Abjurant Champion is very useful for upping both your BAB and AC from Mage Armour etc. I think the requirement is BAB +5 tho. Full spellcasting progression.
There's a feat that allows you to cast somatically thru your weapon (which can be a spiked shield) called Somatic Weaponry (CMage p.47).
There's also a feat that lets you pin a scroll to the back of your shield - can't remember the name and resource tho. i'll look it up tonight.
Also the feat Precocious Spellcaster (CA) basically gives you a free 2nd lvl spell slot and +2 Spellcraft.
The ACF Focussed Specialist (CM, i believe) gives you an additional 2 slots tied to your school at the cost of one slot. Going Illusionist or Transmuter are both very useful.
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Abjurant Champion is very useful for upping both your BAB and AC from Mage Armour etc. I think the requirement is BAB +5 tho. Full spellcasting progression.
There's a feat that allows you to cast somatically thru your weapon (which can be a spiked shield) called Somatic Weaponry (CMage p.47).
There's also a feat that lets you pin a scroll to the back of your shield - can't remember the name and resource tho. i'll look it up tonight.
Not arguing the Abjurant Champion is great for wizards, cause it is HP and BAB-wise, but it does not a thing for Mage Armor. Mage Armor is a Conjuration spell, and Abjurant Champion affects only Abjuration spells. Check the errata; WotC quickly realized their mistake in their mention of Mage Armor in the class description.
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G$% d*&n board ate my long message.
Okay so the short version, your stats suck. You need to bump your int to 19+ for a caster focused gish (yes I'm gonna use the bloody term because the board ate my last message where I typed in fighter/mage a whole lot). This can be done using a 15 point buy, there is no reason you could not with 20. For a fighty gish, you need more str for melee based or more dex for archery based. A bunch of 14 is just a bad way to go.
You don't need somatic weaponry for light shields in PF according to James Jacobs as your hands are considered free for casting of spells with a light shield. This is more likely for the clerics and paladins and not the gish...but hey it works.
You can not take arcane armor training at level 3. You need either practiced spellcaster or magical knack trait. Yes I realize it's a very STUPID pre-req for the feat to need light armor and CL 3.
Caster's shield is trap for a gish. They are for clerics and paladins.
Feat and spell options depends on what your wanna do with your build.
Not arguing the Abjurant Champion is great for wizards, cause it is HP and BAB-wise, but it does not a thing for Mage Armor. Mage Armor is a Conjuration spell, and Abjurant Champion affects only Abjuration spells. Check the errata; WotC quickly realized their mistake in their mention of Mage Armor in the class description.
Yeh, forgot about that. m'bad that's a houserule of mine.
I mocked up an EK build I thought would be fun to play a while back.
Elf. 13 str, 16 dex>18 from elf, 14 con>12 from elf 14 int>16 from elf 8 wis 9 cha. 20 points.
Take power attack and weapon finesse, specialize in elven curved blade. 1ftr5wiz/10EK. Transmutation specialist gives you bonus spells you'll use like bulls strength and haste and gives you a free +2 a physical stat, probably con. Arcane strike is a must. Take your weapon as your bonded item and enchant away.
My strategy for combat was rely on crits (imp crit elven curved blade) and extra attacks from cleave/great cleave. Con will be a tad low, enchant your weapon with spell storing and always have a Vampiric Touch in there for emergencies. Once you get Fire Shield, combat becomes all too fun.
I mocked up an EK build I thought would be fun to play a while back.
Elf. 13 str, 16 dex>18 from elf, 14 con>12 from elf 14 int>16 from elf 8 wis 9 cha. 20 points.
Take power attack and weapon finesse, specialize in elven curved blade. 1ftr5wiz/10EK. Transmutation specialist gives you bonus spells you'll use like bulls strength and haste and gives you a free +2 a physical stat, probably con. Arcane strike is a must. Take your weapon as your bonded item and enchant away.
My strategy for combat was rely on crits (imp crit elven curved blade) and extra attacks from cleave/great cleave. Con will be a tad low, enchant your weapon with spell storing and always have a Vampiric Touch in there for emergencies. Once you get Fire Shield, combat becomes all too fun.
solid advice
Although I'd be reluctant to make a weapon a bonded item. Too easy to get sundered.
Also, be generous with the use of spells that provide miss chances when people attack you. Things like displacement, blink, mirror image, greater invisibility, etc..
And if you go with a higher dex character, you might be better off foregoing actual armor and just relying on bracers of armor/mage armor.
And yes, Abjurant Champion is a fantastic PRC if you have access to it. Its all benefits and no drawbacks, and the benefits are quite nice. Even if it doesn't grant a bonus to Mage Armor--it still does to the shield spell that is automatically quickened and extended!
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I mocked up an EK build I thought would be fun to play a while back.
Elf. 13 str, 16 dex>18 from elf, 14 con>12 from elf 14 int>16 from elf 8 wis 9 cha. 20 points.
Take power attack and weapon finesse, specialize in elven curved blade. 1ftr5wiz/10EK. Transmutation specialist gives you bonus spells you'll use like bulls strength and haste and gives you a free +2 a physical stat, probably con. Arcane strike is a must. Take your weapon as your bonded item and enchant away.
My strategy for combat was rely on crits (imp crit elven curved blade) and extra attacks from cleave/great cleave. Con will be a tad low, enchant your weapon with spell storing and always have a Vampiric Touch in there for emergencies. Once you get Fire Shield, combat becomes all too fun.
I don't agree with your int being so low for something that is so caster focused. I would rather do str 13, dex 16, con 12, int 17, cha 7, wis 9. Then apply racial stats...make sure the int gets boosted to 19.
The main issue with PF core only fighter/mage is that unless your going the archery route, there is no way you can make a viable fighty focused one.
edit: Also two handed weapon is a BAD option to arcane bond as it has been cleared up that you much have the weapon in both hands to be considered wielding them for the purpose of spell casting...which doesn't leave a hand free. Yeah PF core is rough for making fighter/mages.
I mocked up an EK build I thought would be fun to play a while back.
Elf. 13 str, 16 dex>18 from elf, 14 con>12 from elf 14 int>16 from elf 8 wis 9 cha. 20 points.
Take power attack and weapon finesse, specialize in elven curved blade. 1ftr5wiz/10EK. Transmutation specialist gives you bonus spells you'll use like bulls strength and haste and gives you a free +2 a physical stat, probably con. Arcane strike is a must. Take your weapon as your bonded item and enchant away.
My strategy for combat was rely on crits (imp crit elven curved blade) and extra attacks from cleave/great cleave. Con will be a tad low, enchant your weapon with spell storing and always have a Vampiric Touch in there for emergencies. Once you get Fire Shield, combat becomes all too fun.
I don't agree with your int being so low for something that is so caster focused. I would rather do str 13, dex 16, con 12, int 17, cha 7, wis 9. Then apply racial stats...make sure the int gets boosted to 19.
The main issue with PF core only fighter/mage is that unless your going the archery route, there is no way you can make a viable fighty focused one.
edit: Also two handed weapon is a BAD option to arcane bond as it has been cleared up that you much have the weapon in both hands to be considered wielding them for the purpose of spell casting...which doesn't leave a hand free. Yeah PF core is rough for making fighter/mages.
This eldritch knight doesn't need too high of an INT score. The purpose of this type of EK is to augment fighting ability with arcane magic, and that particular EK shouldn't be trying to be a wizard if you catch my drift. The build only needs enough INT to cast his buffs. I've made an EK which I think might look very similar to meatrace's.
To add to meatrace's advice, if you can work one or more of the following feats in: Extend Spell, Brew Potion, or Create Wand in, you should have no shortage access to buff and melee tactical type spells. Of course you already have Scribe Scroll going the wizard route.
I mocked up an EK build I thought would be fun to play a while back.
Elf. 13 str, 16 dex>18 from elf, 14 con>12 from elf 14 int>16 from elf 8 wis 9 cha. 20 points.
Take power attack and weapon finesse, specialize in elven curved blade. 1ftr5wiz/10EK. Transmutation specialist gives you bonus spells you'll use like bulls strength and haste and gives you a free +2 a physical stat, probably con. Arcane strike is a must. Take your weapon as your bonded item and enchant away.
My strategy for combat was rely on crits (imp crit elven curved blade) and extra attacks from cleave/great cleave. Con will be a tad low, enchant your weapon with spell storing and always have a Vampiric Touch in there for emergencies. Once you get Fire Shield, combat becomes all too fun.
I don't agree with your int being so low for something that is so caster focused. I would rather do str 13, dex 16, con 12, int 17, cha 7, wis 9. Then apply racial stats...make sure the int gets boosted to 19.
The main issue with PF core only fighter/mage is that unless your going the archery route, there is no way you can make a viable fighty focused one.
edit: Also two handed weapon is a BAD option to arcane bond as it has been cleared up that you much have the weapon in both hands to be considered wielding them for the purpose of spell casting...which doesn't leave a hand free. Yeah PF core is rough for making fighter/mages.
Why do you need to start with a 19 int? By the time the character can cast 9th level spells (probably 19th or 20th level) you'll have 4 or 5 stat points from leveling and a +6 int item, if not an inherent bonus. Believe me, there's no trouble eking out another 2-3 points of int to be able to cast max level spells.
As to your concerned about the bonded weapon, I agree IF they are playing in a PFS game. The ruling is asinine and against all logic, and the OP ought to just talk to their DM. If you're trying to build an EK, you'll want to take full advantage of their capstone ability, and ECB is the best to do so with other than perhaps a rapier but that doesn't give the best PA bonuses.
Also, I believe your build is 21 points AND leaves the character with no con mod starting out.
I'd also like to say that for obvious reasons going a STR based character has a lot of advantages over a finesse character. I just like the flavor is all, feels more like a Bladesinger.
Oh, so as far as combat goes. You're going to have a lower BAB than a fighter of your level. This can be a boon, as you can choose to pick up stick and move tactics like Spring Attack and Vital Strike. I know, RAW they shouldn't work together, but either alone is a good route. Ask your DM. Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave works well too, but is situational.
If you go Ftr1/Wiz5 you'll get a bonus feat, personally I'd go Craft Wondrous Item. Just too versatile.
Oh, and yeah bonded weapon items can be sundered. I'll be honest, in 10 years of playing 3rd edition/3.5/PF I've only ever seen one weapon sundered. YMMV of course, but I think flavor wise the idea could lead to a lot of fun roleplaying.
Not sure how well your shield idea works.
You don't get to enchant your hit bonus until BAB 11, which is a long ways off.
Arcane strike is important arround lvl 5, not sure if this will work on a shield.
You get arcane spell failure from shields.
As others have said, 2 handers tend to be best for EK. If you don't want to go elf, the 2HS will work just fine for you. In fact, for much of your character's life it will do more damage.
I would recomend dropping your con or dex by 1 to up str to a 15. Then you can put your point into it at 4th.
Focus on buff spells and things without saves.
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I mocked up an EK build I thought would be fun to play a while back.
Elf. 13 str, 16 dex>18 from elf, 14 con>12 from elf 14 int>16 from elf 8 wis 9 cha. 20 points.
Take power attack and weapon finesse, specialize in elven curved blade. 1ftr5wiz/10EK. Transmutation specialist gives you bonus spells you'll use like bulls strength and haste and gives you a free +2 a physical stat, probably con. Arcane strike is a must. Take your weapon as your bonded item and enchant away.
My strategy for combat was rely on crits (imp crit elven curved blade) and extra attacks from cleave/great cleave. Con will be a tad low, enchant your weapon with spell storing and always have a Vampiric Touch in there for emergencies. Once you get Fire Shield, combat becomes all too fun.
I don't agree with your int being so low for something that is so caster focused. I would rather do str 13, dex 16, con 12, int 17, cha 7, wis 9. Then apply racial stats...make sure the int gets boosted to 19.
The main issue with PF core only fighter/mage is that unless your going the archery route, there is no way you can make a viable fighty focused one.
edit: Also two handed weapon is a BAD option to arcane bond as it has been cleared up that you much have the weapon in both hands to be considered wielding them for the purpose of spell casting...which doesn't leave a hand free. Yeah PF core is rough for making fighter/mages.
Why do you need to start with a 19 int? By the time the character can cast 9th level spells (probably 19th or 20th level) you'll have 4 or 5 stat points from leveling and a +6 int item, if not an inherent bonus. Believe me, there's no trouble eking out another 2-3 points of int to be able to cast max level spells.
As to your concerned about the bonded weapon, I agree IF they are playing in a PFS game. The ruling is asinine and against all logic, and the OP ought to just talk to their DM. If you're trying to build an EK, you'll want to take full advantage of their capstone ability, and ECB is the best to do so with other than perhaps a rapier but that doesn't give the best PA bonuses.
Also, I believe your build is 21 points AND leaves the character with no con mod starting out.
I'd also like to say that for obvious reasons going a STR based character has a lot of advantages over a finesse character. I just like the flavor is all, feels more like a Bladesinger.
You want 19 int because your taking a whole lot of wizard levels. If you wanted a character that casts spells to buff up and wade into combat, going 1 level of fighter and 5 levels of wizard is NOT the way to do it. In fact that is the problem with PF core. The EK only build is a caster first, fight secondary.
Or the DM decides to run it according to PFS rules. YOU may find it asinine, but every DM in my area rules it the way James said. And considering that is the current offical ruling, you can't assume otherwise...you can say ask your DM about it...but that asinine rule is what should be assumed as default.
emm 3+10+2+13-4-1=20. And you do start with a con bonus as human or half orc...but yes you do not as an elf. So what, caster focused remember? IF your going into melee, that should be after a whole lot of spells are in place to prevent yourself from getting smacked...and another whole lot of spells so you can hit with your measily 13 str and sub full BAB. I.e. you should not be getting hit very much as you'll be busy casting a whole lot anyways.
The thing is, you need both good dex AND str for a fighter focused fighter mage. As a fighter mage, bad dex is bad because you can not really use heavy armor...barring 3.5 ruleset...in which case there is a whole lot of other options you can do other then EK anyways.
I would lower your dex, and raise your strength. You will be a little short of BAB, so you need the STR for hit and damage.
Don't worry about Dex, 10 or 12 will do ya. If you're worried about AC, cast shield, or protection from evil, or anything helpful, really.
That's the general way to run a successful melee eldritch knight. You don't cast spells on people. You cast spells on you. Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Mirror Image, Fly, whatever the situation calls for.
This means you don't need as high an INT, since you don't need to worry about spell DCs. I'd start with an 16 str and int for starters, and see what points you have left.
And since you're using a weapon to do damage, you can safely drop evocation.
I'd also go with a one-handed weapon. You can always use it two handed when you need the extra damage, and switch back to one-handed when it's time to cast a spell.
And get to craft arms and armor as fast as possible. It'a one of the best tools you have, your ability to design the perfect weapon for the job.
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This eldritch knight doesn't need too high of an INT score. The purpose of this type of EK is to augment fighting ability with arcane magic, and that particular EK shouldn't be trying to be a wizard if you catch my drift. The build only needs enough INT to cast his buffs. I've made an EK which I think might look very similar to meatrace's.
Yeah so have I. Utter rubbish.
You need sooooo many spells to even get anywhere near what a regular fighter does that by the time you enter combat, it's over one way or the other. The EK is NOT designed to be played as a self buffer and wade into combat. Mechanically it is bloody aweful for this. What it does well is be a secondary arcane caster that can help with the cleanup for fun.
This eldritch knight doesn't need too high of an INT score. The purpose of this type of EK is to augment fighting ability with arcane magic, and that particular EK shouldn't be trying to be a wizard if you catch my drift. The build only needs enough INT to cast his buffs. I've made an EK which I think might look very similar to meatrace's.
Yeah so have I. Utter rubbish.
You need sooooo many spells to even get anywhere near what a regular fighter does that by the time you enter combat, it's over one way or the other. The EK is NOT designed to be played as a self buffer and wade into combat. Mechanically it is bloody aweful for this. What it does well is be a secondary arcane caster that can help with the cleanup for fun.
It's really not as bad as you're putting it. It's certainly no worse than a medium BAB character wading into combat, which happens all the time with rogues and clerics and bards.
For the first few levels (before your PrC) your BAB will only be a couple below a warrior. At 20th level you're looking at easily BAB 16 CL 17, IF you're not allowed any other 3.5 PrCs. With weapon focus ECB, and finesse, it's not a terrible +hit. Arcane Strike and weapon specialization later on help you keep up with damage. In fact, you'll only really fall behind about 10 points of damage a hit at higher levels due to lower strength. That's without buffs, without quickened spells or the aforementioned Vampiric Touch through the spell storing weapon, or EK capstone ability. You won't be this ultimate melee beast, but it's certainly viable and a very different style than a straight fighter/barb which I really like.
Again, of COURSE you will want a 19 int at some point, no question. But your assertion that you NEED a 19 in any score at level one as any class is absurd. 16 or 17 is perfectly adequate. My build is meant not the buff before wading into combat guy, but rather pick your role round by round guy. One round you may spring attack in, get a solid crit and down a guy, and spring back to safety. Round two you decide to throw down a reverse gravity. Round 3 you shoot a Scorching Ray or 3 at your oscillating targets.
Having a low Con hurts everyone. My character concept was having a low con but augmenting it by the transmutation class ability. Also, having a high dex isn't so much of a problem because part of my concept was letting them hit me and counting on damage from Fire Shield.
I was only sharing my build I was working on, not by any means suggesting it as the best of all possible options. A lot of decisions in my build are based on my character concept (roleplaying). That said, I find the term "utter rubbish" to be harsh and insulting. It operates best at certain play levels, and your playstyle will change dramatically from level 1-20 (if you play that long) but these are the things we accept with warrior/caster multiclassing as it is now. My build would be fun, versatile, and viable but not as a primary tank or caster.
It's not assinine or against all logic. Unless your spells all have the Still metamatic attached to them a free hand is needed to cast spells, and you need to properly wield your arcane bonded weapon to fully connect with it. If you want a big assed sword to do this with, master the bastard blade.
As to your concerned about the bonded weapon, I agree IF they are playing in a PFS game. The ruling is asinine and against all logic, and the OP ought to just talk to their DM. If you're trying to build an EK, you'll want to take full advantage...
It is asinine. Only two handed weapons have this drawback. Just having an amulet barely touch your clothes is enough for your bond to allow you to cast spells properly, but take a two-handed weapon or a staff and you are completely unable to cast spells. Period. Why even have those as options? I'm of the opinion that either a)wielding your sword in a proper battle-ready stance IS your somatic component or b)holding it in one hand or gripping its hilt while its still sheathed is enough contact.
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It's really not as bad as you're putting it. It's certainly no worse than a medium BAB character wading into combat, which happens all the time with rogues and clerics and bards.For the first few levels (before your PrC) your BAB will only be a couple below a warrior. At 20th level you're looking at easily BAB 16 CL 17, IF you're not allowed any other 3.5 PrCs. With weapon focus ECB, and finesse, it's not a terrible +hit. Arcane Strike and weapon specialization later on help you keep up with damage. In fact, you'll only really fall behind about 10 points of damage a hit at higher levels due to lower strength. That's without buffs, without quickened spells or the aforementioned Vampiric Touch through the spell storing weapon, or EK capstone ability. You won't be this ultimate melee beast, but it's certainly viable and a very different style than a straight fighter/barb which I really like.
Except that the cleric can become a full BAB with one spell. And can wear heavy armor and still be able to effectively cast spells. The rogue is sneaking and gets bonuses based on that...or flanking and sneak attacking. And they use their primary stat to hit with weapon finesse. The bard should NOT be wading into combat.
The first few levels before you enter your PrC, your a WIZARD. That one level of fighter nets you nearly squat. Even a few levels into the PrC, you pretty much a wizard...just down a spell level. You don't have the "options" until higher levels that a normal wizard wouldn't have. Hell even at higher levels, the straight wizard probably has more options anyways with more spells and all. The whole idea of going EK for options is bunk. Your giving up spell options so you can on occasion have some fun with the mere mortals. That's it. Tanking your int like that is a bad idea. Your a caster first with that many wizard levels. Now lets look at the AA build of fighter 4/wizard 2/AA 10. Now if the AA was melee focused instead of archer, NOW we have a build that can get away with self buffing and tossing out a damage spell here and there and pretty much what you described. That does not need a 19 int to start. For that 16 or even 14 would be okay.
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It is asinine. Only two handed weapons have this drawback. Just having an amulet barely touch your clothes is enough for your bond to allow you to cast spells properly, but take a two-handed weapon or a staff and you are completely unable to cast spells. Period. Why even have those as options? I'm of the opinion that either a)wielding your sword in a proper battle-ready stance IS your somatic component or b)holding it in one hand or gripping its hilt while its still sheathed is enough contact.It's not assinine or against all logic. Unless your spells all have the Still metamatic attached to them a free hand is needed to cast spells, and you need to properly wield your arcane bonded weapon to fully connect with it. If you want a big assed sword to do this with, master the bastard blade.
As to your concerned about the bonded weapon, I agree IF they are playing in a PFS game. The ruling is asinine and against all logic, and the OP ought to just talk to their DM. If you're trying to build an EK, you'll want to take full advantage...
No a staff is a double weapon...double weapons can be wielded one handed...been over this like a 100 times now and people STILL refuse to believe it. Whatever, don't believe the game designers if that what you want in YOUR game. But when discussing on a board, what they say matters more then what you think...even if I agree that the rule is dumb and you should be able to use your arcane bonded weapon as part of the somatic requirements.
It's really not as bad as you're putting it. It's certainly no worse than a medium BAB character wading into combat, which happens all the time with rogues and clerics and bards.For the first few levels (before your PrC) your BAB will only be a couple below a warrior. At 20th level you're looking at easily BAB 16 CL 17, IF you're not allowed any other 3.5 PrCs. With weapon focus ECB, and finesse, it's not a terrible +hit. Arcane Strike and weapon specialization later on help you keep up with damage. In fact, you'll only really fall behind about 10 points of damage a hit at higher levels due to lower strength. That's without buffs, without quickened spells or the aforementioned Vampiric Touch through the spell storing weapon, or EK capstone ability. You won't be this ultimate melee beast, but it's certainly viable and a very different style than a straight fighter/barb which I really like.
Except that the cleric can become a full BAB with one spell. And can wear heavy armor and still be able to effectively cast spells. The rogue is sneaking and gets bonuses based on that...or flanking and sneak attacking. And they use their primary stat to hit with weapon finesse. The bard should NOT be wading into combat.
You have better defensive buffs than the cleric. You don't need to flank like a rogue, and can have a higher AC. You fill a similar function to a bard, which is a very effective melee character, and your damage output is greater because you can be wielding a 2 handed weapon.
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You have better defensive buffs than the cleric. You don't need to flank like a rogue, and can have a higher AC. You fill a similar function to a bard, which is a very effective melee character, and your damage output is greater because you can be wielding a 2 handed weapon.
Better buffs then a cleric is argueable at best.
You don't need to flank or sneak...but that is the rogue's method so quite irrelivant. However your own to hit will be lower then a sneaking or flanking rogue without several buffs up.
That assumes that you think the bard is an effective melee...which I do not. And besides which the bard can use a two handed weapon too...all for the cost of a feat...and without diluting class abilities. Which makes them even BETTER then the EK for this purpose and they are still quite bad at it.
Except that the cleric can become a full BAB with one spell. And can wear heavy armor and still be able to effectively cast spells. The rogue is sneaking and gets bonuses based on that...or flanking and sneak attacking. And they use their primary stat to hit with weapon finesse. The bard should NOT be wading into combat.
It's really not as bad as you're putting it. It's certainly no worse than a medium BAB character wading into combat, which happens all the time with rogues and clerics and bards.For the first few levels (before your PrC) your BAB will only be a couple below a warrior. At 20th level you're looking at easily BAB 16 CL 17, IF you're not allowed any other 3.5 PrCs. With weapon focus ECB, and finesse, it's not a terrible +hit. Arcane Strike and weapon specialization later on help you keep up with damage. In fact, you'll only really fall behind about 10 points of damage a hit at higher levels due to lower strength. That's without buffs, without quickened spells or the aforementioned Vampiric Touch through the spell storing weapon, or EK capstone ability. You won't be this ultimate melee beast, but it's certainly viable and a very different style than a straight fighter/barb which I really like.
You don't get full BAB with a spell any more. My build would wear light armor. A rogue wouldn't typically have a 2hander and be power attacking, and if they were they would be on par with my build.
The first few levels before you enter your PrC, your a WIZARD. That one level of fighter nets you nearly squat. Even a few levels into the PrC, you pretty much a wizard...just down a spell level. You don't have the "options" until higher levels that a normal wizard wouldn't have. Hell even at higher levels, the straight wizard probably has more options anyways with more spells and all. The whole idea of going EK for options is bunk. Your giving up spell options so you can on occasion have some fun with the mere mortals. That's it. Tanking your int like that is a bad idea. Your a caster first with that many wizard levels. Now lets look at the AA build of fighter 4/wizard 2/AA 10. Now if the AA was melee focused instead of archer, NOW we have a build that can...
At level 6 when you've met the prerequisites for the PrC, you have +3 BAB. You're a wizard with a good str and combat feats. You're not as good as a primary fighter and you never will be. You're also not as good as a primary caster and you never will be.
Frankly I dislike your attitude on the subject. If EKs are so bad, why didn't you just post "lol EKs suck, don't play one". You may feel EKs are a horrible class, and you might be right, but that's not the point of this thread. The OP asked for advice in an EK build and that's all I'm trying to give him. Might he be better off as a full caster? Sure, but that's not what he wants to play or he'd do just that I imagine. My advice surmises, based on what he wrote, that he doesn't want to be a "caster focused gish".
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You don't get full BAB with a spell any more. My build would wear light armor. A rogue wouldn't typically have a 2hander and be power attacking, and if they were they would be on par with my build.
So to you, tanking your already bad to hit to do 12 more damage per hit at level 20 is equal to doing an extra 10d6 damage per hit...umm...yeah.... Math says no. Course there are those very few critters that are immune to sneak attack. But still, it's not the huge chunk it use to be. As for divine power...fine like full BAB...you don't get the extra attacks, but you do end up on equal footings before stat and feat difference...actually you end up up ahead.
At level 6 when you've met the prerequisites for the PrC, you have +3 BAB. You're a wizard with a good str and combat feats. You're not as good as a primary fighter and you never will be. You're also not as good as a primary caster and you never will be.
Frankly I dislike your attitude on the subject. If EKs are so bad, why didn't you just post "lol EKs suck, don't play one". You may feel EKs are a horrible class, and you might be right, but that's not the point of this thread. The OP asked for advice in an EK build and that's all I'm trying to give him. Might he be better off as a full caster? Sure, but that's not what he wants to play or he'd do just that I imagine. My advice surmises, based on what he wrote, that he doesn't want to be a "caster focused gish".
+3 bab is what a wizard 6 has. By good str you mean 13...or +1 better then a wizard and by feats you mean weapon focus for another +1...then yes you can hit +2 better then a straight wizard with a melee weapon...with your wizard HP. Or, you and your wizrad HP and BAB can play like a wizard and actually DO stuff.
EK is bad...it has some rather sever issues...but it can be playable...you just have to go in with some pretty good knoweldge of what the class IS and what it ISN'T. And the class isn't something you can play as you mentioned unless the difficulty of the campaign is adjusted by DM to be lower then the APs. Which maybe the case with the OP...but you can't assume that.
You don't get full BAB with a spell any more. My build would wear light armor. A rogue wouldn't typically have a 2hander and be power attacking, and if they were they would be on par with my build.
So to you, tanking your already bad to hit to do 12 more damage per hit at level 20 is equal to doing an extra 10d6 damage per hit...umm...yeah.... Math says no. Course there are those very few critters that are immune to sneak attack. But still, it's not the huge chunk it use to be. As for divine power...fine like full BAB...you don't get the extra attacks, but you do end up on equal footings before stat and feat difference...actually you end up up ahead.
At level 6 when you've met the prerequisites for the PrC, you have +3 BAB. You're a wizard with a good str and combat feats. You're not as good as a primary fighter and you never will be. You're also not as good as a primary caster and you never will be.
Frankly I dislike your attitude on the subject. If EKs are so bad, why didn't you just post "lol EKs suck, don't play one". You may feel EKs are a horrible class, and you might be right, but that's not the point of this thread. The OP asked for advice in an EK build and that's all I'm trying to give him. Might he be better off as a full caster? Sure, but that's not what he wants to play or he'd do just that I imagine. My advice surmises, based on what he wrote, that he doesn't want to be a "caster focused gish".
+3 bab is what a wizard 6 has. By good str you mean 13...or +1 better then a wizard and by feats you mean weapon focus for another +1...then yes you can hit +2 better then a straight wizard with a melee weapon...with your wizard HP. Or, you and your wizrad HP and BAB can play like a wizard and actually DO stuff.
EK is bad...it has some rather sever issues...but it can be playable...you just have to go in with some pretty good knoweldge of what the class IS and what it ISN'T. And the class isn't something you can play as you...
Ugh. So yeah, why are you even in this thread? Your advice IS just don't play an EK. Great. Thanks for the help. Please go away now.
Well, so much for giving the OP advice.
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Ugh. So yeah, why are you even in this thread? Your advice IS just don't play an EK. Great. Thanks for the help. Please go away now.
How is your advice which is based on houserules any better? I'm not saying he can't...in fact I'm telling him how to make one effective...without DM coddling or houserules. So who's giving the worse advice here? We don't know very much about the OP's game or DM here. Or hell what he wants to play. All we know is he wants to use the EK.
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I just got through building a PC that will eventualy get to EK around 13th level. Here are the classes I plan to take (based on character level): Ftr 1, Sorcerer 2, Ftr 3, Ftr4, Dragon Disciple 5-12. This then meets the requirements for EK without having to go a bunch of spellcasting classes, and remain an effective fighter.
You could take 2 levels of Sorcerer to get to EK at 12 (I believe my requirements math is right). This is due to Dragon Disciple skipping a couple of +1 to existing spellcasting levels as you progress in the class.
Then once EK is made at 13 (due to requirements needed to cast 3rd level spells) you just keep advancing your fighter prowess as you increase your sorcerer spell casting.
If you take human as the race you can cram in 7 feats when you reach 6th level. The Dragon Disciple is kinda cool class with some neat sorcerer benefits and has high HP for the fighter side.
I hope this plays out well. :)
Yeah for a fighter/sorcerer, this works out pretty good actually...just not an option open to fighter/wizards.
Alright: I've done several EK builds and to date I must say that despite everything that seems to indicate otherwise still spell is the best choice for armoring your EK. You want the swift action for other things than ignoring spell failure and it doesn't ignore enough to really give you enough AC.
Now since we have Still spell on the table I would recommend dropping the Dex to 12. By higher levels you can get other things to boost your Dex back up and mithral full plate (since with still spell you might as well get as much as possible) will only give you a +4 maximum dex anyways. I'm also a fan of mithral tower shields for this sort of guy but only if you actually are willing to cast touch attack spells for offensive capability.
One approach that I have had luck with is the mounted EK. You'll want phantom steed or to summon/call a mount and take the ride feats as well as weapon focus/etc in the lance. A dancing lance will take full advantage of the feats you have and leave you free to cast spells before the charge attack for the lance. If the lance gets a crit then use the capstone -- if not have a quicken spell ready for use as well.
The Dancing Lancing EK can rely on the lance to hit once a round for somewhere in the tune of 80~90 damage while still leaving him free to do whatever (including another lance attack himself).
With the mount you will probably take less attacks than normal and with the heavy armor and the spells you have available for defense you shouldn't get hit too often.
The reason Cold Napalm is saying that EK is more of a wizard with a bit of fightan attached is because the pre-requisites requires a lot of wizard with only a liiiiiittle bit of fighter.
Cold Napalm isn't alone in snubbing EK a bit. Because of the very wizard heavy requirements, when you enter EK, you have low BAB and little to no fighter "cool stuff."
A buff -> attack arcane fighter would be better off as a bard or as a weird homebrewed melee version of Arcane Archer. Arcane Archer is more or less the opposite of EK - very fightan heavy with a little bit of caster.
In all honesty? If you want to be an EK, and you want it to be buff -> attack, AND you are limited to the Core book, then there really isn't many hints or advice that can be given.
Why don't you play a tiefling? They get proficiency with all martial weapons, so you won't even need a Fighter level.
Ken
No they do not gain any martial weapons from race as they do not have racial HD, just like they also do not gain racial skill points,feats or HP without racial HD
See, I go a different way with the EK. Yeah, it requires a lot of Wizard, but that doesn't mean you have to keep taking more Wizard. I would do something like this:
1: Fighter 1
2: Wizard 1
3: Fighter 2
4-7: Wizard 2-5
8-17: EK 1-10
18-20: Fighter 3-5
By 20 you have BAB 17, Armor Training +1, Weapon Training +1 and you are effectively a 15th level Fighter for feats. You also have a Caster Level of 14 giving you 7th level spells. You can take the Fighter levels earlier or later, depending on preference, but if you want to be a melee EK, this is the way to go.
Now, you could look at this as "Your BAB is 3 worse than a Fighter and your Caster Level is 6 worse than a Wizard!" or you can say "Your BAB is 7 better than a Wizard and your Caster Level is 14 better than a Fighter!" After all what level spells can a strait Fighter cast? Yeah, that's what I thought.
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See, I go a different way with the EK. Yeah, it requires a lot of Wizard, but that doesn't mean you have to keep taking more Wizard. I would do something like this:
1: Fighter 1
2: Wizard 1
3: Fighter 2
4-7: Wizard 2-5
8-17: EK 1-10
18-20: Fighter 3-5By 20 you have BAB 17, Armor Training +1, Weapon Training +1 and you are effectively a 15th level Fighter for feats. You also have a Caster Level of 14 giving you 7th level spells. You can take the Fighter levels earlier or later, depending on preference, but if you want to be a melee EK, this is the way to go.
Now, you could look at this as "Your BAB is 3 worse than a Fighter and your Caster Level is 6 worse than a Wizard!" or you can say "Your BAB is 7 better than a Wizard and your Caster Level is 14 better than a Fighter!" After all what level spells can a strait Fighter cast? Yeah, that's what I thought.
taking more levels of fighter before EK doesn't help. In fact it makes thing worse. Yes you can take 4 levels of fighter at the end, but that doesn't really change how 16 levels of 20 played.
taking more levels of fighter before EK doesn't help. In fact it makes thing worse. Yes you can take 4 levels of fighter at the end, but that doesn't really change how 16 levels of 20 played.
Actually you should probably take MORE levels of Fighter before taking EK. Probably like Fighter4/Wizard5/EK 10 or even Fighter5/Wizard5/EK10.
So at 9th level you have a BAB of at least 6, just like a Rogue, but you also have 3rd level spells.
Paizo seems to agree with me. Seltyiel
See, I go a different way with the EK. Yeah, it requires a lot of Wizard, but that doesn't mean you have to keep taking more Wizard. I would do something like this:
1: Fighter 1
2: Wizard 1
3: Fighter 2
4-7: Wizard 2-5
8-17: EK 1-10
18-20: Fighter 3-5By 20 you have BAB 17, Armor Training +1, Weapon Training +1 and you are effectively a 15th level Fighter for feats. You also have a Caster Level of 14 giving you 7th level spells. You can take the Fighter levels earlier or later, depending on preference, but if you want to be a melee EK, this is the way to go.
Now, you could look at this as "Your BAB is 3 worse than a Fighter and your Caster Level is 6 worse than a Wizard!" or you can say "Your BAB is 7 better than a Wizard and your Caster Level is 14 better than a Fighter!" After all what level spells can a strait Fighter cast? Yeah, that's what I thought.
So you're someone who can't fight like a fighter, nor can they cast like a wizard.
Um.
taking more levels of fighter before EK doesn't help. In fact it makes thing worse. Yes you can take 4 levels of fighter at the end, but that doesn't really change how 16 levels of 20 played.Actually you should probably take MORE levels of Fighter before taking EK. Probably like Fighter4/Wizard5/EK 10 or even Fighter5/Wizard5/EK10.
So at 9th level you have a BAB of at least 6, just like a Rogue, but you also have 3rd level spells.
Paizo seems to agree with me. Seltyiel
It's been covered very extensively that Seltyiel wouldn't be all that good in an actual game. He's a level 20 that does 12.5 damage a swing, only has four attacks, and has three swift actions he needs to take - and he only has one swift action available.
The two biggest issues that EK has is 1) swift actions up the arse, and 2) very caster heavy requirements. The first one is really annoying as your standard EK has three things that require a swift action...and only one swift action to spend.
I would disallow it based on the Abjurant Champion alone. Some will just love the build though and some will hate it, but I do not think It will help the OP much.
Daverius - I like the shield idea, that's innovative. It'll cost you a feat and a caster level, but you might want to go Barb2 instead, and pick up Knockback. With the ability to drop out of Rage to cast if need be (fatigued of course, but not for long), it works out pretty well. Particularly with the "free action bull's strength & bear's endurance" of Rage. AC can be a bit of an issue.
Also, there's usually little reason not to take 6th level of Wizard. BAB and Saves make it nice. If you are an Abjurer you even get a school ability.
Ugh. So yeah, why are you even in this thread? Your advice IS just don't play an EK. Great. Thanks for the help. Please go away now.
When I see "Cold N..." and Vaarsuvius, I hit page down. Saves me a lot of time and stomach acid, as erroneous information and vitriol don't mix well.
See, I go a different way with the EK. Yeah, it requires a lot of Wizard, but that doesn't mean you have to keep taking more Wizard. I would do something like this:
1: Fighter 1
2: Wizard 1
3: Fighter 2
4-7: Wizard 2-5
8-17: EK 1-10
18-20: Fighter 3-5By 20 you have BAB 17, Armor Training +1, Weapon Training +1 and you are effectively a 15th level Fighter for feats. You also have a Caster Level of 14 giving you 7th level spells. You can take the Fighter levels earlier or later, depending on preference, but if you want to be a melee EK, this is the way to go.
Now, you could look at this as "Your BAB is 3 worse than a Fighter and your Caster Level is 6 worse than a Wizard!" or you can say "Your BAB is 7 better than a Wizard and your Caster Level is 14 better than a Fighter!" After all what level spells can a strait Fighter cast? Yeah, that's what I thought.
So you're someone who can't fight like a fighter, nor can they cast like a wizard.
Um.
Well honestly, if you could, that would be a problem. I mean c'mon, the bard who is often brought up as a better alternative for warrior/arcane caster can't fight like a fighter, nor can they cast like a wizard either. The problem with the EK isn't the EK, it's the journey getting there, as has been discussed thoroughly in other threads. That's not to say one cannot make an effective EK, nor provide good advice in building one.
Do you disallow the Abjurant Chamion because you do allow classes fro those books?
I see it as cheese and is banded. I ban alot of things and normally each game has a short list of allowed books and even then I may disallow things from an allowed book.
As to why I find it cheese, first off it's built around a spells that is not Abjurantion, it's full BAB, full casting and a new trick every single level{but 3 I think".
It is simply to good and fails at being a good PRC as it's a "How much can we over power this and make it a must have" PRC so common to the complete line of junk.
YMMV