Makes sense. In that case perhaps after you do the "mundane fights guide" you could do a similar one for more focused fighters based around flavor. Unarmed being one of them, perhaps another being a knife thrower, a third being an improvised weapon user. That kind of thing
Of course that might just be a pipe dream of mine. As is thrown weapon specialists and unarmed specialists would need more feats unique for their specialties to be on par with the mundane style of fighters.
Makes sense. In that case perhaps after you do the "mundane fights guide" you could do a similar one for more focused fighters based around flavor. Unarmed being one of them, perhaps another being a knife thrower, a third being an improvised weapon user. That kind of thing
Of course that might just be a pipe dream of mine. As is thrown weapon specialists and unarmed specialists would need more feats unique for their specialties to be on par with the mundane style of fighters.
Oh man, those kinds of characters seem more like the ones that I usually actually play (I'm playing a Summoner who doesn't really use her Eidolon because she doesn't think it's real). They take a long time to write up, though (I know because the Sword and Shield style is complicated like they would be). Maybe if I have time later on. I'd probably finish the Cleric Guide first, for instance.
And here's the Fighter Guide. No more guides from me for a while, I think.
Heh, as long as it isn't Sorcerer. Strategies for Sorcerer spell-selection are so intricate and campaign-dependent that I think it would take me 40 pages at least to write that one and do it justice.
Aw, man! I'd be so thrilled by a complete Sorcerer guide... Even an incomplete one, with notes on ways to make spell combos work especially well together or comments on when to retrain. I've read a couple of unfinished guides, but they stop with spells at low levels - which is, admittedly, where a lot of the action takes place - but I'd be super-interested in some advice on spell choices for the high levels where I'm only going to know 3-4 spells, max.
I'm also extremely interested in an Oracle guide, but I don't suppose it makes sense to write one until the final APG comes out!
Girlfriends, definitely girlfriends.
Sigurd
nice rogue guide. i think you understated the shatter defences trick though..
Half-Elf, (skill fcs:intimidate)
or
Half-Orc, (Racial+2,Bully Trait)taking intimidating prowess,dazzling display, shatter defences (brute version)
can be frickin Awesome-
Use a round to intimidate Everyone and full SA, no flank req rocks.
Gets WIN if conrugan smash is allowed.
It actually takes a full round (and you have to win the check by 5 or more), then one attack per enemy you want to sneak to make them flat-footed, then full Sneak Attack until the end of the next turn for everyone. That's good, but you probably could have gotten more Sneak Attacks in that tie with a trusty flank. To reach freaking awesome levels, you need someone else to pull the Dazzling Display so you can shatter defenses on the same round.
I agree, Cornugon Smash is just win--I noticed it mentioned in another thread, looked it up, and included it with a passing mention in the Fighter guide. I want to mainly be offering advice assuming core only to start, so I didn't make it as prominent.
Maybe a flanking guide in the rogue guide?
I don't see how it is possible to flank someone easily.
-20 tumble check trying to move through his space.
I think it's +10 to the DC, rather than 20. However, usually you can just go around them.
Very nice guide. I like the use of shatter defenses with the Archer Build especially.
I would like to make a couple comments if I may,
1) Multiclassing is really good for Rogues. Largely to pad those crappy saving throws. Mechanically speaking, (although the concept would certainly be unusual) - a Paladin 2/RogueX is going to be in excellent shape. Multiclassing Cleric, Fighter and Ranger are also tempting.
2) Note that Major Magic gives an opportunity for Archer rogues. If the Major Magic is Silent Image he can create an illusionary wall between him and the enemy (I think an illusionary wall of fire would work nicely). The Rogue can see through it and attack through it, while the enemy cannot (thus losing their dex bonus to AC). By interacting with the Wall the enemy gets a saving throw to see through the wall - but by that time, they are full of arrows. If there are multiple enemies, the Rogue can switch targets as well as the wall is recognized as illusion.
3) I thought the Halfling deserves some special mention. Small size means +1 to hit, which for Rogues can be a big deal (especially two weapon fighters). The + to stealth and perception are right up a rogues alley as well. The +1 to saving throws is also a godsend for a class with weak Will and Fort saves. If you do the Pally/Rogue multiclass, the bonus to CHA is also very synergetic. Oh yeah, and the +1 AC is nice too. The -2 Str doesn't hurt too bad since you are largely relying on SA for damage and Dex to hit.
Very nice guide. I like the use of shatter defenses with the Archer Build especially.
I would like to make a couple comments if I may,
1) Multiclassing is really good for Rogues. Largely to pad those crappy saving throws. Mechanically speaking, (although the concept would certainly be unusual) - a Paladin 2/RogueX is going to be in excellent shape. Multiclassing Cleric, Fighter and Ranger are also tempting.
2) Note that Major Magic gives an opportunity for Archer rogues. If the Major Magic is Silent Image he can create an illusionary wall between him and the enemy (I think an illusionary wall of fire would work nicely). The Rogue can see through it and attack through it, while the enemy cannot (thus losing their dex bonus to AC). By interacting with the Wall the enemy gets a saving throw to see through the wall - but by that time, they are full of arrows. If there are multiple enemies, the Rogue can switch targets as well as the wall is recognized as illusion.
3) I thought the Halfling deserves some special mention. Small size means +1 to hit, which for Rogues can be a big deal (especially two weapon fighters). The + to stealth and perception are right up a rogues alley as well. The +1 to saving throws is also a godsend for a class with weak Will and Fort saves. If you do the Pally/Rogue multiclass, the bonus to CHA is also very synergetic. Oh yeah, and the +1 AC is nice too. The -2 Str doesn't hurt too bad since you are largely relying on SA for damage and Dex to hit.
Thanks for reading, and of course you may!
1) Definitely. I didn't go into it much because I assumed people were reading the guide to go mostly Rogue, but multiclassing is excellent (particularly if you go Half-Elf). I've seen someone do the Paladin/Rogue thing, and it works well for him (though of course using Charisma). Alchemist/Rogue is also a good multiclass with the APG classes, actually even if you dump Int, the Alchemist's casting stat.
2) I still think Major Magic should be red because there's ways to get those 1st-level spells that don't tax you as much (either get your party caster to provide them, as those slots are inexpensive for her, or UMD). I suppose the fact that I tend to mention places where its more efficient to combo with allies is a matter of style, but Rogues seem to be the class most suited for it. But that's an excellent trick, one that I've actually used before so I should have remembered the like when going through my archer run-down. Of course, the problem with UMDing that one is the lower DC, but the Rogue's DC isn't going to be stellar either, so having the party caster wins out on that front. I'll add that tip in under wands/scrolls and for the archer build.
3) Halflings are great, no two ways about it. I like it better than the other two Green races. It probably suffers in the guide slightly due to all the races being listed together because the Human is so good for the feat-starved builds and Half-Elf is so great for the Skill Monkey. It would have managed Blue in at least one build if they were all separated.
Thanks for reading and for commenting!
Very nice guide. I like the use of shatter defenses with the Archer Build especially.
I would like to make a couple comments if I may,
1) Multiclassing is really good for Rogues. Largely to pad those crappy saving throws. Mechanically speaking, (although the concept would certainly be unusual) - a Paladin 2/RogueX is going to be in excellent shape. Multiclassing Cleric, Fighter and Ranger are also tempting.
I almost consider multiclassing into Fighter as a must for a Rogue. The armor and weapon proficiencies open up HUGE tactical options for the Rogue and the bonus combat feat, +1 BAB and extra hit points are a huge help in achieving many kinds of build options (how about TWF sword and board rogue?
As for Improved Feint/Greater Feint, I don't think they're a trap. Against a high-Dex foe, the change in AC can be huge and benefit the whole party (with Greater Feint) - ranged touch spells become much easier. Also Feint differs from other combat maneuvers in that you use a Skill roll not a CMB roll. It's definitely not for every build, but I think the skill monkey (or Charisma rogue) definitely can benefit from it.
Another nice thing about the Feint route is it removes the need to flank. While that may be the bread-and-butter of rogues everywhere, flanking almost always exposes you to AoO, and is sometimes next to impossible (narrow tunnels, lots of enemies).
How about a barbarian guide? Or Dragon Disciple? Those are two I'd like to see!
A DD guide would be hard. There's so many routes to DD...
Very nice guide. I like the use of shatter defenses with the Archer Build especially.
I would like to make a couple comments if I may,
1) Multiclassing is really good for Rogues. Largely to pad those crappy saving throws. Mechanically speaking, (although the concept would certainly be unusual) - a Paladin 2/RogueX is going to be in excellent shape. Multiclassing Cleric, Fighter and Ranger are also tempting.
I almost consider multiclassing into Fighter as a must for a Rogue. The armor and weapon proficiencies open up HUGE tactical options for the Rogue and the bonus combat feat, +1 BAB and extra hit points are a huge help in achieving many kinds of build options (how about TWF sword and board rogue?
As for Improved Feint/Greater Feint, I don't think they're a trap. Against a high-Dex foe, the change in AC can be huge and benefit the whole party (with Greater Feint) - ranged touch spells become much easier. Also Feint differs from other combat maneuvers in that you use a Skill roll not a CMB roll. It's definitely not for every build, but I think the skill monkey (or Charisma rogue) definitely can benefit from it.
Another nice thing about the Feint route is it removes the need to flank. While that may be the bread-and-butter of rogues everywhere, flanking almost always exposes you to AoO, and is sometimes next to impossible (narrow tunnels, lots of enemies).
For an equivalent skill investment (Intimidate vs Bluff) and equivalent number of extra feats (assuming you were getting Weapon Focus anyway), you could also do the Shatter Defenses build, which also helps the whole party, gives greater benefits, and lets you make more Sneak Attacks. That's why I think Feint is a trap.
How about a barbarian guide? Or Dragon Disciple? Those are two I'd like to see!
I agree with Helic about Dragon Disciple--and it also involves delving into Sorcerer, which I wouldn't have time to do because of its complexity. Barbarian is surely a consideration. I'll probably finish Cleric or do Barbarian if I write one before the APG comes out.
Oh - one more suggestion. Repost the link with a title to the thread that says "Rogue handbook" or something similar. That will make it easier to find in the future!
Oh - one more suggestion. Repost the link with a title to the thread that says "Rogue handbook" or something similar. That will make it easier to find in the future!
Argh, forum ate my post. My guides are on d20pfsrd like your guides here. The trouble with the thread on the Rogue Guide is that I can't edit the first post to put in a link, but its down there, and that thread is here. My Fighter Guide has a thread here, and my personal favourite, my Cleric Domain Guide. Hope that's helpful!
Then maybe just two ways to go into DD? The Rager(Barbarian4/Sorc1) and the Wyrm Song(Bard5)?
I like Pally/Sorcerer/DD. It's a natural combination, the Pally levels work very nicely with a CHA centered character, and the saving throws are terrific. Pally also leads into some nice wand use options for curing/healing.
Then maybe just two ways to go into DD? The Rager(Barbarian4/Sorc1) and the Wyrm Song(Bard5)?I like Pally/Sorcerer/DD. It's a natural combination, the Pally levels work very nicely with a CHA centered character, and the saving throws are terrific.
There's a Paladin/Sorcerer/Arcane Archer in one of my games. She's pretty powerful for just that reason.
For an equivalent skill investment (Intimidate vs Bluff) and equivalent number of extra feats (assuming you were getting Weapon Focus anyway), you could also do the Shatter Defenses build, which also helps the whole party, gives greater benefits, and lets you make more Sneak Attacks. That's why I think Feint is a trap.
Hrm. I haven't seen Dazzling Display in use much, and its 'full round action' thing makes me leery of it. It sets up Shatter Defenses nicely, but you'd still have to flank the enemy, Sneak Attack from flank (or, not flank and regular attack), THEN full attack Sneak Attack in the 3rd round - if he hasn't moved on you. You _could_ get Dazzling Display off while next to someone then full attack them the next round - this is the ideal case, but if you could set this up, you could have easily set up a flank and full attack sneak attacked without all the extra effort.
Feint is easier than Intimidate (BaB is never higher than HD, and often lower), and usually gives you an effective bonus to hit (removes DEX bonus to AC, along with Dodge bonuses IIRC) and is often immediately useful without a multi-round set-up (heck, you can let the enemies come to you). It's a pretty reliable Sneak Attack without having to move and attract AoO's. IF you were going to take lots of Bluff anyways, I think it's a good option (too bad you have to take Combat Expertise to get it).
I'd have to see a rogue with Shatter Defenses in action to really judge. I think this is heavily dependent on party numbers and composition.
Then maybe just two ways to go into DD? The Rager(Barbarian4/Sorc1) and the Wyrm Song(Bard5)?I like Pally/Sorcerer/DD. It's a natural combination, the Pally levels work very nicely with a CHA centered character, and the saving throws are terrific. Pally also leads into some nice wand use options for curing/healing.
Dragon Disciple is also a good route to other prestige classes - arcane archer, eldritch knight. It offers bonus STR and natural armor to fighter types - lose +2 BaB for +4 STR (gets your BaB back nicely) and +3 natural armor (assuming you took Sorcerer 1, DD4), atop casting 2nd level arcane spells. It's a very tempting approach for any melee class.
For an equivalent skill investment (Intimidate vs Bluff) and equivalent number of extra feats (assuming you were getting Weapon Focus anyway), you could also do the Shatter Defenses build, which also helps the whole party, gives greater benefits, and lets you make more Sneak Attacks. That's why I think Feint is a trap.Hrm. I haven't seen Dazzling Display in use much, and its 'full round action' thing makes me leery of it. It sets up Shatter Defenses nicely, but you'd still have to flank the enemy, Sneak Attack from flank (or, not flank and regular attack), THEN full attack Sneak Attack in the 3rd round - if he hasn't moved on you. You _could_ get Dazzling Display off while next to someone then full attack them the next round - this is the ideal case, but if you could set this up, you could have easily set up a flank and full attack sneak attacked without all the extra effort.
Feint is easier than Intimidate (BaB is never higher than HD, and often lower), and usually gives you an effective bonus to hit (removes DEX bonus to AC, along with Dodge bonuses IIRC) and is often immediately useful without a multi-round set-up (heck, you can let the enemies come to you). It's a pretty reliable Sneak Attack without having to move and attract AoO's. IF you were going to take lots of Bluff anyways, I think it's a good option (too bad you have to take Combat Expertise to get it).
I'd have to see a rogue with Shatter Defenses in action to really judge. I think this is heavily dependent on party numbers and composition.
As I say in the guide, it's better with someone else doing the Dazzling Display. However, let's assume you have 4 attacks (because you're level 9). We'll do it round by round for three rounds, and we'll assume bad case where you can't get a fellow party member to Dazzling Display. I'll assume you can get Bluff and Intimidate to always work:
Feint Dude-
Feint -> 1 Sneak Attack, Flat-Footed Enemy
Feint -> 1 Sneak Attack, Flat-Footed Enemy
Feint -> 1 Sneak Attack, Flat-Footed Enemy
Total: Single Enemy per Turn Always Flat-Footed, 3 Sneak Attacks
Dazzling Display Dude-
Dazzling Display -> All Enemies Shaken for some number of rounds
Full Attack -> 4 hits. Choose between up to four flat-footed enemies or one flat-footed enemy and three sneak attacks, or two flat-footed and two sneak attacks, etc.
Full Attack -> Everything flat-footed from last round is still flat-footed, four sneak attacks.
Total: All enemies Shaken for some number of rounds. At least four sneak attacks, and up to seven against a single enemy. One to four enemies flat-footed for two rounds.
As I say in the guide, it's better with someone else doing the Dazzling Display. However, let's assume you have 4 attacks (because you're level 9). We'll do it round by round for three rounds, and we'll assume bad case where you can't get a fellow party member to Dazzling Display. I'll assume you can get Bluff and Intimidate to always work:
Feint Dude-
Feint -> 1 Sneak Attack, Flat-Footed Enemy
Feint -> 1 Sneak Attack, Flat-Footed Enemy
Feint -> 1 Sneak Attack, Flat-Footed EnemyTotal: Single Enemy per Turn Always Flat-Footed, 3 Sneak Attacks
Dazzling Display Dude-
Dazzling Display -> All Enemies Shaken for some number of rounds
Full Attack -> 4 hits. Choose between up to four flat-footed enemies or one flat-footed enemy and three sneak attacks, or two flat-footed and two sneak attacks, etc.
Full Attack -> Everything flat-footed from last round is still flat-footed, four sneak attacks.Total: All enemies Shaken for some number of rounds. At least four sneak attacks, and up to seven against a single enemy. One to four enemies flat-footed for two rounds..
Except you miss the part where '4 hits' should be '4 attacks'. I agree the POTENTIAL for carnage is greater, but your iterative attacks are still very likely to miss (especially with TWF, which also ate some of your feats to get 4 attacks in the first place). And you won't be able to make 4 enemies flat footed unless you're swarmed (and then you're in real trouble), and even then you're far better off focusing attacks on one person, as when you make them flat-footed your iterative attacks are more likely to hit.
Also, you're assuming a TWF rogue (4 attacks). Change that up (TH rogue or skill monkey) and it's:
Round 1: Dazzling Display
Round 2: 2 attacks (one is potentially a sneak attack)
Round 3: 2 attacks (both sneak attacks)
So, 4 attacks, 3 of which are sneak attacks. Pretty close to the person with Improved Feint, only they started doing damage right away (which is IMO important - dropped enemies don't fight back).
In either case, your best bet is to try to flank for Sneak Attacks. If you have to generate your own sneak attacks, Improved Feint is easier, more reliable (both on the Bluff roll and the to-hit roll), instantly available and takes 2 feats, where Shatter Defenses takes 3 (though I'll admit Weapon Focus is a likely choice anyways).
Also, let's look at the 'failure' scenario. If the feint fails, the Rogue still gets a regular attack. If the Dazzling Display fails, the Rogue gets nothing.
So for a TWF Rogue, Shatter Defenses is probably the better bet (larger potential payoff to offset the odds), though for other Rogues, Improved Feint is IMO still a viable option, not 'a trap'.
As I say in the guide, it's better with someone else doing the Dazzling Display. However, let's assume you have 4 attacks (because you're level 9). We'll do it round by round for three rounds, and we'll assume bad case where you can't get a fellow party member to Dazzling Display. I'll assume you can get Bluff and Intimidate to always work:
Feint Dude-
Feint -> 1 Sneak Attack, Flat-Footed Enemy
Feint -> 1 Sneak Attack, Flat-Footed Enemy
Feint -> 1 Sneak Attack, Flat-Footed EnemyTotal: Single Enemy per Turn Always Flat-Footed, 3 Sneak Attacks
Dazzling Display Dude-
Dazzling Display -> All Enemies Shaken for some number of rounds
Full Attack -> 4 hits. Choose between up to four flat-footed enemies or one flat-footed enemy and three sneak attacks, or two flat-footed and two sneak attacks, etc.
Full Attack -> Everything flat-footed from last round is still flat-footed, four sneak attacks.Total: All enemies Shaken for some number of rounds. At least four sneak attacks, and up to seven against a single enemy. One to four enemies flat-footed for two rounds..
Except you miss the part where '4 hits' should be '4 attacks'. I agree the POTENTIAL for carnage is greater, but your iterative attacks are still very likely to miss (especially with TWF, which also ate some of your feats to get 4 attacks in the first place). And you won't be able to make 4 enemies flat footed unless you're swarmed (and then you're in real trouble), and even then you're far better off focusing attacks on one person, as when you make them flat-footed your iterative attacks are more likely to hit.
Also, you're assuming a TWF rogue (4 attacks). Change that up (TH rogue or skill monkey) and it's:
Round 1: Dazzling Display
Round 2: 2 attacks (one is potentially a sneak attack)
Round 3: 2 attacks (both sneak attacks)So, 4 attacks, 3 of which are sneak attacks. Pretty close to the person with Improved Feint, only they started doing damage right away (which is IMO important -...
I feel that having to take 13 Int is also significant. And you do need a third feat to make the enemy flat-footed to all your party. Combat Expertise is also more-or-less deadweight. Shaken is also a nice condition. However, I do agree that just flanking when you can is better than either.
I feel that having to take 13 Int is also significant. And you do need a third feat to make the enemy flat-footed to all your party. Combat Expertise is also more-or-less deadweight. Shaken is also a nice condition. However, I do agree that just flanking when you can is better than either.
13 INT is still cheap in the point buy system. While I see your logic for dumping INT, the Skill Monkey doesn't dump INT.
Combat Expertise sadly is mostly dead weight. I still don't understand why it got nerfed so hard when Power Attack got so improved.
Greater Feint is very circumstantial. If you have a group with more than one Rogue around, especially an archery Rogue, it's godlike. You set up the Feint, get your sneak attack in, then the rain of arrow-ey death appears. Scary stuff.
I feel that having to take 13 Int is also significant. And you do need a third feat to make the enemy flat-footed to all your party. Combat Expertise is also more-or-less deadweight. Shaken is also a nice condition. However, I do agree that just flanking when you can is better than either.13 INT is still cheap in the point buy system. While I see your logic for dumping INT, the Skill Monkey doesn't dump INT.
Combat Expertise sadly is mostly dead weight. I still don't understand why it got nerfed so hard when Power Attack got so improved.
Greater Feint is very circumstantial. If you have a group with more than one Rogue around, especially an archery Rogue, it's godlike. You set up the Feint, get your sneak attack in, then the rain of arrow-ey death appears. Scary stuff.
Yep, Greater Feint is definitely circumstantial, I agree--but even though the benefit of Flat-Footing vs the whole party is only slight if there's no other Rogue, we have to consider that a point in Shatter Defenses's advantage if the feinter doesn't get Greater Feint.
As for Combat Expertise, yeah, it was nerfed pretty badly. As for why Power Attack got better and Combat Expertise got worse, Power Attack is relatively easy to balance because it is a trade-off between one part of offense and another part of offense. Since Combat Expertise is instead a trade-off of offense to defense, it's much harder to gauge. For instance, WotC published an "Improved Combat Expertise" feat in Complete Warrior that is gonzo broken for bruiser monsters at later levels, since it has no limit on how much you can use it, and bruiser monsters will often hit easily enough to Combat Expertise their AC (and touch AC too) into unhittable ranges. Pathfinder erred on the side of caution, and they wanted to remove slowdown from deciding how much to Expertise, but in doing so, they took away a lot of the corner cases that made Combat Expertise useful in the first place. Ah well, c'est la guerre.
Here's a challenge.
An optimization guide for a party. As in, what classes you should choose, and what tactics you should employ and equipment you should get if you want a stealth, tactical or magic-weilding party (etc).
That should take a while!
Here's a challenge.
An optimization guide for a party. As in, what classes you should choose, and what tactics you should employ and equipment you should get if you want a stealth, tactical or magic-weilding party (etc).
That should take a while!
Yeah, boy that one would take pages upon pages. When I'm actually playing, I don't usually follow my own sorts of guides and optimise the PC out fully, but I do try to help the group work together if we can (I usually play something that buffs everyone else so that others can shine). I could at least provide anecdotes of things that I've seen work in the past (like how our three-man group with blitzes through dungeons in Curse of the Crimson Throne).
Another funny one that people mentioned in another thread was an optimisation guide to making characters optimised for having good roleplaying opportunities rather than being more powerful. It was probably in jest, but there's some serious value that could be found in something like that.
Alchemist! Love those guys.