Alchemist's Permanent potions ability


Rules Questions


If you use a potion of say haste does the permanency continue to affect your whole group? The wording of the discovery implies that it would.

Has anyone yet used the summoner's early entry to get potins of fire shield/stone skin and tried them with this ability? How did that turn out?


grasshopper_ea wrote:

If you use a potion of say haste does the permanency continue to affect your whole group? The wording of the discovery implies that it would.

Potions only affect the imbiber.

"Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber."

"The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect"


hogarth wrote:
grasshopper_ea wrote:

If you use a potion of say haste does the permanency continue to affect your whole group? The wording of the discovery implies that it would.

Potions only affect the imbiber.

"Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber."

"The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect"

When you drink the potion you essentially cast the spell and pick legal targets. If not a scroll of haste which is less expensive would be more powerful than a potion of haste. What's the fun in brewing a potion of fireball if it only affects the person who drank it. At least that's how I see it. If not potions of haste should cost a lot less than they do currently since part of the making it a 3rd level spell is that it is a 5 person buff from a level 5 wizard as opposed to bull strength a level 2 buff affecting one person.


grasshopper_ea wrote:
hogarth wrote:
"The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect"
When you drink the potion you essentially cast the spell and pick legal targets.

Sorry, I think the quote makes it clear that the drinker is the only target.

Yes, that makes potions much worse than scrolls in most ways.

grasshopper_ea wrote:
What's the fun in brewing a potion of fireball if it only affects the person who drank it.

Technically, you can't brew a potion of fireball, since that spell doesn't target one or more creatures.


hogarth wrote:
grasshopper_ea wrote:
hogarth wrote:
"The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect"
When you drink the potion you essentially cast the spell and pick legal targets.

Sorry, I think the quote makes it clear that the drinker is the only target.

Yes, that makes potions much worse than scrolls in most ways.

Effective target AND CASTER the caster selects multiple targets. He just happens to be the target(shows which targets are close enough to affect)

Dark Archive

grasshopper_ea wrote:
hogarth wrote:
grasshopper_ea wrote:

If you use a potion of say haste does the permanency continue to affect your whole group? The wording of the discovery implies that it would.

Potions only affect the imbiber.

"Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber."

"The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect"

When you drink the potion you essentially cast the spell and pick legal targets. If not a scroll of haste which is less expensive would be more powerful than a potion of haste. What's the fun in brewing a potion of fireball if it only affects the person who drank it. At least that's how I see it. If not potions of haste should cost a lot less than they do currently since part of the making it a 3rd level spell is that it is a 5 person buff from a level 5 wizard as opposed to bull strength a level 2 buff affecting one person.

From the PRD:

Quote:
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so.

So, the caster has already decided how many people and who get the haste ability. Namely the person drinking the potion, and I guess anyone else who the caster (not the drinker) set up if they are in range.

So, yes, a potion of fireball would just be REALLY bad heartburn for the imbiber.


From the PRD:

Quote:
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so.

So, the caster has already decided how many people and who get the haste ability. Namely the person drinking the potion, and I guess anyone else who the caster (not the drinker) set up if they are in range.

So, yes, a potion of fireball would just be REALLY bad heartburn for the imbiber.

I believe the effect being referred to by you here is that the potion is always resist energy(fire) and has been determined by the brewer of the potion. It's a gray area so I can see your point, but I don't see any reason a level 3, caster level 5 potion of haste would not haste 5 people within a legal area.


I don't know what to tell you. Saying "The drinker of the potion is the effective target" is clear to me. Combined with "The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect" seems, it seems like there's little room for argument.

If you're GMing, you're welcome to rule otherwise, of course.

Liberty's Edge

Potions are pretty clear.

They affect the drinker.

The drinker is the only target.

...There's really nothing else to add.

The Exchange

Potions affect only the imbiber.

Yes, that makes potions worse in some cases and yes, they are more expensive than scrolls... But anyone can use a potion. Human Fighter with a 7 charisma and no ranks in UMD but wants to get some emergency healing/buffing? Potions, my man, potions. Not great to stock up on too much, but a potion can save a life when used right.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Now a potion of fireball would be interesting if you had a good fire resistance... Get a 30 fire resist ring then start downing the potions 10d6 save for half. Average damage is only 35 even if you failed the save.


dulsin wrote:
Now a potion of fireball would be interesting if you had a good fire resistance... Get a 30 fire resist ring then start downing the potions 10d6 save for half. Average damage is only 35 even if you failed the save.

Except by RAW, fireball is not a valid spell for brewing as a potion:

Pathfinder Core Rulebook, Potions wrote:
[potions] can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures.

You'll notice that Fireball doesn't target 1 or more creatures. It doesn't even have a "Target" entry listed. This is because Fireball doesn't target anyone or anything. It simply explodes in a designated area, which is why it has an "Area" entry instead of a "Target" entry.

Since it doesn't target 1 or more creatures, it cannot be made into a potion without creating a houserule to allow it.


As has been said, only the drinker is affected and this, combined with the higher price, makes scrolls generally more useful. However, there are some important pros with potions:
- Anyone can use them. You don't need to be a cleric to down a potion of cure moderate wounds.
- Anyone with the feat can make any potion, or so it seems. To write a scroll or craft a wand, you have to be able to cast the spell. The rules seem to imply that you can craft any potion that can be crafted, as long as you can take the +5 to the crafting DC for lacking the spell.

So if you're for example in a really small party with a wizard as the only caster, he could still be able to craft that potion of cure moderate wounds. He couldn't ever make a wand or scroll.


grasshopper_ea wrote:
When you drink the potion you essentially cast the spell and pick legal targets.

The RAW quotes have been provided. It's very clear that the potion only affects the imbiber becase the RAW says so. The imbiber is the target. The only target.

The imbiber is effectively the caster of the spell but this really only benefits him when the spell description says "The caster gets blah blah blah". Being the caster of the sepll doesn't entitle him to make any decisions or gain any power that an actual spellcaster gets - especially since the potion rules very explicitly state that the imbiber cannot make any decisions regarding the spell - those decisions were made days, months, years, centuries ago when the potion was brewed.

And incidentally, even if the brewer of a Haste potion could see the future with crystal clarity and knew who would drink his potion, and when, and where, and which allies the imbiber would like to include, the brewer couldn't put all that into the potion since the potion still only affects the imbiber.

grasshopper_ea wrote:
If not a scroll of haste which is less expensive would be more powerful than a potion of haste.

Scrolls should be more powerful than potions because scrolls cannot be used by everyone.

When you brew a potion, you throw in some Rare Earths, Essential Oils, cricket legs, eye of newt, season with a little nutmeg, and toss in a little magic for good measure. Then you had it to Bob the fighter and he gets the full use of it. The unlimited usability of potions makest hem more desirable as battlefield tools than scrolls, hence the higher price.

But when you scribe a scroll, you writed down specific arcane or divine formulae that is incomprehensible and useless to everyone except fellow arcane or divine spellcasters. The limited usability of scrolls makes them less desirable as battlefield tools than potions, hence the lower price.

grasshopper_ea wrote:
What's the fun in brewing a potion of fireball if it only affects the person who drank it.

No fun at all since you can't brew it, pre RAW.

grasshopper_ea wrote:
At least that's how I see it. If not potions of haste should cost a lot less than they do currently since part of the making it a 3rd level spell is that it is a 5 person buff from a level 5 wizard as opposed to bull strength a level 2 buff affecting one person.

Maybe.

But not all 3rd level spells effect multiple targets. Consider a potion of Cure Serious Wounds. It effects exactly the same number of targets as a spell of Cure Serious Wounds.

So when the Paizo guys wrote the Pathfinder rulebook, they made a general rule pricing rule for potions based on the level of the spell and the level of the caster. Number of targets was not a factor. Therefore, all 3rd level potions are priced the same, regardless of whether the potion is a significantly reduced-efficacy Haste or a completely unreduced-efficacy Cure Serious Wounds.

Maybe that's not the best way to handle it. Maybe that's too over-simplified. Maybe better pricing guides should be written or houseruled.

Nevertheless, it's the Rules as Written.

Contributor

Hunterofthedusk wrote:
Potions affect only the imbiber.

This.

Dark Archive

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Hunterofthedusk wrote:
Potions affect only the imbiber.
This.

I stand corrected. Thank you for the info.


i imagine a "potion" of fireball working more like a grenade that explodes on impact. it uses the rules for potion creation, but otherwise, is similar in concept to throwing splash weapons. much like you don't drink an "oil" of magic weapon. you rub it on your weapon.


grasshopper_ea wrote:


Has anyone yet used the summoner's early entry to get potins of fire shield/stone skin and tried them with this ability? How did that turn out?

Any thoughts on this?


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Hunterofthedusk wrote:
Potions affect only the imbiber.
This.

Is oversimplified to the point of breaking balance weakening potions, arguably already weakest of magic items. Does an oil of daylight only affect the imbiber or do other's see the daylight as well?


grasshopper_ea wrote:
grasshopper_ea wrote:


Has anyone yet used the summoner's early entry to get potins of fire shield/stone skin and tried them with this ability? How did that turn out?
Any thoughts on this?

I haven't tried it yet (my alchemist is only level 1), but...

  • By my interpretation, you can't make a potion of Fire Shield, since it doesn't target "one or more creatures".
  • A potion of Stoneskin would cost 775 gp to craft, so it's a bit expensive. Still potentially useful, I suppose.

grasshopper_ea wrote:
Does an oil of daylight only affect the imbiber or do other's see the daylight as well?

Daylight affects one "object touched", so it works normally.


hogarth wrote:
grasshopper_ea wrote:
grasshopper_ea wrote:


Has anyone yet used the summoner's early entry to get potins of fire shield/stone skin and tried them with this ability? How did that turn out?
Any thoughts on this?

I haven't tried it yet (my alchemist is only level 1), but...

  • By my interpretation, you can't make a potion of Fire Shield, since it doesn't target "one or more creatures".
  • A potion of Stoneskin would cost 775 gp to craft, so it's a bit expensive. Still potentially useful, I suppose.

grasshopper_ea wrote:
Does an oil of daylight only affect the imbiber or do other's see the daylight as well?
Daylight affects one "object touched", so it works normally.

I can see the argument on fire shield like the argument against potions of shield since they are caster only. I also have been told that potions of shield have been given as treasure in published campaigns through the years. That's an iffy rule for me. I would imagine the potion of stoneskin would have the same cap as casting the spell and once the damage was reduced the spell would end despite the permanency, still it would be a nice always up buff I think.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yes, "Oil" is generally for spells that affect objects instead of creatures. There's a bit of a lapse in the SRD rules on this, which has partially carried forward I believe. Also sometimes used as flavor for spells that are very external (Magic Fang for instance).

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
i imagine a "potion" of fireball working more like a grenade that explodes on impact. it uses the rules for potion creation, but otherwise, is similar in concept to throwing splash weapons. much like you don't drink an "oil" of magic weapon. you rub it on your weapon.

It's called an Oil of Fiery Burning - check your Unearthed Arcana for the details (original version), or Dragon Magazine #6X. Love 'em.

As for drinking a potion of fireball - no save I'd think to that. Which is why you'd brew them at 8d6 or so to avoid most damage.

Potions of fireshield are a 'no' - no personal spells (w/out DM leeway of course). Stoneskin is a great idea, nice oil example too. Wand is massively too expensive for most. Stone salve is inefficient.


grasshopper_ea wrote:
I would imagine the potion of stoneskin would have the same cap as casting the spell and once the damage was reduced the spell would end despite the permanency, still it would be a nice always up buff I think.

Oh, you're talking about a permanent Stoneskin. Yes, it would be useful to always have up, at least until the next time you need it. But note that alchemists already have Stoneskin as a formula, so you could save 525 gp that way.


grasshopper_ea wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Hunterofthedusk wrote:
Potions affect only the imbiber.
This.

Is oversimplified to the point of breaking balance weakening potions, arguably already weakest of magic items. Does an oil of daylight only affect the imbiber or do other's see the daylight as well?

And yet nothing has changed in Pathfinder in regards to potions. This is the way it has always been in d20. It is already balanced, nothing is being broken.


hogarth wrote:
grasshopper_ea wrote:
I would imagine the potion of stoneskin would have the same cap as casting the spell and once the damage was reduced the spell would end despite the permanency, still it would be a nice always up buff I think.
Oh, you're talking about a permanent Stoneskin. Yes, it would be useful to always have up, at least until the next time you need it. But note that alchemists already have Stoneskin as a formula, so you could save 525 gp that way.

Yes, but Summoners get stoneskin as a 3rd level spell which makes it able to be put in potion form. I don't believe that alchemists are able to permanency extracts unless I misread it only applies to potions. Yes I was talking about having one permanencied. It allows you to play the befuddled old scientist with 8-10 con and 20+ int without too much worry of dying every fight.


grasshopper_ea wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Hunterofthedusk wrote:
Potions affect only the imbiber.
This.

Is oversimplified to the point of breaking balance weakening potions, arguably already weakest of magic items. Does an oil of daylight only affect the imbiber or do other's see the daylight as well?

Trolling in your own thread?

Read the Daylight spell. It affects the "object touched" which causes "the object to shed bright light in a 60-foot radius". Now read the Potions section. Oils are not "imbibed", they are applied to an object: "The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target."

Ergo, you apply the Oil of Daylight to an object which causes it to shed light in a 60-foot radius. Once that light exists, it no longer matters the origin. Spell, oil, scroll, wondrous item, whatever. Light is light. And everyone who isn't blind will see the light.

Hopefully, now you see the light too... ;)

Contributor

grasshopper_ea wrote:
Is oversimplified to the point of breaking balance weakening potions, arguably already weakest of magic items. Does an oil of daylight only affect the imbiber or do other's see the daylight as well?

I don't see how an item that anyone can use as a standard action, without spell casting ability, spell trigger ability, or any kind of skill roll, which can be crafted in one day regardless of the cost, and allow you to compensate for the lack of a cleric or wizard in your group, is the "weakest of magic items."

They're so universal and common that they're almost mundane, but the fact is that 90% of the most common utility, buffing, and healing spells in the game are available as potions for a very low cost. Which means that the potion is not the weakest of magic items except in terms of the level 3 spell limit, which is only there to prevent players creating one-shot high-level items like potions of wish.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
grasshopper_ea wrote:
Is oversimplified to the point of breaking balance weakening potions, arguably already weakest of magic items. Does an oil of daylight only affect the imbiber or do other's see the daylight as well?

I don't see how an item that anyone can use as a standard action, without spell casting ability, spell trigger ability, or any kind of skill roll, which can be crafted in one day regardless of the cost, and allow you to compensate for the lack of a cleric or wizard in your group, is the "weakest of magic items."

They're so universal and common that they're almost mundane, but the fact is that 90% of the most common utility, buffing, and healing spells in the game are available as potions for a very low cost. Which means that the potion is not the weakest of magic items except in terms of the level 3 spell limit, which is only there to prevent players creating one-shot high-level items like potions of wish.

Well we will just have to disagree on that. I am not partial to any use it and it's gone items. I would rather have a +1 ring of protection than a +5 oil of magic vestments. Add in the level cap at 3 preventing spells that are going to be useful late game, and the increased cost compared to other one shot magic items, and voila you have the weakest magic item in the game(in my opinion). If you like them though that is fine I see where they have value, especially to a character like an alchemist who can drink a potion brewed at minimum caster level and go off at his class level. I just find them very weak compared to what else is available. I don't think I've ever purchased one, and I rarely use them when I find them except possibly out of battle.


DM_Blake wrote:
grasshopper_ea wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Hunterofthedusk wrote:
Potions affect only the imbiber.
This.

Is oversimplified to the point of breaking balance weakening potions, arguably already weakest of magic items. Does an oil of daylight only affect the imbiber or do other's see the daylight as well?

Trolling in your own thread?

Read the Daylight spell. It affects the "object touched" which causes "the object to shed bright light in a 60-foot radius". Now read the Potions section. Oils are not "imbibed", they are applied to an object: "The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target."

Ergo, you apply the Oil of Daylight to an object which causes it to shed light in a 60-foot radius. Once that light exists, it no longer matters the origin. Spell, oil, scroll, wondrous item, whatever. Light is light. And everyone who isn't blind will see the light.

Hopefully, now you see the light too... ;)

Not trolling just using logic. So you agree the daylight radius is as normal we agree on this point. Now put to the side for a moment the illegality of brewing a potion that doesn't have a "target" why would the fireball radius not come into play "just hartburn" as one person stated. It doesn't make sense. You are putting a spell in a bottle, and when it goes off it is the full spell, not a miniature version of it. That is how I see it at least, and I have previously stated my opinion that determining the effect is things such as will the resist energy resist cold, fire, acid, or lighting. We don't have to continue that point though, it is fine if we disagree, and that's really not what this thread is about. I want to know what people have done with the persistant potion ability and how it has played out.


grasshopper_ea wrote:
Not trolling just using logic. So you agree the daylight radius is as normal we agree on this point.

Sure I agree, though there doesn't seem to be much room for agreement or disagreement, since it's written in black and white in the rulebook.

grasshopper_ea wrote:
Now put to the side for a moment the illegality of brewing a potion that doesn't have a "target" why would the fireball radius not come into play "just hartburn" as one person stated.

I didn't state it, but I'll play "let's pretend" for a moment.

If you could brew Fireball into a potion, and then you drank it, I would assume you become the target since that what potions do. And since the Fireball is inside you, that's where it goes off. Arguably, it should still have a 20' radius burst, but your tummy isn't that big (mine is, but then I'm a Tarrasque; you're smaller than me). So, does it rip you apart so the expanding fire can fill the volume it is supposed to fill? Does the expanding gas take the path of least resistance, bursting out of your mouth (and maybe out the other end, too)?

Maybe you don't care, being immune to fire, but most people wouldn't want a Fireball exploding in their tummy.

So I would suggest an Oil of Fireball rather than a potion. And "applying" this oil would be more a matter of throwing a breakable potion vial against a surface rather than simply pouring or rubbing it onto an item (like one might do with Daylight). Assuming you could brew an Oil of Fireball, and then throw it at least 20' (easy enough even for a human), you might actually have a useful weapon there.

But what I don't see is making a potion that you drink, and then you can point your finger and shoot your own Fireball out of your fingertip like a real spellcaster would. Potions don't work that way. They don't give you a temporary ability to cast the spell. The spell has already been cast and the effects are in the bottle, waiting to affect the imbiber (potions) or the object to which they are applied (oils).

There is no RAW for a middle-ground that a potion somehow grants you a 1-time ability to cast the spell yourself, although, thinking about it, that could be a good idea for a houserule. A whole new kind of magic item. Not a potion or an oil (we already have those) but maybe something new. Maybe we could call it an elixir or a philtre or something not already defined by game rules. Drinking such an elixir would, in fact, grant the imbiber a one-time ability to use the spell.

That would be weird. For example, how would a simple fighter even know what to do if he drank an Elixir of Fireball, or how would he know the process for declaring which allies, and how many, an Elixir of Haste would affect?

Still, that could be a fun houserule.

grasshopper_ea wrote:
It doesn't make sense. You are putting a spell in a bottle, and when it goes off it is the full spell, not a miniature version of it.

That's where we disagree. You are not putting a spell in a bottle. You are putting the effects of the spell which is, for all intents and purposes, cast during the brewing, not during the drinking.

grasshopper_ea wrote:
I want to know what people have done with the persistant potion ability and how it has played out.

I haven't used this yet.

As for my interpretation, I am not sure you could apply a permanency effect to an ablative spell like Stoneskin. By that I mean, Stoneskin fades with use. Each time it prevents damage, the amount of the remaining Stoneskin is diminished until it is gone. The actual Permanency spell cannot be used on Stoneskin, though maybe the Persistent Potion class ability could.

At most, it would extend the duration from 10 min/level to whatever the class ability would allow, but the ablative nature of Stoneskin would not be altered. So, if a 10th level Summoner brewed a potion of Stoneskin at CL 10 (1500 gp, 750 gp cost to brew it), and an Alchemists drinks it and applies his class ability (I don't have the class here - can he use this ability on someone else's potions?), assuming all that is allowed, then I would say that Stoneskin will not expire in the usual 100 minutes (how long does Persistent Potion last, anyway? Permanent? 1 hour/level? 1 day/level?) but it would still only absorb 100 HP of damage and then it would be gone.

That's how I think I would run it, but I suppose when I get home and read the ability, I might feel differently - for now, that seems to be what makes sense.


grasshopper_ea wrote:


Not trolling just using logic. So you agree the daylight radius is as normal we agree on this point. Now put to the side for a moment the illegality of brewing a potion that doesn't have a "target" why would the fireball radius not come into play "just hartburn" as one person stated. It doesn't make sense. You are putting a spell in a bottle, and when it goes off it is the full spell, not a miniature version of it. That is how I see it at least, and I have previously stated my opinion that determining the effect is things such as will the resist energy resist cold, fire, acid, or lighting. We don't have to continue that point though, it is fine if we disagree, and that's really not what this thread is about. I want to know what people have done with the persistant potion ability and how it has played out.

Simple, it doesn't. This is, as has been pointed out to you repeatedly, what the rules say. It's inherent in the process of putting a spell into a potion that the end result can only ever affect one being. The rules are often not big on in-world justification of the process, but if you really need one, it can be argued that the process of brewing the potion puts the magic directly into the liquid in the bottle. The entire bottle constitutes one 'dose' of potion, and is the minimum that needs to be drunk to get any effect whatsoever. Anyone who doesn't drink the potion can gain no benefit, and there's only enough potion for one person in a bottle. The rest of the power behind the spell is simply wasted.


DM_Blake wrote:
At most, it would extend the duration from 10 min/level to whatever the class ability would allow, but the ablative nature of Stoneskin would not be altered. So, if a 10th level Summoner brewed a potion of Stoneskin at CL 10 (1500 gp, 750 gp cost to brew it), and an Alchemists drinks it and applies his class ability (I don't have the class here - can he use this ability on someone else's potions?), assuming all that is allowed, then I would say that Stoneskin will not expire in the usual 100 minutes (how long does Persistent Potion last, anyway? Permanent? 1 hour/level? 1 day/level?) but it would still only absorb 100 HP of damage and then it would be gone.

This is how I think it would work

The persistant potion remains in effect until you make another one persistant. The fact that stoneskin itself only absorbs 10 HP for caster level makes it not truly permanent, yet still very useful.

Dark Archive

You could confuse your players with potions of Vampiric Touch.

They drink the potion and take 2d6 damage (and instantly heal the same) only to have the damage show up again 1 hour later..

Scarab Sages

Ok, the potion of vampiric touch IS a pretty funny idea :D


Haste potions created by a Alchemist with the Infusion ability should just be communal. Basically you create 6 haste potions with the one spell that effect anyone that drinks them. Might seem a bit over powered but don't forget everyone you hand it to has to spend the time to drink there own potion as opposed to the spell where one person casts the spell and everyone else gets the effects. 1 round in a fight that last 3-4 rounds like a lot of fights is a big sacrifice for everyone.


the only way i could see the haste potion working for more then just the caster is if you take the tentacle discovery several times. get a costume set of small daggers made attach it to the end of the tentacles and before drinking the haste potion you slash open the tips of your tentacles roll a Xd4 (X = the number of tentacles your willing to mutilate) you take the x amount of damage. then using the tentacles as umbilical cords you stab them into your team mates bodies they take 1d4 damage then wait as you drink the potion on your next round. and then they roll another d4 damage since the tentacles most likely will not be sitting still in their wounds cutting them more as the power of the potion is slowly circulates through your system and enters theirs passing on the effect of the haste potion then they take another d4 damage as you yank out the tentacles and you guys run off some of your buddies with a pain in their sides. now as one of those team mates . i hear that my crazy alchemist friend wants to stab me with his weird tentacle that he just grew wants me to sit still as he stabs it into my side or in the case of jim our pally who is wearing full plate armor into his groin or arm pit both vital areas. so he can share the effects of a haste spell so we can run away from the mother red dragon we stumbled across in our adventure. i would be like "shut it alex and run and no you can't knife rape me with that creepy tentacle."

mind you i would be the alchemist in that situation and since i invested a feat on Infusion i would.... wait scratch that as the alchemist i would have just made it as an actual potion and not as an infusion because i thought ahead on this day and during the month or so before going on this quest i would have sunk all my money into making the group each a potion of haste. and afterwords after the ghost of my master slapped me up side the head i would go to the wizards shop and bought a wand of haste and sold those potions of haste at a discount.

so if you don't like how your extract works buy a wand and put points into use magic device. in the long run you and your friends will be much happier.

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