There have been some good names and some outright silly or inappropriate ones. Alot of folks need to use the name they plan to post in this sentence
"I want to play a _________" and see how it sounds
then ask yourself
does the names hint at fighter/mage?
Does it at lest hint at fighter or wizard?
Is it two words mashed together?
is it parts of two words thrown together?
And very important is this word a word we may want to use for a broad term{mystic} and will using it for a class name robs us of a more common and useful term?
And lastly is this name/term a title paizo has used before or one that might be best used without a class.
many names here have violated Eric's rules or the things I have listed above
I do think the best names so far are armiger and myrmidon, both are unused and carry a hint of martial feel to them.
Sensei: "What is the way of the Stabacadabra?"
Mole Cricket: "Scorching ray! Scorching ray! Close! Stab! Stab! DEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!"
Sensei: "Gooooood, Mole Cricket."
I like the sound/concept of a Wyrdling.
My own suggestion is Armature.
If you paste "define: armature" into google, you get all kinds of relevant and totally obscure meanings. I think it is unrelated enough to not worry about stepping on anyone's intellectual property, but still has the right connotations.
Plus it is a nice sounding, simple word.
armature looks to much like amateur which brings it's on set of meaning with it, just a thought and do we really need another class name so say misspelled to make another word :)
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I spent fifteen minutes typing up a response, hit post... and my browser screwed up and lost the whole thing. So here is a brief paraphrased version:
I do not think there exists a perfect word in English for such a concept, or it would have already been used in one of the countless incarnations already published. In order to choose a next best thing one must choose the criteria. In addition to the rules set out by Mr. Mona in the OP, I would propose that the name be a word that a non-gamer would associate with a spellcaster. Why the focus on the spellcasting instead of the fighting ability? Take the following example:
Say you were playing a game with someone who was totally unfamiliar with fantasy roleplaying games. If you hand this person a character and tell him it is a Warlock, he will automatically know that the character is a spellcaster, and if the character also happens to know how to use a sword that probably will not be a big surprise. Spellcasters not knowing what end of a sword to hold is kind of a trope started by D&D anyway; Gandalf used a sword after all. Give said person a character called a Myrmidon and expect them to realize that this character can fling fireballs, however, and I think they might soon be saying "How was I supposed to know that?"
In that light my top three choices are:
Athame - A weapon used to ritualistically cast magic? Sounds like a good representation of the character's dual nature. Two problems though: the word normally refers to an object, rather than a person, which is not a problem in and of itself, but no other class name does this so it might stick out; and the fact that the word is so obscure it might as well be a made-up word as far as most people are concerned.
Magus - Originally a Zoroastrian priest, but I believe the word is far enough removed at this point that most people will just consider it another word for Wizard or Sorcerer. Probably the strongest choice overall, as most laypeople will recognize the word as a spellcaster, and it has not been used overmuch in other games so the average gamer will not have strong preconceived notions in association with it.
Warlock - Good for all the reasons Magus is good, but apparently some people cannot hear the word without thinking eldritch blast. Nevermind all the other times it has been used, from WoW, to Harry Potter, to Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
In conclusion, I am still not sold that such a class is even necessary, as I believe a variant Bard would fill the niche just fine, but if Paizo does decide to make it I think they should call it by one of these three names.
I'm going to let it percolate a bit longer, but I'm definitely leaning toward one choice over the others.
I'm guessing I will make the final decision some time before Paizo Con...
That just screams "we are making an announcement at Paizo Con about new base classes in 2011"
*cough* Armature
That name is a joke...
Dragoon is also good, but not better than Warder or Tempest (Which also happens to ba a PrC by WotC) IMO
Armiger is already used in Iron heroes and quite fittingly, because it's just man-at-arms with no mystic connection.
Say you were playing a game with someone who was totally unfamiliar with fantasy roleplaying games. If you hand this person a character and tell him it is a Warlock, he will automatically know that the character is a spellcaster, and if the character also happens to know how to use a sword that probably will not be a big surprise. Spellcasters not knowing what end of a sword to hold is kind of a trope started by D&D anyway; Gandalf used a sword after all. Give said person a character called a Myrmidon and expect them to realize that this character can fling fireballs, however, and I think they might soon be saying "How was I supposed to know that?"
I still get new players ask me "what's a paladin?" :)
There have been some good names and some outright silly or inappropriate ones. Alot of folks need to use the name they plan to post in this sentence
"I want to play a _________" and see how it soundsthen ask yourself
does the names hint at fighter/mage?
Does it at lest hint at fighter or wizard?
Is it two words mashed together?
is it parts of two words thrown together?And very important is this word a word we may want to use for a broad term{mystic} and will using it for a class name robs us of a more common and useful term?
And lastly is this name/term a title paizo has used before or one that might be best used without a class.
many names here have violated Eric's rules or the things I have listed above
I do think the best names so far are armiger and myrmidon, both are unused and carry a hint of martial feel to them.
A very good post.
In regards to Armiger and Myrmidon --I am assuming you mean that they are unused in Pathfinder RPG-- as they are already in use as classes in Iron Heroes (huh, when did it change from Malhavoc to Fiery Dragon?)
never played iron heroes or even heard of it till 5 years after it was gone, same with most folks I game with. I have the feeling we are not alone in never having heard of it and even among those that know it the game simply did not have a large enough player base to make the names well known outside of the folks playing it.
The names are not in current use or are they well known to people at large and they do not carry baggage to most people. There really is no major confusion over the words. Unlike say the warlock.
Glade ya liked the post.
any word that implies a single weapon is to be avoided. Spellsword just looks funny if you use a mace. We want something generic and meaningful.
remember, they are looking for a single word - Fighter, theif, duellist, paladin. Not paladinstar, fightermage, shadowtheif, etc.
So, you've only one word to work with. no compound words bundlded together, i.e. a portmanteau.
ATHAME is recognizable and fits the theme, although it does imply a dagger or blade.
WARLOCK is generic but, eh, overused.
WYRD is short and sweet.
PEER fits this in all sorts of ways, but is a bit pretentious. Then again, so is a f/mu class.
ENRUNED or RUNED would also go great with this. A blade-using mage who wears his spellbook on runes he carves into his soul...yeah, that would go over fairly well.
PEER implies noble origins...which, given the amount of training, is pretty sensible. ENRUNED just implies willingness to endure the process. One is coming at it from the intelligentsia/elite side, the other the martial discipline/toughness side.
===Aelryinth
I know by your posts Aelryinth you like PEER alot, but that does kill a often used word from ever being used again. And could cause confusion if someone messes saying peer somewhere and then ya get the ideal and questions about did they mean peers like his equals or coworkers or fellow nobles or the PEER class.
That alone puts it out of the running I think. Runed and enruned have the same issues. You really do not want to kill off words you could use often.
Armiger is already used in Iron heroes and quite fittingly, because it's just man-at-arms with no mystic connection.
Thanks for the heads-up; until you mentioned it, I had no idea that both Armiger and Myrmidon were already taken (as Sagawork Studios also pointed out just after you did).
FWIW, I think it's safe to say that any variation of a warrior-type name (armiger, myrmidon, etc) has likely been used at some point since roleplaying games have been around.
I also think it's desirable that whatever name is used, it somehow can be tied to the history of the game that Pathfinder draws from, even if the name hasn't technically been used before.
*cough* Armature
That name is a joke...
Is it? How so?
Sorry if I am missing the obvious.
Sounds a lot like arm chair to me..............
I know by your posts Aelryinth you like PEER alot, but that does kill a often used word from ever being used again. And could cause confusion if someone messes saying peer somewhere and then ya get the ideal and questions about did they mean peers like his equals or coworkers or fellow nobles or the PEER class.
That alone puts it out of the running I think. Runed and enruned have the same issues. You really do not want to kill off words you could use often.
Actually, I like ENRUNED. PEER is short and sweet, however. And you aren't going to kill off anything. Fighter, theif and mage can refer to barbarians, bardic conmen, and sorcerors. Big dif between fighter and FIGHTER, just as there's a dif between duelists and DUELISTS.
==Aelryinth
My vote is for Dragoon, it is a simple name, has no connotation from other games (other then final fantasy super NES, 2 or 5 was the best go Cecil). Also don't say gish anyway I go with Zirth.
Actually, I like ENRUNED. PEER is short and sweet, however. And you aren't going to kill off anything. Fighter, theif and mage can refer to barbarians, bardic conmen, and sorcerors. Big dif between fighter and FIGHTER, just as there's a dif between duelists and DUELISTS.
==Aelryinth
Not at all, they already can not call just anyone a wizard or a bard or a sorcerer, you can't just say the group of fighters, unless you have them of that class, barbarians are mostly used as barbaric tribes if someone in that group is not of that class. You can't just say "You see a group of rogues" Or "you see a group of fighters" and not expect the players to think they face all of those classes and not common pick pockets of the expert class or the warrior NPC class.
Evey common use word you use as a class names effectively takes it out of circulation as a common use word. If you called a class a mystic then there goes the word mystic as a catch all term, same thing with monk, you can't all just any group monks without baggage of the class name.
You say" your approached by a group of monks" what the players hear is "A group of MONKS approach you"
Enruned is a term they have used I do believe , I known runes came up alot, and if that is a class name you loose that as a descriptive term.
The words are used and once ya use em as a class they are more or less gone for publication without confusion setting in
This doesn't really fit, but:
Centurion
It is a cool name anyway.
EDIT:
As far as the name warlock is concerned, I'd rather see that a prestige class with a strong connection to the sorcerer class myself if it eventually gets used in Pathfinder. It's a much better fit in many ways.
Actually, I like ENRUNED. PEER is short and sweet, however. And you aren't going to kill off anything. Fighter, theif and mage can refer to barbarians, bardic conmen, and sorcerors. Big dif between fighter and FIGHTER, just as there's a dif between duelists and DUELISTS.
==Aelryinth
Not at all, they already can not call just anyone a wizard or a bard or a sorcerer, you can't just say the group of fighters, unless you have them of that class, barbarians are mostly used as barbaric tribes if someone in that group is not of that class. You can't just say "You see a group of rogues" Or "you see a group of fighters" and not expect the players to think they face all of those classes and not common pick pockets of the expert class or the warrior NPC class.
Evey common use word you use as a class names effectively takes it out of circulation as a common use word. If you called a class a mystic then there goes the word mystic as a catch all term, same thing with monk, you can't all just any group monks without baggage of the class name.
You say" your approached by a group of monks" what the players hear is "A group of MONKS approach you"
Enruned is a term they have used I do believe , I known runes came up alot, and if that is a class name you loose that as a descriptive term.
The words are used and once ya use em as a class they are more or less gone for publication without confusion setting in
No. "Expert" can mean a NPC class, or anyone with skill ranks. He's an Expert in Smithing doesn't make him an NPC.
A bunch of Mystics can be ANYTHING. Usually its spellcasters, but monks have mystical connotations, too.
A group of monks can be CLERICS, adepts, priests, anything.
i.e. I don't believe your argument. Words are what you make of them. Most Fighters don't call themselves Fighters...they call themselves swordsmen, archers, etc. Most Rogues don't call themselves Rogues...adventurers or theives is probably more common. After all, James Bond is a quintessential Rogue, and he's Special Agent 007, not Rogue 007. Barbarians don't call themselves that...they are tribal warriors, it's the civilized people who are savages.
The term is used to describe a class, that is all. By your example, witches, oracles, summoners and alchemists can't be used to describe anything other then members of those classes. If I say the NPC is an alchemist, it's the player's fault if they assume he's an Alchemist and not a Wizard with Alchemy ranks.
==Aelryinth
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This doesn't really fit, but:
Centurion
It is a cool name anyway.
Other military ranks are neat to check out for inspiration.
While it might seem weird to use Centurion or Strategos or Tribune or Legatus inappropriately, it's not like 'cohort' isn't a D&D term for a single follower, and not a company of 80-ish soldiers, so we've got precedent for misusing classic terms. :)
I'm definitely leaning toward one choice over the others.
I guess warlock
The term is used to describe a class, that is all. By your example, witches, oracles, summoners and alchemists can't be used to describe anything other then members of those classes. If I say the NPC is an alchemist, it's the player's fault if they assume he's an Alchemist and not a Wizard with Alchemy ranks.
From a publishing standpoint they most likely can not, you can't call a druid a wizard and you can't call a witch a druid not in something you publish. In a home game sure, but you need to look at it from the publishing side
A witch is now and forever the witch class, same with monk, wizard and cleric...notice they do not call non-cleric clerics they call em priests. Which is why mystic was shot down for an oracle name replacement, they simply did not want to loose the catch all term 'mystic"
And more or less you do loose it, you loose the freedom to use that word without thinking "how does this effect the class we used this word for?" Once you use that word it now has a defined in game meaning. And once ya define it using it outside of the defined meaning is not something you want to do.
Woden – is interesting from germanic mythology. In RPG terms, his portfolio is: wisdom, war, battle, and death, and also magic, poetry, prophecy, victory, and the hunt
This doesn't really fit, but:
Centurion
It is a cool name anyway.
It is a name I bounced around myself awhile ago, but I decided that most of the people who would play the game would be thinking of the BattleStar Galatica cylons.
Highlander?
EDIT: Aha!
Highlander might count as it has the ability to hid a katana in any type of clothing, like a bag of holding...then maybe that is just the katana being awesome..tough call :)
Fyrd-which is the Anglo-Saxon for Militiaman or Man at Arms
Baliff- of course this is a Medieval term that usually represents the individual in charge of the day to day operations of a feudal estate
Bastion
Bulwark
You know, firefighter actually fits pretty well if you take it to mean "fights using fire". But, that sounds too close to the fighter class. Maybe, fireman?
Just kidding :)
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The only medieval warriors who regularly employed "magic" to destroy their enemies were amongst the Byzantines and Arabs in the form of Greek Fire siphons and Naft fire-pots. The use of Naptha actually held back the conquest of Constantinople for around three centuries (you don't see much use of it during the 12th century for unknown reasons, likely a loss of access to resources). Why not use Naptha as a basis for the name?
Naffatun might be a good base. It is literally "Fire-Thrower" in the sense of burning oil.
*cough* Armature
That name is a joke...
Is it? How so?
Sorry if I am missing the obvious.
If you tried to click on the link you'd get that it's a term used to describe engineering networks, supporting structures and other such things (which is probably the reason for all those links on google).
You can just as well call the class armoire :/
For all of those who are suggesting Armiger, if it hasn't been said already, I'd like to point out that the title is already being used for the lowest rank of the Hellknight hierarchy. This appears on page 65 of Council of Thieves #3: What Lies in Dust and it may lead to confusion if it is used as both a rank and class name.
Harbinger isn't bad, now that I've mulled it over.
I still like Dragoon. Sad to see Armiger taken.
I'd prefer Gendarme to Grenadier. Grenadier conjurs up an image of a guy who is now an Alchemist in the setting. Plus, the magic that serves the role of artillery is unlikely to be cast by a fighter-mage, and more likely coming from a dedicated war-wizard. That said, Gendarme sounds cool but is basically inappropriate in historical function, much moreso than Dragoon which I can at least make a case for.
This has been a fascinating puzzle.
Highlander might count as it has the ability to hid a katana in any type of clothing, like a bag of holding...then maybe that is just the katana being awesome..tough call :)
The drawback of the Highlander class is that he takes octuple damage from nonlethal sources, and falls unconscious whenever the plot calls for it dispite being a warrior class.
I'm not sure whether the Highlander wouldn't have legal issues as well...
At this point I'd just make up a word. I'm impressed with how hard everyone is trying, but none of it sounds great. A couple are okay. Just my opinion, and again, A for effort, but seriously, just make one up and spare yourselves the headache.
I'll admit that I had a small amount of angst when I posted, but still it's been a bit of fun helping out.
If it was going to end up becoming something made up, I believe that it would have to avoid cultural influences (a very, very hard thing to do with English) or to be something that was obscure enough that people would be willing to accept it at face value (also hard given the amount of information available at one's fingertips).
Come to think of it now, Gish and Schmonktarn aren't looking so bad after all. That tells me it is time to leave this thread alone :)
I'm coming to the conclusion that I like Mystic better than Warlock but its close
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I've used Athame for this sort of character in my campaign for a few years now, so it would be a perfect fit to me. Warlock wouldn't be bad, if not for popularity of the 3.5 version, and its 4E counterpart. A lot of Pathfinder folks already associate Armiger with a low level Hellknight. Even more associate Centurion with either Rome or cylons. Myrmidon and Dragoon are good, about on the level of paladin as far as obscure meaning.
For all of those who are suggesting Armiger, if it hasn't been said already, I'd like to point out that the title is already being used for the lowest rank of the Hellknight hierarchy. This appears on page 65 of Council of Thieves #3: What Lies in Dust and it may lead to confusion if it is used as both a rank and class name.
Didn't know that, good catch. Myrmidon is still in the running however.
The drawback of the Highlander class is that he takes octuple damage from nonlethal sources, and falls unconscious whenever the plot calls for it dispite being a warrior class.
Good point, he also can not control his chain lighting very well
At this point I'd just make up a word. I'm impressed with how hard everyone is trying, but none of it sounds great. A couple are okay. Just my opinion, and again, A for effort, but seriously, just make one up and spare yourselves the headache.
Except that no other base class is named for a made-up word, or a metaphor, or a portmanteau, or a compound word.
There have been very many good suggestions, and I think this thread has been more than worthwhile just for all the weird actual words I've learned from it.
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Coming to the party late, but I will say that before reading many of these posts warlock and magus jumped out at me as being obvious and good choices. I think warlock makes more sense except for its use in 3.5, given that Pathfinder is intended to be backwards compatible and all. Magus seems like an elegant, simple fit. I also think archmage fits nicely.
Coming to the party late, but I will say that before reading many of these posts warlock and magus jumped out at me as being obvious and good choices. I think warlock makes more sense except for its use in 3.5, given that Pathfinder is intended to be backwards compatible and all. Magus seems like an elegant, simple fit. I also think archmage fits nicely.
Just trying to understand people's reasons liking certain words regardless of their meaning: archmage is already a 3.5 prestige class and basically means "high-wizard", magus is another word for mage. What do you mean "archmage fits nicely", not being argumentative but I just don't get it.....
also people liking "mystic", which is introverted contemplation of spiritual reality, again it's a cool sounding word but does not scream fighter/magic user at me.
i see a few posts about "Paladin" being a word uncommon enough to be in the made up realm before D&D popularized the name, but that is just way off. Since the 1300's it has been used to refer to holy, chivalrous knights using the power of faith as well as martial strength and a term used in french, german, spanish and english among others.
just my ramblings.....;-)