Cleric of Aroden Vs Cleric of No-one


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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seekerofshadowlight wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


You have to choose what you pray to, and that determines if you get powers or not. If you pray to a living deity you get powers. Praying to a dead god does not get you powers. An ideal of something is not the same as the actual thing itself. The ideal of being Aroden like in nature gets you powers. Praying to Aroden as if he is still alive gets you nothing. Asking a dead god for spells is no different than asking a dead mortal for something. Either way you will be waiting for a long time to get any results. To carry this further praying to non-existent god is not any better. It is like trying to convince my imaginary friend to give me money so I can pay you back. Don't hold your breath for that one either.

SO ideals work? or do not work? Your trying to have your cake and eat it to here. Some fine wordy hoops your jumping backwards though that has nothing to do with RAW or the CS.

Yes or no, ideals can have power or can not. You can not have it both ways.

What I am saying is that you have to pray to the correct thing.

You can't pray to Aroden because he is dead and expect results. If your intent is to found a religion based on his beliefs then you should get powers.

Praying to a deity, and having similar goals are not the same thing. I think the difference between us is that you equate the ideal of praying to a deity's former portfolio(belief set) as praying to that deity. I am very specific because the core book is. Ideals to me are concepts like justice, good, evil, and so on. I don't even count praying to the ideal of Aroden as an ideal.

As a simple example, if it can become a domain it is an ideal. I can see there being a perfection domain, a domain of hate, and so on. Those are ideals.
I have already pointed out that dead gods and fake ones are not ideals, and that is why you can't worship them and expect anything. If the fake deity embodies certain concepts, and you worship the concepts as opposed to the actual deity then you should get powers. Aroden does not have clerics because he is not alive to grant them any powers. If his clerics could get power without Aroden, or any deity having any part in it then how could a deity really revoke a cleric's power?

Player: I strike the peasant down in anger
DM: Aroden takes your power away.
Player: I embody his concepts so there is really not much he can do. I still get spells. mwa ha ha ha.


So ideals are a no go then. You can not pray to them as they are not a person and have no mind...got ya

Aroden can think as much as the ideal of good and has as much chance as giving you a spell. As does the ideal of Razmir. Dead and fake gods are as valid an ideal as anything else. You can not pick and choose by RAW they are valid.

SO your saying ideals can not grant you spells. Or just ideals you do not like can't?


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

SO ideals work? or do not work? Your trying to have your cake and eat it to here. Some fine wordy hoops your jumping backwards though that has nothing to do with RAW or the CS.

Yes or no, ideals can have power or can not. You can not have it both ways.

You keep repeating that mantra.

What you don't account for is the possibility that one of the presented options is not an ideal at all and thus does not come into whether ideals have power or not.


By RAW its a god or an ideal, if the god is fake or dead it stops being a god and becomes an ideal. And thats the topic if an ideal can grant spells.

So yes they are valid.

Edit: I did suggest we stop as I am set and all they can come up with is "Well it's not an ideals because..well it's just not"


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

So ideals are a no go then. You can not pray to them as they are not a person and have no mind...got ya

Aroden can think as much as the ideal of good and has as much chance as giving you a spell. As does the ideal of Razmir.

SO your saying ideals can not grant you spells.

If you are a true worshipper of a deity then you will pray to that deity. If the deity is dead or false he cant answer the prayers.

That is why those two can't grant spells.

If you realize Aroden is dead, and wish to enforce the things he believed in that would get you power. The problem it seems with Aroden's clerics(or would be clerics) is that they dont seem to want to admit he is dead.

PS: You did not answer the question at the end of my last power about not needing a deity. To be more clear I was asking why bother with a deity when you can worship the ideal of that deity and still get power.

PS2: The ideal of the deity is not what I think is meant when you are allowed to choose an ideal. If I believe peace and wisdom are the way I should be able to get powers. If I beleive Asmodeus is the way, as an ideal then I don't get powers since Asmodeus is not an ideal.


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WS, if ideals can grant powers then yeah it does not matter if your god is dead, ya can carry on with little change in power if you have faith.

It really is very simple. If they grant power then Razmir would have clerics and Atheists would have clerics, and Aroden would still have an active church

And ideal is just that an ideal. If "good, or battle or lust" can grant you spells without being a living thing then the god being dead or false is no different at all.

As I said guys we have hit the wall. To me an ideal is an ideal. To you guys you place all kinds or restrictions on what is and is not an ideal, restrictions that are simply not there in the rules.

The CS setting as written does not have any god-less clerics in it. What ya allow in your home game is up to you.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

And that's my argument. The setting does not have any deityless clerics. This does not mean it can not have deityless clerics.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
And that's my argument. The setting does not have any deityless clerics. This does not mean it can not have deityless clerics.

and that is where we disagree...and gods above the ghost post freaking loves you man.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I find your stubbornness nearly as strong as my own, my friend. XD


Heh yeah, I have some of the most intresting arguments with you.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

To me an ideal is an ideal. To you guys you place all kinds or restrictions on what is and is not an ideal, restrictions that are simply not there in the rules.

Seeker, man, I love your tenacity, but you're overlooking some important aspects of the debate.

First, the rules DO define what an "ideal" is, and it can't just be anything. It is defined as "a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge." Like it was stated above, the sorts of "ideals" that end up being domains or powering philosophies.

Simple: Razmir can't have clerics because if they are worshiping his ideals, they aren't worshiping him directly. If they aren't worshiping him directly, then they aren't part of his religion. Similar case with Aroden.

I don't buy into that "we'll just worship what our dead/false god stood for and keep going." Faith doesn't work that way, and there is a lot of flavor text to back up what it takes to be a devoted cleric of a god, and if your god dies, a BIG light goes out in your life that can't be sidestepped by suddenly switching your fealty to the ideals your god once had.

And James left the door open for undeclared clerics in Golarion with his refusal to deny them, so you gotta stop using only half of what he said in your argument. =-)


I disagree, as he is not a god, worshiping hims IS worshiping the ideal of his godhood. Same with a dead god, he is dead so all you have is his ideal.

It simply is the very same thing and both by RAW are valid. Bout are worthy of devotion. One was a god with ideals and a massive following, the other you think is a god. Both count.

All that other stuff, is not covered anywhere. So really is only a scape goat folks made up so they dont totally screwing the setting as written.

And I was the first one in this thread to point out what paizo's stance would be. I am not half using anything. He said he thought no, but was not gonna say, the setting implies no. He also said they had no plans for a godless NPC's, Which ya know does not point to yes.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I disagree, as he is not a god, worshiping hims IS worshiping the ideal of his godhood. Same with a dead god, he is dead so all you have is his ideal.

It simply is the very same thing and both by RAW are valid. Bout are worthy of devotion. One was a god with ideals and a massive following, the other you think is a god. Both count.

NOW who's the one defining what is and isn't an ideal, Seeker? There isn't anything you just said that is discussed in the rules beyond your own presumption of what defines an ideal. It is the same presumption you just accused everyone else of making, when in fact we're quoting from the rulebook, which defines and lists several divine concepts worthy of devotion, yet we find no mentions of "the ideals of gods."

How now brown cow? =-)


Ah but see thats the point, You just did the same thing. Any ideal works or just Ideal you think win your augment. See how that works?

Who get to decide what it is by RAW? By RAW both the ones I listed are as valid as any other...now purple might not be, but then you could in fact argue that maybe purple could be valid? {Not to a sane GM maybe}

You guys are saying what is and is not valid with no proof it is not valid. Razmir is just as valid as battle and no where in the core book does it list not being able to use an ideal because it's not a god. The book gives exsamples so really your limiting it not what is written.

See the slop there? It simply is not defined.


Are you trying to make as little sense as possible?

A cleric has two options for worship, by RAW:

1. A deity.

OR

2. An ideal.

It's one or the other. You can't have both at once. A deity is not an ideal nor is an ideal a deity.


A dead deity is not a deity, nor is a false one, they both however are ideals.

By RAW all it calls the ideals is "divine concept worthy of devotion" then gives some examples.

So yes they are ideals as both are divine concepts.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Ah but see thats the point, You just did the same thing. Any ideal works or just Ideal you think win your augment. See how that works?

See the slop there? It simply is not defined.

I think it IS defined, and I think that DOMAINS define the legal ideals. Maybe that has gotten lost here. (continuing just because this is still fun, right?)

A cleric undeclared to a single deity "selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations."

Unfortunately for clerics who want to find a loophole to worshiping Razmir by worshiping the ideal of his godhood, there isn't a "Please Make Razmir A Real God" domain, just as there isn't a "Dead God" domain for those who want to get around Aroden's death, or a "Damn-I-live-in-a-country-where-divine-magic-is-outlawed-but-maybe-if-I-tak e-this-domain-they'll-like-me" domain.

You might not have to declare a single deity, but you DO have to commit to the ideals with the selection of your domains, and those are pre-defined, RAW "divine concepts," right?


What virtues do Razmir and Aroden have, those Are the domains you get...see they still fit the "divine concept requirement"

Any Ideal that can be made a "divine concept" by Raw. If you think about it hard enough.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I would say that whether Golarion has godless Clerics or not rules wise is up to the individual Dm, Fluff wise they leave it very vague (again to allow people at home to choose). Closest I have come it is in the ADVODAZA DEVIL devil entry in City of thieves part 6 where it says

False gods, fallen demagogues, nemesis devils—the fiends known collectively as advodazas survive from dark ages past, when mortals offered worship to base things and unwholesome spirits masqueraded as baleful gods. Although time and faith have turned against these beings, the most tenacious of their kind have refused to fade into oblivion, and to these obstinate corruptors and one-time deities the gates of Hell swing wide and welcoming. These lords of cults and masters of forgotten mysteries find renewed vigor in the depths of the Pit, and those seeking to renew their power and lordship over mortalkind undergo terrible indoctrinations and binding rites that transform them over the ages into true devils. What emerge are eidolons of half-remembered demigods, fallen princes seeking to claim their subjects anew, devils of faith, and fiends of blasphemy— the idol-clad advodazas.


As another point, if there's no difference between worshipping a living god as your deity or a dead god as an ideal, what's the point of having gods at all?


Kinda the point I am making really Umbral Reaver.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

What virtues do Razmir and Aroden have, those Are the domains you get...see they still fit the "divine concept requirement"

Any Ideal that can be made a "divine concept" by Raw. If you think about it hard enough.

I don't know about that. It doesn't say that, and the given examples don't lead me to believe that you can get far beyond loosely defined abstract concepts like "Strength." Keep in mind that all but one of the example concepts correspond directly to domains, which makes my point pretty strong.

Let's say you are in Razmir's church and try to be his cleric. At least that's what you'll claim. You choose Knowledge and Community domains, just as examples. Now, your devotion is to those ideals and concepts, and not to the direct worship of Razmir. Same with Aroden. Neither god is going to answer your prayers. Your chosen divine concepts will be granting you your power, and they'll be roughly equivalent to your domains. Razmir is going to see you getting power, realize it isn't from him, and immediately disintegrate you, sympathetic to his ideals or not.

Razmir won't like it because you aren't praying or receiving power directly from him- you're sidestepping his worship, because paying homage to concepts he supports is NOT directly worshiping some guy claiming to be a god. As for Aroden, he doesn't care because he's dead.


(And on a brief sidenote, we all know that the reasoning behind rules for generic clerics of "ideals" is to placate those who want to play the game that might otherwise find the concept of pretend-worshiping a false god in a fantasy roleplaying game to be against their individual real-world religious doctrines and beliefs, right? Just wanna make sure we're all on the same page there.)


I know why it's there, but only Know of one setting that used it. And it does change things big time.

Man We are not gonna agree on this ever. To me it's clear cut , black and white. And ideal is an ideal.

All we know for sure is Paizo decided not to include them in the CS and have no plans to print god-less clerics.

Other then that it's pure debate which has been fun, but I simply can not agree with you guys not in the lest. Godless clerics just change the setting far , far to much, and it would show.


But I wanted a retort to my Razmir-disintegrating-his-cleric example! Hahahaha.

This really has been a nice mental exercise, and still surprisingly flame-free with only a minor, minor hiccup with a couple of posts. Fun, fun. Kudos.


yep it has been interesting.

On the Razmir thing, I do not think he would, unless they became more powerful then him. Having nice brainwashed folks that would do nothing to hard him, do his will and spread word of his might and possible make him a real god? Yeah he'll use them suckers.

Scarab Sages

Set wrote:
While the rules of the Pathfinder *game* allow a Cleric to worship Banjo the hand puppet...
wraithstrike wrote:
off-topic: I think that would be quiet funny, especially if it was a "battle" cleric.

Like these guys?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Having thought about it somemore I would say that goddless clerics in Golarion is not possible by the fluff. Not because of the argument of whether it is physicaly possible or not but more because the Mantis god would probably kill them (Since walking around and showing that a person can get divine clerical powers without having to worship anyone would be seen as a direct threat to the gods in my book)

Scarab Sages

Brandon Hodge wrote:
Listen -I'm not saying at any point here that a cleric can get away without actual worship. They have to, at the very least, pray to the multiple deities that represent their ideals and domains in order to be granted spells, but you seem unwilling to concede pantheism even with explicitly stated evidence in the Campaign Setting.

Actually, pantheism is fine by me, and (I suspect) fine by the others in this thread, like seeker, Set, et al (feel free to jump in if I'm wrong).

If a player comes to me and says, I want to be simultaneously beholden to more than one god, well, go for it. You want to be tossed on the fickle winds of competing faiths, with three, four Grand Heirophants who can demand your services on a whim, and thousands more lay members who can cry out for your aid, then you've got my blessing.

A player doing that is actually imposing a disadvantage on his PC, in the form of extra RP restrictions. Assuming of course, that it isn't some long-term strategy, to get to high level then declare "I'm the Grand Poobah of Curing! You all need curing, right? That makes me Grand Poobah of EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!".

So, no, pantheism isn't the issue here; what's being discussed is players trying to play agnostic clerics, which is a whole other kettle of loaves and fishes.

I've seen far too many players over the last 30 years simply try to use it as a way to weasel out of the only drawback clerics ever had.

Scarab Sages

Brandon Hodge wrote:
EDIT: And, for what its worth, I guess the first officially pantheistic NPC in Golarion will be coming up in From Shore to Sea, because Lira Schruuven was specifically stated as being undevoted to a singular deity in my turnover, and instead administers the rites of many gods of the sea for the varied worshipers of Blackcove, who spend a lot of time trying to supplicate a harsh sea.

Congratulations on that successful submission.

Scarab Sages

Brandon Hodge wrote:
I don't buy into that "we'll just worship what our dead/false god stood for and keep going." Faith doesn't work that way, and there is a lot of flavor text to back up what it takes to be a devoted cleric of a god, and if your god dies, a BIG light goes out in your life that can't be sidestepped by suddenly switching your fealty to the ideals your god once had.

Why not?

That's exactly what a player would do.

DM: "The psychic shockwave reverberates across the multiverse, as you wake from your sleep, to realise that Bokkblag, the god of War and Destruction, has been slain by his rival Cherubia..."

Player: "Dangnabbit; hand me that eraser..."<rub, rub>....
<writes 'War and Destruction' in the 'Deity' box, where Bokkblag used to be>
"Right, all done, let's pray for spells, and go kick some Cherubic ass."

PCs are just NPCs, with delusions of importance; they act under the same cosmic laws as everyone else.

If it were possible for a PC to worship domains, without the need for a god, then it's possible for NPCs to do it just as easily, in which case, no NPC would ever pick a deity, since doing so is simply hamstringing oneself.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

WS, if ideals can grant powers then yeah it does not matter if your god is dead, ya can carry on with little change in power if you have faith.

It really is very simple. If they grant power then Razmir would have clerics and Atheists would have clerics, and Aroden would still have an active church

And ideal is just that an ideal. If "good, or battle or lust" can grant you spells without being a living thing then the god being dead or false is no different at all.

As I said guys we have hit the wall. To me an ideal is an ideal. To you guys you place all kinds or restrictions on what is and is not an ideal, restrictions that are simply not there in the rules.

The CS setting as written does not have any god-less clerics in it. What ya allow in your home game is up to you.

SS if you pray to a dead/false deity you get no powers. You have to point your prayers in the right direction. You have to specifically know you are wanting an ideal to flourish. There is no auto-correction. In other words if you pray to a dead god it does automatically default to being an ideal.

Once again I will ask if everything defaults to being an ideal then how can a deity control his clerics. By your logic if the deity decides to not grant power the fact that he believes in the ideal of the deity would still allow him to get powers.

Is this really your argument?


Snorter wrote:
Set wrote:
While the rules of the Pathfinder *game* allow a Cleric to worship Banjo the hand puppet...
wraithstrike wrote:
off-topic: I think that would be quiet funny, especially if it was a "battle" cleric.
Like these guys?

I am really thinking about a cleric with a puppet, kind of like Minsc from BGII. The puppet would replace the giant miniature space hamster.


Snorter wrote:


Why not?
That's exactly what a player would do.

DM: "The psychic shockwave reverberates across the multiverse, as you wake from your sleep, to realise that Bokkblag, the god of War and Destruction, has been slain by his rival Cherubia..."

Player: "Dangnabbit; hand me that eraser..."<rub, rub>....
<writes 'War and Destruction' in the 'Deity' box, where Bokkblag used to be>
"Right, all done, let's pray for spells, and go kick some Cherubic ass."

PCs are just NPCs, with delusions of importance; they act under the same cosmic laws as everyone else.

If it were possible for a PC to worship domains, without the need for a god, then it's possible for NPCs to do it just as easily, in which case, no NPC would ever pick a deity, since doing so is simply hamstringing oneself.

Man -that wouldn't fly for a second in my group, and it obviously doesn't fly for Paizo in their Campaign Setting, either.

But getting into this gets us beyond rules and into less defined territory. See my post on faith, above, or just read the flavor text of the cleric class in Core and CS. Listen, if you are a 15th level cleric of Aroden 100 years ago, and you've spent your whole life in his devotion, from a young boy aiding priests at the altar all the way to your final indoctrination in seminary and an adventuring career promoting his causes, you don't just shrug off the death of your god and say "Awww...shucks. He was alright, I guess. It was really what he stood for that ultimately mattered." No. Your god was the living personification of those ideals, and you asked him directly for the blassing of his power. I mean, you've drank the kool-aid at that point, and it is a little late to spit it back up.

The death of Aroden DECIMATED CULTURES. It destroyed a church. Your character, through the advancement of class levels through the rules, has taken level after level as a worshipper of Aroden. You've been praying DIRECTLY to him for power, not asking his individual 'ideals' aspects for spells. After some serious roleplaying, you could probably eventually figure something out, like ask for the grace of a sympathetic god like Iomedae to allow you into her fold, or discover a way to tap into the divine power of a sympathetic philosophy by asking gods with similar portfolios to not abandon you, but that's going to take some serious roleplaying, and a heck of a lot more than 10 seconds with an eraser...

Of course, if you started the game as an undeclared cleric that worshiped the same ideological mindset as Aroden's followers, but weren't devoted to him directly, you'd probably say "yes -our world has lost a great bastion of Strength and Justice," but you'd keep praying to those two "divine concepts worthy of devotion" that you always have, because that's how YOU were raised and nurtured, and get your spells as usual, despite the death of a god sympathetic to your cause.

In our groups, anyway, and certainly according to the CS.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
You guys are saying what is and is not valid with no proof it is not valid. Razmir is just as valid as battle and no where in the core book does it list not being able to use an ideal because it's not a god. The book gives exsamples so really your limiting it not what is written.

Now this is ironic.

Zurai: "You can't say there are no godless clerics in Golarion because there are no rules that say so"
Seeker: "You can't say Razmir isn't an ideal because there are no rules that say so"

...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
And that's my argument. The setting does not have any deityless clerics. This does not mean it can not have deityless clerics.

However PFS requires that every cleric pick a LIVING god. Since Aroden is in the place where all dead gods go, he's not a choice for PFS play. As a general rule in my campaigns, all clerics (and druids) required to venerate a specific diety (or group of dieties such as the Sovereign Host in Eberron if applicable). I suspect the no-diety option was put in there to keep the Christian Fundies happy. If I were running a home Golarian campaign I might allow a cleric of Aroden, but he'd get no spells, nor domain powers, since he's not around to power them.


Let's say that both are true.

1. You can be a cleric and get spells without worshipping a specific god
2. You can't be a cleric of Aroden and get spells

There could be more interesting reasons why this is true. Perhaps the rest of the gods (or something more powerful?) have a big hard-on against Aroden, and that's how he died, and also they are somehow blocking divine magic *specifically* done in his name!

Or maybe it's just existing priests of his got their power "burned out" when he died... Would a new priest of a dead god get powers? Maybe!

NEVER put rules over world. Put world over rules. Then figure out how rule exceptions happen.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ernest Mueller wrote:

Would a new priest of a dead god get powers? Maybe!

NEVER put rules over world. Put world over rules. Then figure out how rule exceptions happen.

That also means asking some real questions. What would bring a new priest of Aroden into the field considering he's been dead for HOW long? When gods die, thier churches tend to go belly up unless another diety absorbs the fallone one's hierarchy. Presumably most clerics of Aroden either attached themselves to a compatible diety, quit being clerics, or were slaughtered by the clerics of the gods that did him in.

If I'm not mistaken trying to pass yourself off as a cleric of Aroden in Cheliax is liable to get you into some really unwanted and involuntary interviews.


Well, sure, but there's always exceptions. Even today there is the occasional, uh... unusual person who claims to follow the Norse gods or whatever. I would expect a nonzero amount of people who are crazy, cussed, conservative, or some mix to still be all "woot aroden." I mean we still have Nazis around for goodness sake, and we had a world war to stomp their asses out.

Dark Archive

LazarX wrote:
That also means asking some real questions. What would bring a new priest of Aroden into the field considering he's been dead for HOW long?

In the real world, even when a church or faith 'dies,' there remain isolated pockets of people who follow those practices, in some cases for thousands of years. The azlanti-blooded kids in the fishing village of Podunk Point aren't going to know or care that Iomedae's followers marched into the grand temple of Aroden in Absalom and kicked all of the Clerics of Aroden who refused to convert out onto the street, after seizing their holy relics to 'repurpose.'

Their Adept of Aroden retained her powers (and, more importantly, her status as the villages spiritual leader), and has told them that the 'death of Aroden' they've heard mentioned from passing traders is a big sham put on by House Thrune of Cheliax, to try and get everyone to loyally goose-step to Asmodeus' drumbeat. Ten generations later, they could smile and say 'Hail Asmodeus!' to the passing traveler, and go back to worshipping Aroden in the privacy of their own homes and shrines, blithely uncaring that the rest of the world insists that their god is dead, since their NPC divine spellcasters have never been affected one bit by the 'death' of their god.

If the fantasy world is anything like the real world, there could be thousands of Aroden worshippers scattered around, some just too stubborn to admit he's dead, some utterly ignorant of his death, and some actively denying it, believing that this is some big test, and that they can only negate it by proving that their faith remains unshaken by the 'silence of Aroden.'

Quote:
When gods die, thier churches tend to go belly up unless another diety absorbs the fallone one's hierarchy. Presumably most clerics of Aroden either attached themselves to a compatible diety, quit being clerics, or were slaughtered by the clerics of the gods that did him in.

And yet 14% of atheists polled define themselves as Christians. They follow the scripture, because they think it's a good idea, or it's what their family has always done, but don't necessarily believe in God. Is the number in Golarion of non-deist faithful really ZERO?

Of all of Aroden's worshippers in Golarion, would there have been *none* who respected and valued what he stood for, but not been entirely convinced that The Last Azlanti was all that and a wedge of cheese (considering that the Azlanti are *also* associated with fun things like Thassilon and Earthfall). Perhaps a Dwarven Cleric who loved the culture and innovation and law and knowledge and history associations, but wasn't really worshipping some explicitly human diety, but the ideals which he represented.

Since he is thought dead, Cheliax, perhaps ironically, would be a very friendly place to the worship of Aroden. Iomedae's worship is counter to the rule of Asmodeus, and her clergy have power, while the doddering faithful of Aroden are powerless, and would make a powerful statement of encouragement to continue worshipping Asmodeus, if the only other commonly-encountered temples are filled with the sad worshippers of a god-gone-silent.

From an Asmodean standpoint, allowing the old temples of Aroden to continue functioning would just be good propoganda, as it would portray the 'other options' to worshipping Asmodeus as impotent and failed and pitiable things.


If a character can worship Razmir defacto via worship of him as an ideal, then a character can also worship their own self as an ideal. I'm pretty certain that isn't the intent.

Home brew, knock yourself out.....

But I'm pretty certain that isn't the intent.

As I see it an "ideal" is meant to imply that there is some element of cosmic truth to it. Not just anything one loon decides to declare to be his own personal ideal.

To me you can tie the problem in a pretty bow as follows:
If you actually believe that your personal ideals are adequate to fuel divine power, then clearly your Wisdom is below average. Your WIS score of 9 or lower prohibits all clerical divine spellcasting. Thus, Golarion very well may be highly populated with slightly to highly unhinged completely RAW approved clerics of anything and everything. But none of them can cast spells. (And it never occurs to them to turn or control undead..... :) )


Hah, I beat seekerofshadowlight to posting this! ;)

In this thread we have gotten a more definite answer from James Jacobs on at least some of the things being discussed here.

For those who do not want to read the entire thread, here are his posts:

James Jacobs wrote:

There's ABSOLUTELY panthesim in Golarion. As mentioned above, the temple in Sandpoint... one of the FIRST temples we ever talked about, is a pantheistic temple.

Clerics in Golarion generally have to worship a single deity.

Oracles, though, do not. We specifically created their flavor to support panthestic divine casters. Or divine casters who simply want to embody faith in a single concept (or "mystery") such as flames or bones or whatever.

and

James Jacobs wrote:
lordzack wrote:
Why should every priest be devoted to one god? It makes no sense to me. Why can't a cleric pray to all the deities in the pantheon, calling upon whichever makes sense for whatever spell they're casting at the moment?

Because that's how we define the role of the cleric class. A servant of a single specific deity who gains magical powers in return for his/her servitude.

As I mention in my previous post, characters who generally recieve magical powers for pantheistic worship do exist in Golarion: oracles (or arguably druids or even paladins or rangers). They're not clerics, though.

Same as for arcane spellcasters who don't learn spells and study them with spellbooks; those guys aren't wizards, and part of being a wizard is your spellbook.

Of course, feel free to change things how you want in your game. In Golarion, though, the official way clerics work is one deity.

Note that the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebok is NOT a "Golarion-only" book. But we do retain the flavor of "clerics worship a deity" for the same reason we retain the flavor of "wizards use spellbooks" or "barbarians have rage powers." It's all part of what defines the class as what it is.

and

James Jacobs wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

It would be a setting thing. In Golarion the CS does not cover this , but there is one instance and that is the order of the Godclaw, They worship a some called heretical teaching that combines Asmodeus Abadar, Iomedae,

Irori, and Torag. They have the domains of Glory, Law, Protection, Strength, and War. Their favored weapon is the morningstar.

This is the one and only example I know of, although many push for the four philosophy from the CS, but only one of those has more then one god,and one has no gods.And in any case those do not seem to grant domains or have clerics who are not clerics of a god.

You still need to pick a deity in Golarion in order to be able to pick your domains. Even if you're a member of the order of, say, the Godclaw. Note that there's more than clerics in that order.

Enjoy!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Here's a handy way to look at it from a strict rules perspective.

If something lists "granted domains," a cleric can worship it. We generally list granted domains only for deities; I'm not aware of having done so for things like philosophies.

Other divine classes either don't gain domains or get to pick from a set list of domains, and those classes CAN worship things like philosophies or pantheons or whatever.


Yeah I pointed that out a while back and was shoot down about the oracle

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:

Hah, I beat seekerofshadowlight to posting this! ;)

Nah I passed my will save and was gonna leave it alone till the next time it came up. I do have all those now saved on my HD however.

Sczarni

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

Casting necromancy on thread

Kevin Mack wrote:

I would say that whether Golarion has godless Clerics or not rules wise is up to the individual Dm, Fluff wise they leave it very vague (again to allow people at home to choose). Closest I have come it is in the ADVODAZA DEVIL devil entry in City of thieves part 6 where it says

and

James Jacobs wrote:

Here's a handy way to look at it from a strict rules perspective.

If something lists "granted domains," a cleric can worship it. We generally list granted domains only for deities; I'm not aware of having done so for things like philosophies.

Heart of the Jungle page 19 have shamans that take levels of cleric without worshiping a specific god, instead can choose certain domains to represent their worship of the nature spirits

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Cpt_kirstov wrote:

Casting necromancy on thread

Kevin Mack wrote:

I would say that whether Golarion has godless Clerics or not rules wise is up to the individual Dm, Fluff wise they leave it very vague (again to allow people at home to choose). Closest I have come it is in the ADVODAZA DEVIL devil entry in City of thieves part 6 where it says

and

James Jacobs wrote:

Here's a handy way to look at it from a strict rules perspective.

If something lists "granted domains," a cleric can worship it. We generally list granted domains only for deities; I'm not aware of having done so for things like philosophies.

Heart of the Jungle page 19 have shamans that take levels of cleric without worshiping a specific god, instead can choose certain domains to represent their worship of the nature spirits

That's unfortunate and should never have gotten into print. I can't control everything that comes out under the Pathfinder Chronicles line, I guess.

Those shamans should not be clerics, actually. They should be adepts or druids.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

*kicks the corpse* Just won't stay down.

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