Personal choice would be scimitar and shield.
Feats
Improved Shield Bash
TWF
Power Attack
Double Slice
Weapon Focus Scimitar.
Weapon Spec. Scimitar.
And check the DPR thread...
A TWF wielding two Kukris can be a real killer, thanks to the high critical rate of such weapons; it's true that the base damage die is low (1d4), but thanks to the 18-20 x2 critical rate (expanded to 15-20 x2 with Improved Critical), they can easily dish a lot of damage. In this case, Critical Feats are your best friends.
In general, wielding two identical weapons in a TWF build is a great boon, since you gain the benefit of a feat for both weapons.
Of course, my personal favourite remains the 'double Bastard Sword wielder' - but you really need at least one of those Bastard Swords to be a Sun Blade, or you would suffer from the -4/-4 penalty for handling two One-Handed weapons at once...
PRD -> Magic Items -> Weapons -> Sun Blade:
"This sword is the size of a Bastard Sword. However, a Sun Blade is wielded as if it were a Short Sword with respect to weight and ease of use. In other words, the weapon appears to all viewers to be a Bastard Sword, and deals Bastard Sword damage, but the wielder feels and reacts as if the weapon were a Short Sword. Any individual able to use either a Bastard Sword or a Short Sword with proficiency is proficient in the use of a Sun Blade. Likewise, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in Short Sword and Bastard Sword apply equally, but the benefits of those feats do not stack.
(more goodies follow)"
A Rogue could easily wield a couple of those without even taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat (since thay can benefit from the Short Sword Proficiency as well...)
Both Spacelard and the Wraith are correct.
Theres generally two best ways to do TWFing in Pathfinder. Either use two of the same high crit range weapons, such as the kukri, to maximize damage and to benefit from weapon specific feats for both weapons. Or use the shield slam/bullrush feats for better defense and tactical capabilities. Which to use is a decision of personal preference and could be based on what concept one prefers, or what the makeup of the rest of the party is.
I won't mention the third option, as I'd hate to see this thread get to 500 posts by nightfall.
I always liked using 2 long swords 19-20 critical range (17-20 with keen or improved critical) and if your allowed to use feats from the complete adventure, Oversized Two Weapon fighting, brings the penalties to -2/-2.
Double Weapons are quite good for TWFighters, given that in a pinch you can use them as a 2-handed weapon or fight with a shield in your offhand and ignore one end of the weapon.
Edit: Gyrspike (Longsword/Light Flail combo, all that both weapons entail) look for it in the Arms and Equipment Guide.
Double Scimitar is also fun. Low base damage for higher crit, and stack that wit Keen and one (or two!) of the Elemental Burst enchantments and you're going to rock some faces off.
Orcish Double Axe (always fun and you get it for free as a Half Orc (^.^)
Dire Flail if you take the Combat Expertise, Improved Trip/Disarm feat trees, this can be a real monster.
Two-Bladed Sword, much like the Orcish Double Axe but slightly improved critical rate at the cost of weaker criticals all over.
Gnome Hooked Hammer. Honestly, I've never seen anyone wield on of these, but they have two of the highest critical rates in the game and two types of damage that you'll rarely find on exotic weapons outside of the Pathfinder Setting Guide Manual for Golarion.
Quarterstaff. Now before you laugh, yes the damage is crap and yes the criticals are laughable, but most people wouldn't blink at the thought of getting their ass whupped with a Quarterstaff in this game. It's also a Double Weapon that is easily disguised in a pinch.
Dwarven Double-Spear. This damn thing is almost broken. Piercing and Slashing damage, and it can be set to a charge. Look it up in the Races of Stone manual.
Chain. Look it up in the old Oriental Adventures manual. Not a bad weapon, and quite balanced now against the Spiked Chain now that it has been successfully brought down to acceptable levels of power.
Can't think of any more after a full 12 hours at work. blargh.
But a Double Weapon allows you to maximise on feats such as Weapon Focus and the feats that build off that, and also ensures that you count as having a 2-handed weapon for disarm attempts while still gaining the benefits of fighting with a medium and light weapon in regards to the penalty to your attacks.
But then, I made a Ranger with the TWF combat focus and gave him Improved Unarmed Strike and the Grappling Feat Tree, so what do I know?
Double Weapons are a good option if you get a racial profficiency, but in general are not worth spending a feat on.
Until you are dealing enough damage or have an ability to enhance crit range, increased damage die is better than crit range. For short sword vs kukris, I believe the breaking point is somewhere arround 22-23 damage that multiplies on a crit. Improved critical drops this to 12-13 damage. The difference is so low, however, that it is better to plan your feats ahead to the point where increased crits are better.
A doublesword changes these to 44 to 46, 24 to 26 if keen over kukris.
Eh, I disagree a bit. Most Double Weapons tend to feel a bit lack-luster against two separate weapons, given that while a Double Weapon can be used in the ways I've described above, two light weapons with good critical rates such as the Kukri or a character with the Wield Oversized Offhand Weapon feat (forget the exact spelling) can pull out twin Scimitars and unleash their inner Drizzt (ignore the sound of global-level snickering), since Criticals, and especially repeatable criticals that the 18-20/x2 branch of weapons provide, can be easily increased via the Keen enhancement or by precious feats to make it possible to get a 1-in-4 (or 5) critical chance each swing.
The other benefits to dual-wielding two weapons is that if one gets hit by a rust-monster or a disintergrate, you're not screwed, they're a lot easier to hide from annoying Guards, they don't require an exotic feat (normally) to use and thus are easily replaceable, wherein a DM is perfectly within reason to say that the PC in question has to hunt down a properly trained, and more importantly, amendable Smith to forge their exotic weapon properly.
And there is Dervish Dance to duel scimitars...
Eh, I disagree a bit. Most Double Weapons tend to feel a bit lack-luster against two separate weapons, given that while a Double Weapon can be used in the ways I've described above, two light weapons with good critical rates such as the Kukri or a character with the Wield Oversized Offhand Weapon feat (forget the exact spelling) can pull out twin Scimitars and unleash their inner Drizzt (ignore the sound of global-level snickering), since Criticals, and especially repeatable criticals that the 18-20/x2 branch of weapons provide, can be easily increased via the Keen enhancement or by precious feats to make it possible to get a 1-in-4 (or 5) critical chance each swing.
The other benefits to dual-wielding two weapons is that if one gets hit by a rust-monster or a disintergrate, you're not screwed, they're a lot easier to hide from annoying Guards, they don't require an exotic feat (normally) to use and thus are easily replaceable, wherein a DM is perfectly within reason to say that the PC in question has to hunt down a properly trained, and more importantly, amendable Smith to forge their exotic weapon properly.
High crit weapons do less damage. Until your bonus damage is high enough, the expected DPR from the crit will not overcome the lower damage die. The crossover point happens at the points I mentioned. I just did the math. Those numbers also assume that you hit in your whole crit range. If you do not, they begin to favor the non-crit weapons more.
The fact that double weapons are 2 damage die more than the equivalent high threat TWF weapon, kukris, puts them at more damage. Short swords never exceed double weapons, so that just shows that high crit weapons start lower but get better with enough bonus.
As a note, those numbers are the same when comparing any 2 weapons that deal a single die of damge, up to d12. Short sword vs kukri, long sword vs rapier or scimitar, it does not matter. Now, if you want to take a non-core feat and compare it for TWF, suddenly you are comparing the double weapons against scimitar, and are using the same values for doublesword and scimitar that you are for short sword and kukri.
Keep in mind that with all my numbers are the breaking point where they are even. For short sword vs kukris, the difference between the 2 is always less than 1 DPR, and is often less than .3. That is tiny, and irrelevant for most people.
My character certainly wasn't optimized, but I had a TWF Fighter build with two kukris and the crit feats. At level 11 I was dishing out some serious damage, definitely a personal favorite of mine if you're looking for sheer combat effectiveness.
This is a request from my friend (email problems, can't sign in).
What should a TWFer hit stuff with?
Weapons, preferably. Although with Catch-off Guard, maybe a pair of fish. ;)
In seriousness, it depends on what your definition of "Best" is. Sword and board improves your defense. Crit weapons are great for a crit build (particularly if you are playing a fighter so you can get all those extra feats). Extra damage dice are also good. If you're strong and fast and don't mind the exotic weapon proficiency, double weapons are great for the reasons listed above.
And then there's the good old quarterstaff. It's a simple weapon, no great damage or crit-ness, but no one expects you to go to town on their head with both ends of your "walking stick" until you do. And if you have monk levels, you can flurry with it too.
Or something like dual starknives could be fun--since you've got that high dex, milk the ability to go between melee combat and ranged so easily.
It all depends on your friend's concept and what he thinks would be fun--ultimately, all the suggestions you've been given work for different reasons, so it comes down to what you want to do with it.
What should he do with non TWFing feats?
Since TWF requires a high dex--a very high dex if you head up to Improved TWF, etc.--focusing on other Dex based abilities isn't a bad idea. Combat Reflexes, a couple Ranged Combat Abilities, etc.
If he does not have a shield, other things to help him boost defense might be good, like Combat Expertise.
If he's a rogue or has rogue levels, maybe some Stealthy or other similar feats to enhance that, especially if you're multiclass.
Specifically this post is about a fighter. Fighters need to focus on a particular weapon (due to the Weapon Focus/Specialization line and weapon training/mastery).
There are really 4 choices in core PF:
1. A one-handed weapon and a different light weapon
2. A one-handed weapon and a light shield
3. Two of the same light weapons (e.g. 2 kukris, 2 short swords, etc.)
4. A double weapon
I do not think the fighter is optimized for the first option. You either don't get the Weapon Focus/Specialization line with the off-hand light weapon or you pick both weapons and inefficiently use your feats. You also face problems dealing with weapon training and the final weapon mastery ability.
I don't think option 2 is a bad option -- I just don't think it's optimal for dealing damage. If you care about optimizing defense as much as offense, then it's a "middle of the road" option. It also suffers with the same problems option 1 has.
Option 3 versus option 4 is a silly debate assuming we're talking about pure damage output. Double weapons almost always beat 2 light weapons.
Fighters can easily sink a single feat into an exotic weapon proficiency -- they have 21 or 22, so the "not worth a feat" argument doesn't hold much water. The added racial weapon proficiencies are exceptionally good -- the half-orc is now arguably the best choice for a TWF fighter (as well as TWF ranger).
Clearly double weapons have the potential to deal more damage than any combination of light weapons in TWF. In fact, the increased damage is roughly equivalent to Weapon Specialization or better. Two light weapons also suffer a penalty to Power Attack (+1/+1 per -1) which double weapons do not (+2/+1 per -1). The added utility of using a double weapon as a two-handed weapon (which benefits from your feats and abilities equally) is icing on the cake.
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I always liked using 2 long swords 19-20 critical range (17-20 with keen or improved critical) and if your allowed to use feats from the complete adventure, Oversized Two Weapon fighting, brings the penalties to -2/-2.
Or take EWP Sawtooth Saber? It acts exactly like a long sword but counts as a light weapon. Because of the statement in the Adventurer's Armory that
"If a weapon’s description says it is “treated as” another weapon, a character lacking the appropriate exotic weapon proficiency, can still use it as if it were the other kind of weapon and feats such as Weapon Focus still apply, as do abilities requiring a certain weapon."
Any feat you take for long swords would also count for the sts.
Or take EWP Sawtooth Saber? It acts exactly like a long sword but counts as a light weapon. Because of the statement in the Adventurer's Armory that
"If a weapon’s description says it is “treated as” another weapon, a character lacking the appropriate exotic weapon proficiency, can still use it as if it were the other kind of weapon and feats such as Weapon Focus still apply, as do abilities requiring a certain weapon."
Any feat you take for long swords would also count for the sts.
I thought that would need EWP...
And running about using a weapon specifically used by Red Mantis Assassins might be a PR disaster or lead to a bizarre accident...EDIT: From AA: Sawtooth Sabre: This is the signature weapon of the
notorious Red Mantis. A proficient user can treat a sawtooth
sabre as a light weapon; otherwise, treat it as a longsword.
From that I read that the sawtoothed sabre is treated as a longsword (and by extension not a light weapon) if you don't have the EWP but as a light weapon with EWP so you couldn't TWF with STS as light weapons unless you have EWP.
Or take EWP Sawtooth Saber? It acts exactly like a long sword but counts as a light weapon. Because of the statement in the Adventurer's Armory that
"If a weapon’s description says it is “treated as” another weapon, a character lacking the appropriate exotic weapon proficiency, can still use it as if it were the other kind of weapon and feats such as Weapon Focus still apply, as do abilities requiring a certain weapon."
Any feat you take for long swords would also count for the sts.
I thought that would need EWP...
And running about using a weapon specifically used by Red Mantis Assassins might be a PR disaster or lead to a bizarre accident...EDIT: From AA: Sawtooth Sabre: This is the signature weapon of the
notorious Red Mantis. A proficient user can treat a sawtooth
sabre as a light weapon; otherwise, treat it as a longsword.From that I read that the sawtoothed sabre is treated as a longsword (and by extension not a light weapon) if you don't have the EWP but as a light weapon with EWP so you couldn't TWF with STS as light weapons unless you have EWP.
I think what he is saying is that if you have the EWP you can TWF, and all your longsword feats would still apply to the sawtoothed sabre.
I think what he is saying is that if you have the EWP you can TWF, and all your longsword feats would still apply to the sawtoothed sabre.
Oh I agree with you on that. However to me there was a hint that you didn't need EWP.
You do if you want to use STSs and have them treated as light weapons.In effect all the EWP gives you is;
a) Proficiency if you haven't got martial weapon prof.
b) Treat the weapon as light for TWF purposes.
Tired...Read that as STDs not STSs...
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And running about using a weapon specifically used by Red Mantis Assassins might be a PR disaster or lead to a bizarre accident...
EDIT: From AA: Sawtooth Sabre: This is the signature weapon of the
notorious Red Mantis. A proficient user can treat a sawtooth
sabre as a light weapon; otherwise, treat it as a longsword.
But the Adventurer's Armory page 3 also states
"Weapon Equivalencies
There are many new weapons presented in this section, and it could have included many, many more. However, rather than include multiple weapons with the exact game stats as a weapon that’s already in the rulebook, this book’s weapons have unique stats and play a specific role that isn’t already covered by a weapon in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Players shouldn’t let this hamper their creativity—if they want to call their characters’ greatswords zweihänders or claymores, they should go right ahead!"
So, make it mechanically the same but call it by some other name and you can disregard the Red Mantis Assassin problem.
And running about using a weapon specifically used by Red Mantis Assassins might be a PR disaster or lead to a bizarre accident...
EDIT: From AA: Sawtooth Sabre: This is the signature weapon of the
notorious Red Mantis. A proficient user can treat a sawtooth
sabre as a light weapon; otherwise, treat it as a longsword.But the Adventurer's Armory page 3 also states
"Weapon Equivalencies
There are many new weapons presented in this section, and it could have included many, many more. However, rather than include multiple weapons with the exact game stats as a weapon that’s already in the rulebook, this book’s weapons have unique stats and play a specific role that isn’t already covered by a weapon in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Players shouldn’t let this hamper their creativity—if they want to call their characters’ greatswords zweihänders or claymores, they should go right ahead!"So, make it mechanically the same but call it by some other name and you can disregard the Red Mantis Assassin problem.
I think we'll agree to disagree on this.
Greatswords, Claymores, etc are variations on a theme. They all look roughly the same, used the same way, etc.A STS is a specific unique weapon which looks like no other weapon and is used in upward slices rather than in a down slash (as per mantis Assassin fluff).
Yep treat it as a longsword for prof, feats etc but it ain't a longsword and people will know!
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I think we'll agree to disagree on this.
Greatswords, Claymores, etc are variations on a theme. They all look roughly the same, used the same way, etc.A STS is a specific unique weapon which looks like no other weapon and is used in upward slices rather than in a down slash (as per mantis Assassin fluff).
Yep treat it as a longsword for prof, feats etc but it ain't a longsword and people will know!
Or take EWP: Saber, and have it be a 1d8 19-20/x2 light weapon.
Or take EWP: Saber, and have it be a 1d8 19-20/x2 light weapon.
I think we'll agree to disagree on this.
Greatswords, Claymores, etc are variations on a theme. They all look roughly the same, used the same way, etc.A STS is a specific unique weapon which looks like no other weapon and is used in upward slices rather than in a down slash (as per mantis Assassin fluff).
Yep treat it as a longsword for prof, feats etc but it ain't a longsword and people will know!
Yep, good with that.