When they first came out they could wear armor, plus any magical item. Even a fighter can get up to 60 if he focuses on it. On top of that the eidolon has natural armor, there is the feat for improving that, and it is possible to boost it more by spending evolution points.
Highest Fighter AC within Core.
10 (base)
+9 Shield (+5 shield & Shield Focus + Greater Shield Focus)
+5 Deflection (+5 ring)
+5 Natural (+5 amulet)
+14 Armor (+5 full plate)
+5 Dex (20 Dex)
+1 Insight (Dusty Rose Ioun Stone)
54 Total.
I'm assuming if you're talking about 60 you're including nonsense like items that grant +5 insight, +5 luck, +5 sacred, +5 competence (ect). If that's the case I don't think we have anything else to talk about, because once you start allowing anything but Deflection, Natural, and Resistance bonuses to things (and the occasional +1 or +2 luck/insight from various specific items) the entire system goes to hell.
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Highest Fighter AC within Core.
10 (base)
+9 Shield (+5 shield & Shield Focus + Greater Shield Focus)
+5 Deflection (+5 ring)
+5 Natural (+5 amulet)
+14 Armor (+5 full plate)
+5 Dex (20 Dex)
+1 Insight (Dusty Rose Ioun Stone)54 Total.
Add two for a tower shield (I assume you're using a heavy shield) and an additional point for having dodge. That nets you a 57. Pick up combat expertise (which I believe (don't have the rules immediately on-hand) will net you an extra +6 dodge bonus to AC at BAB +20) and you can hit 63.
Assuming a heavy shield and no dodge, that's still a 60.
Highest Fighter AC within Core.
10 (base)
+9 Shield (+5 shield & Shield Focus + Greater Shield Focus)
+5 Deflection (+5 ring)
+5 Natural (+5 amulet)
+14 Armor (+5 full plate)
+5 Dex (20 Dex)
+1 Insight (Dusty Rose Ioun Stone)54 Total.
Add two for a tower shield (I assume you're using a heavy shield) and an additional point for having dodge. That nets you a 57. Pick up combat expertise (which I believe (don't have the rules immediately on-hand) will net you an extra +6 dodge bonus to AC at BAB +20) and you can hit 63.
Assuming a heavy shield and no dodge, that's still a 60.
he also forgot combat expertise and defending weapons.
Defending Shield Spikes +5 on that shield, yep, standard Uber Shield.
Think you missed the Dex bonus. Mithril Full plate maxes out at 24 Dex (+7 AC) (+1 Dex, +2 for Mithril, +4 For class)
I believe you can also get some luck bonuses from cast spells (clerical)
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Go just a little outside Pathfinder core:
Add in an Augment Gem of Missile Deflection for +5 against ranged attacks.
What's that psionic effect that grants you AC against Touch Attacks? Energized? Enfused?
And of course, Shield Ward to add your shield against all touch attacks, manuvers, and reflex saves.
==Aelryinth
he also forgot combat expertise and defending weapons.Got combat expertise in there; neglected the defending weapon, though. So, another five points to AC. Your offense will suffer, but non-touch attacks are going to be nigh useless against you.
There is also the dodge feat.
PS: There has to be an item that gives a luck bonus so it can hit 60.
When they first came out they could wear armor, plus any magical item. Even a fighter can get up to 60 if he focuses on it. On top of that the eidolon has natural armor, there is the feat for improving that, and it is possible to boost it more by spending evolution points.Highest Fighter AC within Core.
10 (base)
+9 Shield (+5 shield & Shield Focus + Greater Shield Focus)
+5 Deflection (+5 ring)
+5 Natural (+5 amulet)
+14 Armor (+5 full plate)
+5 Dex (20 Dex)
+1 Insight (Dusty Rose Ioun Stone)54 Total.
I'm assuming if you're talking about 60 you're including nonsense like items that grant +5 insight, +5 luck, +5 sacred, +5 competence (ect). If that's the case I don't think we have anything else to talk about, because once you start allowing anything but Deflection, Natural, and Resistance bonuses to things (and the occasional +1 or +2 luck/insight from various specific items) the entire system goes to hell.
You see no cheese needed.
Well he gets summon monster 9 as a spell like ability usable Cha Mod + 3 times per day at level 18... so I think he will be spamming them.
I don't know if this has been mentioned but once the Summoner hits 12th level he can give his Eidolon Limited Wish 3 times per day as spell like abilities.
And full Wish 3 times a day at 18th level.I hope that's been errata'd.
I understand that everyone has a different opinion on what a summoner should concentrate on his eidolon vs. summoning monsters. I actually think its fine that he could do both.
And, the summoner never had the versatility of the full caster classes. Even in his first incarnation he was right behind the primary spell-castes in raw power and potential, powerful yes but not even close to the cheesiness that a well played wizard could do.
His current incarnation seems just about right, he actually seems well balanced. The class can still be powergamed, but that is the problem with individual builds not the summoner himself. The nerf that was suggested kills a lot of potential the class had, I personally feel it makes the class as a whole about as powerful as a monk, which is to say weak.
My suggestion is if Jason and others feel the class needed this to balance it, the class needs something else to help make up for it.
Well he gets summon monster 9 as a spell like ability usable Cha Mod + 3 times per day at level 18... so I think he will be spamming them.I don't know if this has been mentioned but once the Summoner hits 12th level he can give his Eidolon Limited Wish 3 times per day as spell like abilities.
And full Wish 3 times a day at 18th level.I hope that's been errata'd.
Why? After the huge resource investments such a trick requires (in evolution points), after you take into account the huge Pathfinder nerfs to the wish spells, and after you realize you can only get this trick at really high levels where there are better tricks anyways, then you just mist also realize that your one trick pony of a build isn't so broken...or even great.
When they first came out they could wear armor, plus any magical item. Even a fighter can get up to 60 if he focuses on it. On top of that the eidolon has natural armor, there is the feat for improving that, and it is possible to boost it more by spending evolution points.
True, but that was when they first came out. Since then, the only problem I see with them is the Size Evolution needs a Nerf, Pounce needs a level req, and there could be a clause on limbs evolution on getting special permission from you DM for more than one. As most people have commented, The Eidolon is a bit of a glass cannon. If you tailor him to give him survivablity its dmg will (probably) drop below a fighters.
On a side note: If you have evolution for Bite, Claws, and Slam, They all have primary attacks in the discription but I was under the assumption that you could have only one. If you got another you had to pick which was your primary attack. If they can all act as Primary attacks at the same time that might need to be addressed too.
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Ok, so if I'm playing a Summoner using the 4d6 drop the lowest reroll ones rule, how do i increase the stats of my eidolon to keep it up to par? Do I just average out the party's points and adjust it's stats appropriately?
Hah! Now that's a good question. Maybe if I paid more attention in statistics I could give you an easy answer. I would probably bump one stat by +2 and one by +1 to start but I haven't done the maths.
Size bumps are at 6 and 11th respectively. Neither is game breaking at their levels. Huge can just get ruined by a simple 5' hallway in a dungeon crawl. Pounce you need the sub optimal quad for.When they first came out they could wear armor, plus any magical item. Even a fighter can get up to 60 if he focuses on it. On top of that the eidolon has natural armor, there is the feat for improving that, and it is possible to boost it more by spending evolution points.True, but that was when they first came out. Since then, the only problem I see with them is the Size Evolution needs a Nerf, Pounce needs a level req, and there could be a clause on limbs evolution on getting special permission from you DM for more than one. As most people have commented, The Eidolon is a bit of a glass cannon. If you tailor him to give him survivablity its dmg will (probably) drop below a fighters.
On a side note: If you have evolution for Bite, Claws, and Slam, They all have primary attacks in the discription but I was under the assumption that you could have only one. If you got another you had to pick which was your primary attack. If they can all act as Primary attacks at the same time that might need to be addressed too.
Even being large can be an issue. My tiger is large in Cot, but I keep forgetting to look for a spell to drop it down to a smaller size until its time to fight something dangerous.
Why? After the huge resource investments such a trick requires (in evolution points), after you take into account the huge Pathfinder nerfs to the wish spells, and after you realize you can only get this trick at really high levels where there are better tricks anyways, then you just mist also realize that your one trick pony of a build isn't so broken...or even great.
Casting any 6th level wizards spell or the level non wizard spell as needed 3 times a day isn't powerful?
Or coming up with any equivalent effect?And this is for free mind you. No 1,500 gp cost involved.
Then you get to 18th level, where it's any 8th level sor/wiz or any 7th level non-sor/wiz for free.
I'd consider that pretty powerful.
To be honest I'm tempted to play one just so I can make a 'genie' eidolon and sell wishes...
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Sure it's powerful but it costs so many evolution points and you have to have boost charisma so much that it's really not very impressive at the level you get it. Yes you have a nice, very flexible power you can use 3 times a day, but you aren't very good at anything else. You've burned almost half your evolution points and a bunch of your ability score increases. You are as powerful as an eidolon 2/3 your level except you can do this one really cool thing 3 times a day.
Sure it's powerful but it costs so many evolution points and you have to have boost charisma so much that it's really not very impressive at the level you get it. Yes you have a nice, very flexible power you can use 3 times a day, but you aren't very good at anything else. You've burned almost half your evolution points and a bunch of your ability score increases. You are as powerful as an eidolon 2/3 your level except you can do this one really cool thing 3 times a day.
And still have all the other spells/abilities.
I'd play this character to use his Summon Monsters and buffs to party members more than the eidolon.Keeping the eidolon more as a scout/general helper until the special abilities are needed.
I see the Summoner as more a support class than a front line specialist.
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While I don't disagree with your assertions, I would contest that you would have to be a fellow Antipodean to understand an obscure reference to Skippy. But now I'm curious. I wonder what her stat block and abilities would look like?
I'm English, and they played it on TV when I was a kid in the 70s.
As for abilities, there's certainly evidence of the life link, right there, for Skippy to be able to find suicidal Timmy down all those wells...
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[re raising Int...] It's not so much the extra tricks, but the fact that raising the Int to 3 is taken by most to mean the creature can understand language, thus negating, or reducing, the need for it to learn tricks at all.
You are missing the point. Honestly I don't think I have seen a single animal companion with a rank in linguistics yet. Regardless I could see some reasoning behind it. But I could not condone putting an attribute bump to that purpose. If getting to 3 int is important, clearly it is in your game, buy your dog/horse/dolphin a headband of int. Throwing away untyped bonus that could be applied to your most important stats is just foolish when it could be achieved via another bonus.
That's another way, true, but due to the fact the summoner and eidolon have only one set of body slots between them, you may want to keep that headband slot free for a Cha boost.
Or boost the eidolon's Cha, so it can UMD...
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Well, there are wands and scrolls.
And a summoner cannot use scrolls of all summon spells because some are not even on his/her spell list.
We (or at least I) were talking about Summon I to VI, which are on his list.
I agree that few Summoners would learn many (if at all), but they still need to be on the list as potentials, so that they can use scrolls and wands that they find.
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Well, there are wands and scrolls.And a summoner cannot use scrolls of all summon spells because some are not even on his/her spell list.We (or at least I) were talking about Summon I to VI, which are on his list.
I agree that few Summoners would learn many (if at all), but they still need to be on the list as potentials, so that they can use scrolls and wands that they find.
I'm probably going to house rule the first version of the Summon Monster spells where they add SM spells to their list at the same character level as the wizard.
I'm probably going to house rule the first version of the Summon Monster spells where they add SM spells to their list at the same character level as the wizard.
I like it!
Stuff
Also you could leave them as they are and change their summoning SLA to a full round action.
As long as the eidolon remains customizable and doesn't take a huge cut in power I think the Summoner class should be enjoyable to play even with the announced change. Maybe they'll improve his spellcasting a bit. Healing for the eidolon would also be a big boost. Customizing the eidolon is really the draw of the class for me though.
My only real gripe is that maybe the eidolon should get max HP at 1st level like a PC does. 2HD like an animal companion (along with a steadier HD progression) would work well too. Having 6 HP at 1st level makes it pretty tough to survive, especially since many parties are reluctant to heal pets. Of course you still have the SLA summons, and the minute per level duration (assuming it is kept) will still be a nice boost at low levels.