See, if I said that to my players, the first thing they would say is "Great! That means I can rage for 1 round and stop using my daily rage allotment and the adrenaline in my system will keep me raging and keep my bonuses for 20 more rounds!"Goose/gander.
If Rage ends immediately when a conscious barbarian stops raging, then there is no reason to have Rage keep going for two whole minutes when he's unconscious - other than to make a silly concept to fix a perceived mechanical problem (I'n not picking on you specifically, I'm picking on D&D in general).
That sounds like a very good point and I was almost at the point of thinking it destroyed the idea of unconscious rage completely.
HOWEVER, rage is not really a decision of the Character, its a decision of the Player. Rage points are simply used to ration the use of the power in game terms. In a roleplay sense, the adrenaline is still there "because it is", not because the Barb has rage points left. The suggestion made by the previous poster that there is a real world justification for this whilst being unconscious doesn't imply you need to give free rage rounds- the adrenaline is only there as long as you have rage points and spend them, otherwise its run its course.
You know what ... considering this "Adrenaline" thing, I think the least intrusive *fix* to this perceived problem would actually be to allow the rage to continue on even past unconsciousness, or whatever. It'll keep the guy alive longer, and so WHAT if a PC want's to burn his 14 rounds of rage "staying alive in rage unconscious" so that the healer can get to him? If he's got the rounds - why not burn 'em to stay alive?
I'm all for PC survivability, which is why this ability and it's changes irk the crap out of me. NO other class has a feature that encourages them to die!!!
If they role play well, a Paladin smite's the crap out of evil things all day long. A Ranger will track the HELL out of his specialized prey and kill 'em right quick, too! Rogue's, if they get the drop on you, will show you what your damn KIDNEY looks like!! Magic classes ... well, they've freakin' got MAGIC!!!! Barbarians - get *partial* HP's so they can fight *more*, but really, if they *do* fight more, they freakin' die.
NO other class has ANY sort of advantage that will lead to death ... barbarians, do. It's crap. This is not even getting into the 1/rage powers and the freakin' level 17 "rage on/rage off" trick (which is LAME beyond all reason!!!).
I've got a suggestion... how about an alternate class feature? Why not just give the Barbarian the Diehard feat as a class feature. Allot of people are complaining about having to take the Diehard feat to fix the "problem" as they see it. However, most Barbarians are all about being tough as nails warriors who love the thrill of battle anyway.
Why not create a alternate class feature that can be taken instead of Uncanny Dodge? (Which never really made sense to me anyway.) Edit: Or include it as a Rage Power.
THUS... the feat becomes part of the game mechanic for the Barbarian and fixes the "problem".
HOWEVER, rage is not really a decision of the Character, its a decision of the Player. Rage points are simply used to ration the use of the power in game terms. In a roleplay sense, the adrenaline is still there "because it is", not because the Barb has rage points left. The suggestion made by the previous poster that there is a real world justification for this whilst being unconscious doesn't imply you need to give free rage rounds- the adrenaline is only there as long as you have rage points and spend them, otherwise its run its course.
Yes, I thought of that too. But a barbarian doesn't have that many rage points. Making them tick off their rage points when they're unconscious is like making a bard tick of his music while he's unconscious (humming in his sleep?) or making a sorcerer cast his limited number of spells while unconscious (casting in his sleep?)
I would count it dreadfully unfair to a class to KO them on round 3 of an 8 round battle, have them healed at the end of the fight, and then tell the player "Well, while you were unconscious, you used up all (most) of your remaining uses of your primary quintessential class ability. Too bad."
That's unneccissarily punitive to only one class - why is the barbarian's problem (if there is one) so eggregious that we must fix it by potentially robbing him of his main class ability?
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Barbarians = hit point sponge
Thus, when you're complaining about the barbarian dying because he ran in and took more damage than his normal hitpoints, you're complaining about the consequences of playing a class who's primary goal is to walk on the razor edge of death.
Bonus hitpoints are designed only to let the barbarian step a little over that edge and step back. If he's not yelling for heals, or chugging potions, once he goes past his base health, that's his problem for using a class feature the wrong way.
Heck, do you blame the class when the paladin kills children and loses his abilities? No, because the paladin used his class feature the wrong way.
How about when a shadow dancer's summon dies and he eats a negative level?
Or when the wizard fireballs himself and sets off his necklace of fireballs all at once because he wasn't thinking?
When a rogue tries to sneak attack a creature that's immune and gets owned?
Bonus health gives the barbarian the chance to shout out "Need Food Badly!" while he's swinging. Even giving him the opportunity to chug a heal pot to stay alive.
Complaining that the barbarian dies when he goes -30 hitpoints? No, not there. I think the real problem is that people seem to think that temporary hitpoints are as good as regular ones. Well, they're not. They can expire, disappear, be dispelled, and otherwise have bad things happen to them. They're the margin of error the barbarian gets because the class tends to eat most of the damage. If you try to take your margin of error too far, you die. Just like any other character, except you went an extra - 30hp before you got there.
Barbarians are the iconic "big dumb meat shields", but that's not really true of them. From a naturalistic point of view, they are the clerics to the fighters wizard.
Fighters should fight smart. Barbarians fight cleverly. They're all about mobility, hitting the bad guys where it's going to hurt them the most. The rage powers make a lot more sense in that context.
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Now, the rest of the barbarian so called "powers" expect you to fight clever, and there is little to no way that you can be effective an NOT clever with a barbarian, hell, if you play clever you are still lagging behind the other melee classes, imagine if you don't do it right. And that, also pisses me off.
I tend to think of it as "Animal Cunning" and not as "Clever", makes it more fun to RP.
Yes, I thought of that too. But a barbarian doesn't have that many rage points. Making them tick off their rage points when they're unconscious is like making a bard tick of his music while he's unconscious (humming in his sleep?) or making a sorcerer cast his limited number of spells while unconscious (casting in his sleep?)I would count it dreadfully unfair to a class to KO them on round 3 of an 8 round battle, have them healed at the end of the fight, and then tell the player "Well, while you were unconscious, you used up all (most) of your remaining uses of your primary quintessential class ability. Too bad."
That's unneccissarily punitive to only one class - why is the barbarian's problem (if there is one) so eggregious that we must fix it by potentially robbing him of his main class ability?
But hang on a minute- allowing them to rage on when unconscious is keeping them ALIVE!!! (Also, they aren't obliged to continue raging if they don't mind being dead lol).
I certainly take your point that he would be depleting his future rage ability, but surely its better to be weakened until the next rest than DEAD?I must admit that the point you make about not having that many rage points has occurred to me and I am not sure how much it would keep them alive in practice, but it seems to me that even 1 or 2 rounds of remaining alive is worth its weight in gold whilst the rest of the party cries "medic." Certainly its got to be a better chance than instant death, right?
To be clear, I don't think I mind the Barb dying of his wounds WHEN HIS RAGE RUNS OUT. It seems to "fit" cinematically and in practical game terms the Barb is more likely to have saved himself a couple of rage points in reserve than avoid ever being KO'ed whilst raging.
Also, I would still make the Barb take his stabilisation rolls and lose another hp if he fails. Eventually he will bleed out or run out of rage points if nothing can be done for him. I just want there to be a chance of doing something for him before he dies, which the RAW don't provide.
Many posters have made a good case for playing the Barb in a different way to the stereotype berserker meat head. In some ways I can see that being a good thing because Barbs would have to think more carefully and be cleverer in their PLAY (if not necessarily in their ROLEPLAY). However, I don't know if that's the way I would want to go, because it might force too much dichotomy between PLAY at the table and ROLEPLAY at the table. On the other hand it could stop lazy players just portraying the stereotype all the time. It would probably have been handy if this counter-intuitive play style for the Barb were drawn attention to in the Core rulebook, as well. (I think its a surprising concept for many players, given the description of the class and its powers and so on).
My issue with the way the current RAW work is as much with the fact that in Rage one is compelled to keep a running tally of your current HP total AND your current total minus your Rage HPs (it's easy enough to know if you will be in negatives or not, but whether or not you will end up below CON Score requires actual subtraction), and that's what I'd most like to 'fix'... Just because if you're already tracking Rage Rounds, it's pretty obvious when to anticipate them running out, but adding an additional 'meta' value on top of that just seems like a pain (yet is what 'smart' Barb players will do, to avoid being ambushed by their own class ability).
Re: the suggestion of a bonus Feat for Die-Hard, in exchange for something else as a Class Variant, that seems like a great idea (though only addressing part of problem with Rage HPs). Die-Hard is mechanically and thematically suited to the Barbarian but giving up 2 of their few Feats can make it less attractive to alot of players. It'll be interesting to see if this shows up the APG... For sure, I think there's alot of interesting possiblities for Barbarian Variants. (UA's Whirling Frenzy Variant just gets rid of the Bonus HPs all together, I'd like to see that in the APG as well)
Re: the suggestion of a bonus Feat for Die-Hard, in exchange for something else as a Class Variant, that seems like a great idea (though only addressing part of problem with Rage HPs). Die-Hard is mechanically and thematically suited to the Barbarian but giving up 2 of their few Feats can make it less attractive to alot of players. It'll be interesting to see if this shows up the APG... For sure, I think there's alot of interesting possiblities for Barbarian Variants. (UA's Whirling Frenzy Variant just gets rid of the Bonus HPs all together, I'd like to see that in the APG as well)
Where are you giving up two feats?
Die-Hard and it's Pre-Req, Endurance...
(giving up as in a feat not available for something else useful)
Considering how horribly underpowered the barbarian is right now, at least till we see the APG, maybe giving them the feats on their levels 3 and 7 might not be a bad idea.
My problems are even worse.
My DM is of the opinion that players should not know their hit points during combat.
I'm playing a Halfling Barbarian with a Con of 14. I figure he'll be dead by 8th level.
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If you feel like being the sacrificial lamb, you can continually push your character into combat and complain about not knowing how many hitpoints you had when you die.
After a few of these, the dm should wake up to the issue. If not, just start putting all your character starting wealth into necklaces of fireball and charging the bad guys with necklace in hand.
Leeerrrrooooyyyyyy!!!! :p
Die-Hard and it's Pre-Req, Endurance...
(giving up as in a feat not available for something else useful)
Ahh... my thought was something along the Monk or Ranger type feat class feature.
You get the feat without needing the pre-reqs.
This is clearly a silly rule by the Pathfinder folks. I think people have great arguments why the current rule is OK save that such arguments mostly fly in the face of role-playing role of a barbarian. Kind of sucks if the big bad barbarian, head strong and fearless, is always retreating from combat after one or two rounds.
I still contend that this would be poor role-playing in the extreme. The barbarian doesn't rage so that he can strategically dish out more damage. He doesn't calculate numbers and decide when to rage and when not to, or when to end it.
He rages because that's how he fights. His rage gives him the might to defeat his enemies and the hardiness to keep going when others have fallen.
If his HP actually reach the point when ending his rage would kill him, then let's face it, he should be dead already (if he hadn't raged, he would be dead, right?). So his rage is giving him the ability to win at any cost - and when his rage ends, he will have to pay that cost.
Barbarians, as most of have grown to know them, are martial in that they can tank an encounter by soaking damage and dealing damage (sort of since they do slightly more damage than a fighter with specialization, sometimes). And I think they are suppose to draw attacks, thus uncanny dodge, later improved uncanny dodge, and even later some sucky DR, which makes me think that they also have an ability to give them more hit points in exchange for AC so they can take the hits. I mean it's not like they get heavy armor to mitigate a power attack or something like that right out of the box.
I disagree.
I do not think they are "tanks" and I do not want them to "draw attacks".
The problem with this mindset is not the survivability of the barbarian, it's the survivability of the whole group. A barbarian with lower AC and higher HP than a typical fighter will, conceivably, take 2x as much damage in every fight. That means he needs 2x as much healing (either during the fight or after it).
This is a drain on the party's healing resources, be they spells, potions, wands, or whatever. They will run out of healing sooner in the dungeon, sooner in the day, and be at greater risk. Or they will camp and rest twice as often to compensate.
No, barbarians are meant to be fast skirmishers, getting quickly into the enemy's weakest spot, killing the mages/clerics/leaders in the bank while the fighters go "tank" the rest of the enemy forces.
And I really don't think it is a valid argument to say that they get a bigger hit die so the rage thing shouldn't matter. On average that larger hit die is only one hit point higher than the other martial classes... so the big hit die argument is really irrelevant on average. I think the big thing they get is +2hp per level. That is what allows them to do their job.
Unfortunately, I agree here, but as I've said, I disagree with your definition of what their job really is. I say it's unfortunate because this mechanic, and all the damage they inevitably take, is bad for the adventuring group as a whole.
As written in Pathfinder, the Barbarian is a cool Prestige Class, sort of relegated to the status of a 3.0/3.5 Paladin. And this is the way it is going to stay until they correct rage.
My opinion.
Yikes. That's a rough opinion.
Me, I like them - for the role I have specified. You might want to give them a try at a non-tank role; you might find them more playable.
I'll back Irichter here.
No offense, Blake, but barbarian, as you described it is what PF has *turned it into* after deciding to ditch the rage point mechanic in favor of 1/rage mechanics. Now, they *skirmish* because they are LITERALLY incapable of using their powers more than say a wizard can cast a prepared spell (which is to say 1/encounter - barring level 17 Tireless Rage ridiculousness). At that, they get no where NEAR the mileage/effect/duration of a spell to boot for the "powers" they are granted.
3.0/3.5 barbarians are a LOT closer to Irichter's defaults, and *most* people that come over from system A to B will expect much the same ... and then find they're quite ineffective overall.
The HP/resource draining of the class played this way, however, is also a carry over from the older version ... so that it's more a party resource drain is something that has been true for a long time already - and PF did NOTHING to change this.
So, Irichter's final thought is more or less accurate: "this is the way it is going to stay until they correct rage."
Honestly, the rage points and the healing boost power would have been very nice to use a few times during a rage - purely to counter this problem. However, at 1/rage, it's *almost* a waste of a power. It's still good to have that option, but as soon as your healed, you as a PC should probably run, but the raging barbarian's not too likely to do this ... so kind of a moot point.
Current rage does little to benefit the character, and much to penalize. Getting to fight when you should be dead already isn't much of a boon - all you have to do is get hit with the right kind of whammy and you're dead (Calm Emotions). Again - NO other class has features that *will* lead to their death.
That's just a fact. Screw "he should be dead already" because THAT is simply not even remotely fun. Rage itself needs a fundamental change to address the shortcomings.
could someone link where it says barbarians can only rage once a day. I looked at the PRD and I just don't get that from the class description of rage.
It doesn't say that.
A first level brbarian with a 14 CON can rage for 6 rounds per day. That can be 1 battle where he rages for 6 rounds, or it could be 6 battles where he rages 1 round each.
Now, depending on how your DM/gaming group handles the concept of "rest for 8 hours", that same first level barbarian could conceivably rage 18 times in a single calendar day (wake up at 6 am, rage six times, rest until 2:30 pm, rage 6 more times, rest until 11 pm, rage 6 more times).