Yeah, sorry man. You're relying on things that the CS doesn't say to make your argument, and I'm relying on what it does say, which supports the existence of pantheism through philosophies, most obviously through Diabolism and the Green Faith. And I've go the Core Rulebook explicitly backing up my argument.But it's alright that you don't agree! We're still buds! =-)
True, I hope the new CS does cover the new classes however. I can agree if ya follow one of the philosophy that have gods that you could venerate all of them. I still think you would have a main god, but I can see ya giving a nod toward the others. But I am not saying you could not have pantheism, far from it. I am saying you could not have a cleric without a god of some type. I think we are on the same page more or less.
I do think the oracle however was made to fit that role best and really hope they cover that in the updated CS.
True, I hope the new CS does cover the new classes however. I can agree if ya follow one of the philosophy that have gods that you could venerate all of them. I still think you would have a main god, but I can see ya giving a nod toward the others. But I am not saying you could not have pantheism, far from it. I am saying you could not have a cleric without a god of some type. I think we are on the same page more or less.I do think the oracle however was made to fit that role best and really hope they cover that in the updated CS.
See there! We are on the same page! Hahaha.
Right. "Godless" is misleading and, in my view, not possible. Divine power comes from divine sources, which are gods. So, yeah, you can be a cleric of "Strength & Light" but you've GOT to pray to the deities of Golarion whose portfolios encompass those ideals or philosophies. You can't just worship "Strength." You can embody and idealize it, but ultimately you've got to ask Torag or another sympathetic deity close to your alignment with Strength in their portfolio for those spells when you need them. And they'd grant them, because they'd see that you are a sympathetic embodiment of the ideals they wish to promote in the world.
I put a lot of thought on this subject with a previous character, who was an "undeclared" cleric. He carried about 8 holy symbols of various deities, went through the rituals of different faiths every morning and gave proper tithing and supplication to the various gods he prayed to for spells of different ideals/domains. They were all within one step of his alignment. It was a lot of fun and very interesting to play.
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Wow, this is getting alot of attention. It really doesn't matter what a book says or doesn't say as basically any rule from any book is optional as to how your group plays a given game.I as a long time GM would be fine with a player wanting to play a cleric with no specific gods and only a ideology to follow. I even played in a game long long ago where the DM only allowed clerics/priests to worship God, as in Jesus, there were no other gods In that world.
You obviously CAN'T tap into divine power without a patron of some sort.And I'm saying it is not obvious. Just because no one in the setting does is not proof that no one can. Hopefully someone will officially clarify it before too long.
Kinda is very much obvious as has been shown, the CS just doe not fit or back up god-less clerics. The world is made in such a way that is not possible and I have shown 3 place where it is obvious and clear.
Your free to do what ever in your Home games however.
You obviously CAN'T tap into divine power without a patron of some sort.And I'm saying it is not obvious. Just because no one in the setting does is not proof that no one can. Hopefully someone will officially clarify it before too long.
Well, I think that is where the entries for cleric in both Core and the CS come into play. Lots of statements about faiths and representation of gods on earth, but yeah, this isn't the first time this debate has erupted over undeclared clerics. I imagine James will be along shortly. Last time this happened, he said "you gotta have a god" but I don't recall what his clarification was regarding polytheism or pantheism or philosophies. That would be a nice quote to dig up right about now, eh?
I even played in a game long long ago where the DM only allowed clerics/priests to worship God, as in Jesus, there were no other gods In that world.
I would find that offensive really, and would have never played in such a game.
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Kinda is very much obvious as has been shown, the CS just doe not fit or back up god-less clerics. The world is made in such a way that is not possible and I have shown 3 place where it is obvious and clear.
All you've shown is that there are plenty of people who do not use the 'worship a philosophy' option, which does not prove that the option does not exist. If it were 'obvious' no one could use the option, the OP would not have asked the question.
That would be a nice quote to dig up right about now, eh?
Absolutely! I'll have to see if I can find it.
worship a philosophy is not the same thing, all of them that have clerics have listed gods. If ya worship no god, your not a cleric and gain no spells.
[I put a lot of thought on this subject with a previous character, who was an "undeclared" cleric. He carried about 8 holy symbols of various deities, went through the rituals of different faiths every morning and gave proper tithing and supplication to the various gods he prayed to for spells of different ideals/domains. They were all within one step of his alignment. It was a lot of fun and very interesting to play.
Reminds my of that guy in "The mummy" who keeps pulling out symbols and speaking different languages!!!
Was that how you played that PC?
Quite a bit, yeah. He was actually a very academic mystic theurge, and he had all of his holy symbols on the inside of his cloak, like a New York stolen watch dealer, and he'd rifle through them when he needed one. "Damn -I need to cast flame strike. Where the hell is my holy symbol of Sarenrae??? Crap! I left it in my other cloak!"
Apparently he cursed a lot. =-)
I think it's not unreasonable for a DM to allow a cleric of a dead god to have a full compliment of spells.
Nah, I think the Narrative Imperative pretty much requires godless clerics to be spell-less unless they defect, and narrativum is one of the strongest forces in RPGs.
The story pretty much has to go like this: Clerics bow to deity, gain power (invariably some, or maybe all, become very arrogant because of their power), and then the deity dies, making those guys powerless all of a sudden. For those who did succumb to arrogance, it's the Reckoning, and for the others, it's the Great Tragedy.
Not making them lose the power would be like a villain forcing the good scientist to work for him but not by threatening the life of his young daughter (which is fated to become the hero's Love Interest).
Plus, if they could get that power without the gods, why are there gods in the first place?
The trick is to go from the paradigm that spells are granted by a god or collective embodiment of an ideal, to the paradigm that the spells are powered by the cleric's own strength of faith.
But then it's not divine magic. It is not granted by a divine source. And that guy was never really a cleric of Aroden. he was a warlock who happened to agree with some powerful outsider.
Divine concepts in Pathfinder must be an outside force, not a subjective one. If the gods didn't matter, priests could believe in anything and get their power. The subject of their belief wouldn't matter, only its intensity.
It would also transform alignment from an objective concept (some acts are clearly evil, no matter who does them) to subjective one. That means you could have two paladins that are mortal enemies, and both smite evil each other, and it would work for both, on both, because each considers himself good and the other evil. Those paladins could rape, rob, torture and kill innocent people - they only would have to consider them Evil and themselves good for vanquishing them, and their deeds just.
Pathfinder just doesn't work that way. You can houserule it, sure, but you can houserule practically everything.
Let's look at the first paradigm from the perspective of the second. Gods might not be that busy on a day to day basis, but if they had to approve the spell request list for every cleric every day, they'd be overwhelmed with paperwork.
No, they wouldn't be. They're omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. They can grant an infinite number of priests' spell requests without any measurable effort and still advance their agendas. After all, they are gods.
Does this make sense? No, not to us, but we're mere mortals with a very limited understanding with the concepts of infinity (and, indeed, finiteness). Doesn't mean it's impossible, just that it's ineffable for us.
Assume that all living creatures (of the prime material plane) contain a spark of the divine, independent of the gods. Made of the same stuff, but not property of it. There are real-world religions that hold this to be true.
There are real-world religions that hold that the Ultimate Power is a big, flying spaghetti monster. There are real-world religions that believe in b#*+#*~ crazy stories about space aliens. There are real-world religions that worship airplanes. There are real-world religions that think you don't need to eat. There are real-world religions that belief that we live on the inside of earth, which is hollow. There are real-world religions that belief that the messiah projects his countenance onto food products.
Citing real-world religions is not really a good way to justify anything, because if you look long enough, you can probably justify everything as a religious belief.
If ya worship no god, your not a cleric and gain no spells.[citation needed]
So far I have found this.
The few worshipers who took up the mantle find it tough going; they don't gain spells if they're clerics, and they don't have much support except from the church of Iomedae (who has a lot of other problems on its hands).
Most of those who once worshiped Aroden have gone on to worship Iomedae. A fair amount turned to Asmodeus. There's a third but still minor deity of uprisings and hope named Milani who got a fair amount of his followers too (Milani is detailed in the upcoming hardcover Campaign Setting and Gods & Magic).
But overall... there's no active church of Aroden. And there are no clerics who receive spells from him. If you want to have a PC cleric of Aroden gaining spells, that'd have to be a special story element of that campaign.
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Godless clerics are possible under the Pathfinder RPG... as they should be. I'm not sure if they're possible in Golarion, though. To be honest, we probably just won't say one way or another and let each individual GM decide if he wants Godless clerics in his Golarion campaign; we just won't have NPC clerics without deities showing up. It's generally not good game design to set arbitrary "nos" into stone, after all...
So no, godless clerics are not forbidden in Golarion. None exist in canon, but they can exist if the GM wants. Link for reference.
This was covered in the old 2.0 forgotten realms hardcover. I am thinking the gods were bane, bale and cyric.......
One (or two) of the evil gods perished and the remaining god stepped into the portfolio and even granted spells to the former followers of the now defunct god(s).
Not quite.
At first, there was Jergal, Lord of the End of Everything. He was later succeeded by a trio of mortals-turned-godlings who wrested his power from him (actually, Jergal considered himself to wield ultimate power, and that this was really the same as ultimate powerlessness, so he willingly gave up his power to these three).
These 3 were Bane, lord of Tyranny, Bhaal, lord of Murder, and Myrkul, lord of Death.
During the Time of Troubles (when the gods were cast out of the outer spheres onto the material plane and forced to wear human forms), the mortal Cyric slew these gods (actually, not all of them - the ascendant mortal Midnight, got one of them, and Cyric had help from the god Mask, who took a sword for his avatar rather than a human body) and was later named their successor by the Overlord Ao when the Time of Troubles ended.
Later, the former mortal Kelemvor (like Midnight, one of Cyrics companions during the ToT) took over the position of Lord of Death, and Bane successfully orchestrated his resurrection and became Lord of Fear and Tyranny again.
Godless clerics are possible under the Pathfinder RPG... as they should be. I'm not sure if they're possible in Golarion, though. To be honest, we probably just won't say one way or another and let each individual GM decide if he wants Godless clerics in his Golarion campaign; we just won't have NPC clerics without deities showing up. It's generally not good game design to set arbitrary "nos" into stone, after all...So no, godless clerics are not forbidden in Golarion. None exist in canon, but they can exist if the GM wants. Link for reference.
There it is! Man -I've got some memory! Of course, I'd never have found it.
That's all good stuff. I'd be curious if the definition of "godless" means you pray to ideals like "healing" and "strength" without ANY deific influence at all, or if you just don't pray exclusively to one particular god to get all your spells (or, like Core says, "not devoted to a particular deity").
Yeah pretty much goes back to ask your GM, I would say no as to me it's clear you can not have them as JJ seems to contradict himself. If they are allowed why is Arodens church dead? Why is there not a single cleric anywhere as stated?
Yeah pretty much goes back to ask your GM, I would say no as to me it's clear you can not have them as JJ seems to contradict himself. If they are allowed why is Arodens church dead? Why is there not a single cleric anywhere as stated?
Because the death of the god shook the faith of the clergy more deeply than any could endure. Aroden's death wasn't a matter of faith, it was an observable event (well, several sources refer to his "apparent death," but it's on record as having happened). That can set a priest to some serious soul searching, during which, his faith is not strong enough to generate the divine power necessary to cast spells or work other miracles. A couple generations later, who knows? Which also ties in with the metaphysical model I posted earlier.
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So no, godless clerics are not forbidden in Golarion. None exist in canon, but they can exist if the GM wants. Link for reference.
Since he also said that Clerics of Aroden won't get any spells, at least, in canon, they really aren't great 'clerics,' although they appear to be able to retain the Cleric class, just without spellcasting.
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Since he also said that Clerics of Aroden won't get any spells, at least, in canon, they really aren't great 'clerics,' although they appear to be able to retain the Cleric class, just without spellcasting.
Agreed, but I chalk that up to misaiming of their prayers. They're still praying to Aroden, who cannot grant spells, instead of the ideals he represented, which can.
Eberron you could do so, was one of the things built into the setting as the gods may or may not be real.I thought the core rules took priority unless a setting said otherwise, so you should not need a deity. Thing about Eberron was that you did not have to be the same alignment on either alignment axis to continue to gain spells. They could also cast spells that were opposed to their alignment without a risk of losing powers. The other thing with Eberron was that you were allows to worship a pantheon as opposed to only one specific god.
Eberron is pretty explicit about clerics not needing gods. It's also pretty explicit that there's no absolute proof of the gods or even of an afterlife. It's one of the things that makes the setting fun!
Which brings me to my next point.
I don't mind godless priests, but they still have to be religious. In Eberron, the elves don't have a deity - the worship their ancestors, albeit in two different ways. And the kalashtar likewise don't have a single god, or a pantheon. Heck, look at the real world - Buddhism doesn't have a deity figure, but I'm still pretty sure it's a major religion. Even if they do go with a philosophy, it should be one that's focused enough to be a religion.
Good debate, guys! I enjoyed this thread today! Way to keep it civil, folks!!!
(Of course, I'm assuming we all got the answers we came for, right?)
The way I see it, there are two/three* real ways to gain divine power: Worship a god, or worship a cause. Worshiping a cause doesn't truly involve devotion to one guy. So, you could worship Aroden, or you could worship his cause, or the concept, but you wouldn't truly get power from him. Therefore, when he died, somebody who got power from him would lose their power. If they started serving his cause, they would get power, but it'd be more because they worshiped his portfolio then truly worshiping him.
*There's also the druid/ranger way, but them not worshiping gods is a whole other can of worms...
EDIT: Ugh, I came too late. Guess I'll have to save my 'flame them with smurfs' plan for another day... :P
We got the one we figed we would get. The way I see it is it's no, without having to say no. I still don't see why they just don't say it as they have dropped enough hints about it to kill a man. And with PFS going they will have to make a call at some point.
But yeah good debate all round.
EDIT: Ugh, I came too late. Guess I'll have to save my 'flame them with smurfs' plan for another day... :P
I would oblige you, but I must be in Sociology class in a half hour. :(
EDIT: Ugh, I came too late. Guess I'll have to save my 'flame them with smurfs' plan for another day... :PI would oblige you, but I must be in Sociology class in a half hour. :(
Ah, smurf it, I'll just watch Rocky and Bullwinkle reruns... <_<
You obviously CAN'T tap into divine power without a patron of some sort.And I'm saying it is not obvious. Just because no one in the setting does is not proof that no one can. Hopefully someone will officially clarify it before too long.Kinda is very much obvious as has been shown, the CS just doe not fit or back up god-less clerics. The world is made in such a way that is not possible and I have shown 3 place where it is obvious and clear.
Your free to do what ever in your Home games however.
I have not seen those places, but I did not read every post either. Throw me some page numbers please.
Edit: I think James post proves my point. Not being able to pray to a dead god, and not being able to get spells through a belief in an idea are two different things. It is a long stretch at best.
Eberron you could do so, was one of the things built into the setting as the gods may or may not be real.I thought the core rules took priority unless a setting said otherwise, so you should not need a deity. Thing about Eberron was that you did not have to be the same alignment on either alignment axis to continue to gain spells. They could also cast spells that were opposed to their alignment without a risk of losing powers. The other thing with Eberron was that you were allows to worship a pantheon as opposed to only one specific god.
Eberron is pretty explicit about clerics not needing gods. It's also pretty explicit that there's no absolute proof of the gods or even of an afterlife. It's one of the things that makes the setting fun!
Which brings me to my next point.
I don't mind godless priests, but they still have to be religious. In Eberron, the elves don't have a deity - the worship their ancestors, albeit in two different ways. And the kalashtar likewise don't have a single god, or a pantheon. Heck, look at the real world - Buddhism doesn't have a deity figure, but I'm still pretty sure it's a major religion. Even if they do go with a philosophy, it should be one that's focused enough to be a religion.
I was just correcting SS's statement, by putting out what was in the book. I am not using Eberron to justify anything in another campaign setting. The ability to be a cleric without a deity is not Eberron specific.
I don't have my book with me know, but ya know look up the 3 nations I listed. With clerics being possible without gods then
1: Aroden church is still active at lest a little as faith alone is all they need. So the civil war may or may not have went down, his bishops would still be in power and he would just be a "silent" god as the faithful know other gods have been locked away before.
2: Razmir WOULD have clerics and would be spreading the 'faith" of the living god. The CS points out he may not have them, yet the rules says he can
3: On paladins, well the rules says they do not need a god, and the CS points that out and covers that. Clerics do not get anything on being godless , yet the same page points out "clerics" of false gods being any class but clerics. As they can not have them.
The book shows they can not. It is missing the words "No you can't" but it is also missing the "yes you can" which it gives the other classes. Then you would also need to rework the setting if you allowed them and as they Chose to not talk about godless clerics unlike every other Divine caster that speaks louder then anything.
But as I said on page 1 like post 3 or 4. Ask your GM and paizo will most likely not come down on either side with this, even if everything they have said, printed or posted points to no godless clerics.
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My thing is that not even the Pathfinder Society guidebook says anything about clerics being required to chose a god. Even if the setting implies it, not having a specific rule in the organized play manual shows that it isn't set in stone. And the setting doesn't fall apart just because there is an option that no one in universe has used yet.
I just feel that all you have seeker is circumstantial evidence and no definitive proof.
I have yet to see any proof that you may, a whole lot that you may not, but none saying that you can.
I also feel that any PFS GM is within rights to not allow a godless cleric at a table. You simply can not leave that undecided forever. And they seem to say no without making a call, kinda very beat around the bush.
heh , yeah allowing them to pick just any two domains is not the best of ideals .
My thing is that not even the Pathfinder Society guidebook says anything about clerics being required to chose a god. Even if the setting implies it, not having a specific rule in the organized play manual shows that it isn't set in stone. And the setting doesn't fall apart just because there is an option that no one in universe has used yet.
I just feel that all you have seeker is circumstantial evidence and no definitive proof.
I'm not sure if you meant that there was no statement saying whether or not a "godless" cleric may exist in the Campaign Setting, but there is at least a rule dealing with whether you can have one for Pathfinder Society games.
For the sake of simplicity, clerics and Order of the Star cavaliers in Pathfinder Society Organized Play must select a deity from those legally allowed for play. The Pathfinder Chronicles campaign setting has a rich assortment of deities to choose from that should nearly always match
the sort of cleric you’re trying to play—dealing in abstract clerics is not something we want to see in an environment that’s supporting Paizo’s campaign setting.
Neat that settles that for PFS then, mine must also be out of date, your not alone there TOZ.
mines newer then tht, but not as new as blazej's it seems
For what it is worth, Gods & Magic explicitly states that gods grant spells, just as the Core Rulebook states they grant domains. I'm being very explicit here on purpose.
I think this simple fact alone precludes any sort of "godless" cleric in "official" Golarion, or, as Core states, a cleric "free of deific abstraction." The fact is, it doesn't make sense to pray to "Strength" and expect "Strength" to grant you spells, even in our high fantasy games, even if Core defines it as "a divine concept worthy of devotion." Rather, as I argued before, you've got to ask the appropriate, closely-aligned god or philosophy that represents that ideal concept in its portfolio for the power to cast the spells and domain abilities that they represent, and those abilities can only be granted by the grace of a divine power.
I think that fits everyone's argument here, for the most part. It accounts for standard clerics as well as pantheism, which I think is the proper term for the misleading implications of "godless." You just can't have divine magic without a divine source. In Golarion, the evidence seems to be that you can either pick one or draw power from the pantheon through philosophies. In Core, "divine concepts worthy of devotion" can stand in for gods, but I'm still not sure that "godless" is the term to use when you go that route.
EDIT: And, for what its worth, I guess the first officially pantheistic NPC in Golarion will be coming up in From Shore to Sea, because Lira Schruuven was specifically stated as being undevoted to a singular deity in my turnover, and instead administers the rites of many gods of the sea for the varied worshipers of Blackcove, who spend a lot of time trying to supplicate a harsh sea.
The only thing that gets me about the philosophies is not all of them have gods, so they would not have clerics from that philosophies alone. Although a cleric of a god could still follow one of those I am thinking.
The only thing that gets me about the philosophies is not all of them have gods, so they would not have clerics from that philosophies alone. Although a cleric of a god could still follow one of those I am thinking.
Yeah -I hear you, but there is a lot of stated leniency in that listing that leaves things open, and the Diabolism listing, in particular, states that followers of that philosophy supplicate all 9 architects of Hell as well as the structure of hell itself, so that gives some clue of pantheism there.
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EDIT: And, for what its worth, I guess the first officially pantheistic NPC in Golarion will be coming up in From Shore to Sea, because Lira Schruuven was specifically stated as being undevoted to a singular deity in my turnover, and instead administers many gods of the sea for the varied worshipers of Blackcove, who spend a lot of time trying to supplicate a harsh sea.
I think the Godclaw actually works too, but they actually specify five gods in that form of worship.
When you consider divine "mash-ups" like Shimye-Magalla (Desna and Gozreh worshiped as a single being) and the almost certain panthestic clerics of Vudra, the scene gets even more complex and vibrant.
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This does play into the subject of Rahadoum having a hard time with disease and famine that clerics would usually be helping with. Would they accept divine magic users that called upon sources other than gods, or is it an all-out ban on divine magic, period?While it's not a definitive answer, the NPC Guide entry for the man from Rahadoum mentions that their army uses Bards as field medics because of their healing magic. That makes me think that they aren't too keen on divine casters in general.
Ah, danke.
Looking back in the same book, it seems they're even more hardline about divinity than I had originally thought. Handing out shivs made for killing clerics and angels? Dude.
The guy's face isn't exactly a strong sales point for non-divine healing. S'all I'm sayin'.
I don't have my book with me know, but ya know look up the 3 nations I listed. With clerics being possible without gods then
1: Aroden church is still active at lest a little as faith alone is all they need. So the civil war may or may not have went down, his bishops would still be in power and he would just be a "silent" god as the faithful know other gods have been locked away before.
2: Razmir WOULD have clerics and would be spreading the 'faith" of the living god. The CS points out he may not have them, yet the rules says he can
3: On paladins, well the rules says they do not need a god, and the CS points that out and covers that. Clerics do not get anything on being godless , yet the same page points out "clerics" of false gods being any class but clerics. As they can not have them.
The book shows they can not. It is missing the words "No you can't" but it is also missing the "yes you can" which it gives the other classes. Then you would also need to rework the setting if you allowed them and as they Chose to not talk about godless clerics unlike every other Divine caster that speaks louder then anything.
But as I said on page 1 like post 3 or 4. Ask your GM and paizo will most likely not come down on either side with this, even if everything they have said, printed or posted points to no godless clerics.
1. that makes sense if they try to get power from him directly, but if they try to carry on his legacy through is ideals then they should still have power. The issue is they are worshipping a dead god rather than the idea of the god. Even by the core rules they would get no power. That has nothing to do with the CS rules.
2.Specific trumps general.3.Worshipping a false god is no different than worshipping a dead god. They are tryign to get power from something that can't help them. Once again even under the core rules they would not get power. Now if they tried to reestablish the ideas of this unknown god, then they should get power.
If the setting specifically says the opposite of rule of course the CS takes precedence, but that has not been seen in this case.
I disagree, but eh whatever we don't play in the same games so no need to agree now is there.