Cleric of Aroden Vs Cleric of No-one


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It's just been pointed out that a cleric does not have to have a deity. He can be aligned to 'strength' for instance, or 'Fire' or just plain 'Good'.

Which is fine, and it's how I've been playing any weird cults that the gang have been comming across.

But apparently you cannot be a cleric of Aroden. I'm just confused now. I can have a cleric of an ideal, but if that Ideal is Aroden it's verboten?

and if that's not the case, why haven't Aroden's clergy retaken some divine power back?

Batts


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In the setting ya have to have a god. Not all setting must have one but so far is seems you MUST have one and that one is very dead. If you could run off just ideal then his clerics would still be casting spells, which is not the case.

And ya just opened a can of worms by the way, as folks will point out like you have that by the RPG rules you do not have to have a god, however some settings allow that but not all do. This one pretty much must have a god to be a cleric

It does not talk of clerics being possible without gods in the setting book and in fact shows where there are "clerics" of a false god they are wizards or sorcerers not clerics.

In Golarion you must worship a god. Ask your GM however.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I would say that most of Aroden's clerics were too distraught by his death to even think of praying to another god for their abilities and never considered the possibility of gaining power from anywhere else. Those that did were absorbed into Iomedae's faith. I can't find any text restricting deity-less clerics in Golarion tho.


They are not talked about in the setting book, even godless paladins get a line there. And it talks about the "god" razmir and his "clerics" are ya telling me there are not true believers not a one anywhere , ever? Either there are none or they simply can not be clerics as there "god" is not real

Silver Crusade

This does play into the subject of Rahadoum having a hard time with disease and famine that clerics would usually be helping with. Would they accept divine magic users that called upon sources other than gods, or is it an all-out ban on divine magic, period?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
They are not talked about in the setting book, even godless paladins get a line there. And it talks about the "god" razmir and his "clerics" are ya telling me there are not true believers not a one anywhere , ever? Either there are none or they simply can not be clerics as there "god" is not real

I'm saying I couldn't find anything stating 'clerics must pick a deity'. I said nothing either way about if it was allowed or disallowed.

Dark Archive

Mikaze wrote:
This does play into the subject of Rahadoum having a hard time with disease and famine that clerics would usually be helping with. Would they accept divine magic users that called upon sources other than gods, or is it an all-out ban on divine magic, period?

While it's not a definitive answer, the NPC Guide entry for the man from Rahadoum mentions that their army uses Bards as field medics because of their healing magic. That makes me think that they aren't too keen on divine casters in general.


True, but no where {unlike the paladin} does it say you may not have one. Which to me means you may not as they go out of the way and say you need not for a paladin.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
True, but no where {unlike the paladin} does it say you may not have one. Which to me means you may not as they go out of the way and say you need not for a paladin.

Except in the Cleric class writeup, as you mentioned. It's muddled enough that we could argue it either way without any resolution. Hopefully someone will clarify it before some goes another ten pages arguing the unclear presentation.

Personally, I think deity-less clerics should only get one domain for the freedom to pick without restriction the way they do.


I think it's clear, I also think all your get from paizo is a "We have no plans to make a godless cleric NPC"

But he really needs to ask his GM, I think ya best not try it for a PFS game, but a home game he really needs to ask his GM as some like me will say no and others will say sure go for it.


In the Forgotten Realms there's a feat for drawing power from a dead god called "Servant of the Fallen". As far as I remember you couldn't cast Commune but also never could get your powers stripped from you (I have to look it up again). The drawback was that after your death you would become just another brick in Kelemvor's wall (dumb new cosmology, *grumble*).

While being cleric of a cause is mentioned in the core rulebooks it opens a can of worms. I think the only setting that did something like that was WarCraft until the RPG line was discarded and they retconned the Naaru in as an actual source of "Holy Light". Being Cleric of a cause just eliminates the only weakness clerics have at no cost.


Eberron you could do so, was one of the things built into the setting as the gods may or may not be real.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm fairly certain that in the Golarion setting you have to worship a deity in order to get powers.

Scarab Sages

TriOmegaZero wrote:
I would say that most of Aroden's clerics were too distraught by his death to even think of praying to another god for their abilities and never considered the possibility of gaining power from anywhere else. Those that did were absorbed into Iomedae's faith. I can't find any text restricting deity-less clerics in Golarion tho.

That's a good point; don't forget, the real people of the setting don't have the convenience of being able to check the rulebook and go running to the DM.

Many will have been absorbed into the church of Aroden's former herald, some will have drifted to other faiths that held similar ideals (Abadar being a likely one, IMO). Some will have felt betrayed, and fallen to the Dark Side. And some, like an NPC in LB1, will simply go through the rituals every day, in their empty church, as a shell of their former self.

Scarab Sages

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Personally, I think deity-less clerics should only get one domain for the freedom to pick without restriction the way they do.

Seconded, most times I get them proposed to me, it's plain that the player just wants to weasel out of any responsibilities to a heirarchy or higher authority.

I don't think there's a problem, with the cleric themself being deluded that they follow their own agnostic path, while unknowingly drawing power from a divine being. A being who sees no reason to dash the cleric's illusions.

This is more likely in the case of Chaotic or Evil divinities, since Lawful and Good clerics are, by their nature, more sociable, and likely to seek out others of their kind, to work together for the common benefit of society.

Evil churches don't tend to advertise their prescence, or go on recruiting drives. An antisocial person, who's been driven out of town, is more likely to find themselves holed up in a cave in the middle of nowhere, and having to start his own cult, using whatever monstrous creatures pass by. Get enough hatred and anger focussed in one place, and a passing demon may just smell what's brewing, and decide to sponsor him with spells, for the mayhem it would cause.

Scarab Sages

Don't we have the option for a deity-less cleric?

It's called the Oracle.

I think we're all agreed we want to avoid situations like THIS.

Dark Archive

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A cleric does not need to be aligned to any god, you could just pick 2 domains that you think would befit Aroden and call him/her a priest of Aroden.

Domains: A cleric’s deity inf luences her alignment, what
magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her.
A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging
to her deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain
(Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if her alignment matches
that domain. If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity,
she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual
inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval)
. The
restriction on alignment domains still applies.


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Thats the RPG book {which covers many setting styles }not the setting book. You need to show that line in the setting book. The paladin has such a line, the cleric does not amd goes on to talk about "false" gods have there clerics being something other then clerics

The setting simply does not say you may not have a god, it points often to you must have one. If you did not then you could still have clerics of a dead god, something you can not have in golarion.

And ya know this thread should prob be moved as it's in the wrong section.

Scarab Sages

The country of Rahadoum has thrown out all the gods, and as a result, has to contend with certain problems that can easily be dealt with in the rest of the world.
They go to a lot of trouble and pain for this ideal. Far more trouble and pain than anyone would willingly go through, if it were avoidable.

If clerics in Golarion didn't need a sponsor, they'd just set up 'The Church of Secular Humanism', pick 'Atheism' as their ideal, and have every citizen pick any two domains they like. Sorted.

The fact that they haven't, and the fact that Aroden's clergy haven't simply swapped to idolise his 'core values', implies that they can't.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Thats the RPG book {which covers many setting styles }not the setting book. You need to show that line in the setting book. The paladin has such a line, the cleric does not amd goes on to talk about "false" gods have there clerics being something other then clerics

The setting simply does not say you may not have a god, it points often to you must have one. If you did not then you could still have clerics of a dead god, something you can not have in golarion.

I love this discussion! I've got something interesting right out of the Campaign Setting, based on something it says, rather than something it doesn't:

The Campaign Setting does talk about multiple "philosophies" (page 176-177) such as the Green Faith, Diabolism, etc. In just one example at a glance, there are specific references to druids who follow the Green Faith, which means they don't worship a specific deity, but rather a tenet or philosophy of reverence to the natural world. And that's official.

In fact, this listing also confirms the existence of pantheism on Golarion, which, as pointed out above, is one means of playing a cleric not devoted to a specific deity, in that the PC worships an assortment of gods, drawing power from their various spheres of influence through supplication and prayer. Need to memorize cure light wounds? Pray to Sarenrae, or Pharasma if she's not answering the phone. If you need a flame strike, you might look up Iomedae.

I really dig pantheism, and many of my PC clerics are. I imagine them as chaplains in the army, able to administer rites of most faiths that are at least somewhat compatible with their alignment.

And keep in mind that these characters STILL have to be devote and spiritual, just as the Core Rulebook states. It is a requirement of the class to take it. If you read the class heading, you will find that they still have to have the spiritual devotion to be clerics, and like paladins risk losing their abilities if they violate their spiritual devotions. ANYONE casting divine spells is getting them from a divine source, whether one deity or many, or through a spiritual philosophy, so this all still makes sense even with examples like Rahadoum, an area that doesn't trust anyone channeling divine power no matter its source in gods, faiths or philosophies.

So, I think everything you need to explain this is all there, right in the Campaign Setting.

And to answer the OP. Could a cleric cast spells and claim he's getting them from dead Aroden? Maybe. But before too long, the other gods are going to get keen to the scheme, and stop granting him spells and domain abilities for not giving them proper credit, which is exactly one way you get "ex-clerics!" The spiritual devotion required to be a cleric, and the unswerving faith that makes the class what it is, means that followers of a deity, once that god dies, lose their powers and are too specialized and devote to simply shrug it off and follow the ideals of the god, ask for the same powers from another source, and expect divine inspiration. Faith is something much more than taking a character class.

B.


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I think clerics don't need to worship a god on Golarion. They can also get the power from an ideal if they believe in it.

The snag is that the ideal needs to be alive...

Of course, "live" doesn't appeal to ideals or concepts (though they do say that romance is dead), it's like a spiritual collection of belief in and adherence to that concept that infuses it with power a cleric can tap.

But if you worship Aroden, you don't worship the ideals he represented. You're not a cleric of humanity and progress. You're a cleric of Aroden. And Aroden is dead.

So you can either stick to your belief in Aroden - the actual god Aroden who is more than just a sum of ideals, but happens to be dead and unable to send you power - or you can start to belief in the things Aroden used to stand for. That way, you can still get magic, but you won't be a cleric of Aroden.

Might sound like a minor difference, but don't forget that this is religion. Holy wars have been fought for less.


KaeYoss wrote:


So you can either stick to your belief in Aroden - the actual god Aroden who is more than just a sum of ideals, but happens to be dead and unable to send you power - or you can start to belief in the things Aroden used to stand for. That way, you can still get magic, but you won't be a cleric of Aroden.

To everyone who does that: I find your lack of faith disturbing. Those who cop out like that will be in trouble once I return.


I personally do not like diety-less clerics. I feel a diety is an essential element of the class. I also did get the feel from the CS that philosophies were allowed as well as dieties for clerical powers.

But Aroden is not a philosophy. He was a god. One cannot worship Aroden and get spells, but could worship ideals of Aroden. However, they would then not be a cleric of Aroden. In a strict sense, a cleric of Aroden cannot have access to divine spells, just as a cleric worshiping themselves cannot then grant themselves spells.

I ask that all clerics worship gods, if only just casually. Those that do not, I deny them Domains (since the main reason you go it alone is some unique domain combination). I also do allow them to argue a certain domain should be granted by a diety, so I never have had any real complaints.


KaeYoss wrote:

I think clerics don't need to worship a god on Golarion. They can also get the power from an ideal if they believe in it.

The snag is that the ideal needs to be alive...

I agree; "the dead god Aroden" is not a "divine concept [..] free of a deific abstraction" (to quote the rulebook). It's pretty much the opposite of that.


Brandon Hodge wrote:


I love this discussion! I've got something interesting right out of the Campaign Setting, based on something it says, rather than something it doesn't:

The Campaign Setting does talk about multiple "philosophies" (page 176-177) such as the Green Faith, Diabolism, etc. In just one example at a glance, there are specific references to druids who follow the Green Faith, which means they don't worship a specific deity, but rather a tenet or philosophy of reverence to the natural world. And that's official.

In fact, this listing also confirms the existence of pantheism on Golarion, which, as pointed out above, is one means of playing a cleric not devoted to a specific deity, in that the PC worships an assortment of gods, drawing power from their various spheres of influence through supplication and prayer. Need to memorize cure light wounds? Pray to Sarenrae, or Pharasma if she's not answering the phone. If you need a flame strike, you might look up Iomedae.

I really dig pantheism, and many of my PC clerics are. I imagine them as chaplains in the army, able to administer rites of most faiths that are at least somewhat compatible with their alignment.

And keep in mind that these characters STILL have to be devote and spiritual, just as the Core Rulebook states. It is a requirement of the class to take it. If you read the class heading, you will find that they still have to have the spiritual devotion to be clerics, and like paladins risk losing their abilities if they violate their...

We use the concept of pantheons with a patron deity or two. All divine spells come from a deity in the pantheon. Domains can be chosen or mixed from the two patron gods. The way clerics become ex-clerics and require atonement is when they are untrue to themselves (breaking alignment without a good reason) or blasphemously angering the gods.

This seems more logical in settings where say, the priest of Odin also respects Tyr, Freya, etc... Paladins are still the "only one god for me" kind (like the shield-maidens). It seems to add depth to the characters with more of an old world way (like when many cultures believed in multiple deities). Monotheism works better in games where the divine casters draw from one source and there is only one...

Just my opinion though. :D


Kakarasa wrote:


We use the concept of pantheons with a patron deity or two. All divine spells come from a deity in the pantheon. Domains can be chosen or mixed from the two patron gods. The way clerics become ex-clerics and require atonement is when they are untrue to themselves (breaking alignment without a good reason) or blasphemously angering the gods.

This seems more logical in settings where say, the priest of Odin also respects Tyr, Freya, etc... Paladins are still the...

Oh, yeah -totally. I absolutely agree. And KaeYoss has a great entry up there explaining Aroden's demise and why his followers can't just get powers elsewhere, too.

Did we just win D&D? =-)


Don't forget from a metagame perspective it is easy to know a god is dead, but from the NPC level, there are rumours and mistruths to sort through. It would be easy for a NPC to believe this is just a test of faith, and wait for their god to return.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

KaeYoss wrote:

I think clerics don't need to worship a god on Golarion. They can also get the power from an ideal if they believe in it.

The snag is that the ideal needs to be alive...

Of course, "live" doesn't appeal to ideals or concepts (though they do say that romance is dead), it's like a spiritual collection of belief in and adherence to that concept that infuses it with power a cleric can tap.

That's one way to look at godless clerics, but I don't think it's necessarily the only way. Since the metaphysics of divine spells is very loosely explained, I think it's not unreasonable for a DM to allow a cleric of a dead god to have a full compliment of spells.

The trick is to go from the paradigm that spells are granted by a god or collective embodiment of an ideal, to the paradigm that the spells are powered by the cleric's own strength of faith.

Let's look at the first paradigm from the perspective of the second. Gods might not be that busy on a day to day basis, but if they had to approve the spell request list for every cleric every day, they'd be overwhelmed with paperwork. There are thousands of clerics praying for spells every day. Even if they delegate that power to their underlings, they'd fill their realm with petty bureaucrats tallying spell requisitions. Therefore, we can, and should, assume that power gets granted further down the celestial chain. Why not at the cleric level?

Assume that all living creatures (of the prime material plane) contain a spark of the divine, independent of the gods. Made of the same stuff, but not property of it. There are real-world religions that hold this to be true. Clerics are in tune with their divine side, and their faith in the beliefs they hold grant them the ability to harness this divine energy to cast spells. They may even believe it comes straight from the god they worship, but in a metaphysical sense, the god is only their focus.

A cleric of a dead god is still focused on his god. His faith may be that if he does what the god would want, his god will be restored to life some day, and this dedication grants him the focus to work miracles in his lamented lord's name. His faith alternately may be that although the god is dead, his work must go on, and this may be the focus he requires to wield his own divine might. A third possible paradigm for this cleric of a dead god might be that he doesn't believe his god died at all, and his strength of faith might be the power by which he wields spells in his god's name, powered, unbeknownst to the cleric himself, by the divine spark in his own soul.

It might even allow spells like Commune, which would let him contact a reflection of his god's living soul. After all, if the mundane masses believe that they go to an afterlife when they die, why wouldn't they expect the same of gods?

There's room for interpretation, and I don't think the rules themselves actually define the means by which spells are granted. You can put a variety of methodologies behind it to hold it up.


Brandon Hodge wrote:
Did we just win D&D? =-)

You don't win D&D until the DM concedes defeat. Which a friend and I achieved once. But only once.


This was covered in the old 2.0 forgotten realms hardcover. I am thinking the gods were bane, bale and cyric.......

One (or two) of the evil gods perished and the remaining god stepped into the portfolio and even granted spells to the former followers of the now defunct god(s).

This is not a game mechanic issue but an RP issue....

Let PCs pick two domains and be aware that they are following the portfolio of some diety.....or a minor diety......

Unless someone thinks select any two domains it overpowered!

Which two domains (that actually fit together) would result in an over-powered cleric?

I personally select artifice and knowledge as my two.


One thing here the Philosophies are not religions in and by themselves. They are ideals and such and do not have clerics. It states in the CS that they are religions they are tied to. Not all philosophies have clerics and the ones that do are clerics of a god not a philosophie cleric in and by themselves.

There are just to many places in the CS where it proves you must have a god. There is not a single cleric of Aroden, not a one..not a single one had enough "faith" to keep being a cleric. There are no clerics of Razmir he has a whole nation , but not a single cleric, not a one no where can not have one. The CS points out he can't have one. The nation of Rahadoum has outlawed gods, and they suffer for it, why does not one have enough faith in man to be a cleric? Why not one? not a single one anywhere?

I could hunt dozens of exsamples from the CS alone where there SHOULD be godless clerics if there could be but the CS's page on clerics makes it clear you must have a god. The paladin page points out they need not have one, the druid section points out them drawing magic from nature but the cleric page not one single line anywhere about them going without gods.

The thing is a cleric with no god simply does not fit the setting, As the OP pointed out if they were possible Arodens faith would still be active, still have clerics and still be powerful. After all, even if they can't hear Aroden they have faith in him, they KNOW he is there even if distant.

It just can not be done or it would change everything, no Devil ruled cheliax, Clerics of man would be all over Rahadoum and may have missionary elsewhere, Razmir WOULD have clerics and would be spreading the 'faith" of the living god.Druma would be full of clerics and not need to rely on magic items for protection, something the CS points out they do, they would have clerics all over the place.

And that is just 4 changes from not having gods, that one change totally changes the setting, you simply MUST have a god.


PF srd

While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)

and

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval). The restriction on alignment domains still applies.


That is the rules not the setting. The setting does not have clerics without gods. Not a one. Show where it states this in the CS.

It does state that for paladins, it does Not state that for clerics. It does however point out a Non gods 'clerics" are not of that class.

Setting always over rules the ruleset. This is a setting question so whats written in the rules does not apply in this case where the CS would over rule it.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Eberron you could do so, was one of the things built into the setting as the gods may or may not be real.

I thought the core rules took priority unless a setting said otherwise, so you should not need a deity. Thing about Eberron was that you did not have to be the same alignment on either alignment axis to continue to gain spells. They could also cast spells that were opposed to their alignment without a risk of losing powers. The other thing with Eberron was that you were allows to worship a pantheon as opposed to only one specific god.

Dark Archive

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While the rules of the Pathfinder *game* allow a Cleric to worship Banjo the hand puppet, that, IMO, is purely a matter of backwards compatibility.

Razmir and Rahadoum would work very differently if a non-God worshipper could become a Cleric, and, in Golarion, even 'minor' gods, like the Demon Lords and Archdevils, have mechanical differences than the 'big 20' gods (only four domain options, instead of five domain options).

In a generic Pathfinder game, or one set in Eberron, but using PF rules, I'd be fine with non-godly Clerics. But in Golarion, a Cleric would have to have a god, or the patronage of one or more gods (in the case of a follower of Diabolism, the Green Faith or that Order of the Godclaw pantheistic group of Hellknights).

Aroden, or Razmir, or Rahadoum, can still have healers and 'priests,' but they will have levels of Adept or Bard, or use other workarounds, such as Celestial Sorcerery or Sivanah-granted Shadow Conjuration (healing) spells.

An ex-Cleric of Aroden could turn to Iomedae, the officially sanctioned 'inheritor' of her sugar daddy's portfolio, or to some other diety that he feels is appropriately reflective of Aroden's legacy (such as Abadar, lord of the cities), but otherwise, he's going to have to trade in his Cleric levels for Adept levels or something (and, since this isn't the Realms, where gods don't live as long as most mortals before getting ganked off, this shouldn't be a common enough occurence that we need a real rule for it...).


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

That is the rules not the setting. The setting does not have clerics without gods. Not a one. Show where it states this in the CS.

It does state that for paladins, it does Not state that for clerics. It does however point out a Non gods 'clerics" are not of that class.

Setting always over rules the ruleset. This is a setting question so whats written in the rules does not apply in this case where the CS would over rule it.

Kenderkin's rule applies unless an opposing rule is found. I have only skimmed this thread, but I have not seen any evidence to counter what he posted.


Set wrote:

While the rules of the Pathfinder *game* allow a Cleric to worship Banjo the hand puppet, that, IMO, is purely a matter of backwards compatibility.

Razmir and Rahadoum would work very differently if a non-God worshipper could become a Cleric, and, in Golarion, even 'minor' gods, like the Demon Lords and Archdevils, have mechanical differences than the 'big 20' gods (only four domain options, instead of five domain options).

In a generic Pathfinder game, or one set in Eberron, but using PF rules, I'd be fine with non-godly Clerics. But in Golarion, a Cleric would have to have a god, or the patronage of one or more gods (in the case of a follower of Diabolism, the Green Faith or that Order of the Godclaw pantheistic group of Hellknights).

Aroden, or Razmir, or Rahadoum, can still have healers and 'priests,' but they will have levels of Adept or Bard, or use other workarounds, such as Celestial Sorcerery or Sivanah-granted Shadow Conjuration (healing) spells.

An ex-Cleric of Aroden could turn to Iomedae, the officially sanctioned 'inheritor' of her sugar daddy's portfolio, or to some other diety that he feels is appropriately reflective of Aroden's legacy (such as Abadar, lord of the cities), but otherwise, he's going to have to trade in his Cleric levels for Adept levels or something (and, since this isn't the Realms, where gods don't live as long as most mortals before getting ganked off, this shouldn't be a common enough occurence that we need a real rule for it...).

Thanks for that, I needed a laugh....


Set wrote:

While the rules of the Pathfinder *game* allow a Cleric to worship Banjo the hand puppet.

off-topic: I think that would be quiet funny, especially if it was a "battle" cleric.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

That is the rules not the setting. The setting does not have clerics without gods. Not a one. Show where it states this in the CS.

It does state that for paladins, it does Not state that for clerics. It does however point out a Non gods 'clerics" are not of that class.

Setting always over rules the ruleset. This is a setting question so whats written in the rules does not apply in this case where the CS would over rule it.

Both those say to "work with" the DM if you want that....

not "work against" your DM.

It is either or situation.
DM will either allow it or not.....

Occassionaly a DM will want to "hide behind" the rules and say the rules won't let me/ the rules don't allow it......

Still comes down to DM will or will not allow it..............

I would always go with the RAW and maybe even let the PC be the "one and only" diety free cleric in the whole CS. Why not?

A class/character/concept doesn't fit my CS.
So, can't there be just 1 in the whole CS?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The lack of godless clerics in Golarion does not prove there cannot be godless clerics, but only implies it. Official word would be nice.


wraithstrike wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

That is the rules not the setting. The setting does not have clerics without gods. Not a one. Show where it states this in the CS.

It does state that for paladins, it does Not state that for clerics. It does however point out a Non gods 'clerics" are not of that class.

Setting always over rules the ruleset. This is a setting question so whats written in the rules does not apply in this case where the CS would over rule it.

Kenderkin's rule applies unless an opposing rule is found. I have only skimmed this thread, but I have not seen any evidence to counter what he posted.

Umm the CS . Show me in the CS where it says you may. I can show you and have shown where it says you many not

It states paladins do not have to have one..it come out and makes it clear. CS overrules Ruleset ever single time. So show where it says In the CS you do not need a god as I have pointed out the world would be very different then the one in the CS if you could.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Bunch of stuff

I hear you, Seeker, and just don't agree. I'm not seeing refutation of what I proposed in your evidence, and certainly don't see "proof" in what the CS doesn't say. I'll stick with what it does state. But we might be arguing different things. Maybe. Point-by-point (and only because this is fun, dude -no snarkiness or ill will here):

1. I agree that there aren't any clerics of Aroden. Not a single one. Because if they are trying to get spells from him, they are dialing a disconnected number. He's dead. I never agreed with some of the above posts that you could get around his death by worsipping the ideals of Aroden instead. That's the whole faith thing that I brought up and that KaeYoss finished off with a great post. Maybe related deities like Iomedae would grant you a boon if you REALLY stuck to those ideals, but then your divine source becomes those philosophical ideals or even Iomedae if you made that switch, but NOT Aroden.

2.Of course there aren't any true clerics of Razmir. He isn't a deity and can't grant spells. Clerics who instead worshipped his proposed ideals would be worshipping those ideals, NOT Razmir, and I somehow doubt he would like that.

3. Rahadoum doesn't have clerics because they are outlawed. It doesn't say that they don't exist in the region, only that they get run off if they pop up. It only says they are outlawed. Someone who has drunk of the Kingdom of Man philosophy kool-aid is going to have faith in that, and the very belief in that philosophy precludes divine supplication or worship.

Listen -I'm not saying at any point here that a cleric can get away without actual worship. They have to, at the very least, pray to the multiple deities that represent their ideals and domains in order to be granted spells, but you seem unwilling to concede pantheism even with explicitly stated evidence in the Campaign Setting. If you've got a pantheistic cleric of, say, good deeds and healing, this guy prays to those sympathetic gods that represent those ideals, and he makes a little sacrifice or saves a little prayer to this one, then that one, and they grant spells because they want those ideals to be promoted in Golarion. I'm not sure how that doesn't fit.

Ultimately, I think what is getting lost here is the FAITH requirement for a character of this class. This isn't about just dipping your feet in the pool and giving lip service to some god. Becoming a cleric is serious stuff, and you have to dive right in to the belief in the god or philosophy of your choice. Whether you do that as the direct vassal of a single god or through the worship of multiple gods in the various philosophies, you've still got the have FAITH in someone or something.

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seekerofshadowlight wrote:
That is the rules not the setting. The setting does not have clerics without gods. Not a one. Show where it states this in the CS.

I don't really think you can conclude that it's impossible within the campaign setting simply because it hasn't been documented. You say they don't mention it. But I don't think they specifically contradict it. Godless clerics is such a rare occurrence that they didn't think to mention them. That doesn't mean they don't exist. The fact that they do mention it WRT paladins proves nothing. There were so many writers on that project, it's an easy matter for something like that to slip through the cracks.

If I were running in the Golarion campaign setting, and someone wanted to play a cleric of Aroden, and could offered an explanation on the nature of divine powers that I provided above, or an alternative that didn't occur to me, I would allow it.

Because, even if the writers of the campaign setting fully intended it to be impossible to be a godless cleric, they lost that control once they released the product to the public.

Of course, if this were a discussion in the Organized Play section, it would be a different matter. That would be subject to the rules and restrictions of the organization. It's worth asking there.

Dark Archive

TriOmegaZero wrote:
The lack of godless clerics in Golarion does not prove there cannot be godless clerics, but only implies it. Official word would be nice.

It doesn't say explicitly that there aren't any, but it does say explicitly that the godless priests and healers in Rahadoum and Razmir have special rules (a feat in Rahadoum, a special Sivanah-granted ability to use healing spells via Shadow Conjuration in Razmir) to allow them to compensate for not having any Clerics.

So it doesn't say 'can't exist' but it doesn't say, 'there aren't any, and we made special rules to allow certain cultures to function in their absence.'

Seems pretty explicit to me.

That being said, if I wanted to allow godless Clerics, I'd come up with other reasons why Razmir and Rahadoum and Aroden-worship functions the way it does, or just change it up completely and say that Razmir and Rahadoum have plenty of Clerics, of Razmir and 'the divinity of Man,' respectively, and that Clerics of Aroden are still around and functioning just fine (and probably ditching the 'Age of Prophecy / Death of Aroden' part of the setting entirely, and changing Iomedae back to one of Aroden's flunkies, instead of 'the Inheritor').

The only rules I'd need to implement would be Domains for Aroden, Razmir and 'the divinity of Man.' Going with the prevailing theme of only the 'big gods' having five domain options, I'd probably limit these Clerics to four Domain choices.

Aroden - Artifice, Community, Knowledge, Law (Earth?, Nobility?)
Razmir - Charm, Law, Magic, Trickery (Earth?, Evil?)
'the divinity of Man' - Law, Liberation, Nobility (Good?, Protection?)

Arazni would also still likely have Clerics, and War would definitely be one of her Domains (perhaps also Glory and Chaos, being less of a tactically-minded sort than Iomedae, and more of a 'glory in battle' sort, just to avoid making her a total clone of Iomedae?).


KenderKin wrote:


A class/character/concept doesn't fit my CS.
So, can't there be just 1 in the whole CS?

No there can not be..of you get no Cheilx war, you get Clerics of man would be all over Rahadoum and may , Razmir WOULD have clerics and would be spreading the 'faith" of the living god.Druma would be full of clerics and not need to rely on magic items for protection, something the CS points out they do, they would have clerics all over the place.

Simply put the CS would be a diffent world if just 1 was possable, as if there is one then faith is all you need and faith is not limited to just one and the CS shows faith is not enough you need a god or god like critter.


Brandon Hodge wrote:


Listen -I'm not saying at any point here that a cleric can get away without actual worship. They have to, at the very least, pray to the multiple deities that represent their ideals and domains in order to be granted spells, but you seem unwilling to concede pantheism even with explicitly stated evidence in the Campaign Setting. If you've got a pantheistic cleric of, say, good deeds and healing, this guy prays to those sympathetic gods that represent those ideals, and he makes a little sacrifice or saves a little prayer to this one, then that one, and they grant spells because they want those ideals to be promoted in Golarion. I'm not sure how that doesn't fit.

Wanted to address this. That is an oracle not a cleric. A cleric is the servant of a single god. The CS states this, the oracle however is the servant of an"ideal" and is powered by all the gods with that domain.


So are you the DM or the PC?


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
KenderKin wrote:


A class/character/concept doesn't fit my CS.
So, can't there be just 1 in the whole CS?

No there can not be..of you get no Cheilx war, you get Clerics of man would be all over Rahadoum and may , Razmir WOULD have clerics and would be spreading the 'faith" of the living god.Druma would be full of clerics and not need to rely on magic items for protection, something the CS points out they do, they would have clerics all over the place.

Simply put the CS would be a diffent world if just 1 was possable, as if there is one then faith is all you need and faith is not limited to just one and the CS shows faith is not enough you need a god or god like critter.

This post really revealed to me that my argument has maybe fallen on the wrong side. At no point am I saying that you can get away with being a cleric without worshipping a deity. As in, not giving supplication to any single god. My only argument has been that you CAN be polytheistic in Golarion, and that the philosophies back that up. You obviously CAN'T tap into divine power without a patron of some sort, but I think you could make a concession that you CAN tap into the power of multiple deities through the various philosophies, such as the Green Faith, which probably includes a little Erastil, a little Gozreh, etc.

My point is that the evidence for pantheism is strong, and the rules and CS both back that up. Totally godless, to use the terms bing thrown around? I don't think so. You've GOT TO AT LEAST ask for spells from the gods that back your philosophy or ideals, and that isn't "godless."

Cool!


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Brandon Hodge wrote:


Listen -I'm not saying at any point here that a cleric can get away without actual worship. They have to, at the very least, pray to the multiple deities that represent their ideals and domains in order to be granted spells, but you seem unwilling to concede pantheism even with explicitly stated evidence in the Campaign Setting.
Wanted to address this. That is an oracle not a cleric. A cleric is the servant of a single god. The CS states this, the oracle however is the servant of an"ideal" and is powered by all the gods with that domain.

Yeah, sorry man. A cleric is typically the servant of a single god, and there are other options. You're relying on things that the CS doesn't say to make your argument, and I'm relying on what it does say, which supports the existence of pantheism through philosophies, most obviously through Diabolism and the Green Faith, which precludes the worship of just a single deity. And I've go the Core Rulebook explicitly backing up my argument.

But it's alright that you don't agree! We're still buds! =-)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Set wrote:

It doesn't say explicitly that there aren't any, but it does say explicitly that the godless priests and healers in Rahadoum and Razmir have special rules (a feat in Rahadoum, a special Sivanah-granted ability to use healing spells via Shadow Conjuration in Razmir) to allow them to compensate for not having any Clerics.

So it doesn't say 'can't exist' but it doesn't say, 'there aren't any, and we made special rules to allow certain cultures to function in their absence.'

Seems pretty explicit to me.

All I'm saying is that a bunch of rogues and wizards UMDing to pretend they get their power from a god when they don't does not mean there are no clerics of Good in the land.

No one does =/= no one can.

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