Ya, you don't SWAT into those. You SWAT into the ones that can't be. Hence why you need the buff spells. Once you start combat you are kind of committed.But when you are swatting room to room you kinda short circuit anything but combat. Not to many things will talk to you when you charge in with swords drawn and spells blazing.
I know of three effective ways to approach a 'dungeon':
1 As fast as possible, to preserve buffs and to avoid giving the enemy time to respond.2 As stealthily as possible, avoiding triggering any traps and trying to ensure enemies can't even call for help before they're dead.
3 In a friendly and open manner, no weapons drawn, perhaps waving a flag of truce.
Which one is right for you depends on your party (are they capable of stealth?) and the opposition (are they yeti? wraiths? demons?)
Ya, you don't SWAT into those. You SWAT into the ones that can't be. Hence why you need the buff spells. Once you start combat you are kind of committed.But when you are swatting room to room you kinda short circuit anything but combat. Not to many things will talk to you when you charge in with swords drawn and spells blazing.
"Ok guys we're going to Fell Lord Thamior's castle, remember to bring your tea cozies and house warming gift."
If your going to raid a place, you've decided that combat is both 1. necessary, and 2. your best option. Thus, you use SWAT tactics.
Ya, you don't SWAT into those. You SWAT into the ones that can't be. Hence why you need the buff spells. Once you start combat you are kind of committed.But when you are swatting room to room you kinda short circuit anything but combat. Not to many things will talk to you when you charge in with swords drawn and spells blazing."Ok guys we're going to Fell Lord Thamior's castle, remember to bring your tea cozies and house warming gift."
If your going to raid a place, you've decided that combat is both 1. necessary, and 2. your best option. Thus, you use SWAT tactics.
Ah, so all situations are binary, eh?
When you've already decided that violence is necessary? To be honest, yes. Some exceptions may apply, but they are few and far between.
Time to investigate first. Put that Bard to work. No use chasing down a false lead. A good SWAT party doesn't just show up to a place you know.
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Wait, I don't understand, is there an argument that a keep full of undead is not the place to use SWAT tactics? O.o
Seriously though, you need to take this conversation over to its own thread, it has nothing to do with the Bard's obvious superiority at this point (but thanks for trying to bring it back around Anzyr).
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You are seriously saying that the only choices are flowers and wine, or tactical nuclear weapons?When you've already decided that violence is necessary? To be honest, yes. Some exceptions may apply, but they are few and far between.Ya, you don't SWAT into those. You SWAT into the ones that can't be. Hence why you need the buff spells. Once you start combat you are kind of committed.But when you are swatting room to room you kinda short circuit anything but combat. Not to many things will talk to you when you charge in with swords drawn and spells blazing."Ok guys we're going to Fell Lord Thamior's castle, remember to bring your tea cozies and house warming gift."
If your going to raid a place, you've decided that combat is both 1. necessary, and 2. your best option. Thus, you use SWAT tactics.
Ah, so all situations are binary, eh?
Dude what? Alright this is flat ridiculous at this point. I am willing to say this is a decent conversation to have somewhere but not in the bard thread (also probably not with equating SWAT building clearing procedures with nuclear weaponry).
Anyways Bards have a number of things that help them beyond the initial core rulebook now. The fact they can now as an immediate action completely save your bacon on a save throw is huge, inspire gallantry is also an amazing spell too.
I used to complain about the bard spell list but now? It's freaking awesome.
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Dude what? Alright this is flat ridiculous at this point. I am willing to say this is a decent conversation to have somewhere but not in the bard thread (also probably not with equating SWAT building clearing procedures with nuclear weaponry).Anyways Bards have a number of things that help them beyond the initial core rulebook now. The fact they can now as an immediate action completely save your bacon on a save throw is huge, inspire gallantry is also an amazing spell too.
I used to complain about the bard spell list but now? It's freaking awesome.
Bard is way up there in my favorite classes, because of both a strong but thematically appropriate and focused spell list, solid proficiencies, superior skills, and great group dynamics. I'd rather have a bard at the table than any other class (unless we've already got a bard, and even then there might be room).
One thing about bards that has bothered me ever since it was first allowed in 3E was letting them cast Cure spells. Bards are arcane casters, not divine casters. If arcane casters can heal, then why can't wizards, who are supposed to be the experts in arcane magic, do it?
Falls flat when you consider they could case cure spells in 1st edition too (since they cast as per druids). Also falls even more flat with the introduction of the witch, and there have always been other options for healing as arcane casters through out the editions.
Indeed the separation of magic into arcane and divine is itself a more recent addition to the system.
Honestly Bards are pretty cool, though I really really want a way to make them full casters in PF like Sublime Chord did in 3.5. Sure it would be extremely powerful, but having to take a PRC to do what Wizards and Sorcerers already do seems fair enough.
That being said I do love the PF Bard Archetypes, especially Archaeologist and Dawnflower Dervish
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Bards are far too balanced. They should either be made much better, so they can compete with the other overpowered classes, or made much worse, so they don't overshadow rogues.
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Bards are far too balanced. They should either be made much better, so they can compete with the other overpowered classes, or made much worse, so they don't overshadow rogues.
Your Poe'sLaw, it's tasty.
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In 1E bards they were trained as druids and cast druid (cleric) spells. In 2E they had spellbooks and cast as wizards. In 3E they cast arcane spells from a list that includes some spells that are otherwise only divine. The addition of witches in PF just makes the situation worse. If a spell is possible for an arcane caster, it should be on the spell list for wizards.The separation has been there from the beginning. They just changed the terminology starting in 3E from "wizard" and "cleric" (1E) or "priest" (2E) to "arcane" and "divine."
Why should Wizards automatically have access to everything arcane? Why can't there be aspects of arcane magic that are only accessible through the filter of a mystical patron (a relationship very similar to that between a cleric and his deity), or when channeled through the transformative delivery of music and art? It seems a little limiting in a world full of magic to assume that said magic can broken into precise mathematical formulas in its entirety. I kind of like the idea of a force whose laws cannot be understood in their entirety via any single means of access.
Sorry if i missed it some where up thread but have we gotten any good gripes in on Pageant of the Peacock? totes broke bro. And that other master piece they have for dealing fire damage to oozes? How are GMs supposed to compensate for that?!
I only makes sense if the bard is using Perform(acting) for the bluff checks
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Bards are far too balanced. They should either be made much better, so they can compete with the other overpowered classes, or made much worse, so they don't overshadow rogues.
Yep, they are rubbish.
With their archetypes and thematics and flexibility and skills and spells and roleplaying possibilities they annoy me.
Bastards.
Actually, I have been playing recently with a bunch of new players, they have been learning the ropes. Bards were almost my favourite class before, this might have swung it. I've been a Halfling archer support Bard, lots of skills, groovy spells like Vanish, give everyone a +1/+1 in battle. It's extremely satisfying to have new players enjoy the game and I don't have to be a show-off about my mad skillz (even though I carry the party).
Until it gets an errata or an FAQ, the Sound Striker Bard is actually one of the most OP things I can think of. I actually really wanted to do a magician/sound striker bard to team up with a blaster caster, but Weird Words just looks too game breaking.
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard’s Charisma bonus (Fortitude half ), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word.
This performance replaces suggestion.
Until it gets an errata or an FAQ, the Sound Striker Bard is actually one of the most OP things I can think of. I actually really wanted to do a magician/sound striker bard to team up with a blaster caster, but Weird Words just looks too game breaking.
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard’s Charisma bonus (Fortitude half ), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word.
This performance replaces suggestion.
Game breaking for who? People with really really low system mastery maybe. Cause that is... well... calling that even "powerful" is a stretch.
Game breaking for who? People with really really low system mastery maybe. Cause that is... well... calling that even "powerful" is a stretch.Until it gets an errata or an FAQ, the Sound Striker Bard is actually one of the most OP things I can think of. I actually really wanted to do a magician/sound striker bard to team up with a blaster caster, but Weird Words just looks too game breaking.
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard’s Charisma bonus (Fortitude half ), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word.
This performance replaces suggestion.
Really? You don't think doing potentially 8D8+48 to a creature per turn by level 8 more than 24 times a day is powerful (and that's if you rule that weapon focus "Ray" and point blank shot don't work, if you do that's another 16 damage)? People say conjurers are powerful, but I don't think mine can stack up even close to that.
Not really no. Conjurers are strong because they can do lots of stuff, while still doing damage. Just dealing damage is hardly measure of power and a Power attacking Vital Strike Barbarian should probably be in a similar ballpark. Now a Power Attacking, Vital Strike Druid at 8th level... there's a real killer. And neither of those are "Fortitude for half."
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Bard is way up there in my favorite classes, because of both a strong but thematically appropriate and focused spell list, solid proficiencies, superior skills, and great group dynamics. I'd rather have a bard at the table than any other class (unless we've already got a bard, and even then there might be room).
Dude what? Alright this is flat ridiculous at this point. I am willing to say this is a decent conversation to have somewhere but not in the bard thread (also probably not with equating SWAT building clearing procedures with nuclear weaponry).Anyways Bards have a number of things that help them beyond the initial core rulebook now. The fact they can now as an immediate action completely save your bacon on a save throw is huge, inspire gallantry is also an amazing spell too.
I used to complain about the bard spell list but now? It's freaking awesome.
Chelish Diva/Arcane Duelist/Archaeologist/Negotiator team is a-go?
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Chelish Diva/Arcane Duelist/Archaeologist/Negotiator team is a-go?
Bard is way up there in my favorite classes, because of both a strong but thematically appropriate and focused spell list, solid proficiencies, superior skills, and great group dynamics. I'd rather have a bard at the table than any other class (unless we've already got a bard, and even then there might be room).
Hells yeah it is.
Not really no. Conjurers are strong because they can do lots of stuff, while still doing damage. Just dealing damage is hardly measure of power and a Power attacking Vital Strike Barbarian should probably be in a similar ballpark. Now a Power Attacking, Vital Strike Druid at 8th level... there's a real killer. And neither of those are "Fortitude for half."
There's more to it than just dealing damage. You're giving up suggestion and inspire competence for this archetype which are pretty lame. The character still has inspire courage, casting, and everything else that a bard has. There is a fortitude save for half, sure, but they are touch attacks too. You also have the option of hitting multiple enemies. Any sort of buff to damage applies to every attack too. A simple +1 damage gets multiplied over and over, and bards tend to be good at buffing.
Maybe I'm missing something, but when I compare this to the Druid I'm not seeing what is potentially so much better. You're using vital strike, so I assume you're shooting for one big attack instead of a pounce build. The best creature for that would be a huge creature such as the behemoth hippo, so that's 4D8 damage base. With a really high base strength of 22 I get +9 damage there, power attack for +6 more, and double damage dice from the vital strike. 8D8+15 is really good, but your example of a "real killer" is still potentially doing significantly less damage. Is there a trick that I'm unaware of? I've never actually played a druid.
I was looking at the masterpieces earlier and I'm surprised I haven't seen this mentioned before. Bestow Curse with no save at no additional cost? Seems like a great thing for an Arcane Duelist. Tank an enemy's casting stat and then use those anti-casting bonus feats to really rub it in.
Not really no. Conjurers are strong because they can do lots of stuff, while still doing damage. Just dealing damage is hardly measure of power and a Power attacking Vital Strike Barbarian should probably be in a similar ballpark. Now a Power Attacking, Vital Strike Druid at 8th level... there's a real killer. And neither of those are "Fortitude for half."There's more to it than just dealing damage. You're giving up suggestion and inspire competence for this archetype which are pretty lame. The character still has inspire courage, casting, and everything else that a bard has. There is a fortitude save for half, sure, but they are touch attacks too. You also have the option of hitting multiple enemies. Any sort of buff to damage applies to every attack too. A simple +1 damage gets multiplied over and over, and bards tend to be good at buffing.
Maybe I'm missing something, but when I compare this to the Druid I'm not seeing what is potentially so much better. You're using vital strike, so I assume you're shooting for one big attack instead of a pounce build. The best creature for that would be a huge creature such as the behemoth hippo, so that's 4D8 damage base. With a really high base strength of 22 I get +9 damage there, power attack for +6 more, and double damage dice from the vital strike. 8D8+15 is really good, but your example of a "real killer" is still potentially doing significantly less damage. Is there a trick that I'm unaware of? I've never actually played a druid.
You are forgetting Strong Jaw. Which ups the base damage considerably.
And Soundstriker means giving up other valuable archetypes, which is a pretty hefty cost if you ask me.
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You are forgetting Strong Jaw. Which ups the base damage considerably.And Soundstriker means giving up other valuable archetypes, which is a pretty hefty cost if you ask me.
I think Stegosaurus is my favorite druid form for Vital Striking, because not only does he start out with a 4d6 (bumped to 8d6 with Strong Jaw for a 16d6 Vital Strike), but his tail gets the trip special ability too. It can be nice to combo up with some Fighter levels so you can grab Greater Trip and get up to Greater Vital Strike for a 32d6 attack, followed by another 8d6 attack on a successful trip.
Huh... I never knew about Stegosauri, that's pretty fancy! *files away note for future Druid considerations*
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Huh... I never knew about Stegosauri, that's pretty fancy! *files away note for future Druid considerations*
Yeah, people are always going on about that hippo, but I'm like "Dinosaurs are animals, and stegosauri will mess your day up something fierce with almost as much damage and a free trip to boot".
If you go Saurian Shaman, you can start the stego fun at level 6, and you even trade venom immunity for three bonus feats, allowing you to snag Vital Strike, Power Attack, and probably Improved Overrun.
You are forgetting Strong Jaw. Which ups the base damage considerably.And Soundstriker means giving up other valuable archetypes, which is a pretty hefty cost if you ask me.
Well, that's pretty impressive then. Believe it or not though, if you take averages the plain, unbuffed sound striker isn't much less (84 vs 87). Obviously, they are a little hard to compare (ranged touch vs melee, magic B,P or S vs bludgeoning, multiple targets vs single, fort save vs none, etc).
But if you still find that underpowered, then you should see the proposed fix. It's IMHO very weak (but I guess it's a work in progress):
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with up to 1 ray of potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. Note: "Up to" means you can choose to fire fewer than the maximum number.
No target can be struck more than once. Note: This makes the intent clear.
Each ray expends 1 round of bardic performance. Note: This is new, and keeps the cost from being trivial at higher levels for using the maximum number of sounds.
These are ranged touch attacks.
Each ray deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus. At 10th, 14th, and 18th level, the damage increases by 1d8. Note: Scaling damage is new. Fort saving throw removed.
The bard chooses what type of damage each ray deals (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing). These rays count as magical weapons.
This performance replaces suggestion.
Well that's absolutely miserable. Like never ever take this Archetype bad. It just made it so much worse in so many ways it didn't need to be I don't even know which part to comment on first. So I won't, especially since I wasn't even going to take the archetype before.
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You are forgetting Strong Jaw. Which ups the base damage considerably.And Soundstriker means giving up other valuable archetypes, which is a pretty hefty cost if you ask me.
Well, that's pretty impressive then. Believe it or not though, if you take averages the plain, unbuffed sound striker isn't much less (84 vs 87). Obviously, they are a little hard to compare (ranged touch vs melee, magic B,P or S vs bludgeoning, multiple targets vs single, fort save vs none, etc).
If you're still comparing to the hippo, it's worth noting that bite attacks actually deal B&P&S. So you're getting all 3 simultaneously.
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Bard is absolutely OP. I'm just surprised more people don't see it. Decent proficiencies in armor/weapons, medium BAB, best party buffing in the game (save maybe an Evangelist Cleric... maybe), excellent selection of skills which can be made even broader, a solid spell list which includes a mixture of support, utility, and even damage and crowd control spells.
If the name of the game is to be good at things, then the bard is the best, because while he may not be the best at one thing, he's good at everything.
Also, regarding the Weird Words thing: If it didn't require a standard action, it would almost be acceptable written that way, it's APPALLING.
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I started working for the pathfinders a few years ago. At the time they where like what do we need you for. Sense then every mission I have been on. Has a 100% success rate. It my be form adding ally's in battle, a well timed spell, my mastery of social settings, or even my ability to disarm a few traps here and there. I have made every mission easy for the team that went with me.
@Ryan Signor
In regards to point 2:
Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard’s performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.
So kind of but not all the way -- only the save throw bonus against charm and fear effects is a morale bonus.
3. yes.
I think it's kosher.
Fansy says hello.
Fansy says hello.
Huh. Troll bard is a decent combo.