
Define 'power' - it's a tricky one, you see.
For example: A sorcerer is more powerful than a wizard because they get more spells per day, vs a wizard is more powerful than a sorcerer because they can tailor their spell selection to their situation.
Define 'power' - it's a tricky one, you see.
For example: A sorcerer is more powerful than a wizard because they get more spells per day, vs a wizard is more powerful than a sorcerer because they can tailor their spell selection to their situation.
You are right. Defining power can be tricky. I tend to rate versatility ahead of more of the same spells and spell users would therefore be more powerful than melee classes by level 10 generally speaking. I guess you could say the ability to handle as many different adventures and environments with ease that are a challenge rating appropriate to your level. For instance, coping well in an undead crypt as well as coping in a desert environment or fighting off pirates on a ship. I'm looking for both flexibility, power and survivability all rolled into one.
You are right. Defining power can be tricky. I tend to rate versatility ahead of more of the same spells and spell users would therefore be more powerful than melee classes by level 10 generally speaking. I guess you could say the ability to handle as many different adventures and environments with ease that are a challenge rating appropriate to your level. For instance, coping well in an undead crypt as well as coping in a desert environment or fighting off pirates on a ship. I'm looking for both flexibility, power and survivability all rolled into one.Define 'power' - it's a tricky one, you see.
For example: A sorcerer is more powerful than a wizard because they get more spells per day, vs a wizard is more powerful than a sorcerer because they can tailor their spell selection to their situation.
Then it would be ranger or bard, they have flexibility, toughness and can function in most environments. Whatever the situation they can do something, be it close combat, ranged, spells, skills ...
Clerics, monks, and wizards would rank next, all have great flexibility but also blind spots - skills for clerics, spells for monks and physical toughness for wizards.
Then it would be ranger or bard, they have flexibility, toughness and can function in most environments. Whatever the situation they can do something, be it close combat, ranged, spells, skills ...
Clerics, monks, and wizards would rank next, all have great flexibility but also blind spots - skills for clerics, spells for monks and physical toughness for wizards.
Fair enough. Which class would you put in last place?
Power would be the ability to disrupt the game aka destroy the DM's plans with the least amount of effort.
LT: Anyone can take UMD, and a wizard can be ready for any battle, even more so when they know what is coming. Unless the DM has so many battles in one day that your spells are blown, but even then the wizard will have scrolls so running out of spells should not be an issue.
1. Wizard(any)
2. Druid
3. Witch
4. Summoner
5. Cleric
6. Sorcerer
7. Paladin
8. Ranger (Treatmonk Switch Hitter version)
9. Fighter
11. Rogue
12. Bard
13. Barbarian
14. Monk
15. Rest unknown.
*In a lower point buy the sorcerer might top the cleric, but if the cleric can focus on melee combat, and spells then I think it gets the nod. Fighters and Ranger depend on build.
PS: I really only vouch for the first 7 as being accurate.
Power would be the ability to disrupt the game aka destroy the DM's plans with the least amount of effort.
LT: Anyone can take UMD, and a wizard can be ready for any battle, even more so when they know what is coming. Unless the DM has so many battles in one day that your spells are blown, but even then the wizard will have scrolls so running out of spells should not be an issue.
1. Wizard(any)
2. Druid
3. Witch
4. Summoner
5. Cleric
6. Sorcerer
7. Paladin
8. Ranger (Treatmonk Switch Hitter version)
9. Fighter
11. Rogue
12. Bard
13. Barbarian
14. Monk
15. Rest unknown.*In a lower point buy the sorcerer might top the cleric, but if the cleric can focus on melee combat, and spells then I think it gets the nod. Fighters and Ranger depend on build.
PS: I really only vouch for the first 7 as being accurate.
who is the mysterious number 10 ? xD
Without reasoning that list seems really arbitrary, except for the few notable offenders being on top (wizard, druid, witch).
There are a lot of "what the?"s I'm seeing, such as the cavalier being below the fighter. Even though the fighter will be better than the cavalier in a fight (on foot), the cavalier has more skill points, is better at mounted combat, can contribute to diplomatic situations and has more abilities that compliment teamwork. Those factors would make him at least equal, if not better than the fighter.
The oracle in 13 with cleric at 6? What? Why? What does the cleric have over the orcale that places him on the higher spectrum of the list and the oracle near the bottom?
The alchemist and bard are also a lot better than you give them credit for, being able to hold their own in a fight and provide a lot of utility and team boosting abilities and a lot of skill points.
And the summoner number two? Why on earth?
Measuring the classes by power is a lot harder to do in Pathfinder than it was in 3.5, and putting them in order is pretty much impossible. Of course there are some power differences, but there are a lot of factors people don't seem to include.
who is the mysterious number 10 ? xDPower would be the ability to disrupt the game aka destroy the DM's plans with the least amount of effort.
LT: Anyone can take UMD, and a wizard can be ready for any battle, even more so when they know what is coming. Unless the DM has so many battles in one day that your spells are blown, but even then the wizard will have scrolls so running out of spells should not be an issue.
1. Wizard(any)
2. Druid
3. Witch
4. Summoner
5. Cleric
6. Sorcerer
7. Paladin
8. Ranger (Treatmonk Switch Hitter version)
9. Fighter
11. Rogue
12. Bard
13. Barbarian
14. Monk
15. Rest unknown.*In a lower point buy the sorcerer might top the cleric, but if the cleric can focus on melee combat, and spells then I think it gets the nod. Fighters and Ranger depend on build.
PS: I really only vouch for the first 7 as being accurate.
lol, that was a typo, or was it ;)
People are going to disagree on the ratings, I would rank a fighter higher than either a ranger or a paladin.
As for why I would rank a cleric higher than an oracle.
Good Fortitude save, Channel energy, greater versatility on what he can pray for during the day.
Now level 10 gives sorceror and Oracle a chance, at level 9 the wizard and cleric both have level 5 spells while the Oracle and Sorceror only have level 4.
The effectiveness of the paladin vs the fighter depends on the campaign. People focus on the smite, but the mercies are really powerful.
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Define 'power' - it's a tricky one, you see.
For example: A sorcerer is more powerful than a wizard because they get more spells per day, vs a wizard is more powerful than a sorcerer because they can tailor their spell selection to their situation.
I'll go one step further. A sorcerer is more powerful because they can tailor their spell selection ON THE FLY to fit the situation they actually find themselves in, as opposed to the situation that they start the day HOPING they end up facing.
EDIT: There's also actual effectiveness vs theoretical effectiveness. If both sides of a fight are stocked with spellcasters, many of their efforts can be negated by counterspelling. So the battle is ACTUALLY decided by those melee classes that so many of you consider inconsequential.
I'll go one step further. A sorcerer is more powerful because they can tailor their spell selection ON THE FLY to fit the situation they actually find themselves in, as opposed to the situation that they start the day HOPING they end up facing.Define 'power' - it's a tricky one, you see.
For example: A sorcerer is more powerful than a wizard because they get more spells per day, vs a wizard is more powerful than a sorcerer because they can tailor their spell selection to their situation.
If they don't know the spell they cant cast it. A wizard can always keep scrolls of spells that might be needed, but dont want to prep every day. A wizard can also leave slots open. A well made wizard will not be caught in a situation in which he can't contribute. If that is the case it is a player issue, not a class issue.
Edit: Counterspelling is not a good tactic. You have to ready an action to use it IIRC, and if the spell does not match up then you just wasted an action standing around. It is cool in theory, but in practice it sucks.
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If they don't know the spell they cant cast it. A wizard can always keep scrolls of spells that might be needed, but dont want to prep every day. A wizard can also leave slots open. A well made wizard will not be caught in a situation in which he can't contribute. If that is the case it is a player issue, not a class issue.
See, that's where my theory of power and some other poeple's clash. To me, if I say that X is more powerful than Y, that means that X alone is more powerful than Y. Not X with an entire library of scrolls is more powerful than Y.
I compare naked X vs naked Y. No rings of protection. No library of scrolls. True power is within, it doesn't come from relying on items.
If they don't know the spell they cant cast it. A wizard can always keep scrolls of spells that might be needed, but dont want to prep every day. A wizard can also leave slots open. A well made wizard will not be caught in a situation in which he can't contribute. If that is the case it is a player issue, not a class issue.See, that's where my theory of power and some other poeple's clash. To me, if I say that X is more powerful than Y, that means that X alone is more powerful than Y. Not X with an entire library of scrolls is more powerful than Y.
I compare naked X vs naked Y. No rings of protection. No library of scrolls. True power is within, it doesn't come from relying on items.
Power is power no matter where it comes from, and loot is assumed to be counted for the purposes of CR and and combat so it really cant be discounted. I thought the point of the discussion was to see which class normally has the biggest impact in a game under an equally skilled player.
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If they don't know the spell they cant cast it. A wizard can always keep scrolls of spells that might be needed, but dont want to prep every day. A wizard can also leave slots open. A well made wizard will not be caught in a situation in which he can't contribute. If that is the case it is a player issue, not a class issue.See, that's where my theory of power and some other poeple's clash. To me, if I say that X is more powerful than Y, that means that X alone is more powerful than Y. Not X with an entire library of scrolls is more powerful than Y.
I compare naked X vs naked Y. No rings of protection. No library of scrolls. True power is within, it doesn't come from relying on items.
Then monks are the best melee. Fighters, rogues, paladins, barbarians, etc. all need gear much more than gear.
It makes more sense to allow everything, as opposed to limit everything. The system isn't balanced from the start, but most of the default stuff is somewhat play-tested at least.
My proposal for the context.
Which class normally has the biggest impact in a game under an equally skilled player.
Well .. given very general parameters of "power" here, I can only give a very general breakdown assessment.
#1 = Primary Casters {wiz, sorc, cleric, etc}
#2 = Secondary Casters {bards & co}
#3 = Everyone Else {melee's of various flavors}
#4 = Barbarians (until "rage on/rage off" at level 17+)
#5 = Monks
Yup ... that's where I about see things.
My proposal for the context.
Which class normally has the biggest impact in a game under an equally skilled player.
Because that's easy to measure.
Because that's easy to measure.My proposal for the context.
Which class normally has the biggest impact in a game under an equally skilled player.
It is actually. A DM knows which class he has to prepare for the most and/or wrecks the most encounters(combat or social). If the DM can ignore a class, then it is not that powerful.
Well .. given very general parameters of "power" here, I can only give a very general breakdown assessment.
#1 = Primary Casters {wiz, sorc, cleric, etc}
#2 = Secondary Casters {bards & co}
#3 = Everyone Else {melee's of various flavors}
#4 = Barbarians (until "rage on/rage off" at level 17+)
#5 = Monks
Yup ... that's where I about see things.
I would have to agree with this as a general statement.
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I mean, what level is also an important question? I put Paladin at the top for any levels before 10; consistant damage dealing + free action heals + very high saves. I know many have man-love for Wizes, but I've never experienced them as the dominant force in low-to-mid... lack of staying power.
I put bard above fighter and both nicely above the switch-hit ranger (who, I am sorry to say, is a poor substitue for a switch-hit fighter). I actually rank rogue above ranger too... primarily in campaigns where trapsense is needed.
I may have man-love for pallys, but I place them above clerics. They really dish out damage well, and take it even better.
Do other people have actual experience seeing the casters feel they are "dominating" campaigns early-to-mid? I'll admit I have never played past 15; but I haven't seen this reality that everyone seems to talk about in low-to-mid campaigns. My current campaign will play to 20, and we are just starting to move to highs, so guess we'll see (perfect sample, half caster half not party).
I mean, what level is also an important question? I put Paladin at the top for any levels before 10; consistant damage dealing + free action heals + very high saves. I know many have man-love for Wizes, but I've never experienced them as the dominant force in low-to-mid... lack of staying power.
I put bard above fighter and both nicely above the switch-hit ranger (who, I am sorry to say, is a poor substitue for a switch-hit fighter). I actually rank rogue above ranger too... primarily in campaigns where trapsense is needed.
I may have man-love for pallys, but I place them above clerics. They really dish out damage well, and take it even better.
Do other people have actual experience seeing the casters feel they are "dominating" campaigns early-to-mid? I'll admit I have never played past 15; but I haven't seen this reality that everyone seems to talk about in low-to-mid campaigns. My current campaign will play to 20, and we are just starting to move to highs, so guess we'll see (perfect sample, half caster half not party).
The cleric's healing is not to be underestimated. The paladin wont even be missed if you have a fighter. Of course the DM has a big affect on this also.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Here are my rankings:
1. Alchemist
2. Bard
3. Barbarian
4. Cavalier
5. Cleric
6. Druid
7. Fighter
8. Inquisitor
9. Monk
10. Oracle
11. Paladin
12. Ranger
13. Rogue
14. Sorcerer
15. Summoner
16. Witch
17. Wizard
Quasi-Alphabetical order is our ranking criteria, right?
Edit: Mha ha! As you can see by the word "quasi," which was in my original post and most certainly not added after the fact, I always intended to have bard before barbarian.
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A wizard can always keep scrolls of spells that might be needed, but dont want to prep every day.So can a Sorcerer. The diffference being that a Sorcerer can keep scrolls of cleric spells, druid spells, etc.
Exactly. It would be like arguing that Fighter A is better than Fighter B because Fighter A has the potential to wield a magical sword. So does Fighter B.
People are going to disagree on the ratings, I would rank a fighter higher than either a ranger or a paladin.
+1
Fighters are Bad@$$3$! In fact...
1) Fighter
2) Sorcerer
3) Wizard
4) Cleric
5) Rogue (more monsters to sneak attack now)
6) Paladin
7) Monk
8) Ranger
9) Barbarian
10) Druid
11) Bard
To me, power = combat effectiveness. My ranking is based first and foremost on damage (First average per round, then max potential), then on defensiveness. When talking about "power", I put only a little consideration into skill points or versatility. Also, I have no experience with the new classes, so I left them off my list.
Well, we can only speculate on what the final APG classes will look like, so I wouldn't wrack my brain trying to rank them yet.
I would say that things are so situational, and power is such a broad term, that you can really only generally rank broad categories.
At lower levels, it is tough to beat the full BAB classes. I think things get pretty equal around the middle levels, with skill based classes having their relative highpoint. Once you get to high level play, full casters reign supreme. I think this is a long tradition of class inequality in AD&D, that made the game "totally broken", and has been getting fixed in every edition ever since.
Finally I would say it depends on the other characters in the group. A monk will be more powerful with a helpful caster in the party, a paladin will be pretty redundant if there is a good cleric in the party.
Again, all of this is so general as to be almost moot. Even the much reviled monk, barbarian, and ranger can really shine in the right campaign.
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I respect clerical healing more than most. With that said, the Pally can emulate the area effect healing; and other classes can out-of-combat heal well. If you have a witch the cleric isn't really missed either. Rarely can you "keep up" with the monsters channeling.
Fighters and Pallys serve the same general role... you can "not miss" the Pally with a good fighter. But pallys have no save weakness; not being removed from combat is pretty critical for the "Tank", and incidentally why I feel Dwarves make some of the best fighters as Mid-levels.
Sorcs are simply a level behind on effects and not as diverse; scrolls of non-1st spells. get expensive quickly. Also, Sorc specialization don't keep up with Wiz specializations. I do prefer them simply because I like to play high-Cha characters.
But overall, up until 10, I'd probably go:
1) Pallly
2) Druid
3) Witch
4) Wizard
5) Cleric
6) Summoner
7) Fighter
8) Bard
9) Sorcerer
10) Rogue (only because some campaigns NEED trapsense).
and the rest are generally "chaff"; they have strictly better varia
Fair enough. Which class would you put in last place?Then it would be ranger or bard, they have flexibility, toughness and can function in most environments. Whatever the situation they can do something, be it close combat, ranged, spells, skills ...
Clerics, monks, and wizards would rank next, all have great flexibility but also blind spots - skills for clerics, spells for monks and physical toughness for wizards.
Ranked in terms of versatility and all-round strength:
1st tier: Ranger, Bard.
2nd Tier: Cleric, monk, wizard, druid.
3rd tier: Paladin, Rogue, Barbarian, sorcerer, fighter.
One point I will make is that the classes with less flexibility very often have better specialisation. The fighter, for example, does one thing, but he does it very well.
If they don't know the spell they cant cast it. A wizard can always keep scrolls of spells that might be needed, but dont want to prep every day.
Something I see people forgetting when I see this comment is that the Sorcerer shares the arcane spell list with the Wizard. Both can cast any spell on their list from a scroll.
A sorcerer just has to pay more to get them. Well, pay more and have to find a place selling them. A wizard needs time though.
Honestly, it's pretty common practice for my sorcerers to have scrolls in useful, but highly situational spells.
So the wizard will likely have more scrolls on hand (due to lower cost), but he had to scribe that spell first (which factors into his cost).
In the end, the sorcerer has more spells to cast, and a larger selection of spells to draw from without preparation. He can't spend a few minutes to get "just about any spell" ready.
I'd probably put the sorcerer and wizard at equal points, except that he has a spell level delay. That hurts the sorcerer more than anything else (and I feel is completely unnecessary).
I'd probably put the sorcerer and wizard at equal points, except that he has a spell level delay. That hurts the sorcerer more than anything else (and I feel is completely unnecessary).
Absolutely. If there's one thing I've been disappointed about with pathfinder it's that they didn't fix this. I mean...the sorcerer is the one that wields magic naturally, because it's a part of who they are...but the bookworm that has to force magic to work with bat poo and newt eyes somehow gets spells faster? o_O The mind, she boggles!
It is actually. A DM knows which class he has to prepare for the most and/or wrecks the most encounters(combat or social). If the DM can ignore a class, then it is not that powerful.Because that's easy to measure.My proposal for the context.
Which class normally has the biggest impact in a game under an equally skilled player.
I did struggle to give the thread proper context. I like wraithstrike's proposal for context.
How about we frame it like the old Tier system? If that's the case, there's not a whole lot of change for the classes from before (I'm not overly familiar with the Pathfinder new classes, so I'll leave that up to others to fill in), but the little there is are big moves:
Wizard, Cleric, Druid
Derp.
Tier II
Sorcerer (face it, it takes more work to rule the system for them than it does for Wizards, since they have to rely on a steady supply of scrolls from an outside source to cover what a Wizard can cover. They are, however, closer than they used to be thanks to Pathfinder)
Tier III
Fighter, Paladin, Bard
Fighters and Paladins are the "WHAT THE EFFING EFF?!" moment here with their Rocky-like comebacks (I consider 3rd/3.5 to be like the beginning of Rocky III for them), but Fighters really are the kings of general fighting and damage dealing non-magically, and the Paladin just flat out kills evil dead. They are the best at killing evil until they die from it, especially if that evil is also "Super Evil", such as outsiders. Paladins beat around demons and devils like they're their rented mules. Both, however, are of often limited use outside of that. I'd also like to note that the ability of the Cleric and Druid to do their jobs only better without throwing things other than buffs and wildshape around has been curtailed, which certainly helps their ratings.
Bards are just all around fun.
Tier IV
Rogue, Barbarian, Ranger, Monk
Rogue's are at the top of the Tier, currently, IMO, since they're flat out the best at disabling traps. Monk is up, though still a little on the low side, to me, thanks to MAD and the still present near random grab bag of abilities. Keep in mind that Tier 4 isn't that bad a place to be for a class. Tier 4 means you either can do a bunch of things well with no particular focus (everybody wave to the Ranger), or there is someone better than you at your special calling even though you're no slouch yourself (that means you, Barbarian and Monk). While Rogues are the best at disarming traps and have a boat-load of skills, higher Tier classes have ways to circumvent the traps wholesale and the Bard has a similar skill set and is often a much better party face platform. Basically, Rogues are within spitting distance of Tier 3, but barely pull up short.
All in all, every class is useful, though sometimes they need to work at it (Monks need careful building and love to be effective).
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I would be interested to see how people rank the power of all the Pathfinder classes from just the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Players Guide Playtest. Before I go any further, let me just say that I think Paizo have done a pretty good job of rebalancing the classes from D&D 3.5. Nonetheless, I still think that some are more powerful than others from a straight game mechanics point of view (in other words, ignoring fluff and flavour).
Lets make a few assumptions. Firstly, it will be for level 10 character classes. Level 1 is not a fair reflection of a class and level 20 is rarely played so level 10 I think is a good balance. Secondly, it will be for a 20 point build as that is not too weak or too overpowering. Thirdly, we will ignore multiclassing altogether. Finally, let's assume that we will be optimising the class as much as possible but only using the core book and the advanced players guide (for instance wizard class would be ranked as a human/elf specialist conjurer as it's probably the best choice).
I will now rank from 1st through to last. Please note that I do not consider myself an expert on all the classes by any stretch of the imagination so feel free to disagree with my rankings and come up with your own if you have some strong opinions.
1. Witch
2. Human Summoner (for the extra feat and skill point)
3. Wizard (specialist conjurer or transmuter elf/human)
4. Druid (big cat as companion)
5. Sorcerer
6. Cleric
7. Ranger (Treatmonk Switch Hitter version)
8. Paladin
9. Inquisitor
10. Fighter
11. Rogue
12. Bard
13. Alchemist
14. Oracle
15. Barbarian
16. Monk
17. Cavalier (far too situational powers to be useful)Let the debate begin. :)
As another poster wrote, some context is required.
Your party consists of the top 4 classes on your list. In the OP's case, Witch, Human Summoner, Wizard and Druid.
Scenario 1) Assume each character is level 1 and standing at the base of a giant cliff. The magical egg they need is in a nest 300 feet above them. The egg is protected by two flying hyenas (hyenas from the Bestiary, except with 'flight 50, average)'.
Scenario 2) The characters are all level 3. A grieving, pious (LG, worships Abadar) widow bears a shameful secret about her dead husband. It's crucial to the progress of the story that she reveal it. The secret adds a +15 to the Diplomacy DC. She's Indifferent to Unfriendly depending on how civilized and like-minded she thinks the PCs are.
Scenario 3) The characters are all level 6. They must retrieve a 700lb statue from a subterranean medusa's lair and deliver it to a local temple for de-petrification. The statue must remain unharmed.
Scenario 4) The characters are level 9. They come across a vampire (Bestiary, CR 9) and 5 frost wights terrorizing a village built atop a permanently frozen lake. The ice beneath the inn, the trapper's guild and three homes has melted and cracked due to the vampire's fire spells. 12 people are in immediate peril of sinking into the lake. Assume 15% of the days combat spells and 15% of the potion/item resources have already been used/cast.
Scenario 5) The characters are level 12. They're having a victory feast in the longhouse of their beloved patron, Thane Fastergabble, when the back wall is suddenly ripped away and the the Thane is snatched in the coils of a crag linnorm! Assume 30% of the days combat spells and 30% of the potion/item resources have already been used/cast.
Given these challenges, do your rankings still hold?
;)
This. Is my first time gming and the apl is about 3-4.
One particular class paring in our group dominates fight dps... Rogue + Monk
Between the monk, tripping, disarming, grappling ( moving grappled enemy to set up flanks or pinning for -ac) and their acrobatics to set up flanks, it's dps central.
The barb and sorc cant keep up, nor could the rogue if it wasn't for the monk, and the monk on his own is just "flurry of fail" :p
One could ask to have a thread, "let's rank the best 4 man teams" :P
We just added a Druid who took inquisitor as lv 2, and lost our fighter so i might have an update come Friday
So from my own price of immortality experience for solo only
Rogue,
Sorc
Barb
Monk
Add in teamwork and monk + rogue is great
If this turns into another tier war, SOMEBODY COME GET MR.FISHY!!!
The classes are to fairly balanced, casters need time to prepare, grunts need to be close. But no one is top of the list in every situation. Any class can be powerful if played with enough Moxy and skill. Tier Fishy is a state of being.
Scenario 1) Assume each character is level 1 and standing at the base of a giant cliff. The magical egg they need is in a nest 300 feet...
Scenario 2) The characters are all level 3. A grieving, pious (LG, worships Abadar) widow bears a shameful secret about her dead husband. It's crucial to the progress of the story that she reveal it. The secret adds a +15 to the Diplomacy DC. She's Indifferent to Unfriendly depending on how civilized and like-minded she thinks the PCs are.
Scenario 3) The characters are all level 6. They must retrieve a 700lb statue from a subterranean medusa's lair and deliver it to a local temple for de-petrification. The statue must remain unharmed.
Scenario 4) The characters are level 9. They come across a vampire (Bestiary, CR 9) and 5 frost wights terrorizing a village built atop a permanently frozen lake. The ice beneath the inn, the trapper's guild and three homes has melted and cracked due to the vampire's fire spells. 12 people are in immediate peril of sinking into the lake. Assume 15% of the days combat spells and 15% of the potion/item resources have already been used/cast.
Scenario 5) The characters are level 12. They're having a victory feast in the longhouse of their beloved patron, Thane Fastergabble, when the back wall is suddenly ripped away and the the Thane is snatched in the coils of a crag linnorm! Assume 30% of the days combat spells and 30% of the potion/item resources have already been used/cast.
The only thing I can comment on is that your scenario write-ups are original and interesting. Have you considered a career in writing modules? :)
If this turns into another tier war, SOMEBODY COME GET MR.FISHY!!!
The classes are to fairly balanced, casters need time to prepare, grunts need to be close. But no one is top of the list in every situation. Any class can be powerful if played with enough Moxy and skill. Tier Fishy is a state of being.
No need for diplomacy in this thread MR.FISHY. Stop sitting on the fence and pick your best and worst class. ;)
Ranked in terms of versatility and all-round strength:
1st tier: Ranger, Bard.
2nd Tier: Cleric, monk, wizard, druid.
3rd tier: Paladin, Rogue, Barbarian, sorcerer, fighter.
One point I will make is that the classes with less flexibility very often have better specialisation. The fighter, for example, does one thing, but he does it very well.
I'd forgotten about the Tiers. Please rank the new classes in your tiers as well please.