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I haven't read all of this thread so apologies if I touch on subjects already discussed.
I personally dislike random rolling for Abilities and much prefer point buy. Point buy allows all players to be on an even playing field when creating characters - while a bad die roll in game may result in effects that last for a short while (loss of hit points, a wasted spell etc) bad die rolls at char gen result in an imbalance that will last for the life of that character. I also dislike rolling for Hit Points.
Another thing I have found is even in games where the GM has required random abilities, if I roll not that great (but not so bad as to warrant a re-roll per the PHB) the GM has often said roll again, or roll several sets and choose the best. This frustrates me - if you're going to rule out such bad results then change the bloody random factor so those results cannot come up - make each stat 6+2d6 or something!!!!
The Living campaigns saw that to have a level playing field (and I guess to prevent some people cheating) they required point buy abilities and static HP gains.
The main reason I dislike randomness in char gen is often I come up with a character concept and then try to fulfil that concept using the rules. Yes, certain char gen rules limit my ability to do that (starting money, starting level, choice of races etc) but randomess of abilities just takes even more control away from me in trying to fulfil that character concept.
If I want to create a character randomly, because I don't have a character concept for example, then I would prefer to have much more randomness in char gen, ala Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st ed where you chose the base "class" (subject to having the stats to qualify) but your profession was chosen randomly. Traveller is also a good example of random chargen, where characteristics, skills and whether you survive in a profession, get promoted and so forth are largely random.
It might be interesting creating a completely random character generation system for 3.5, where your choice of race and class is random (perhaps set ability requirements for classes so you won't be pants, e.g. Wizards INT 12+, Fighter STR 11+ or DEX 11+, if you don't qualify you re-roll). You could also randomly determine skills and maybe even feats.
Now that might be of more interest to me than simple "roll abilities". Of course GMs should be prepared to have parties that might contain multiples of the same class (3 wizards) and perhaps missing classes that may have been almost necessary to the plot (e.g. no Rogues for a scenario requiring infiltration).
I've been experimenting a bit, and I've got quite fond of this one:
1d4 + 1d8 + 6
Very similar to 2d6 + 6, but the bell curve is a bit flatter, giving a slightly bigger variation on values (2d6 + 6 just seems to roll too many 13s for me).
Str:
Dex:
Con:
Int:
Wis:
Cha:
As much as I enjoy the classic, random rolls granted by the dice gods, chief amongst them Chessex, it has really screwed my current group.
I offered 4d6, drop the lowest, and roll six sets with the best being player's choice. Seems everyone (3-person party) except the sorceress was blessed. Everyone agreed to let her roll a set till she found one that fit her. She didn't, even after six more sets. She used the one set that was technically better than the rest, not as good as her fellow's best, and played with that, even though I was willing to let her roll more. So it is true that some players through this system just can't get a break and that it can be terrifically time consuming.
As far as point buys go, I've never used them. Considering the current group and their results, I probably will next game, though I've considered giving the rolls another try. The next time they roll though I intend on allowing 4d6, drop the lowest, re-roll ones.
Chessex be kind!
anyone thought of 2d6+6 to stop suckitude?
I tried 2d6+6 during the Alpha release of Pathfinder and found it pretty unsatisfactory. It's good if you want a character with mostly 13s and 14s, or if you really don't want to have a character with less than an 8 in an ability score. Overall, I prefer the 4d6, drop lowest method because it allows for above average PCs but also allows the chance that you'll wind up with a 5 in something.
And following the bandwagon...
Str:
Int:
Wis:
Dex:
Con:
Cha:
Might as well go thief with that one...at least I'll level up quickly.
OR...if I want to go all the way back to how the brown books did it...
Str:
Int:
Wis:
Con:
Dex:
Cha:
A, um...magic-user?
As much as I enjoy the classic, random rolls granted by the dice gods, chief amongst them Chessex, it has really screwed my current group.
I offered 4d6, drop the lowest, and roll six sets with the best being player's choice. Seems everyone (3-person party) except the sorceress was blessed. Everyone agreed to let her roll a set till she found one that fit her. She didn't, even after six more sets. She used the one set that was technically better than the rest, not as good as her fellow's best, and played with that, even though I was willing to let her roll more. So it is true that some players through this system just can't get a break and that it can be terrifically time consuming.
As far as point buys go, I've never used them. Considering the current group and their results, I probably will next game, though I've considered giving the rolls another try. The next time they roll though I intend on allowing 4d6, drop the lowest, re-roll ones.
Chessex be kind!
Try the options I presented above next time - I find they work really well (either everyone rolls a set and they all get to pick any of those sets, or non-weighted point buy). That way everyone is really on fair grounds (weighted point buy isn't fair, as far as I'm concerned).
Decisions do matter more than stats, but you still need playable stats. What are playable stats depends on several factors though.
10's across the board are not playable stats without the DM's help, and people dont want to depend on the DM for their survival. <---Dont take that out of context. I know we all depend on the DM. I mean the player will rely on the DM to go out of his way to keep him alive barring miracle rolls...
I understand what you are saying. All 10s is pretty vanilla. Of course, if you are randomly rolling dice, that will almost never happen. Just because 10.5 is the average roll on 3d6 doesn't mean 10s and 11s come up all the time. And, of course, if you make it 4d6 reroll 1s as most dice rollers seem to, the average is going to be quite a bit higher. I'm mathematicaly challenged, but I think the average in that case is going to be somewhere around 12.5, with the standard deviation around it, and obviously no scores lower than 6. You will, of course, have those wild exceptions, the folks who hit the top or the bottom of the bell curve and either have much greater stats than their companions or much lower. I addressed the first issue many years ago by insisting that all die rolls had to be witnessed. Amazingly enough, the number of super characters dropped dramatically after that. The second issue, I addressed by giving players the option of one time scrapping a character to reroll. They are stuck with the second result, though. Occasionally someone still is very unlucky or very lucky, but not that often. And luck, as I said, tends to even out over time. And sometimes the DM can help with that subtly, without bending the rules or even being illogical. For example who does the opposing sorcerer target with his first spell requiring a will-based save? Of course it will be the biggest, baddest looking fighter - the guy with the incredible Strength and Constitution scores. Even if some high scores aren't readily apparent, like Intelligence or Wisdom, it will quickly become apparent in a fight who is doing the most damage, and intelligent baddies will quickly adjust tactics to make sure they go down first. In our current game, the Barbarian with the 20 Strength and the 17 Constitution is a high damage machine who scares the crap out of every opponent he meets. He also ends nearly every combat unconscious, and it's up to the other folks to win the day. A DM can also subtly even things out by making sure the magic items recovered are more usable by the characters with lesser stats, but I wouldn't go too far with that. However, if the guy with the 20 strength uses a greatsword, and the guy with a 14 strength uses a battleaxe and shield, it's probably pretty likely that the first magic weapon they find will be a battleaxe.
With the choice of point buy or random gen I'll take random any day.
But then again I'm concept driven over stat driven.
STR
DEX
CON
INT
WIS
CHA
I got a Fighter
First, with a point buy there will be a way that is better than others to stat up a class - this will be independant of the number of times you make up that class. Why would you not allow a player to use this array just because they have before? By making them change you are introducing a certain amount of variation from their optimum - dice would do the same thing.
Really? What's the best way to stat up a Fighter? A Summoner? An Alchemist? Hell, what's the best way to stat up FighterMan? I bet you get several different answers to even that single example.
Also, you're putting words into my mouth. Stop lying about what I've said if you want to actually discuss things. You're also moving the goalposts at the same time.
With the choice of point buy or random gen I'll take random any day.
But then again I'm concept driven over stat driven.
STR 3d6
DEX 3d6
CON 3d6
INT 3d6
WIS 3d6
CHA 3d6I got a Fighter
That guy would not survive in our group because myself and the other
DM rarely fudge rolls. If the DM is helping people out then stats don't matter as much. A key point to remember however is that sometimes you have to roll for yourself. If you flubb the roll you might get a brand new character sheet.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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That guy (TheChozyn's character, rolled on 3d6)would not survive in our group because myself and the other
DM rarely fudge rolls. If the DM is helping people out then stats don't matter as much. A key point to remember however is that sometimes you have to roll for yourself. If you flubb the roll you might get a brand new character sheet.
Wraithstrike, I mean no disrespect, but of all the comments in this thread, yours here makes the least sense to me.
What I'm understanding you to say is something like: our GM already has set in place the challenges the PC's are going to face. If you come in with that character (with a 14 in Strength before any racial modifiers), the GM will present it with challenges it cannot hope to succeed against. The only way that character could survive would involve the GM cheating on dice rolls, and ours doesn't do that.
And I have to ask: rather than throwing the character up against impossible odds and leting the Law of Large Numbers take its toll, why not just give the character an encounter commensurate with his capabilities?
One solution to "low fantasy" characters might be "Throw them against bugbears and then fudge the dice rolls". Another, better, solution might be "Throw them against goblins."
I ask you for clarification, as a GM who never fudges dice, who presides over PC fatalities in the rare instances when they are deserved, and who would be able to find a place at the table for TheChozen's fighter.
Wraithstrike: I'm not sure how my rolls imply a lack of survivability... they're numbers. They have no control on the actions, equipment, strategies, etc that the fighter would take.
And if he would die it would be because that's the way the story plays out, and two options happen. I get rez'd or I roll up a new char. Either way I'm ok with, because I'm never too attached to my chars. I play them to the best of my ability within the concept of the char I've created.
But in my opinion, it all started with the reroll button.This feels like a pretty astute observation.
One of my friends had a "method" of rolling dice where he'd do the 4d6/drop the lowest method... but he'd sit there rolling dice until he rolled an 18 and THAT would be the first die roll of his character.
Had another friend who wrote a computer program that would generate stats using the 4d6/drop lowest method, but only report on results where the average ability score was 16. Wonder of Wonders, his character ended up with having all 16s for ability scores.
And ANOTHER friend would simply roll up three or four pages of stats (that's about 250 or so characters) and then picked the set he liked the best.
All of which, to me, feels like behavior that was encourage by that pesky reroll button, since all of these "methods" were popular among my college friends at about the time Pool of Radiance and those games first hit.
My groups have joked around about ideas like these, but never used any of them. We're all pretty trustworthy, and even allow for stats to be rolled at home before the game session on new characters to save the rest of us time. But, for the most part, we just roll in front of the DM so there's no shenanigans. If someone happens to roll poorly, we'll let them reroll. It's really not that big of a deal to us if one player happens to get an 18, and someone else doesn't.
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First, with a point buy there will be a way that is better than others to stat up a class - this will be independant of the number of times you make up that class. Why would you not allow a player to use this array just because they have before? By making them change you are introducing a certain amount of variation from their optimum - dice would do the same thing.Really? What's the best way to stat up a Fighter? A Summoner? An Alchemist? Hell, what's the best way to stat up FighterMan? I bet you get several different answers to even that single example.
Also, you're putting words into my mouth. Stop lying about what I've said if you want to actually discuss things. You're also moving the goalposts at the same time.
Perhaps I didn't explain my initial conjecture very well or perhaps you took it far too literally, but I'm sure I haven't engaged in out right lying to "win" for all the random rollers out there. Did you not say you wouldn't allow as a DM a player to insert a "twin" character? In the context of this thread I was refering only to the stats. It's not so much about the ultimate best way to stat something but the best way YOU stat something specific (general you, not you you just to be clear).
Someone else posted that optimisation guides exist because stats and charater advancement in general is maths. That means there will arrays of stats, for example taking an odd number so at level 4 you gain +1 with your advance, that will give a numerical advantage. Randomly rolled stats mean you are not 100% sure you will end up with numbers that match these optimum arrays as determined buy the point buy value (and if course these values will depend on number of points). It is true however you exceed these optimum values also - luck if the draw.
As you seem to be taking this little personally and I'm having issues keeping it subjective given your previous comments I will respectfully view your reply, but don't take offensive if I don't respond. Assuming you pose a question.
Regards,
Stefan.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Hi, Blake! What did you think about my suggestions (about seven posts below the link) on how to introduce random stuff without that kind of disparity?
Point-buy isn't the only option.
I don't like one PC with three 18's and one PC with three 7's. I don't think it's in the best interest of all involved to have an imbalance like that.
And I don't see the point of players rolling dozens (hundreds?) of sets of stats until they get what they want. If you prefer that approach, just give yourself whatever stats you want and save yourself the trouble.
The point buy allows the GM to build the party to his liking (power wise) and you know that all PCs are on fairly even footing.
If you have one player with 3 18's and the other player is forced to keep his stats with the three 7's, the very least you could do is allow the 7's guy a re-roll. Seriously.
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It's not so much about the ultimate best way to stat something but the best way YOU stat something specific (general you, not you you just to be clear).
For me though, I would stat a specific concept up the best I can, not a class, and I wouldn't want to play the same concept again.
One fighter I create may have 18 strength and a Charisma of 14 (and Max ranks in Intimidate and the Bullrush and Overrun feats) because I envision him as being a brute, using his bulk and steely glare to intimidate people and push them aside.
The next fighter I create I may envision as more a wily thing, always ducking and diving and looking to take a foe down without hurting them unnecessarily, but one who lack the confidence to lead or even speak up in social situations. So he may get Strength 10, Dex 16, Weapon Finesse, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm and maz ranks in Acrobatics.
With a concept in mind that is different I really don't envision using the same exact stats even if I use point buy.
If you have one player with 3 18's and the other player is forced to keep his stats with the three 7's, the very least you could do is allow the 7's guy a re-roll. Seriously.
If you're going to allow the guy who rolled three 7s to re-roll then why did you bother using a random system where that was a possibility? This is the frustration I talked about in my post and I would question the GM why he didn't use the Heroic method in Pathfinder (6+2d6) instead.
Note that in D&D3.5 a character with three 7s would officially be allowed a re-roll (unless his other three stats were at least 14, 14, 16 so his total modifers are above +0), but in Pathfinder that rule has gone, I guess thee designers thought that if you don't want such results don't use that method.
God does not play dice. . . but eh, I might as well.
Rogue it is.
And for the record, I'm against dice rolling for characters -- it's impractical for me in terms of time and resources. I can't have all my players get together for a "special session" of character creation -- when we meet for the first time, we have to play.
I don't want to allow players to roll stats outside the view of the GM. . .it's bad mojo.
Point buy is sadly a necessity. . . hmmm maybe I should use an online dice roller next time.
what about roll 24 d6 drop 6 and assign 3 to each stat? random and controlled!
our group likes to reroll 1s too, but we like power!
Did you not say you wouldn't allow as a DM a player to insert a "twin" character?
Yes, for the reasons I already covered. Twins are a symptom, not the disease. A twin character is the player telling you, "I wasn't finished being this character yet. Can I keep playing him?". It's your job as a DM to listen to that and work things out in some better way than, "Just make up a previously-unreferenced identical twin brother who knows everything that ever happened to your previous character". Your claim was that I "wouldn't allow a player to use this array because they'd used it before". This in no way resembles anything I wrote. If you weren't making a deliberate mis-statement of my position, then your reading comprehension skills need work.
In the context of this thread I was refering only to the stats. It's not so much about the ultimate best way to stat something but the best way YOU stat something specific (general you, not you you just to be clear).
Someone else posted that optimisation guides exist because stats and charater advancement in general is maths. That means there will arrays of stats, for example taking an odd number so at level 4 you gain +1 with your advance, that will give a numerical advantage. Randomly rolled stats mean you are not 100% sure you will end up with numbers that match these optimum arrays as determined buy the point buy value (and if course these values will depend on number of points). It is true however you exceed these optimum values also - luck if the draw.
And again I'll ask you -- what is the best way to stat up a Summoner?
You're getting caught in a false dichotomy. You're making the mental assumption that, because there is an optimal build, everyone will use that optimized build. This is an erroneous assumption. Every person cares about optimization to a different degree. Some even vary the value they place on optimization between each campaign. A player that plays the ultra-optimized chain-trip fighter in one game may opt for the laidback Roy Greenhilt unexceptional and entirely unoptimized party leader fighter with no stat under 12 in the next game.
They don't have that option with rolling dice. When you roll dice, you get to play the character the dice create for you. Few people use the 3d6 in order method that's amply illustrated in this thread, but the principle is the same. If you roll 4d6 drop lowest reroll 1s and end up with 18, 15, 12, 12, 9, 9, you can't make the Roy Greenhilt fighter. It simply can't be done.
I like the idea of being able to have an 18 -and- a 17 as a possibility. Not a given, mind you, but a possibility. With most point buys, this is impossible.
What I -really- hate about the point buy system is that it costs so much more the higher you want your stat. For Sarenrae's sake, just make the point buy points one for one no matter what, even to 18 and I'd have no problem with it.
20 point build for a Wizard with this method:
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 17
Int 18
Wis 11
Cha 10
Is that -really- so bad? I've rolled far better than that with the 4d6 method.
We still roll our stats for one reason and one reason only...equality is a MYTH, in the real world some people are smarter, faster and stronger, and some people are all of the above, thus it only stands to reason that in a simulation these things hold true. None of my players cry for the equality of point buys, as a matter of fact when we had a GM attempt to institute it for his game the whole group balked at the idea, we aren't about equality of stats we're about roleplaying and the dice rolls randomly determine what our characters will be like and thus no one is forced to play the dumb ugly fighter. Look at the iconic characters of the fantasy genre, How many 7's did aragorn and gandalf have? Was Allanon a weakling, is Whiskeyjack a buffoon, was Conan a clutz, we are striving to build HERO's for the most part and heroes are exemplars in most fantasy novels. Yes they have flaws but most often they are character quirks as opposed to handicaps. Now if a player wishes to emphasize a certain handicap we have no issue with them reducing a stat to facilitate this but we are not gonna to shoehorn a player into a build style just in the spirit of equality bc equality is a MYTH at least as far as the characteristics one is born with.
If you have one player with 3 18's and the other player is forced to keep his stats with the three 7's, the very least you could do is allow the 7's guy a re-roll. Seriously.I agree with DigitalMage - if I'm going to use dice, the whole point is randomness. That's kind of lost if I tell a player - roll dice until you get something you like. That doesn't make sense to me. Either roll dice, and live with entropy, or just assign whatever stats you want (assuming a GM dislikes pointbuy)
Your table plays very differently from mine; that is a very polarized way of looking at what should be a very lenient system. I think you're missing the point of rolling. Allowing a re-roll for atrocious stats(such as 3 7's) is NOT the same as "rolling til you get what you want." Far, far from it.
The way we do re-rolls, is that if your TOTAL ability modifiers add up to +1 or less, then you re-roll. So, no, it's absolutely not "roll til you get what you want anyway." We still get the randomness and uniqueness of each character's stats, but nobody plays crippled. If you happen to get great rolls, hooray! Yay randomness!
dang,missed the answers to the question part of the thread
now we're in the 2-7 people picking apart/misreading others posts part
fyi- the best system is what your group likes the most, and you're not going to convince the guy on the other side of the internet you are right.
but if you like a good debate go on ahead
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then your reading comprehension skills need work.
Your blatant insults are NOT appreciated. I may have crossed the line with my saracasm in a previous post, and I apologised for that, but this comment is openly hostile.
Back on topic. Wouldn't know a summoner if I fell over one (other than a 2e specialist mage of the same name), and the statement about degrees of optimisation you make I agree with completely.
S.
It's your game, you should do what you/the players want. But how do you say "dice rolls randomly determine what our characters will be like" and then say "no one is forced to play the dumb ugly fighter"?
That would be my question too, and it goes back to my "it all depends on player mentality" point. Counting one-shots and failed games, I've probably made at least 50 characters for d20 games over the years. Of those, the number of point-buy characters who have had a negative stat is 3, and all of those three had at least -4 adjustments and still came out with an 8. In contrast, the number of rolled characters who have had a negative stat is all of them.
With point-buy you can simply choose not to min-max. It's not difficult. But apparently most people aren't willing to make that choice, and for them rolled stats make a certain amount of sense. Rolled stats are a form of controlled min-maxing: they limit it to a given, randomly determined point, but the price of that is that they also force you to min-max up until that point.
Meh. I'll be an NPC. Do they have a Royal Food Taster class?
That guy (TheChozyn's character, rolled on 3d6)would not survive in our group because myself and the other
DM rarely fudge rolls. If the DM is helping people out then stats don't matter as much. A key point to remember however is that sometimes you have to roll for yourself. If you flubb the roll you might get a brand new character sheet.Wraithstrike, I mean no disrespect, but of all the comments in this thread, yours here makes the least sense to me.
What I'm understanding you to say is something like: our GM already has set in place the challenges the PC's are going to face. If you come in with that character (with a 14 in Strength before any racial modifiers), the GM will present it with challenges it cannot hope to succeed against. The only way that character could survive would involve the GM cheating on dice rolls, and ours doesn't do that.
And I have to ask: rather than throwing the character up against impossible odds and leting the Law of Large Numbers take its toll, why not just give the character an encounter commensurate with his capabilities?
One solution to "low fantasy" characters might be "Throw them against bugbears and then fudge the dice rolls". Another, better, solution might be "Throw them against goblins."
I ask you for clarification, as a GM who never fudges dice, who presides over PC fatalities in the rare instances when they are deserved, and who would be able to find a place at the table for TheChozen's fighter.
1. I would not use rolling
2. If I continually use encounters that his fighter could survive everyone else becomes bored. I don't like rolling because of this reason. I would rather deal with a bunch of OP'd characters because to me it is easier to do than to have one character with low rolls, try to survive. People are not stupid, and they generally know the difference between when they are surviving based on their talents or because the DM feels sorry for them.I am not saying it is "wrong" to play such a character, but in the face of rolling vs point buy Chozen's fighter is an example of why I don't like rolling. It's also not fair to the others if I "cheat" for his fighter, but send the others to their fate. I don't see how you could entertain the others(combat wise), and keep that fighter alive without helping him along. Now if everyone rolls stats like that Chozen's character might live because the battles will be brought down to the party's level.
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Point buy can be adjusted to allow for low or high fantasy. Some will say reroll, but to me that defeats the point of rolling. If you are just going to let the player keep rerolling, then just use point buy.
Not directed at anyone in particular: As for the lack of randomness. That is an excuse.
25 point buy
CLERIC 1 for 1= 76
STR 10
DEX 10
CON 14(5)
INT 10
CHA 16(10)
WIS 16(10)
CLERIC 1 for 1= 78
STR 16 (10)
DEX 12 (2)
CON 14 (5)
INT 7 (-4)
CHA 14 (5)
WIS 15 (7)
If our characters are completely different using the same point buy then what does rolling bring to the table?
Wraithstrike: I'm not sure how my rolls imply a lack of survivability... they're numbers. They have no control on the actions, equipment, strategies, etc that the fighter would take.
And if he would die it would be because that's the way the story plays out, and two options happen. I get rez'd or I roll up a new char. Either way I'm ok with, because I'm never too attached to my chars. I play them to the best of my ability within the concept of the char I've created.
This is a math based game. The numbers matter a lot. I think that making good decisions is key to any game. A bad player can tank a well made character, but that does not mean a good player can survive with a terribly made character. I would not have to care about my character at all to not develop any attachment, and most players I know are not 100% detached. They wont try to flip the table and key your car, but they don't like seeing their character die. I can't even take the time to sit down and make a character I don't care about.
You're making the mental assumption that, because there is an optimal build, everyone will use that optimized build. This is an erroneous assumption. ..
+1. I care about optimization, but I don't always make the best character I can. I normally have a concept, and try to build around it. If I lose power to achieve the concept I can live with that. I try to make sure the character can survive, but the super PC is not the end goal ever.
I like the idea of being able to have an 18 -and- a 17 as a possibility. Not a given, mind you, but a possibility. With most point buys, this is impossible.
What I -really- hate about the point buy system is that it costs so much more the higher you want your stat. For Sarenrae's sake, just make the point buy points one for one no matter what, even to 18 and I'd have no problem with it.
20 point build for a Wizard with this method:
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 17
Int 18
Wis 11
Cha 10Is that -really- so bad? I've rolled far better than that with the 4d6 method.
I have used 1 for 1's before. They make the racial adjustments matter less than they do with the weighted system though. It's not a bad system though. 25 point buy puts you around 76 1 for 1.
dang,missed the answers to the question part of the thread
now we're in the 2-7 people picking apart/misreading others posts part
fyi- the best system is what your group likes the most, and you're not going to convince the guy on the other side of the internet you are right.
but if you like a good debate go on ahead
I dont think its the "I am right you are wrong debate" here. It is more of a "I think that sucks and this is why". There is a difference. The first is like saying you have no idea what you are talking about. The 2nd one says I would never choose to play like that, and then goes on to explain why.
then your reading comprehension skills need work.Your blatant insults are NOT appreciated.
That wasn't an insult. If you truly thought I said what you claim I said, then your reading comprehension skills DO need work, because what I wrote and what you claim I wrote aren't the same.
Your table plays very differently from mine; that is a very polarized way of looking at what should be a very lenient system. I think you're missing the point of rolling. Allowing a re-roll for atrocious stats(such as 3 7's) is NOT the same as "rolling til you get what you want." Far, far from it.
The way we do re-rolls, is that if your TOTAL ability modifiers add up to +1 or less, then you re-roll. So, no, it's absolutely not "roll til you get what you want anyway." We still get the randomness and uniqueness of each character's stats, but nobody plays crippled. If you happen to get great rolls, hooray! Yay randomness!
That's not random. And I'm pretty sure I know what the rolling is for.
It's your game, and whatever method pleases the GM and the players is the 'right answer'. 3d6 is a bell curve, from 3 to 18, with a high point of around 10/11.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/3d6%20bell%20curve/FaxCelestis/bellCurve 3d6.png
If you slide that up with 'grace rolls' - you alter that curve.
Preferring one style of stat creation over another is fine. You've had better experience with point-buy versus rolling. Good for you.
Do you let the stats build the character, or do you let the character build the stats? The point buy allows a player to develop a concept and THEN allocate the attributes to best fit that concept, within the points allowed. Rolling gives the player a set of stats and then he has to fit the concept into it. I prefer the former.
I still think you're missing the point of rolling stats, even if you say you aren't. I'm not "anti point-buy", I recognize the purpose it serves, and for what it does it's great. For me and my players, point-buy is much too "assembly line" feeling; the randomness and uniqueness gets lost. It's a wonderful standard for stardardized, RAW play, and I'm not opposed to it.
I look at rolling stats as sort of like looking at how people in life. Like living people, we don't necessarily get to choose all of our stats; we all have "builds", but also do things in our lives to influence them. For me, rolling stats is like getting that lump of clay that represents the character, then shaping them from it.
I take it as a challenge, and a gamble. I love taking a random set of numbers and making them work for me. If my Wiazrd ends up with a 14 INT, oh well. I'll work around it and increase the best I can through play.
Point-buy lets you create the character before the game even begins, rolling lets you create the character throughout the story. Aside from required numbers(skill ranks, etc), I don't like beginning a game with a "finished" character, and by "finished" I mean already statted perfectly, geared perfectly, etc. I like starting relatively vague and growing into the setting around me. Just my opinion. YMMV.
Point-buy lets you create the character before the game even begins, rolling lets you create the character throughout the story. YMMV.
This is another false dichotomy, for the record. There's nothing preventing you from creating a point buy character throughout the story.
Point-buy lets you create the character before the game even begins, rolling lets you create the character throughout the story. YMMV.This is another false dichotomy, for the record. There's nothing preventing you from creating a point buy character throughout the story.
I edited my statement to expound a bit on what I meant, you're just too fast!
I dunno, maybe I just play strange. I like flaws. I like being flawed.
We still roll our stats for one reason and one reason only...equality is a MYTH, in the real world some people are smarter, faster and stronger, and some people are all of the above, thus it only stands to reason that in a simulation these things hold true. None of my players cry for the equality of point buys, as a matter of fact when we had a GM attempt to institute it for his game the whole group balked at the idea, we aren't about equality of stats we're about roleplaying and the dice rolls randomly determine what our characters will be like and thus no one is forced to play the dumb ugly fighter. Look at the iconic characters of the fantasy genre, How many 7's did aragorn and gandalf have? Was Allanon a weakling, is Whiskeyjack a buffoon, was Conan a clutz, we are striving to build HERO's for the most part and heroes are exemplars in most fantasy novels. Yes they have flaws but most often they are character quirks as opposed to handicaps. Now if a player wishes to emphasize a certain handicap we have no issue with them reducing a stat to facilitate this but we are not gonna to shoehorn a player into a build style just in the spirit of equality bc equality is a MYTH at least as far as the characteristics one is born with.It's your game, you should do what you/the players want. But how do you say "dice rolls randomly determine what our characters will be like" and then say "no one is forced to play the dumb ugly fighter"? Those seem to contradict - what happens when your players roll:
STR 17
DEX 8
CON 12
INT 6
WIS 5
CHR 7?
Ah but I never said I forced them to roll 3d6 and keep that order did I, we allow 4d6 drop the low and arrange to please, we also allow a drop stat so 7 rolls, so no we've never ended up with a character with that kind of stats
Point-buy lets you create the character before the game even begins, rolling lets you create the character throughout the story. YMMV.This is another false dichotomy, for the record. There's nothing preventing you from creating a point buy character throughout the story.I edited my statement to expound a bit on what I meant, you're just too fast!
I dunno, maybe I just play strange. I like flaws. I like being flawed.
Why can't you be flawed with point buy?
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Do you let the stats build the character, or do you let the character build the stats? The point buy allows a player to develop a concept and THEN allocate the attributes to best fit that concept, within the points allowed. Rolling gives the player a set of stats and then he has to fit the concept into it. I prefer the former.
+1
In the days of old we rolled dice then looked up our options. In 5 years of playing 1e AD&D I remember one paladin being rolled. As fate would have it he also had 18/76 strength, hmmmm - I had an Int 14 Mage (yep my highest stat, I was "optimising" - man I failed knowing quite a few spells I wanted). I remember the players name was Brendan and his character was called Tarl (yes after Tarl Cabot of Gor fame - those covers were awesome when you were 13 <grin>). Do I remember how many mages, there names (or both PC and human), nope? I have lost that "real world" <tongue in cheek> feel in modern D&D.
Along comes 3e where not only are the restrictions removed for all intensive purposes for classes/races (completely for races) but you can now "choose" your class! Hersey, a slap in the face for Tarl the Paladin! From the awe inspiring bastion of good to one of several standing around in pub waiting for an archmage to give them some quest to slay something of the appropriate CR and take it's stuff.
In the name of "game play" we have equal number of heart surgeons as we have plumbers as it were - if you'll excuse the analogy. Point buy feels one step even further removed from a fantasy setting I can connect with - it removes the natural "birth" of the character and introduces "genetic engineering"*. So in part isn't to do with how numbers are crunched it's the philosopy of doing so.
So Blake you have said what I was thinking.
(A) Roll ==> what the hell can I make? [i.e. you play the poker hand you are dealt]
(B) Buy ==> how do I best make what I want? [i.e. you can choose the poker hand BUT you can't have every card you want]
I just happen to like (A).
Merci beaucoup mon ami,
S.
*I'm actually all for GM in the real world. There would be lots more starving people without it.