Hey Ark,
Welcome to the boards.
First some details please: Class, level, Strength, and Dex. Feats
Second: What were the guys being thrown at you. If your Gm was throwing you stuff that was way over your level, you shouldn't expect your CMB (or anything else for that matter) to save you.
Now some statistical info: Assuming you are evenly matched (as in facing off against your mirror image) They have to roll a 10 + your Dex modifier to do anything to you. So the higher your dex is, the higher your CMD is over your own CMB. Strength is important as well since it makes a difference in both, but Dex is how your CMD pulls away from the CMB.
So if you are facing off against yourself and you have a 10 dex, you literally are going to grapple yourself 50% of the time.
Combat reflexes will help with those grapplers, more attack of oppurtunity. To grapple you they still need a touch attack right, boost your touch AC up some, fighting defensively, combat expertise feat, dodge feat.
Also try not to be outnumbered, it is good to keep someone near you to help you out when you get grappled, grappling creatures are easy enough to attack.
To grapple you they still need a touch attack right, boost your touch AC up some, fighting defensively, combat expertise feat, dodge feat.
Not quite. In the Pathfinder RPG, no touch attack is necessary, just a CMB vs. CMD roll. That said, the methods you list increase CMD as well as touch AC, so the advice is still good.
Since armor is a static bonus, you will see the highest benefit from wearing armor at lower levels (AC outclassing attack).
The difference between the highest BAB and lowest at 1st level is only 1 point.
At higher levels, attack rolls catch up and surpass AC eventually.
Sinc CMD is based on talent, not armor worn, and most of it's bonuses come from the same things that make attacking easier, you will see this disparity.
Having full BAB, your CMD will likely catch up and surpass your AC after you get a few levels in.
Also keep in mind that grappling takes up extra actions, and even the grappler puts himself into a disadvantage against anyone else.
Plus, our CMB should allow you to do something to your attacker, or at least escape (his CMD shouldn't be that high yet either).
So you have a 2nd fighter with 16 Str and 14 Dex so your CMD is :
Base Attack Bonus (2) + Str mod (3) + Dex mod (2) + the fixed 10 = 17
You probably mean Shield Focus that gives + 1 Shield bonus to your AC so you dont count this to your CMD
Now if you have any dodge,insight,circumstance, deflection, profane or sacred bonus to AC add this bonus to your CMD.
And last a little thing for Combat Maneuver Checks. If the oppent who tries a CMB check against you has no feat or ability that prevents the attack of opportunity that you can make against him, then make the attack of opportunity and if it hits then the amount of damage you inflicted is taken as penalty for your opponents CMB
So to give an example: your foe is a level 4 monk with CMB 8 who goes for a trip
3 (str modifier) + 4(maneuver training) + 1(weapon focus unarmed strike)
he rolls a 14 so his final CMB is 22 against your 17 CMD . BUT you have an attack of opportunity because this poor monk does not have the improved trip feat. So you hit him and your attack does (depending on your weapon lets say a longsord) 1d8+3 an average 6. Now your foe takes this damage as a penalty to his CMB so his new CMB is 22-6=16 vs 17(yours CMD).
So a higher level character with tha same str as you and an above average roll on the d20 cant easily trip/grapple/disarm you (or whatever CMB check he tries to do)
everything the wild captain said.
My only other question I would ask would be where is the rest of your group. They should be there to help cover your back.
Now for the rest of the party : Ask for a grease spell cast on your armor or you (helps with grapple) or the ultimate anti-grapple spell Freedom Of Movement, it can really turn the tide of the battle if the foes are grapplers(and not only as it gives immunity to most hampering effects including slow and paralyze aka hold person)
If there is no arcane or divine spellcaster then you can ask your fellows to give you a hand :D by using aid another that will give u +2 bonus to escape the grapples per party member that helps you (meaning in a group of four you can gain +6 bonus if you are grappled and they help you)
Last, if you want a CMD increase take a ring of protection (but you are still low level) , take the dodge feat and increase both str and dex. Also by gaining levels your BAB increases so does and your CMD.
There's realy nothing more to say. Hope i helped
Or just smile to yourself in the grapple, because your grappler is flat-footed to the rest of the party and is about to explode into little flying meat chunks :D
Grappling does not make you flat-footed, and it does not make you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. This is not 3.5.
As an aside, there is a difference between being flat-footed and losing one's Dexterity bonus to AC. The latter usually follows from the former, but you are only actually flat-footed if you haven't yet acted in the current combat (see the Glossary in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook for this definition). Any number of other conditions can make you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC, but they don't make you flat-footed - which means, for example, Uncanny Dodge doesn't help you in these cases.
Pardon me, denied dexterity bonus to ac.
Once again, no.
In the Pathfinder RPG you are not denied your Dexterity bonus to AC when grappling. You get a -4 penalty to Dexterity and a -2 penalty to attacks, though.
Zaister is correct. Having the grappled condition doesnt make you flat-footed.(Magidealer think that the grappled condition apllies both to the grappler and the victim and if what you said was right i would happy be a victim of a grapple as a long as i know a rogue is near. But you are not flat-footed.
On the other hand the pinned condition makes your already grappled foe flat-footed.
Have a nice session :D
Magidealer think that the grappled condition apllies both to the grappler and the victim and if what you said was right i would happy be a victim of a grapple as a long as i know a rogue is near. But you are not flat-footed.
The grappled condition does indeed apply to both the grappler and the grappled character, unless the grappler has taken -20 on his grapple checks.
Having the grappled condition does not make you vulnerable to sneak attacks.
hehehe and as i said "IF what he said was right" :D nothing more to discuss in the matter i think .Except if more fellows have more questions
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Another great defense against non-improved grab/grapple foes tried to grapple you is improved trip. When they provoke the attack of opportunity, use it to trip them, which is going to seriously affect their chance of grappling you, due to the penalties of attacking from prone.
Another great defense against non-improved grab/grapple foes tried to grapple you is improved trip. When they provoke the attack of opportunity, use it to trip them, which is going to seriously affect their chance of grappling you, due to the penalties of attacking from prone.
That's a nice idea! However, the penalty for attacking from prone is -4 only, so if you expect to deal more than 4 damage on your the attack of opportunity, your opponent is likely to get a worse penalty.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Another great defense against non-improved grab/grapple foes tried to grapple you is improved trip. When they provoke the attack of opportunity, use it to trip them, which is going to seriously affect their chance of grappling you, due to the penalties of attacking from prone.That's a nice idea! However, the penalty for attacking from prone is -4 only, so if you expect to deal more than 4 damage on your the attack of opportunity, your opponent is likely to get a worse penalty.
It's better when using a reach weapon - then they can't make the grapple attempt at all.
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*sigh* To clarify, open your core rulebooks to page 195.
Now observe table 8-6 Armor Class Modifiers subtext defender is...
go down to Grappling (but attacker is not)
Note the subnote to option 1 to the right in both teh melee and ranged columns.
Now go down to subnote one.
1 The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC.
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*sigh* To clarify, open your core rulebooks to page 195.
Now observe table 8-6 Armor Class Modifiers subtext defender is...
go down to Grappling (but attacker is not)
Note the subnote to option 1 to the right in both teh melee and ranged columns.
Now go down to subnote one.
1 The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Yep, rogues need to stay out of grapple, so that they can better sneak attack into it as needed..
Since sneak attack says: (bold mine)
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
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Magidealer think that the grappled condition apllies both to the grappler and the victim and if what you said was right i would happy be a victim of a grapple as a long as i know a rogue is near. But you are not flat-footed.The grappled condition does indeed apply to both the grappler and the grappled character, unless the grappler has taken -20 on his grapple checks.
Having the grappled condition does not make you vulnerable to sneak attacks.
It does. For example We have a grapple monk, a enemy fighter, and a rogue.
The monk grapples the fighter. Now between the two of them, they have the "grappled" condition, which among other things, applies a -4 dex penalty.
Now from the rogues point of view, both wrestlers have lost their dex bonus to AC and thus either one of them are open for sneak attacks. Better hope that the rogue is on the monk's side.
Oh my god how many time must i say it. THE GRAPPLED CONDITION DOESNT MAKE ANY OF THE GRAPPLERS NEITHER THE VICTIM NOR THE GRAPLLER FLAT-FOOTED THEY JUST TAKE -4 DEXTERITY PENALTY.
Grappled=-4 Dexterity
Flat-footed=loose Dexterity,Dodge Bonus to AC and vurnerable to sneak attacks(not only these but these matter for this topic)
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Did you even read my last post? Characters who are currently grappling lose their dex bonus to ac vs attackers who are not grappling. As well as having the grappled condition.
Check the page entry I very specifically cited :p
Since those grappling targets lose their dex bonus to ac vs non-grappling attackers, they're vulnerable to, among other things, sneak attacks.
Oh, btw, we're not talking about being flat-footed. We're talking about losing dexterity to ac. That particular comment was corrected in my second post... which was quite a while ago :D
Did you even read my last post? Characters who are currently grappling lose their dex bonus to ac vs attackers who are not grappling. As well as having the grappled condition.
Check the page entry I very specifically cited :p
Since those grappling targets lose their dex bonus to ac vs non-grappling attackers, they're vulnerable to, among other things, sneak attacks.
Oh, btw, we're not talking about being flat-footed. We're talking about losing dexterity to ac. That particular comment was corrected in my second post... which was quite a while ago :D
The defender loses dex according to my book. Being grappled alone only cause a -4 dex penalty according to the glossary.
The way I believe this works is that both the grappler and the grapplee have a -4 to their DEX due to the grappled condition. They are not denied their DEX bonus (if any) from each other.
Anyone outside of the grapple that is attacking into the grapple treats the defending grappled person as denied their DEX bonus.
IE The party fighter is holding the evil kobold shaman still so the rogue can stab him good.
My guess on the reason for this is to prevent sneak attack being applied to all damage by rogue grapple monkeys...
The way I believe this works is that both the grappler and the grapplee have a -4 to their DEX due to the grappled condition. They are not denied their DEX bonus (if any) from each other.
Anyone outside of the grapple that is attacking into the grapple treats the defending grappled person as denied their DEX bonus.
IE The party fighter is holding the evil kobold shaman still so the rogue can stab him good.
My guess on the reason for this is to prevent sneak attack being applied to all damage by rogue grapple monkeys...
that makes sense
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The way I believe this works is that both the grappler and the grapplee have a -4 to their DEX due to the grappled condition. They are not denied their DEX bonus (if any) from each other.
Anyone outside of the grapple that is attacking into the grapple treats the defending grappled person as denied their DEX bonus.
IE The party fighter is holding the evil kobold shaman still so the rogue can stab him good.
My guess on the reason for this is to prevent sneak attack being applied to all damage by rogue grapple monkeys...
The problem I have with what you've said is that if that were the intention then they would have put it with the rest of the grappling rules in the Appendix.
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I don't really see a contradiction. The grappled condition imposes certain universal penalties -- -4 dexterity.
Meanwhile, a non-grappling attacker specifically gains the additional benefit of the grappling target losing their dexterity bonus to ac. *but, I think, not a penalty which is possible from the grappled condition*
However, the two grapplers' retain their dex to ac vs each other while fighting, barring another condition such as pinned.
The entry could have been more clear about it :p However, the grappling rules only specifically address grappling and interactions, not how other creatures who are not grappling interact with those who are.
Due to this omission of detail, I think the table entry is necessary to explain the intent. Since it's not contradicted by the text anywhere, I don't see any reason to ignore it, or question its accuracy as raw.
all over again.....
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Yep, please contribute specific details, page numbers, entries, so on and so forth.
If you have something to add beyond "they're not flat-footed*which isn't part of the discussion anyhow*, and they only take -4 to dex", or something which refutes the table entry, I'd love to see it. I'm all about trying to understand what the rules are actually saying, and I've been wrong before.
But, I gotta say, you'll need to provide the content entries to do so :P Or, alternatively, we can hope for a dinosaur to chime in with a clarification for us :D
I can't wait until they get the errata/clarification section up and running!
Ok i've read all the comments and i'm sure i pissed some of you, it was not my intention.I must admit i missed two of Magicdealer's comments and i must say i was focused on the flat-footed part and stuck on it for an unknown reason :S. The "pardon me denied dexterity bonus to ac" comment by Magicdealer was a crucial one to understand what he was saying
First of all, anyone who has the grappled condition take a -4 penalty to Dex
A defender who has the grappled condition loses his Dex bonus to AC vs the attackers who are not grappling (rogues can sneak attack)
A defender who has the grappled condition retains his Dex bonus to AC vs his grappling attacker
A cup of coffee can really make you see the things more logically.Good morning
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Good morning :)
Yeah, it was a classic foot-in-the-mouth moment with my flat-footed comment. I still haven't finished retraining myself over to pathfinder totally :(
And on that note, I think I'll grab four hours or so of sleep myself before I have to get up for my last two finals.
Why is it that studying textbooks = tedious while studying pathfinder books = entertaining?
*shrug*
Why is it that studying textbooks = tedious while studying pathfinder books = entertaining?
Now that my friend is a very, very long conversation
I'm thinking footnote 1 in table 8-6 is an error, a holdover/copy&paste-error from the 3.5 SRD. It makes no sense in the context of all other rules about grapple in the Pathfinder RPG. Maybe we can get an answer on this from one of the designers, maybe tonight in the Paizo chat.
You think so? then it will be nice if one of ther designers/writers could explain this better. Good morning to you too Zaister
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I'm thinking footnote 1 in table 8-6 is an error, a holdover/copy&paste-error from the 3.5 SRD. It makes no sense in the context of all other rules about grapple in the Pathfinder RPG. Maybe we can get an answer on this from one of the designers, maybe tonight in the Paizo chat.
I have no problems if it is an error. but I can also see some of the logic in it being true. Either way, I think that we need some errata to make it less confusing. (either to correct the table, or add more lines to the "grappled" condition. )
I agree that the table is in error and grappled characters don't lose their Dex bonus from anyone.
There is a misunderstanding. According to the table 8-6 the grappled condition denies your Dex bonus to AC only vs attackers that dont have the grappled condition. In my head this makes sense because when you wrestle with someone and either of you start a grapple your are more vulnerable to a third person who wants to attack one of you.
Its also funny that a topic about a decent CMD is too far way from it now.
There is a misunderstanding. According to the table 8-6 the grappled condition denies your Dex bonus to AC only vs attackers that dont have the grappled condition.
Yes, and I believe this is a mistake.
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I don't see why it is considered a mistake. The reason the pinned condition confers the flat footed penalty is because the pinned individual is now denied their dexterity to all, including the grappler. While in the midst of the grapple, they are still able to use their dexterity against the grappler but not against anybody uninvolved.
I don't believe there's any error or oversight here, though will gladly acknowledge my error if a designer corrects me.
The grappled condition imposes a blanket penalty to dexterity, regardless of if you are the initiator or defender and regardless of if you are being attacked from within the grapple or outside of it.
Anybody who is grappling is denied their dexterity against anybody who is not grappling. Note that the table specifies that the attacker (who is prompting the reference to the table) cannot be grappling for the AC modifier to apply.
Anybody who is pinned is flat-footed, and thus denied their dexterity.
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I don't see why it is considered a mistake. The reason the pinned condition confers the flat footed penalty is because the pinned individual is now denied their dexterity to all, including the grappler. While in the midst of the grapple, they are still able to use their dexterity against the grappler but not against anybody uninvolved.
I don't believe there's any error or oversight here, though will gladly acknowledge my error if a designer corrects me.
The grappled condition imposes a blanket penalty to dexterity, regardless of if you are the initiator or defender and regardless of if you are being attacked from within the grapple or outside of it.
Anybody who is grappling is denied their dexterity against anybody who is not grappling. Note that the table specifies that the attacker (who is prompting the reference to the table) cannot be grappling for the AC modifier to apply.
Anybody who is pinned is flat-footed, and thus denied their dexterity.
And this is why all rogues need a ring of telekinesis
Grab and stab!