The problem in question is this. What action does a stealth check use?
The rules are not clear enough on this and its causing a dispute between me and my rogue/shadowdancer player.Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth
check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate
action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged
attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.Now the problem is my player is claiming he can roll a stealth check in every round (shadowdancer, hide in plain sight) and attack away. But I am claiming he must move in order to do a stealth check.
Any official clarification to this? I searched whole day but coudnt find response to this specific question.
Thanks in advance
Not official answer, but having to move to be 'stealthy' seems a bit silly to me. He attacks, then makes a new check. Of course there would be, imo, quite a few bonuses to the check to spot the guy attacking.
Also, not official, but my interpretation is that the shadowdancer is really scary in dim light!
With "Hide In Plain Sight", the character can hide even while being observed as long as he's within 10' of dim light.
I would allow only the first attack per round to count as "stealthed" since the Stealth skill specifically calls out hiding after a ranged attack, calling it "Sniping".
At most I would require a 5' step.
To counter this, have monsters with full darkvision or set encounters where there's no dim light. Otherwise, I think you have to prepare for lots of sneak attack damage.
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Point out that he can't use Stealth when observed. So if he is trying to hide from the guy he is attacking, it automatically fails because the guy he is attacking is observing him.
IIRC HiPS let's you hide even while being observed.
And to the above comment regarding bonuses, you incur a -20 penalty to your stealth check for "sniping."
So I think the intent of the "part of movement" bit, is that if you are planning to move from visible to invisible, it requires you to change location. Either you move behind some cover or some area of concealment etc. People normally cannot just vanish while standing still (although hide-in-plain-sight comes close to allowing this)
If were GM, I would allow the shadowdancer to open with sneak attack (breaking stealth), get in the iterive attacks without sneak attack damage, and the stealth again with 5 foot step. In the end, if the SD still wanted all the attacks to do sneak attack damage, there would need to be something that kept that victim flatfooted through out the attack, such as flanking or being prone.
Edit- ninja'd ... Appropos, really :)
Honest truth, it's much less sneak attack damage than flanking, and it doesn't even grant the +2 attack bonus of flanking on the attacks after the stealth revealed. The only advantage is it can work without a partner, and it's much more survivable than slugging it out in straight up melee.(As a note, I personally let stealth count for both swings if an attacker is Two-Weapon Fighting, but that is very much house-rule territory
Well would you qualify someone who attacks from stealth as an "invisible combatant" for that first strike? If so they would get a +2 from that.
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Well would you qualify someone who attacks from stealth as an "invisible combatant" for that first strike? If so they would get a +2 from that.
I would actually classify them as a "Super-deadly invisible ninja".
I personally when I heard about that +2 on attack from being invisible allowed it to work with stealth.
Anyway thanks for the responses I apriciate it. From what I read from you I'm gonna house it a bit like this:
First two strikes count for sneak attack damage if the attacker has two-wep fighting (Mainly for the cool factor, and not to leave the rogue pooped if he misses the only attack he was suposed to sneak attack).
You can stealth but it must be a part of some sort of movement(a 5' step is enough).
You can stealth after you attack, even with a full attack action. But you need to take a 5' step, and you have a -20 penalty as for sniping.Give me your 0.02 on this way to deal with it :)
I was going to suggest against the -20 till I found the chart on pg. 563 for detecting invisible creatures (Note for Paizo: there seems to be a typo in the chart, as the -40 should probably be a +40 as described in the invisibility spell). So by the description the perceptionDC/stealth-roll of an invisible creature is 20. To notice the location of an invisible creature that is speaking or attack is a -20 to that DC/Stealth-roll, which is in keeping with sniping. A sniping person is behind concealment and is trying to not give his location away, much like an attacking invisible creature. Both suffer the penalty to "stealth" for the action they have just performed. Mind you the sniper has to spend a move action because he is attempting to remain hidden without access to a supernatural vanish ability.
This chart seems to suggest some other nice modifiers for other actions, such as charging, moving at full speed, standing still (the borked one). It seems like a good way to adjudicate stealthy actions.
Well would you qualify someone who attacks from stealth as an "invisible combatant" for that first strike? If so they would get a +2 from that.I would actually classify them as a "Super-deadly invisible ninja".
well which do you think is easier to hit, a person who knows where you are but doesn't have their guard up. or someone who doesn't even know that you are in the room next to them and doesn't have their guard up?
When someone is flanked they suffer that +2 because they have to constantly watch out for the person behind them. An invisible attacker get this bonus because the victim can't see where the next attack is coming from. A stealthed attacker seems to me to be the same as an invisible attacker, until after he breaks stealth, i.e. after he attacks ... after.
StuffOh, I don't have any problem with that ruling, I just saw an opportunity to use the catchphrase "Super-Deadly invisible ninja", so I took it. :D
Ah! Well I can't argue with that :D
The problem in question is this. What action does a stealth check use?
The rules are not clear enough on this and its causing a dispute between me and my rogue/shadowdancer player.
As soon as he attacks he is seen, so at most he's getting one sneak attack in on a full attack action which is far worse than what happens should he get a flank.
Generally shadowdancer/rogues like to spring attack and only be visible for a brief time when making that one attack.
So what's really to worry here?
-James
Well the sneak attack is nice, but really, a shadowdancer's disappearing act is really defensive measure. Alone against a single opponent, its a good way to get multiple sneak attacks, but when employed in larger combats the primary benefit is that every round the shadowdancer is not there to be targeted. Now its possible that the melee combatant might delay his action and try to counter attack the SD, but since he doesn't know when the SD is going to strike, I'd say its hard for him to interrupt the next attack. This all gets into very murky action economy territory.
I don't know, can someone delay an action to counter attack an invisible opponent?
Some questions to add to this thread.
Hide in Plain Sight:
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
So...if a Shadowdancer is being observed while he "hides," he takes no penalties to his stealth check. It is just a straight check,not like sniping?
Thanks
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As I understand, being hidden doesn't stop you being attacked if an opponent knows your location, you'd just have total concealment... Hence the Invisibility rules.
Dex modifier to AC only counts if you can react to the attack. Thus attacking from hidden prevents dex, allowing sneak attack.
Hide in plain sight is a strange ability. No movement is required, but if you attacked from the same spot you were in before its not much of a suprise. Still if you haven't found your opponent, you have no knowledge of if they are in that space or not and so would still be subject to sneak attack.
Normally a suprise action is only a standard action, but this occurs outside the usual round of play. To hide when sniping you can only make a single attack however.
So I would summise you could hide in plain sight after an attack if you didn't make a full attack. You would get your full attack with sneak damage if you didn't hide.
The rules are certainly not clear however.
Hide in Plain Sight simply means you can use stealth more often, it doesn't bypass negatives for trying to stealth while attacking, nor does it reduce what kind of action is needed to hide. I agree that a 5 ft step is enough to allow a stealth check.
Attacking someone who is not aware of you at all, 1 on 1, is indeed performed during a surprise round:
"The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants
are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens
before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest
to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their
opponents each take a standard or move action during
the surprise round. You can also take free actions during
the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no
surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at
the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round.
Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not
acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC."
With just Hide in Plain Sight, you can attack once, and then you're done, no new move action to hide whatsoever. I recall there being a mention, maybe in 3.5 of stealth modifiers including attacking, but I can't find anything but sniping, which clearly states you need a move action to remain hidden.
The only way to full attack someone with sneak attacks using just stealth (no trips, invisibility, flanking ect.) is to get yourself the pounce ability and charge them in a surprise round, because they're flat footed for the entire surprise round, and a charge can be done during a surprise round/while staggered.
Once combat has begun, your Shadow Dancer can simply full attack with the first being a sneak attack, and use the 5 ft step to hide, until his opponent is dead. If his opponent is smart enough to move even 10 ft every round, the Shadow Dancer will be forced to go into open combat occasionally or simply wait until his target stands still long enough for another full attack.
So...if a Shadowdancer is being observed while he "hides," he takes no penalties to his stealth check. It is just a straight check,not like sniping?
There is no penalty for the Shadowdancer, or any other class with the ability, who uses HiPS to hide. Now if they are using the Sniping rules they will receive the penalty regardless of HiPS, but that is because of Sniping not HiPS and a character with HiPS would almost never need to Snipe.
Check out some of the linked threads HERE for further info.
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Hide in plain sight is a strange ability. No movement is required...
No movement is required for regular Stealth either.
So I would summise you could hide in plain sight after an attack if you didn't make a full attack.
Why would taking a full attack matter? Stealth is a non-action that is normally taken as part of a movement. Movement does not equal move action. A full attack and then Stealth is perfectly reasonable.
You would get your full attack with sneak damage if you didn't hide.
How exactly would someone get their full attack with Sneak Attack damage from using HiPS? When you attack you come out of Stealth, which means only the first attack would get Sneak Attack. Then the rest of the attacks would be normal damage. After that he could use Stealth with HiPS and possibly take a 5' step to reposition unseen.
Hide in Plain Sight simply means you can use stealth more often, it doesn't bypass negatives for trying to stealth while attacking, nor does it reduce what kind of action is needed to hide. I agree that a 5 ft step is enough to allow a stealth check.
In PF there is no penalty for attacking while using Stealth, it is simply impossible. You can use Stealth to sneak up on them but when you attack they automatically become aware of you. However, with HiPS you can just become hidden again.
With just Hide in Plain Sight, you can attack once, and then you're done, no new move action to hide whatsoever.
Stealth doesn't require a move action to perform. It is usually no action, but normally (not always) taken as part of a movement. The only time it takes up your move action is with Sniping which is a whole different thing. Stealth itself does not require any action.
The only way to full attack someone with sneak attacks using just stealth (no trips, invisibility, flanking ect.) is to get yourself the pounce ability and charge them in a surprise round, because they're flat footed for the entire surprise round, and a charge can be done during a surprise round/while staggered.
Or to attack them in the first round of combat before they have had a turn, when they would also be flat-footed.
With just Hide in Plain Sight, you can attack once, and then you're done, no new move action to hide whatsoever.Stealth doesn't require a move action to perform. It is usually no action, but normally (not always) taken as part of a movement. The only time it takes up your move action is with Sniping which is a whole different thing. Stealth itself does not require any action.
You quoted me out of context, I was still referring to the suprise round.
Normally infers always with some exceptions, which are mentioned within those specific exceptions. Without a mention that it DOESN'T require movement, any stealth check requires movement, otherwise players would simply stealth between every attack during a full round action, because that rule is the only thing stopping them from doing it with HiPS + dim light.
Good point. In the first round, you CAN full attack someone whose initiative you beat that didn't get to act in the surprise round. Logically, enough sneak attack dice and HiPS with a good initiative, you can assassinate someone before they can act at all. But my point remains, you're not using stealth in the first full round to deal sneak attack damage.
Thanks for the clarification Shadowlord.
No problem.
I see from your link the whole stealth issue is a slippery one that has outfox more than just me :)
Yes, many more.
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You quoted me out of context, I was still referring to the suprise round.
Sorry, disregard.
Normally infers always with some exceptions, which are mentioned within those specific exceptions. Without a mention that it DOESN'T require movement, any stealth check requires movement, otherwise players would simply stealth between every attack during a full round action, because that rule is the only thing stopping them from doing it with HiPS + dim light.
I see what you are saying. My point was that "movement" does not mean "move action" it could be any movement at all, which includes more than just move actions. Also, in some cases the need for "movement" to use Stealth is ridiculous anyway. For instance: I am standing in dim light just around the corner of a building, I am not using Stealth. I see you walking up the street in my direction; you haven't seen me yet even though I am not actively trying to avoid you. Now, I have to roll Stealth to avoid being detected as you walk by, but I am already in dim light and at present have at least partial cover. Besides the fact that you haven't noticed me yet, I already have concealment and cover, it is stupid to say that I "have to make some movement" in order to use Stealth in this scenario. At the same time, I wouldn't let a Shadowdancer use Stealth as a free action between each of his attacks in a full attack either.
Good point. In the first round, you CAN full attack someone whose initiative you beat that didn't get to act in the surprise round. Logically, enough sneak attack dice and HiPS with a good initiative, you can assassinate someone before they can act at all. But my point remains, you're not using stealth in the first full round to deal sneak attack damage.
Yes your point is valid; I wasn't countering it but adding to it. If the Rogue can get a surprise round and first initiative in the first round of combat, the fight will be ugly for his enemy.
Just something to note regarding Hide in Plain Sight:
You must be within 10' of dim light to use it and very often (but not always) this means your opponent is within dim light as well.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness.
and
A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
There are many a rogue/shadowdancer (or just rogue!) that forget about this. Of course, it's mitigated somewhat by Shadow Strike from the APG which becomes almost automatic for these builds.
Just something to note regarding Hide in Plain Sight:
You must be within 10' of dim light to use it and very often (but not always) this means your opponent is within dim light as well.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness.and
A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.There are many a rogue/shadowdancer (or just rogue!) that forget about this. Of course, it's mitigated somewhat by Shadow Strike from the APG which becomes almost automatic for these builds.
That is very true and a good point. I think a lot of players forget, or just plain ignore, this point in the rules. There are a few ways around it though. The Shadowdancer gains Darkvision which will solve your problem. Also from what I hear, I haven't bought it yet, the APG has two feats that serve to mitigate the issue, Shadow Strike and one other. I think the other has Blind Fighting as a prerequisite. There are also other magical means of gaining Low-light vision or Darkvision, either temporarily or permanently. Blindsight is also a good remedy and there are a couple ways to gain that, especially if you allow 3.5 materials in your game.
I think this thread has addressed the OP's original question pretty well. I tried to resist, and ignore what was posted so long ago before Phazzle resurrected this thread, but I just couldn't, so:
To counter this, have monsters with full darkvision or set encounters where there's no dim light. Otherwise, I think you have to prepare for lots of sneak attack damage.
I don't think Darkvision or Low-light vision override HiPS. For detailed reasons why that is visit HERE.
And to the above comment regarding bonuses, you incur a -20 penalty to your stealth check for "sniping."
There is really no reason to believe this from anything in Stealth or in the HiPS descriptions but in case you do there are some pretty good debates about it HERE and HERE. The short answer is Sniping and using HiPS are two completely different things.
I was going to suggest against the -20 till I found the chart on pg. 563 for detecting invisible creatures (Note for Paizo: there seems to be a typo in the chart, as the -40 should probably be a +40 as described in the invisibility spell). So by the description the perceptionDC/stealth-roll of an invisible creature is 20. To notice the location of an invisible creature that is speaking or attack is a -20 to that DC/Stealth-roll, which is in keeping with sniping. A sniping person is behind concealment and is trying to not give his location away, much like an attacking invisible creature. Both suffer the penalty to "stealth" for the action they have just performed. Mind you the sniper has to spend a move action because he is attempting to remain hidden without access to a supernatural vanish ability.
Moving and attacking doesn't give a -20 penalty to the Stealth roll of the invisible attacker. It gives a -20 penalty to the base +40 bonus they get to Stealth for being completely invisible. It is not like Sniping. The Sniper takes a -20 penalty to his actual Stealth roll to remain unnoticed with no magical aid and only basic concealment/cover to keep him from being noticed.
Invisibility gives a +40 to Stealth checks made while you are standing still and silent. There is a -5 penalty to that when moving at half speed, which leaves +35 to Stealth from the invisibility. There is a -10 penalty for moving, which still leaves +30 to Stealth. There is a -20 penalty to that for running or charging, which still leaves +20 to Stealth. There is also a -20 penalty for attacking, which also still leaves +20 to Stealth. Now if you were moving full speed -10 and attacking -20 you would only receive a +10 to your Stealth roll, but you would still be invisible so you would still get to roll Stealth and the roll itself would suffer absolutely no penalty. In fact you still get +10 from being invisible even with all the penalties from moving fast and attacking. It is not the same as Sniping and definitely not the same as HiPS.
HIPS vs Sniping...
Assuming you are hidden from your intended victim.
If you want to remain hidden while attacking, then you have to take the -20 sniping penalty. If you succeed, then all of your attacks get the benefit of stealth. If you fail, then only your first attack counts as being stealthed and you now count as being observed.
If you are being observed, you have HiPS, and are in the right place(dim light or favored terrain), then you can restealth at no penalty after you are done attacking even if you are observed.
Essentially sniping allows you to remain hidden while attacking. HiPS lets you hide after the attack no matter what.
These statements are accurate.
If you are being observed, you have HiPS, and are in the right place(dim light or favored terrain), then you can restealth at no penalty after you are done attacking even if you are observed. Essentially sniping allows you to remain hidden while attacking. HiPS lets you hide after the attack no matter what.
This one is not:
If you want to remain hidden while attacking, then you have to take the -20 sniping penalty. If you succeed, then all of your attacks get the benefit of stealth. If you fail, then only your first attack counts as being stealthed and you now count as being observed.
You may only use ranged attacks when Sniping and you may only attack once, there is no "all of your attacks," or "only your first attack," there is only one ranged attack and it always benefits from Stealth since you are starting off hidden. If you succeed your single ranged attack will benefit from Stealth and Sneak Attack damage and you will remain hidden after your attack. If you fail, your single ranged attack will still benefit from Stealth and Sneak Attack damage but you will be plainly visible to anyone looking for you after the attack.
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
So when you are Sniping, you may only use Ranged attacks. And you may only attack once as a Standard Action because your Move Action is taken up by using Stealth after the attack at a -20 penalty to remain unseen.
These statements are accurate.
If you are being observed, you have HiPS, and are in the right place(dim light or favored terrain), then you can restealth at no penalty after you are done attacking even if you are observed. Essentially sniping allows you to remain hidden while attacking. HiPS lets you hide after the attack no matter what.This one is not:
If you want to remain hidden while attacking, then you have to take the -20 sniping penalty. If you succeed, then all of your attacks get the benefit of stealth. If you fail, then only your first attack counts as being stealthed and you now count as being observed.You may only use ranged attacks when Sniping and you may only attack once, there is no "all of your attacks," or "only your first attack," there is only one ranged attack and it always benefits from Stealth since you are starting off hidden. If you succeed your single ranged attack will benefit from Stealth and Sneak Attack damage and you will remain hidden after your attack. If you fail, your single ranged attack will still benefit from Stealth and Sneak Attack damage but you will be plainly visible to anyone looking for you after the attack.
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
So when you are Sniping, you may only use Ranged attacks. And you may only attack once as a Standard Action because your Move Action is taken up by using Stealth after the attack at a -20 penalty to remain unseen.
Meh, that is what I get for going off memory.
Still the advantage of HiPS is that you can avoid the -20 sniping penalty if you meet the requirements.
Another question, regarding a Monk ability (Human Archetype: Wanderer)
The ability in question, quote from d20pfsrd.com:
Disappear Unnoticed (Ex)
At 12th level, the wanderer may use Stealth to hide even while being directly observed or when no cover or concealment is available, as long as he is adjacent to at least one creature of his size or larger, by spending 1 point from his ki pool. This effect lasts until the beginning of the wanderer's next turn and may be continued in consecutive rounds by spending 1 ki point each round.
My questions:
1) Can I use Stealth after a full attack against a medium or larger opponent, if I am adjacent to the opponent?
2) What happens if the opponent leaves the adjacent square, do I become visible?
3) What modifiers would apply to the opposed stealth and perception checks?
Thanks in advance,
Turgan
holy necro batman! this thread was so dead!
probably should have started a new thread for this question.
Probably true, but not the answer I had hoped for...
^
well, if big guy moves away, you lose cover, and are probably auto-spotted.
I don't see how you would get any additional mods for stealth.
i wonder about hiding from the large brute himself...
Anybody else some ideas how the ability is supposed to function?
@IejrIsk: medium guy would be enough. If he takes a five foot step away from the wanderer, he loses his full atack.
Maybe the wanderer could full attack, then dissapear unnoticed with a five foot step. Then the opponent first would have to pinpoint him to attack the square he is in. Of course only if he does not successfully make his perception check.
Hide in plain sight is good enough without giving it full attack sniping by considering a 5 foot step movement.
i believe in the stealth playtest stealth was labled a free action.
Hide in plain sight is good enough without giving it full attack sniping by considering a 5 foot step movement.
I am not sure I understand. My guess: to you "Hide in Plain Sight" and "Dissapear Unnoticed" are basically the same; because I can't use a full attack staying hidden with "Hide in Plain Sight you say it is not possible to take a melee full attack hidden with "Dissapear Unnoticed".
Maybe my guess was wrong; but what I described above has nothing to do with making a full attack while hiding, but to use the ability to hide after a full attack.
Ah, really I hoped for three answers to my three questions.
Thanks for your answers ikarinokami and BigNorseWolf anyhow.
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1) Can I use Stealth after a full attack against a medium or larger opponent, if I am adjacent to the opponent?
Yes. There is no reason why you couldn't.
2) What happens if the opponent leaves the adjacent square, do I become visible?
You lose your source of concealment and no longer qualify for use of the ability. Unless you otherwise qualify for continued use of Stealth you would become plainly visible. If you have some other qualifier, such as concealment or cover of some kind you would probably remain under Stealth.
3) What modifiers would apply to the opposed stealth and perception checks?
There would be no standard modifiers for Stealth or Perception based on the ability itself. There may be modifiers to Stealth or Perception based on the surrounding circumstances.
Hide in plain sight is good enough without giving it full attack sniping by considering a 5 foot step movement.
I may be missinterpreting your statement but it looks to me like you are saying a 5' step doesn't qualify for "movement" to use Stealth. If that is true, there are a few problems with that statement.
1. Stealth doesn't require a movement to be used. The action required for Stealth says:
Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action.
Usually you don't need ANY action at all. If you are standing in an area where you qualify for Stealth and aren't being observed there is no reason you should have to move at all to begin Stealth.
Example: You are in the dark corner of a room when a few guards start to open the door. You are in a dim or dark area, you are not observed, therefore you can roll Stealth right where you stand. It requires no action at all. As long as you don't lose your concealment in that corner and the guards don't spot you, you will remain under Stealth in that corner.
Example 2: You have the monk ability in question, you are standing near a creature your size or larger, you spend a point of Ki to use the ability. Now you qualify to use Stealth, you don't need cover or concealment, and it doesn't matter if you are observed. You may roll Stealth with no additional action required, not even a 5' step. Although you may want to 5' step so your enemies might not know which square you are hiding in.
2. If you do need to use Stealth while moving, such as masking your footsteps to a new location, or if it makes sense to move, such as a 5' step so your enemy might not know which square you're hiding in, you can also use Stealth as part of a "movement" so it takes no seperate action.
This movement is not a specified move or distance. It doesn't say "as part of a Move Action" it's just an unspecified movement of any kind. I believe a 5' step absolutely qualifies as some unspecified form of movement. You are moving.
Example: You are standing in a bright room with no cover or concealment and some guards start opening the door. You roll Stealth to remain quiet "as you move" to a possition that grants cover. You currently have cover, as the guards are on the other side of the door. You are unobserved and moving to a place where even when the guards walk in you will have cover, so you qualify for Stealth. But you have to move around so you are rolling Stealth as part of the movement to mask the sound of that movement, not just to reamin unseen.
Example 2: You are hiding from some guards at night behind a tree. The area is dim. You need to move away from the tree. You roll Stealth while moving away, as to mask you from the eyes of the guards, and mask your foot steps from the ears of the guards. You have concealment so you qualify for this Stealth roll and it's made as part of that movement, not requiring a specific action itself.
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The only time Stealth ever takes any specific action to perform is when you are using it as part of a Sniper attack, in which case it takes up your Move Action.
Thanks very much, Shadowlord. Answers to my questions plus an elaborate inquiry into the stealth rules. I think I see clearer now.
The only time Stealth ever takes any specific action to perform is when you are using it as part of a Sniper attack, in which case it takes up your Move Action.
And isn't that functionally what you're doing by popping out of stealth to attack, hitting someone with a sword, and vanishing again?
Usually you don't need ANY action at all.
Incorrect. Normally (it says it right there) you do not need a SEPARATE action but you make it as part of a move action.
creatures don't qualify as cover for stealth, so i don't know what monk ability you're talking about.
If you have to hold still then just use your move action or do it as part of another action. There's no problem here.
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The only time Stealth ever takes any specific action to perform is when you are using it as part of a Sniper attack, in which case it takes up your Move Action.And isn't that functionally what you're doing by popping out of stealth to attack, hitting someone with a sword, and vanishing again?
Not at all. With HiPS you (as you explained) "pop out of Stealth to attack and vanish again." Sniping is different. If you roll well and if you beat your enemy's Perception, you NEVER leave the cover of Stealth.
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to MAINTAIN YOUR OBSCURED LOCATION.
If you are MAINTAINING your obscured location that means you are NEVER seen and remain essentially under the cover of Stealth through the entire attack sequence. Hence the term "Sniping."
Usually you don't need ANY action at all.Incorrect.
Really?
Action: Usually none.
Normally (it says it right there) you do not need a SEPARATE action but you make it as part of a move action.
Yes, that sentence is in the description, right after the sentence that says "Usually NONE." I stand by my interpretations. Requiring NO SPECIFIC ACTION, is requiring NO SPECIFIC ACTION. It doesn't matter if you later say it's usually taken as part of a movement or not, the fact is it usually requires NO action. As stated in the first sentence of the action requirements.
And in any case, you are still miss-quoting the rules. Stealth is NEVER made as PART of a MOVE ACTION. The rules specifically call out three instances: 1. No action, 2. Movement, and 3. a FULL Move Action for Sniping. That is it.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
There is no instance where Stealth is taken as "part of a move action" as you miss-quoted and the word movement is not specifically defined in the rules. Your wanting it to mean Move Action doesn't make it so, and it is unlikely the writers even intended it to mean that because they do specifically name a Move Action later in the text when refering to Stealth as part of a Sniper attack.
A "movement" could be any number of things to include, moving during a move action, taking a 5' step, or even just standing in my same square and turning sideways to disappear. Movement is undefined in the rules. You ARE moving when you do any of the following things: draw a weapon, wrap a cloak around yourself, take a drink, take a single step within my current square, squat down, flatten yourself against a wall, and/or an endless number of other potentiall things that are all movements.
creatures don't qualify as cover for stealth, so i don't know what monk ability you're talking about.
Individual creatures usually don't, crowds do. At any case, he quoted the specific monk ability he was talking about and what Archetype it's part of in his original post:
Another question, regarding a Monk ability (Human Archetype: Wanderer)
The ability in question, quote from d20pfsrd.com:
Disappear Unnoticed (Ex)
At 12th level, the wanderer may use Stealth to hide even while being directly observed or when no cover or concealment is available, as long as he is adjacent to at least one creature of his size or larger, by spending 1 point from his ki pool. This effect lasts until the beginning of the wanderer's next turn and may be continued in consecutive rounds by spending 1 ki point each round.
If you have to hold still then just use your move action or do it as part of another action. There's no problem here.
He doesn't have to hold still though. He has to be adjacent to a creature of his size or greater to use the ability but there is a whole turn full of actions he could take before having to spend a ki point and roll for Stealth. For Instance: He could take a move action to move up to an enemy, punch that enemy with a standard action, then spend a ki point most likely a swift action, and roll Stealth using no specific action.
...
Additionally, IF I am wrong in my interpretation than please explain this:
Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.
If Stealth MUST be part of a movement or be a Move Action in EVERY case, then how can Invisibility grant you a +40 on Stealth Checks when you are immobile? I don't know how you interpret immobile but I take it to mean that you have not taken a Standard Action, Move Action, or 5' Step. In fact you probably haven't done much beyond breathing and blinking. If Stealth checks are impossible without some form of moving around (or according to your quote, being part of a Move Action) how do I make a Stealth check and get +40 to it while standing immobile?
And before you say, "just blow a Move Action to roll Stealth and stand still," remember the only time Stealth requires a Move Action is specifically when you are Sniping, that is done as a series of actions, and you are definitely NOT immobile during your Standard Action attack. There is no place where it says, Stealth usually requires NO action, BUT you can choose to use your Move Action while standing still to make a Stealth check. I suppose you could if you really, really wanted to... but it would be stupid because there are no rules requiring it.