The problem is that even if I took a 4th level adventure and doubled (or even tripled) the number of opponents, those bad guys still have a +5 to hit and 20 hp. They will go down in a single round and miss on 90% of their attacks.The only thing wrong that I'm seeing is that you're underestimating the power of multiple monsters.
Agreed. If a big bad fighter can dish out 20 hp of damage with one shot, as we know they can, then whether a single bad guy has 8, 12, 15, 18, or 20 hp, they go down in one shot. Six 3 hp opponents - take six rounds (cleave and similar excepted).
Furthermore, it's tactics - "flanking" of course, but more than that, putting heat on other characters, spreading out so small bursts don't get everyone, etc. If the PCs can always array themselves with tanks in front, casters supporting, hitters flanking, then they can bring maximum effectiveness to bear. If there's a melee threat on everyone, not so much.
Invisible rust monster. Color Spray. Six goblins with alchemist fire. Pick one and giggle. Hell pick all three and be a sick bastard.
Oh good lord come on, he doesn't have an ultra killer party, they're a normal 6 person 20 point party with decent gear. It's a dime a dozen.
What Mr. Fishy said that all three was sick.
TIER FISHY AIR BREATHERS!!! Improved Invisible rust monsters with the advanced template, barkskin and a haste spell. Ruin their lives!
TIER FISHY AIR BREATHERS!!! Improved Invisible rust monsters with the advanced template, barkskin and a haste spell. Ruin their lives!
Great idea, thanks! MAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I recently ran The Demon Within module (11th lvl 3.5E) for a group of 8, 30 point buy 12th level characters (their gear was sub par so it toned them down a notch or two) basically by using the x2 rule. I changed one demon that I don't have a book for, from a 9HD 3.5E creature to a 11HD PF Hezrou any place they popped up and basically doubled everything but the last boss. The Module went great and a babau even got the best of one held PC.
I think redcelt32 brought it to the point:
I think the most important question is one that hasn't been examined yet- are the players enjoying the game? Or are they bored and distracted?
Are your Party and you enjoy the game?
party and you = great, no change neededparty yes, but not you = not good, RPG shouldbe enjoyable for all, adapt your encounters, try other kind of encounters, playstyles
party no, you yes = talk to your player and ask whats wrong from their point of view
non of both = round table meeting and try to find the reasons
PPRPG isn't about killing the party/monster, it's about having fun with your friends (laugh together and not laugh about them^^).
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Aid Another
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.
Those 6 orcs?
2 attacking, each of those 2 aided by 2 more, flanking.Orc +4 attack. Flanking +2, Aid Another +2(x2) = +10 to hit
The idea that nothing can possibly hit your AC 22 character except on a 20 is weak. Orcs are CR 1/3 and if you give them enough to fight they WILL hit. If five of them aid while one attacks he would have +16 to hit.
At the same time the guy with a wand of scorching ray would be taking -4 to hit for all those involved in melee (unless he has point blank and precise shot) and potentially another +4 AC for those granted soft cover by allies who are in the way of his line of effect.
And the point of that challenge at that CR isn't even to give them a serious hurting. It is meant to make them expend resources. The orcs will hit at least a time or two doing some damage which will need to be healed. The guy may have burned a charge off his wand. Maybe someone cast a spell to end the fight faster. Success. That is all you are going for as a standard encounter. They will face several of those encounters draining down their resources before they face a real challenge of a "boss" type. At that point they won't be flush with healing spells and full roster of offensive magic making the climax more challenging. And considering your guys are 6 players at 4th level with high stats (making them APL 5-6) the challenge is going to be something like CR 8. A CR 8 challenge should have no problem punching through that AC. You are looking at around +15 to hit there as a base. Throw in a couple of low powered minions to prevent them from concentrating on the boss exclusively, use terrain to your advantage, and it is going to be fine.
Of course, if we went back to 3.5, the clerics couldn't heal all day long and would have to spend a lot of their wealth on Cure Light Wounds wands and have no money for full plate armor; the wizard wouldn't have a ton of magic missiles for free and would have to buy a wand (no Scorching Ray).
I don't see how going back to 3.5 will fix any of these; maybe apart from the clerics paying for CLW wands instead of using channel energy? Full plate armor costs about the same in PF as in 3.5, as does wand of scorching ray.
In any case, multiple encounters per day goes a long way towards depleting the clerics' uses of channel energy and the mage's use of the scorching ray wand.
The main thing, however, is that any encounter at party level will essentially be a walkover. That's how the game is designed, even for normal 4-player groups with lower ability scores. The party should be able to do 4 or 5 encounters at party level in a day before resting. I get the feeling that you think an encounter at party level should be harder than it is meant to be?
For hard encounters, you need party level + 2 or more, and for encounters where someone might die, you need party level + 4 or so.
(this is also the same in 3.5 and PF, by the way)
Another thing to consider is if you are running a 3.5 adventure with the monster statblocks not updated, the PC's are likely going to trounce the opposition, moreso than if they were still 3.5 characters. All the classes got a boost of some kind or another. This, along with the CR issues may explain some of the disparity you are seeing.
Not knowing that some obscure rule or monster has changed in pathfinder is a common occurrence for DnD players who are moving to pathfinder. The game is complex. Much like the move from 3.0 to 3.5 it will take period of adjustment. Keep in mind that the CR system is totally different, and any encounter that matches the party APL is a cakewalk.
One thing to do for next time is to ignore CR, and just look at a monsters % chance to score a hit on your most armored PC. If its about 50% then you know that monster is going to at least dish out a bit of damage before going down. Ogres with class levels are a good example. Barbarian ogres armed with ogre hooks can be very mean combatants.
Also look at how much HP damage your party can throw out in a single round, on average. As that gives your the idea of the monsters staying power. Monsters that are entrenched generally have their environment set up to provide them the advantage (at least if they are intelligent monsters). Hopefully this helps them last longer against the PCs as well. Well placed traps can tie up a PC for a few rounds reducing the number total party actions.
If you want to challenge the party with 1 monster its gotta be big, and powerful and likely to take someone out in a single round. That keeps your clerics busy just keeping the other characters up. The single monster fight is really best for a climax fight, as they require people to be spending their most valuable resources to stay in the game.
Also remember that the party is spending resources to overcome these challenges as well. Sometimes DM's that have had a hard time challenging the players over compensate and throw everything but the kitchen-sink in an effort to make them fear him/her again. A simple challenge here and there can break up the tension between difficult fights, and can also be a good form of revealing plot. Perhaps that goblin you just smashed had info that would make the next challenge easier.
Weapon Spec? Again: Check the rules!!! [\QUOTE]
What's wrong with a 4th level fighter who has the prerequisite weapon focus feat from taking Weapon Specialization? Is the Hardcover Core Rules wrong?
I believe the poster replied to your earlier post when you said they were 3rd level, and then described the warrior as having Weapon Spec before you clarified that they had just turned 4th.
Against the owlbear we had only 4 members - a standard sized party. One of those party members can't inflict damage. So 3 party members attacking killed the owlbear.
You keep only counting damage output. Healing counts, buffs count. The person not doing damage to the monster is still helping the party win.
Now, in the case of the owlbear, your description tells me it was lucky rolls on the PCs' part, and a poor roll on the owlbear's, so it's possible your non-damaging cleric in fact did nothing in that fight. But that's only true if, during his turn, he said "I do nothing." If he even cast a bless spell, he helped the party win.
If the group is truly functioning at APL 7 due to slightly better equipment, 2 extra party members, slightly higher stats, and the presence of an additional cleric, then I suppose I should run them through 6th or 7th level adventures.
I don't think you'd be too out of line with a 6th level adventure. The only thing I'd be wary of is the "boss" monster encounters. Whereas your party is pretty tough, a boss for a 6th level dungeon is likely to be a CR11 or 12. An adult black dragon will hit that 22 AC every time (barring a natural 1) with his main attack, and I bet the fighters and clerics can't really hope to avoid 12d6 acid damage when it has a Reflex save DC of 22.
"Wait... What module are you running?A Goodman Games module "The Mysterious Tower." (It wasn't that good.) I used it for one trap and two combat encounters - both of which were trounced. After that I started creating my own encounters, which worked only somewhat better.
Your last few posts have both clarified some things and confused me. I was working on the (false) assumption that you were a relatively new DM. I then took the assumption, which may or may not be true, that what you really want is to be able to run purchased modules without having to modify them at all. As a DM who works a very demanding full-time job and has wife, kids and other commitments to take up most of my free time, I definitely sympathize. If that's the case, I strongly recommend sticking with the Pathfinder APs and using the 15-point buy or rolled up characters via a method that will produce something similar. That should solve your game balance problems without requiring additional DM labor.
However, your comment above that you have already started creating your own encounters runs counter to that assumption. Obviously you are prepared to do some work for the campaign. If so, then myriad posters here have given some excellent advice on how to rebalance things. I'd recommend picking one that sounds good and giving it a go again.
Whatever you choose to do, good luck to you and good gaming.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I have skimmed this (don't want to read all three pages), so if I repeat something, I apologize, but I wanted to comment on what you just posted:
If you're running Pathfinder characters agains 3.5 encounters, your group will destroy "difficult" encounters with regularity. I found this out while running Rise of the Runelords. They had pretty much cake-walked their way through most of the first two books. I was looking forward to the last encounter in the second module: one that is dubbed by many of the posters on this board as one of the deadliest encounters in the series, earning the solo monster in that encounter the moniker "TPK Xanesha." My group handled her with ease.
Wanting to know what I was doing wrong, I started doing research, and found out that RotRL was written for 3.5 rules, and that this would have a pretty significant impact on challenges. I had no idea (and am finding out the same from a lot of players and DMs for that path). If I had updated her to PF rules, and made sure she matched the CR as listed in the PFRPG Corebook, I suspect it wouldn't have been as easy a fight.
At any rate, I have since made sure to update everything in that path to PFRPG rules. If it's a smallish encounter, I do what another poster suggested above, and simply apply the quick fix of an advanced template. My group is now challenged on a much more regular basis.
If the stuff you're running is written for 3.5, do yourself the favor of making the changes to PFRPG. It'll make a difference.
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Hmm. The 3.5 material is adding to your challenge discrepancy problem. PF characters are a little more powerful than their 3.5 equivalents. Then you have 6, then they have 20 point buy. None of that is a big deal. Your game can play just fine, but you just have to tinker with it a little bit.
This is the simple advanced creature template people have been talking about. You should at the least consider applying it to all those monsters. It is extremely easy to use and if you have no time requires no prep work if you just write it down on a note card and use it on the fly. Use the "quick" version.
Advanced Creature (CR +1)
Creatures with the advanced template are fiercer and more powerful than their ordinary cousins.
Quick Rules: +2 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +4 to AC and CMD; +2 hp/HD.
Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores.
This should roughly balance the 20 point build, evening the playing field. Then you still want to adjust a little for the 6 person party.
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Also- the Pathfinder Reference Document is free to use. Look up your monster on there and print out the PF version for game night. You'll find poison is way tougher, undead are more sturdy and other things as you go. Sometimes the CR is different so make sure you are still in line with what you want.
To challenge the 6 PC party at 4th level the Owlbear is really not enough. I'd rather use a mated pair and attempt to grapple - Owlbear has +14 CMB for that as opposed to mere +8 attack (yes, the improved grab is there, but it requires to hit with standard attacks first).
Toward the gelatinous cube I'd just say that it certainly not a monster that would chase the party around the dungeon. It's more like a semi-mobile hazard. It should sit just behind a corner and move to engulf any sir klanksalot that happens to walk by. A nasty variant would be a falling cube, if it received climb speed along with the advanced template (which could advance the perception DC to spot the cube to 17... now add darkness and some distance and you have a deadly trap for tin cans). Slams are rather weak, so I wouldn't really try to use them unless you used them as touch attacks instead. Why tryind to slam for additional 1d6 physical damage when you can just burn them with your acid and attempt paralysis with but a gentle caress?
I think I will check with my group - see if they prefer to let me audit their characters to be within the acceptible framework of PF or to restart the game with a very strict character generation rule. Unfortunately, this will probably mean 4e because it has a character generator and I can't trust my players to make their characters correctly without one.
Have you tried PCGen for character generation? http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
It has good support for Pathfinder for creating player characters using the core rulebook. Support for the Bestiary should work if you download and install the updated data set, for ease of updating monsters, too.
I think I will check with my group - see if they prefer to let me audit their characters to be within the acceptible framework of PF or to restart the game with a very strict character generation rule. Unfortunately, this will probably mean 4e because it has a character generator and I can't trust my players to make their characters correctly without one.Have you tried PCGen? http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
It has good support for Pathfinder for creating player characters using the core rulebook. Support for the Bestiary should be finished soon, for ease of updating monsters, too.
Uh... while I've used PC Gen a lot in the past, the current build has a load of bugs in it for Pathfinder. I was having issues like it was not calculating hit points or armor class correctly. I don't have the list of specific issues I was having with it in front of me, but it was enough that I've stopped using it. A friend of mine was having similar issues so I know it's not just my install (not to mention I did a reinstall anyway).
I am sure these issues will be fixed and probably be updated when they do the Bestiary update, I can't recommend PC Gen right now.
Personally I recommend the Excel generator, sCoreGen.
A lot of people like HeroLab, and you can make 1st level characters in the free demo version, but you can't save character sheets in demo. I have my issues with it... I already bought the $30 program (I bought it for na M&M game) and I refuse to pay an additional $35 for being the privelege of able to save Pathfinder character sheets and full access to OGL data that since it is OGL, should be free, since I paid for the licensed part of the software already.
Uh... while I've used PC Gen a lot in the past, the current build has a load of bugs in it for Pathfinder. I was having issues like it was not calculating hit points or armor class correctly. I don't have the list of specific issues I was having with it in front of me, but it was enough that I've stopped using it. A friend of mine was having similar issues so I know it's not just my install (not to mention I did a reinstall anyway).I think I will check with my group - see if they prefer to let me audit their characters to be within the acceptible framework of PF or to restart the game with a very strict character generation rule. Unfortunately, this will probably mean 4e because it has a character generator and I can't trust my players to make their characters correctly without one.Have you tried PCGen? http://pcgen.sourceforge.net
It has good support for Pathfinder for creating player characters using the core rulebook. Support for the Bestiary should be finished soon, for ease of updating monsters, too.
I've been using it (and coding up my own data sets) for years, and when I switched to the Pathfinder set, I didn't see THOSE problems. What I did see was that none of the output sheets show a CMB/CMD value anywhere I can find. And if a Rogue talent has some constant effect, it will calculate the effect into the output, but won't list the talent that granted it anywhere (I could probably fix this by setting a VISIBLE:YES tag somewhere on the talent, but I haven't looked yet, and I shouldn't have had to). But then, my use of it for Pathfinder has been pretty limited so far.
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Stuff about PCGENStuff about PCGEN
I concur about PCGEN. As of right now, its empty of splat material and has a ton of bugs. I used to use it all the time with LG and 3.5. However, until they clean it up I have been using Ogre's excel sheet. Works great!
To the OP: I'm running my group through Rise of the Runelords right now. 6 PC's, playing Pathfinder characters in a 3.5 adventure path. Luckily I found a thread where someone has updated the entire AP for 6 players and Pathfinder.
I've been lurking this thread since it started, hoping for some genuine advice on what to do with 3.5 modules and 6 PC's, since this is my situation and I have a ton of 3.5 modules sitting on the shelf collecting dust. (No sense in letting those old modules go to waste.) I guess it really boils down to how much time you have to adjust the modules. I don't have much time, so spending the money on an AP is definitely worth it for me. I even got a subscription for the Kingmaker path. Which we'll play when ROTR is done.
I even have some old favorites from AD&D that I would love to convert.
I've been lurking this thread since it started, hoping for some genuine advice on what to do with 3.5 modules and 6 PC's, since this is my situation and I have a ton of 3.5 modules sitting on the shelf collecting dust.
I ran a group of 6 pathfinder characters through Savage Tide. I'm in the same position, I didn't have time to do a lot of custom work.
So, I gave all villains +2 to hit, and + 10 hp. Double that if you were a boss monster. Worked great, and easy to deal with.
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It would be worth subscribing to an AP, but I don't want to have to do a ton of additional work on top of paying for it.
I'm pretty sure the style of Kingmaker wouldn't fit our group. Probably too much roleplaying, intrigue and confusing situations.
I want lots of adventure, action, black and white, good vs. evil kind of modules. (Swords and sorcery type.)
Maybe the upcoming jungle AP would work.
Honestly I am thinking from all that you have said so far. I am thinking that 4e might be a better game for you. It strives for balance and high action, with things being black and white. Least so far that's been my experience from it, from the times I have played it. So if that play style appeals to you, then it might be a better fit for you are your players.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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It would be worth subscribing to an AP, but I don't want to have to do a ton of additional work on top of paying for it.
I don't think anyone is saying you should subscribe to an adventure path. I know I was just using my experiance as a reference point. All I was trying to say is that *any* material written for 3.5 is going to be outclassed by Pathfinder PCs. If you're using Goodman Games products, you're throwing fluffy bunnies at the killing machines that are your Pathfinder players. To fix this, we are saying you need to *start* with converting the 3.5 material you have to PFRPG, or apply the advanced templates (or both, seeing as you have 6 players).
If you don't want to do conversion work, buy stuff that Paizo has put out after August of 2009 (anthing put out after that date will be PFRPG ready).
If you don't want to do conversion work, AND you don't want to spend money, then do what you are doing and design your own stuff. Just remember to ramp up for 6 players and the 20 point stat buy.
If you don't want to do conversion work, AND you don't want to spend money, AND you don't want to design your own stuff...
...well...then this turned into an awfully long thread to help someone who doesn't seem to really want help...
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It would be worth subscribing to an AP, but I don't want to have to do a ton of additional work on top of paying for it.
I'm pretty sure the style of Kingmaker wouldn't fit our group. Probably too much roleplaying, intrigue and confusing situations.
I want lots of adventure, action, black and white, good vs. evil kind of modules. (Swords and sorcery type.)
Maybe the upcoming jungle AP would work.
I heartily recommend Rise of the Runelords, as its (IMO) very black and white, classic bad guys, classic adventures reminiscent of 1st and 2nd ed DND days. Yes you will have to convert them to Pathfinder, which 90% of the time is adding CMB/CMD and adjusting the number of feats if they have character levels. If you want to do a true conversion, which isnt required to challenge characters, you can add bloodlines to sorcerer types, etc. You are going to have to modify any written material you pick up, even it its adding numbers, merely because of your greater than the standard 4 player party size.
IMO, Rise of the Runelords doesnt have quite the same smoothly flowing perfect continuity that exists in newer APs, but there is literally more fan and DM generated material for this AP, than there is info in the AP books, including side treks, maps, illustrations, handouts, etc. Some of my players are cynical veteran players and they have been pretty amped so far by the storyline and villians.
I refer you *HERE* if you want to take advantage of the hard work another DM put into converting the AP to a Pathfinder 6-player party
Anyway, my 2 cents.
You could also try Legacy of Fire, as I have heard that is quite good, though I can't speak to it personally. I do own Curse of the Crimson Throne and Council of Thieves, and they are also both excellent, but as they have a lot of urban adventure and intrique, I wouldn't call them black and white bad guys, they are more like max your sense motive and sleuth who is evil and what they are up to.
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A Goodman Games module "The Mysterious Tower." (It wasn't that good.) I used it for one trap and two combat encounters - both of which were trounced. After that I started creating my own encounters, which worked only somewhat better.
There's 2 other owlbear encounters - a mated pair, and an owlbear with 2 young.
It also shows the Gelatinous Cube as a mere EL3, which is also a slam dunk for your group, even if they were 4 PCs of level 2.
The ooze should have had a pretty good chance to jump whoever first walked into Room 26, especially since the shriekers in the earlier room would have been making a ton of noise. It's basically a DC15 Perception check for whoever goes first into that room, or surprise, the character actually steps INTO the cube.
From this module, give the Djinni, or 4 animated coffins with 10 skeletons, or 2 earth elementals a try, as those are some of the more difficult encounters. If the party is having an easy time with a given room.
Even still, if you completely ignore its PF vs 3.X, you'd want to probably soup up those encounters since you have a party of 6 with better-than-usual statistics.
The earth elementals for example - Instead of 2, use 3. Instead of using the printed 30hp, give them their maximum of 44hp.
The encounters all in question that have been called "really easy" should be relatively easy, since they are warm up ones (the single owlbear, the gel cube). There's still several harder ones, before getting to the end encounters.
The printed module even tells you what to do if your party is strong, saying "Double the number of owlbears in areas 12, 13 and 14 and make them all awake".
Just be sure you warn your group before next session that they've been on easy encounters, below their challenge level, and you'll be running the harder stuff with the "stronger parties" recommendation - because with 6 people, using Pathfinder rules, and 20pt buy, they qualify for those recommendations!
Spoilers
Wakedown, you should have put all that into spoiler tags.
Comparing this to CR4 monsters - as if one CR4 monster was going toe-to-toe with one of these 22 AC characters, here is the attack bonus for each.
Dark Stalker +6 (25% chance to hit)
Grizzly Bear +7 (30% chance to hit)
Minotaur +9 (45% chance to hit)If I threw 3 grizzly bears at the party that's supposed to be an EL 7. If you consider that the group of 6 4th level PCs is an APL 5, then this should be a "hard fight." Never mind that if it's just the battle cleric, paladin, and fighter they can handedly defeat this encounter without the assistance of pacifist cleric, wizard, or alchemist.
This is why I think we broke the system.
A single CR4 monster against a party of four is going to be a walk over.
Your grizzly bears have three attacks a round, can flank getting another +2 to hit, grab with a +13 to grapple FTW. However if they are just standing in a line and not using their +13 grapple and not flanking then those bears need to be removed from the gene pool.
Dark Stalker +6 (25% chance to hit)
Grizzly Bear +7 (30% chance to hit)
Minotaur +9 (45% chance to hit)
If I threw 3 grizzly bears at the party that's supposed to be an EL 7. If you consider that the group of 6 4th level PCs is an APL 5, then this should be a "hard fight." Never mind that if it's just the battle cleric, paladin, and fighter they can handedly defeat this encounter without the assistance of pacifist cleric, wizard, or alchemist.
Put those same three people ankle deep in water and give them two large water elementals to fight. That's also EL7, but it gets two attacks at +12 (55% chance to hit) and has DR5/-. Heck, we'll even use your own fight, three Dark Stalkers instead of grizzly bears. The Dark Stalker has a 25% chance to hit in a fair fight, but why would they let them have a fair fight? What are the warrior, cleric, and paladin going to do when they cast Deeper Darkness and start laying in with 3d6 poisoned sneak attack twice per round per Stalker? What if we just took a single CR 7 Enchanter? How's your warrior's will save?
Or since we're cherry-picking, put your mage, pacifist cleric and alchemist up against the bears.
Point being that depending on how you focus your character, you're going to be better at fighting some monsters of a given CR than others.
ETA: Forgot about the Stalker's poison.
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So it's now perfectly acceptable for everyone who wants to own a suit of regular full plate. This means that the 22 AC is not only legal, it's also given full blessing by the core rulebook.
This isn't as awesome as it sounds; as has been stated over and over, it's not as simple as putting a CR 5 creature up against your APL 5 group and letting them wail on each other. In fact, your group sounds horribly prepared for fights that don't occur in close quarters.
That 20 foot movement speed with reduced running is horribly painful. One of the most overlooked things in games is the "difficult terrain" movement modifiers. This can be as simple as being in a moderately wooded area. If your group is taking 2-3 rounds to cross the battlefield, enemy casters and ranged attackers can have a field day with the group during that time. Heck, with our 20 point build characters we had a fight in a dungeon with a single rogue two levels higher than the party against a party of four. They started to get very frustrated because their 20 foot movement speeds meant the rogue's hit and run tactics wound up being so painful since they could never catch up.
Interestingly, the Paladin in my COT group just picked up Full Plate...at level 6. Also interestingly, I'm having no problems smacking him around because the fights are varied and interesting, not straight up hack-fests (and his CMD was low enough that trip attacks with reach weapons made his life a living hell).
So now I'm looking through everyone's equipment, and according to the rulebook, at 4th level they are exactly where they should be (if a little underpowered.) The AC is perfectly in line with 4th level characters, even given the 25% "balanced character" guidelines.
Although, you must admit, having three guys in full plate is very uncommon. A typical adventuring group might be:
1. Fighter, AC 22 as described
2. Cleric, AC 18-19 (breastplate + shield, very little DEX)
3. Rogue, AC 20 (+1 chain shirt, 20 DEX)
4. Mage, AC 12 (16 if he casts Shield or Mage Armor)
If I'm reading correctly, they should each have 6000 gp worth of gear at 4th level. With the guidelines it's 25% on weapons (1500 gp), 25% on armor and defense (1500 gp), 25% other magic items (1500 gp), 15% on disposable magic items (900 gp), and 10% of ordinary gear and coins (600 gp).
So it's now perfectly acceptable for everyone who wants to own a suit of regular full plate. This means that the 22 AC is not only legal, it's also given full blessing by the core rulebook.
Absolutely correct.
Comparing this to CR4 monsters - as if one CR4 monster was going toe-to-toe with one of these 22 AC characters, here is the attack bonus for each.
Dark Stalker +6 (25% chance to hit)
Grizzly Bear +7 (30% chance to hit)
Minotaur +9 (40% chance to hit) - fixedIf I threw 3 grizzly bears at the party that's supposed to be an EL 7. If you consider that the group of 6 4th level PCs is an APL 5, then this should be a "hard fight." Never mind that if it's just the battle cleric, paladin, and fighter they can handedly defeat this encounter without the assistance of pacifist cleric, wizard, or alchemist.
This is why I think we broke the system.
I don't know what you want here. You have three front-line melee characters taking on three grizzlies. And those melee guys have some hefty backup in terms of mage blasting, cleric healing, etc. The grizzlies don't.
It's supposed to be a one-sided fight.
(You do know that the PCs are supposed to win, right?)
Now if you put those against a more typical group, while the fighter is mauling one grizzly, the second grizzly is dancing with the rogue, hitting and grappling him much more easily, and the third grizzly is feasting on the wizard's liver, hitting an AC of 12 with astounding ease. And when the group mops up those grizzlies, they will have used a few spells in the fight, and a few more healing spells after the fight. Resources depleted. Which means fewer resources for the other three fights they should have in later in this day.
Which is exactly what is supposed to happen.
So yes, you're right, you win - your group broke the system. You've been right all along. Your group is big, and it's very melee heavy, backed up with a temporary canon in that mage and double healing if neeeded. It's an amazingly powerful group,
And your group is perfectly designed to go toe-to-toe with melee monsters, being blessed with three armor-clad tanks to man the front lines.
You have managed to play right into their strength, sending melee monsters to fight them man-to-man. Instead of shooting for their weaknesses, you have put easy fights into their hands. Monsters with low AC and mediocre attack rolls who have no tricks up their sleeves but melee, melee, melee - exactly what your group is overpowered against.
And your expectations seem a little off too. Your PCs are supposed to win. They are not supposed to be mauled to the brink of death in every fight. It should take at least 4 fights back-to-back with no time for the PCs to rest or recover resources in between. And even then, they should probably only really be just a little nervous in the last fight when their resources are running out (the first three will still be easy with pretty much zero risk).
So, hit them with some stuff that exploits their weaknesses a little, or at the very least, use a few encounters that don't play right into the PCs strengths. Deplete some resources, Hit them with more encounters while their resources are low. Make them sweat a little.
Until you do that, you're going to keep being right: You DID break the system, but it took all of you, including the DM, to make the choices that broke the system. If you as the DM make different choices, then the system won't be quite so broken.
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If I threw 3 grizzly bears at the party that's supposed to be an EL 7. If you consider that the group of 6 4th level PCs is an APL 5, then this should be a "hard fight."
Your group will have an easy time if you pick monster choices that they operate best against that don't use tactics. If you are looking to “fix” the “broken” system, imagine you read this line “if your group contains a high number of melee combatants in heavy armor, consider generic melee monsters to be 1CR lower.”
Remember with 6 PCs, 2 clerics, 1 paladin, lots of armor, 20-point buy, and some "fudge" if they are veterans, you may even round the APL up to 6 for an "average fight". These average fights merely consume wand charges, spell slots, potions, and shouldn’t really risk death.
Let's look at some average fights:
A pair of harpies could provide a more interesting fight than a pair of bears. This CR4 creature can attack your party's will saves, use their ability to Fly, and go in for the folks who are not wearing full plate. This should force the group to spend some healing, cast some spells, and at least do something besides swing at a monster standing there. There should be no threat of death in this fight, but the wizard might feel a bit scared if half the group is fascinated and 2 harpies swoop in to flank him.
What next... say a mummy (CR5) with a couple skeletons (CR1). You have some crazy will saves maybe someone important takes ability score damage, hampering them later.
Toss a CR5 gibbering mouther at them. Maybe the mouther starts on a ledge, or around a portculis that needs to be opened. Its CR5 so its just an average fight (or even below average for this group), but there's some fun with its spit blinding people, its gibbering confusing people, and DR to overcome.
To really make things fun, then toss a Sorcerer with some fighter mooks their way. The fighters can be decked in full plate with shields and harry the melee PCs. The sorcerer can overhear the gibbering fight, casting Resist on both guards then fly on himself. When the party arrives, he can unload several fireballs into melee exercising your group's reflex saves, which by the sound of things are probably terrible. The sorcerer’s familiar could be hitting the “tanks” 60% of the time with ranged touch attacks.
It shouldn't be too hard to "eyeball" CR for things, discounting melee monsters by 1CR and even considering adding 1CR to things your group is unoptimized to handle. You'll find an encounter where the party has to leap bridges, or make Acrobatics check to move half speed across slippery terrain on a ledge are probably much more than a +1 CR change for your group.
The dark stalkers, unless they are attacking with touch attacks, have no prayer of hitting a 22 AC with any degree of regularity, even considering the Deeper Darkness. And considering the Deeper Darkness, they would last - at most - two combat rounds.
BS. First off, they're encountered underground, so unless your cleric is walking around with a Daylight spell out, they'll be able to plunge the room into total darkness in one casting. And if your cleric is walking around with a Daylight spell out, it'll take two castings, because one will dispel it and plunge the room into dim light at best.
Then the attacks begin. Your PCs can't see, so they're denied their Dex bonus against the stalkers. That 22AC becomes a 20, and as they have total concealment in darkness (which they can see in), the stalkers are at +2 to hit them. Now they need a 12 or better, 45% chance to hit each time. Actually, if they have to move up and attack, they only need a 10 or better to hit with a single shot (that 12-or-better assumes they're using TWF). They've got 39hp, so even if the PCs find them in a 40' room (the extent of their charging attack range), and the PCs win initiative, they're not going to one-shot them, so there'll be at least two up on their turn. I'll concede that your PCs' fort saves are probably going to negate the poison pretty easily, so we won't count that as being too significant, but it's there. I doubt any of the PCs can withstand 3 stalkers dual-attacking them in darkness for a single round. 6 attacks that hit 45% of the time doing 4d6+2(+DC15 Fort Save or 1d2 STR damage) each? And every one of your spells has a 50% miss chance, and if you happen to kill one, it explodes.
Seriously? Two rounds? Try it and let me know.
ETA: Bad math
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The biggeset concern I see being voiced by the OP is that their ACs are so high, monsters cannot hit them. I think the problem come with the fact that at lower levels, regular beast type monsters without a special attack (poison, acid, ability damage, etc, aren't very much of a challenge vs high ac parties, high stat parties. You have to go to humanoid types with class levels. This is speaking as someone who had a 4th level dwarf fighter with a 26 ac with 57hps (both enhanced due to feats). Not only couldn't I hit him with standard monsters, when I did, it was a drop in the bucket next to his hps. He and a half-orc barbarian also loaded with hps and str dominated nearly all their opponents, with the dwarf tying up the hardest one till the rest of the group mopped up. This all sort of auto-corrects in a few levels because monsters definitely start hitting better, with bigger bonuses, whereas the plate mail ACs dont really change too much.
Here is a sample humanoid encounter I used:
5 gnolls (about CR7), 3 with 2 lvls of barbarian, a warsinger gnoll with 1 lvl of bard, and a priest gnoll with a level or two of cleric. Look what happens:
The 3 barbarian gnolls
+3 BAB
18-19 str +4 attack/dam
rage - +2 attack/dam
power attack for -1 attack/+3 damc(2 hander)
2 handers for +3 extra damage(raging) from str
Now add the bard song for
+1 attack/dam
Bless from the priest
+1 attack
for a total of +10 attack and either 2d6+12,1d10+12, or 1d12+12 depending on your 2 hander of choice.
If they flank or charge, thats another +2 to hit. Now add in the priest either healing each round or also attacking perhaps with a reach weapon, give the bard a whip with touch attack to trip from range if you like, and you have a challenging encounter. You could also have the gnolls attempt an ambush, which would be a free round on at least some of the party. Other options are to have the warsinger gnoll grapple the caster, still singing, have some of the now 40' move gnolls (barbarian) engage the priest. Want it more challenging? Put the gnolls in Breastplates for better ac, and give them a dex bonus. Even more, give them a goblin rogue as a mascot, and let him sneak attack the healer.
Comparatively, 3 grizzly bears basically have a standard routine of claw/claw bite with average attack bonuses, low damage and fairly weak ACs, with no special attacks, unless you use them to grapple.
So, some of your encounters should be grizzly bears they can mop up, and some can be humaoid with class levels which are more challenging.
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I guess that the problem is that DMs count on very specific situations for enemies to be effective. Which if you're running in an urban/dungeon setting as I've been doing, it's hard to get the space to do hit and run tactics. (Besides that, hit and run tactics can't work until a creature can get Spring Attack, which is higher level, and it slows down the attacking creature to one move - which is still within the charge range of a fighter in full plate.)
Spring Attack is available to a level 6 rogue (which wound be a CR 5 NPC). This is not a "high level" encounter and would even fit into the realm of an "easy" encounter for your group of six level 4's. It also doesn't have to be within charge range of a fighter in full plate. Send the spring attacker around a corner, have them run up a spiral staircase, have them jump down a pit. Have them drink a potion of levitate and float above the group. There are tons of options to make it work.
I get this sense that things are broken because you as a GM have made things broken. You have meelee heavy enemies just stand around and wait to get hit by the heavily armed and armored PCs. You tailor encounters to their strengths (as has been noted several times), and you don't think outside the box to make an appropriately leveled challenging encounter. If that's the case, of course your characters are going to steamroll everything you put them up against.
You talk about urban/dungeon settings being difficult. They don't have to be difficult. Waist deep water equates to difficult terrain (or downright impossible terrain for a halfling/gnome. Dark dungeons and the darkness spell mean the group is virtually blind without the daylight spell. Surprise by the opponents (or significant buffing) should be regular if your group has light sources out and opponents have darkvision. In city settings ranged attackers can be on balconies in alleyways. A sorcerer can be invisible behind a wall of melee types ready to cast his 4 fireballs at the group (or dominate person, or web). Think outside the box and it won't be as straight up easy for your players.
I am running Council of Thieves and it has yet to be difficult to set up a challenging encounter with range, terrain, or other goodies as appropriate. The spring attack above is exactly how I dealt with a charge happy paladin, and the rogue's poisoned crossbow bolts during the surprise round of combat, followed by hit and run tactics up stairs caused one character to nearly die. It doesn't have to be game breaking unless you're letting it be game breaking. As a GM it's your job to think up encounters that are realistic and challenge.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Stop helping him, guys; he doesn't want it. If he wanted it, he'd be willing to do a little work and willing to think of ideas. Every time someone proposes something, he shoots it down because there's work involved. Whether that work means coming up with ideas or actually having to use his encounters' tactics against the players, it's work he doesn't seem to want to do.
If he wants to believe the system is broken, let him. Then he'll leave us alone...
Stop helping him, guys; he doesn't want it. If he wanted it, he'd be willing to do a little work and willing to think of ideas. Every time someone proposes something, he shoots it down because there's work involved. Whether that work means coming up with ideas or actually having to use his encounters' tactics against the players, it's work he doesn't seem to want to do.
If he wants to believe the system is broken, let him. Then he'll leave us alone...
+1
Stop helping him, guys; he doesn't want it...But... you can't put a troll in front of someone and not expect them to attack!
CHARGE!
I was going to mention the T word...
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I don't recall reading anyone mentioning the "Aid Another" action in this thread. 4 hobgoblins "aiding" their commander (even 2 hobgoblins aiding a 3rd) has a better chance of hitting than if they each try to hit the PCs by themselves.
It's also been said numerous times, you can't stick 1 powerful guy in front of 4-6 PCs and expect them to not walk all over him. I had a one-shot encounter I wanted to try out for a (sort of) custom creation, 4 20th level party members vs 1 CR 25 monster. My players absolutely destroyed the thing by the end of the 3rd or 4th round with barely a scratch to themselves.
Hehe, if this is a troll thread I've found it to be a good read. Lot's of good stuff here.
I agree, it has a lot of good advice here. I may not want to be a killer GM, but a player death or two every two sessions or so is a nice feeling. Muahaha.
I don't recall reading anyone mentioning the "Aid Another" action in this thread. 4 hobgoblins "aiding" their commander (even 2 hobgoblins aiding a 3rd) has a better chance of hitting than if they each try to hit the PCs by themselves.
It's also been said numerous times, you can't stick 1 powerful guy in front of 4-6 PCs and expect them to not walk all over him. I had a one-shot encounter I wanted to try out for a (sort of) custom creation, 4 20th level party members vs 1 CR 25 monster. My players absolutely destroyed the thing by the end of the 3rd or 4th round with barely a scratch to themselves.
Yea, aid other is a fine tactic for multiple goblins laying the grapple slap down :)
Of course players use it too :(