Barbarian rage and negative hp equals guaranteed PC death- have I got this right?


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I am new to the Pathfinder rules so forgive me if I should know this.

Last night in my game, one of the PCs (a barbarian) went to negative hp whilst in a rage. (They are playing Three Faces of Evil, Age of Worms and the grimlock barbarian with 2 daggers and his PC were hacking each other to bits.)

He is now at 5th lvl and according to the PFRPG description of Rage it seems that (unlike "Sage advice" for 3.5) his rage ends on going unconcious. SO, he instantly "loses" 10hp more, taking his minus 6 hp to -16, which was equal to his con score= instant death with no chance to be healed etc.

My problem with this (if I am doing it right) is that it seems to me that once the Barbs get to 10th lvl (and possibly less than that) they are GUARANTEED to die outright if they go to neg hp. Best case scenario, they are at -1hp but then lose a further 20hp meaning they need a SUPER con score to not be instantly killed. And this is assuming a measly -1hp.

Is this correct?

If so, whilst I realise the Barbs could take Endurance/Diehard, I think I am going to have to go back to the 3.5 ruling to allow unconcious raging (which I don't have a problem with as I can see it representing the continued adrenaline rush coursing through their veins).

Any thoughts to help me out?


Sure.

The barbarian does not get any extra hitpoints. He gets the ability at higher levels to continue to fight after he would be long dead without rage. Note that he still dies.

The hit points aren't an increase in total hp. They are bezerker rage that allows someone to fight past death.

Shadow Lodge

You have it pretty much nailed. Half orc is a great choice for barbarian for this reason :)


You *could* also do either of the follow that seem to be popular options:

1) Change the Con bonus thing to "bonus HP" instead of "temporary HP" or whatever they're called. This way, instead of instant loss of the HP, it's just *more* HP's tacked on as like "battle durability" or something.

2) Drop the HP bonus entirely, and instead grant DR according to the con Bonus that *would* have been gained otherwise. Stack this DR onto any existing Barbarian DR as well. Again - a consistent, and guaranteed boon vs. the "stop raging and die" default. Plus, the boon is relatively small in this way. At the top Rage level it's a +4 to existing DR, and at the low end it's a DR of 2.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

And that's why it's important as a DM to let the other players know that.

"You look at Korgath, and you can see that he's still fighting despite wounds that would have dropped another ..."

Translation: If Korgath exits his rage, he's a dead man.

:)


gbonehead wrote:

And that's why it's important as a DM to let the other players know that.

"You look at Korgath, and you can see that he's still fighting despite wounds that would have dropped another ..."

Translation: If Korgath exits his rage, he's a dead man.

:)

+1

Barbarian rage eventually becomes an improved version of the die hard feat. You not only stay active on awake, you are fully capable, where with die hard you can only make 1 action and take damage.

You NEED to let the player and other players that the barbarian should have DIED already.

The common problem here is that people see this ability as a negative rather than a benefit. Yeah you instantly die after you go unconscious, but you should have stopped fighting a while ago, and should have died already. This barbarian hp ABILITY could be capitalized with the die hard feat, so you REALLY keep on going and going and going.

Liberty's Edge

I agree that Diehard feat would go great with this in addition to the rage power renewed vigor . Heaing yourself 1d8 to 5d8+CON MOD may be enough to move you beyond the "dead" zone.


I can agree with these statements, but the more Diehard and Renewed Vigor seem to be "must have" choices for a barbarian, the more they stop being "choices" and just become "obligations". Why give a choice if it, in practice, isn't a choice? Sure, real life may be full of that, but it flies in the face of balanced class design.

I heartily reccommend modifications to rage, such as converting it to a temporary HP effect, or the previously mentioned DR effect (with perhaps a competence bonus on fortitude saves).

An interesting variation I saw once was a DM who basically had damage taken during rage take "effect" at the end of the round. Gave a small window of opportunity to heal the barbarian, and made for some seriously awesome scenes, like a level 2 barbarian getting critted with an arrow, right through the eye into the skull, but he charged and killed the archer anyway, while the cleric scrambled up to him to pull out the arrow and cure him.

Liberty's Edge

gbonehead wrote:

And that's why it's important as a DM to let the other players know that.

"You look at Korgath, and you can see that he's still fighting despite wounds that would have dropped another ..."

Translation: If Korgath exits his rage, he's a dead man.

The best way to look at death rage is this. Death rage is the grand fanally of a great barbarian that cannot be put down, no matter what the enemy does. Medically adrenaline could allow someone to stand well past the point of no return.

Also given that brain death occurs about 20 minutes after the flow of blood stops, a healer should be allowed the option to "rescue" the barbarian, either through an emergency blood transfusion and bandages, or by magical healing which would spontaneously regenerate the lost blood and tissue.

Remember that Pathfinder is more about movie (or novel) style drama than realism. Decisions should always have an artistic flayer to make the game more memorable. And yes, sometimes the hero does die.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

You're running it right.

Not to open a can of worms on purpose, but to open a can of worms....

Yes, the rage hit points are a net benefit. As Captian correctly states the barbarian WOULD HAVE DIED. So at least now they have the possiblity of getting some healing, and not dying.

However, it can be a mixed bag. Sometimes going unconcious is good. Imagine... A tiger pounces you (you're not raging) and knocks you unconcious with a bite attack. The tiger chooses to complete his full attack claw/claw/rend on your adventuring fighter-buddy also standing next to the tiger. So, while you're unconcious you're at least not dead. If your fighter buddy next to you was healthy before he took the claw/claw/rend, and reasonably healthy afterwards, the party is ahead of the game. Outcome: You unconcious, buddy mostly healthy. However, if you're a raging barbarian, the tiger might bite you knocking you down to a hit point total where you would have gone unconcious. But you're not. So, of course, the tiger finishes its claw/claw/rend and knocks you dead. Outcome: You dead, buddy completely unhurt. From my perspective, some/most of the time you unconcious and buddy mostly healthy beats you dead and buddy completely healthy.

Ending a rage is a free action. So it's possible (I'm not sure) that you (as a raging barbarian) could have chosen to end your rage in the middle of the tigers action after the bite, so you would have gone unconcious. Assuming such a thing is even possible though, it begs two questions. If you're going to do that why have the ability at all, since you're just turning it off when it matters. Also, if you're going to do that, can you, as a super-tough barbarian, show your face to your companions in good concious (pun-intended).

I actually prefer the idea that the barbarian rage grants a meaningful fast healing that increases with level, since it's rare for a class ability to include a component with a net upside, but still a meaningful downside (I guess arcane bond is net upside with some downside, so it's not unprecedented). Fast healing is clearly all upside, but also clearly a house rule.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Another option I like to endorse for our Barbarian friends is to dust off a feat from the 'ole 3.0 Savage Species called "Role With It".

I myself believe the feat is not overly powerful and does require fairly decent prerequisites of a 20 CON and Toughness and grants DR 2/- and the feat stacks with itself and any other source of DR/-. If you feel the stacking is an issue, you need only disallow taking the feat more than once or otherwise set a limit on the times it may be taken.

The Exchange

Maybe just have the barbarian buy a scroll of Breath of Life for the cleric (or any caster able to use it) for these instances?

More seriously, though, this issue seems to be a problem with poor choices on the players' part than a defect in the Rage ability. The idea, as others have mentioned, is that a rage lets the barbarian keep fighting long after he might otherwise have dropped from the fight. Once the rage ends, the pain and blood loss catches up to him.

The barbarian player should keep track of how many hitpoints he has left and how many of those will go away when rage ends. It's perfectly reasonable for the player to end rage voluntarily when he gets to a point where losing the con bonus will knock him into the (safe and alive) negatives, at which point he passes out.

Alternatively, by that point he's probably pretty obviously beaten up and on the verge of death, and so other party members might shout at him to be mindful of himself and stay back, or else they might rush to heal him.

There are plenty of in-character solutions to this


I think a rage power that you could get at around 6th level or so that granted you Ferocity would solve this problem. Only usable while raging of course. Would give the barbarian a nice trick the fighter couldn't get as well.


Brutal Ben wrote:

Also given that brain death occurs about 20 minutes after the flow of blood stops, a healer should be allowed the option to "rescue" the barbarian, either through an emergency blood transfusion and bandages, or by magical healing which would spontaneously regenerate the lost blood and tissue.

Yes, but brain damage starts at around 5 minutes. Then again, we are talking about the barbarian class. They are not usually pillars of intellect, so likely no one will notice the brain damage. :P


I am wondering if a feat greater toughness in in order.....

Adding those hps gained through toughness itself to the amount of damage needed to perma kill that PC.

PF srd wrote
Dead

The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score

The feat I am suggesting increases this number by 3; same as hp granted by toughness feat and +1 per level same as HP gained by toughness feat.

Liberty's Edge

Jason Rice wrote:
Yes, but brain damage starts at around 5 minutes. Then again, we are talking about the barbarian class. They are not usually pillars of intellect, so likely no one will notice the brain damage. :P

Your right. 20 minutes is the length of time you have to prevent paralysis if you cut off the flow of blood to the spine.

So ya, a regular healer would have a lot on his hands, but a cleric can just wave his hands and make it all better, and they both have 5 minutes to do it.


I just got the funniest mental image of dual CLW wands in the hands of another party member kneeling over the nearly dead barbarian.

He lowers both wands and yells "Clear"

If it doesn't work, rinse and repeat

"clear!"

I think clear is the perfect command word for wands of CLWs.


This is a benefit to the class I see no need for changes and also think suggested changed would throw off balance.


I think any Barbarian should take a level in Totomist or Feat Shape Soulmeld.
Rage claws extend life before dying (1 essentia in the claws raises life limit to -12). Plus no dying/bleeding from being below 0 and you can act freely (no knocked unconscious).

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I think on one hand, it's a pretty harsh tradeoff for the power Rage gives you.

On the other hand, Barbarians have the best base HD in the game and tend to be high con characters to begin with--a non-raging barb should still have a crapton of HP to get through, that the possibility of dying should usually be pretty small--especially if your party plays well with good teamwork tactics.

I agree it's frustrating when a feat like Diehard seems requisite for the class, but it doesn't have to be. There are a few other choices too... Renewed Vigor and Orc Ferocity as mentioned; there's also Rogue Resiliency. And speaking of being multiclass, if the Barb is multiclass divine spellcaster, he could take Moment of Clarity so he could take a round to heal himself with a spell. While it's true, you do feel like there's SOME ability you have to take to mitigate the effect, there's several options so it doesn't feel as bad as a "Feat tax" might be.

(Now I'm getting crazy ideas for a Barb/Cleric... hmmm....)

If it seems repeatedly problematic however, I might allow the Barb to make a Fortitude save to be alive for one more round, to give a party member time to get to him before he dies.


DeathQuaker wrote:

I think on one hand, it's a pretty harsh tradeoff for the power Rage gives you.

On the other hand, Barbarians have the best base HD in the game and tend to be high con characters to begin with--a non-raging barb should still have a crapton of HP to get through, that the possibility of dying should usually be pretty small--especially if your party plays well with good teamwork tactics.

I agree it's frustrating when a feat like Diehard seems requisite for the class, but it doesn't have to be. There are a few other choices too... Renewed Vigor and Orc Ferocity as mentioned; there's also Rogue Resiliency. And speaking of being multiclass, if the Barb is multiclass divine spellcaster, he could take Moment of Clarity so he could take a round to heal himself with a spell. While it's true, you do feel like there's SOME ability you have to take to mitigate the effect, there's several options so it doesn't feel as bad as a "Feat tax" might be.

(Now I'm getting crazy ideas for a Barb/Cleric... hmmm....)

If it seems repeatedly problematic however, I might allow the Barb to make a Fortitude save to be alive for one more round, to give a party member time to get to him before he dies.

"Clear!"


KenderKin wrote:

I just got the funniest mental image of dual CLW wands in the hands of another party member kneeling over the nearly dead barbarian.

He lowers both wands and yells "Clear"

If it doesn't work, rinse and repeat

"clear!"

I think clear is the perfect command word for wands of CLWs.

ROFL!

Thanks to all posters.

I will have a think about swapping bonus hp for DR.

I notice no one commented on the possibility of using the 3.5 rage which continues (up to its duration of course) even when the Barb is unconcious. I think this might be my preferred option because it will still kill the Barb if his rage expires before he is healed but there is a possibility of saving him.

I appreciate the rage keeps him fighting when he should be dead but in many cases, as someone said above, it is better (both for the PC and the party and the DMs adventure path lol) that the Barb be unconcious and the next PC be wounded than the Barb be insta-killed. In practice I can't see a mighty raging barbarian cravenly withdrawing once he reaches dangerous hit points-and the problem with rage ending on unconciousness is that being knocked over means DEATH. I can see the Barb being killed at least once per AP adventure (if I allow enough raise deads for this to happen) and this will GET WORSE AS HE LEVELS UP which seems strange...

On the other hand, he dishes out too much damage anyway with his pesky 2h wpn, raging, power attack (2d6 + 16 IIRC). I should teach him to ponce around in his poxy light armour, chopping down my monsters- mwa ha ha ha ha


I still use the 3.5 rule that when a rage ends a Barbarian does not lose hit points if it drops him below his level in hit points.


One thing you didn't mention was that it isn't necessary for the Barbarian to drop to negatives/unconscious while Raging to be killed outright (beyond point of healing) by full use of their Class Ability. Once their Bonus Rage HPs equal or exceed their CON score, when they drop Rage voluntarily or after running out of Rage Rounds they are instantly brought to below their CON Score (= dead meat) if they were 'using' more Bonus Rage HPs than their CON score to stay alive (Bonus Rage Hps exceed CON score around level 8-10 usually).

As an alternative, instead of giving the raging barbarian HPs which are then taken away later, you can just give them more 'cushion', setting their 'death point' (normally -CON) to equal the same amount of bonus Rage HPs they would have gained, meaning around level 8 their death point starts to grow bigger than their CON Score (-2x level, and later -3x level). *While in Rage*, they no longer become disabled at 0 hp and dying below that, but function normally until they become disabled at -(Bonus Rage HPs).

The point is that when they drop Rage, the "Rage HP cushion" no longer functions to *keep them conscious*, but THEY STILL BENEFIT from the augmented *death point*, i.e. they become unconscious not dead-meat-beyond-healing. The Barbarian still needs to be healed the entire amount of damage taken before regaining full HPs. Further, they still need to make stabilization checks if they are 'dying', so at high levels where the "Rage Cushion" would get very large, they are taking such huge penalties to Stabilize that they are almost guaranteed to bleed out and die eventually if their negative Hps are signifigant.

This DOES make Die-Hard/ Orc Ferocity more useful for Barbarians, which I don't think is inappropriate for a 2 Feat investment for a class with no bonus feats.


Quandary wrote:

One thing you didn't mention was that it isn't necessary for the Barbarian to drop to negatives/unconscious while Raging to be killed outright (beyond point of healing) by full use of their Class Ability. Once their Bonus Rage HPs equal or exceed their CON score, when they drop Rage voluntarily or after running out of Rage Rounds they are instantly brought to below their CON Score (= dead meat) if they were 'using' more Bonus Rage HPs than their CON score to stay alive (Bonus Rage Hps exceed CON score around level 8-10 usually).

As an alternative, instead of giving the raging barbarian HPs which are then taken away later, you can just give them more 'cushion', setting their 'death point' (normally -CON) to equal the same amount of bonus Rage HPs they would have gained, meaning around level 8 their death point starts to grow bigger than their CON Score (-2x level, and later -3x level). *While in Rage*, they no longer become disabled at 0 hp and dying below that, but function normally until they become disabled at -(Bonus Rage HPs).

The point is that when they drop Rage, the "Rage HP cushion" no longer functions to *keep them conscious*, but THEY STILL BENEFIT from the augmented *death point*, i.e. they become unconscious not dead-meat-beyond-healing. The Barbarian still needs to be healed the entire amount of damage taken before regaining full HPs. Further, they still need to make stabilization checks if they are 'dying', so at high levels where the "Rage Cushion" would get very large, they are taking such huge penalties to Stabilize that they are almost guaranteed to bleed out and die eventually if their negative Hps are signifigant.

This DOES make Die-Hard/ Orc Ferocity more useful for Barbarians, which I don't think is inappropriate for a 2 Feat investment for a class with no bonus feats.

Hmm, I like the sound of this. So, to clarify using the example of play last night. "Amra the Lion" 5th lvl Barb was at -6hp including the rage bonus hp. With your suggestion he would actually be conscious (?) or unconscious (?) and when his rage ended he would go down to -16hp. However, he would not then be instantly dead because his death point is at (con 16 + rage hp 10 =-26 death point)? Which keeps his rounds to bleed out the same as they would have been were he not raging BUT his stabilisation saves are much harder to make due to having taken more damage. Is this what you had in mind?

Or are you saying he doesn't get bonus rage hp and is therefore at -16hp, going unconscious from being reduced below -10hp, and his death point is at -26hp? (And is that actually the same thing barring semantics- I am suddenly thinking it probably is after all...d'oh!)


The Black Bard wrote:
I can agree with these statements, but the more Diehard and Renewed Vigor seem to be "must have" choices for a barbarian, the more they stop being "choices" and just become "obligations".

I played two barbarians to level 21 with out it. It is not a MUST HAVE, it just requires the player to actually be conscious of how many hit points the ACTUALLY have. Playing a barbarian an not having diehard is not a noob job. You can't be reckless.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
You can't be reckless.

And that's what kills this feature. And most of the class abilities.

If you play a Barbarian you can't be reckless... that's just... wrong.


Tim Smith wrote:

Hmm, I like the sound of this. So, to clarify using the example of play last night. "Amra the Lion" 5th lvl Barb was at -6hp including the rage bonus hp. With your suggestion he would actually be conscious (?) or unconscious (?) and when his rage ended he would go down to -16hp. However, he would not then be instantly dead because his death point is at (con 16 + rage hp 10 =-26 death point)? Which keeps his rounds to bleed out the same as they would have been were he not raging BUT his stabilisation saves are much harder to make due to having taken more damage. Is this what you had in mind?

Or are you saying he doesn't get bonus rage hp and is therefore at -16hp, going unconscious from being reduced below -10hp, and his death point is at -26hp? (And is that actually the same thing barring semantics- I am suddenly thinking it probably is after all...d'oh!)

Umm... I may be over-looking something, but just going generally: In the case where under the standard PRPG rules they were dropped to -6 hps Raging (becoming unconscious, dropping rage, then losing the 10 Rage HPs to = -16):

Under my proposed variant, they would not pass out WHILE RAGING until they had less than -10 hps (2x 5level), but (I'm assuming) since their CON is above 10 their death point is still the same. (the "Rage Cushion" isn't added on top of normal death point, and doesn't affect the death point at all until it SURPASSES the CON Score) If they are brought to between 0 and -10 hps while Raging they remain conscious as long as they are Raging but will fall unconscious/dying when they drop it (though other abilities like Die-Hard can kick in). My variant approach keeps them conscious while Raging just as long as the normal rules, the only difference is it just tends not to KILL THEM when Rage is dropped for whatever reason. Whenever they drop Rage and are at negative HPs, they would need to make a Stabilization check or start bleeding out (again, abilities like Die-Hard can kick in here).

The main point is that there is no 'gotcha' surprise when Rage HPs are subtracted later (or damage is re-applied, however you look at it), your HP total is always what it is in the present, and nothing but real damage will reduce it. If your death point is -50 because you're that high level, you will still die when you reach that point. If you choose to realize the extent of your injuries and succumb to them/ drop Rage earlier, at -20 hp, you will be "safely" unconscious at -20 hp. In the normal rules at the level where you have 50 Rage HPs, if you take advantage of 50% of your class ability you are dead meat when you drop Rage. The variant means you are not instantly dead unless you end up using 100% of your class ability, though ending up at -40 hp after your drop Rage means you only have 10 more rounds of failed Stabilization checks before you do reach that 100% mark and die. A little more cushion, and no surprises or needing to track what your HP total will be when you drop Rage.


Xum wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
You can't be reckless.

And that's what kills this feature. And most of the class abilities.

If you play a Barbarian you can't be reckless... that's just... wrong.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN'T BE RECKLESS!?

GRAAAAAAAWAAAWAWAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

*SMASHES LAPTOP INTO EARTH*


Quandary wrote:

Umm... I may be over-looking something, but just going generally: In the case where under the standard PRPG rules they were dropped to -6 hps Raging (becoming unconscious, dropping rage, then losing the 10 Rage HPs to = -16):

Under my proposed variant, they would not pass out WHILE RAGING until they had less than -10 hps (2x 5level), but (I'm assuming) since their CON is above 10 their death point is still the same. (the "Rage Cushion" isn't added on top of normal death point, and doesn't affect the death point at all until it SURPASSES the CON Score) If they are brought to between 0 and -10 hps while Raging they remain conscious as long as they are Raging but will fall unconscious/dying when they drop it (though other abilities like Die-Hard can kick in). My variant approach keeps them conscious while Raging just as long as the normal rules, the only difference is it just tends not to KILL THEM when Rage is dropped for whatever reason. Whenever they drop Rage and are at negative HPs, they would need to make a Stabilization check or start bleeding out (again, abilities like Die-Hard can kick in here).

The main point is that...

Ah, I think I understand you now.

So, in my example with your variant, Amra's death point is still -16 (due to his Con score of 16 being more than his bonus rage "hp" of 10). At the start of the round, he had -1hp (instead of having 9hp including the rage bonus hp as per RAW) but was still conscious and fully active due to having >-10hp. When his enemy inflicted 15 hp dmg on him during the round, he went unconscious because he went below -10 (his bonus rage hp). Unfortunately for Amra, this also brings him to his death point of -16hp so he dies. IF the enemy had brought him to, say, -12hp he would have been unconscious and dying, but not dead.

If Amra were 9th lvl, with 18 bonus rage hp, he would have a better death point of -18 rather than -16 and would be able to continue fighting all the way up to his death point.

Hmm. Not sure. It is more obvious what state he will be in should his rage end BUT if I understand you correctly, there will still be the insta-kill at mid/high lvls if he is knocked over, just as before? So the only advantage really is that the player has more visibility as to what is happening and can hopefully react by, say, keeling over (game terms= ending rage) before the point of no return. Not saying this is an insignificant advantage but it would still require a change in tactics from the player (as opposed to the character).

The merits of this idea vs allowing rage whilst unconscious might depend on whether I want the Barb to have to take more care or not, I suppose. (Generally I suspect that allowing unconscious rage would increase survivability more consistently)


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I'm the only one who likes fast healing?

It's an ability good enough that anyone would be glad to get it, it has no downside, it's simple to use, and no other class gets it (making the bbn more unique).

Fast healing = 1/2 barbarian level rounded down while raging sounds good to me. And do away with the con bonus.


drsparnum wrote:

I'm the only one who likes fast healing?

It's an ability good enough that anyone would be glad to get it, it has no downside, it's simple to use, and no other class gets it (making the bbn more unique).

Fast healing = 1/2 barbarian level rounded down while raging sounds good to me. And do away with the con bonus.

That's not a half-bad idea either.

*thumbs up*


drsparnum wrote:

I'm the only one who likes fast healing?

It's an ability good enough that anyone would be glad to get it, it has no downside, it's simple to use, and no other class gets it (making the bbn more unique).

Fast healing = 1/2 barbarian level rounded down while raging sounds good to me. And do away with the con bonus.

To me it doesn't make sense. I prefer the DR idea to fast healing.


Tim Smith wrote:
I notice no one commented on the possibility of using the 3.5 rage which continues (up to its duration of course) even when the Barb is unconcious. I think this might be my preferred option because it will still kill the Barb if his rage expires before he is healed but there is a possibility of saving him.

All right, I'll mention it then.

1. I've always thought that "raging while unconscious" was one of the silliest, maybe even stupidest (I know, not a word), ideas in 3.x. Raging is a state of mind that affects how conscious decisions are made, and unconscious is the opposite of that. The two concepts are mutually exclusive. And it's not like Rage is a magical effect that lingers after it ends. Raging while unconscsious is as silly as playing Mozart while unconscious.

2. In 3.5 Rage had a duration. You got to use it a few times each day, and each time you used it, you raged for a number of rounds until the duration ended. In that case, it's easy to say "continues (up to its duration of course)". However, Pathfinder changed that. Now Rage does not have a duration at all. When you Rage, it lasts exactly 1 round. Next round you decide whether to continue it or not continue it. If you continue it, it lasts exactly one more round. Since there is no duration, it would be pointless to insert the 3.5 rule without also modifying the core mechanic of how rage works.

All that aside, as for me, I don't think there is anything wrong with Rage.

Raging barbarians are hard to kill. They have an extraordinary number of HP for their level and can take tons of damage. Worse, they fly into a rage and dish out devastating damage to their enemies with little or no regard for their own safety. This should be very reckless, very dangerous, and potentially suicidal.

There should be consequence..


drsparnum wrote:

I'm the only one who likes fast healing?

It's an ability good enough that anyone would be glad to get it, it has no downside, it's simple to use, and no other class gets it (making the bbn more unique).

Fast healing = 1/2 barbarian level rounded down while raging sounds good to me. And do away with the con bonus.

Sorry, but that has to be one of the worst ideas I have heard.

Barbarian finishes a fight and is injured.... Hey I think I will get mad at nothing to heal myself back to full, GRRRRRR!


DM_Blake wrote:

There should be consequence..

...That do not scale proportionately with level?

(dropping Rage at 0 hp is just dandy at 5th level, while lethal at 15th level)


Quandary wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:

There should be consequence..

...That do not scale proportionately with level?

(dropping Rage at 0 hp is just dandy at 5th level, while lethal at 15th level)

But its only 10 bonus HP at 5th level, while 30 at 15th. You would be just fine if you drop rage while at 20, at least as fine as the 5th lvl guy.


DM_Blake wrote:


1. I've always thought that "raging while unconscious" was one of the silliest, maybe even stupidest (I know, not a word), ideas in 3.x. Raging is a state of mind that affects how conscious decisions are made, and unconscious is the opposite of that. The two concepts are mutually exclusive. And it's not like Rage is a magical effect that lingers after it ends. Raging while unconscsious is as silly as playing Mozart while unconscious.

2. In 3.5 Rage had a duration. You got to use it a few times each day, and each time you used it, you raged for a number of rounds until the duration ended. In that case, it's easy to say "continues (up to its duration of course)". However, Pathfinder changed that. Now Rage does not have a duration at all. When you Rage, it lasts exactly 1 round. Next round you decide whether to continue it or not continue it. If you continue it, it lasts exactly one more round. Since there is no duration, it would be pointless to insert the 3.5 rule without also modifying the core mechanic of how rage works.

All that aside, as for me, I don't think there is anything wrong with Rage.

Raging barbarians are hard to kill. They have an extraordinary number of HP for their level and can take tons of damage. Worse, they fly into a rage and dish out devastating damage to their enemies with little or no regard for their own safety. This should be very reckless, very dangerous, and potentially suicidal.

There should be consequence..

Well, I could see rage whilst unconscious being adrenaline still pumping and there IS a duration in pathfinder (although since that duration can be taken in bigger chunks than in 3.5 it might be a problem I guess)

Do you not think that playing a reckless barb (and is there any other kind? lol) is tantamount to a death sentence? Monsters are going to hit you and because you don't fall over they will keep on hitting you until you do-with no respite whilst lying unconscious on the floor. Once you DO fall over, that's it- game over (literally- for the rest of the game session lol). The only way I can see around it is to PLAY tactically, but ROLEPLAY that you ended rage to go unconscious at a survivable point because you keeled over from wounds.

I liked the DR idea some people have suggested but don't know if that's too powerful in aggregate...


I am in the camp of temporary HP, DR, etc. to represent the barbarian on an adrenaline rage. You get so much HP or DR per round to help shake of the minor stuff, or last a little bit longer overall, but if you get hit for big damage you are still going down.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

1. I'm conceptually fine with raging while unconcious. Stranger things happen all the time in D&D. If you really need a rationale, the half-life of epinephrine/adrenaline is about 2 minutes. So that's still in the system...and I think unconcious does not imply that the character's heart stopped. Not that I think science should dictate game rules.

2. I agree that the barbarian would just "stay mad" as his wounds miraculously knit, if you allow raging fast healing. I guess I'm okay with that but I could see how others would not be. I guess I'm coming from the place where the barbarian could probably be a bit tougher relative to the fighter (and I don't want to get into that). If you figure a L20 barbarian has a 22 CON, with renewed vigor the barbarian can heal 5d8+6 hitpoints, 1/day, as a standard action. Fast healing is clearly better than that power overall, and it doesn't even take a rage power. Maybe it is too much. Maybe fast healing up to the barbarian's damage reduction. It would peak at 5 then, unless (possibly) someone took the power increase DR. Just thinking out loud here.


An easy compromise would be to make rage, like bardic music, something that has to be sustained as a free action on the barbarian's turn. So if the barbarian is knocked unconscious, he's still raging until his count comes up -- giving his friends a little bit of time to heal him.


The Major barbarian problem today, is that they changed places with the fighter. The barbarian today HAS to be tactical in EVERYTHING he does, while the fighter can just go there and dish out insane amounts of damage. I'm sorry, that doesn't sit well with me in an RP maner.

I just restarted an old game and I play a Barbarian, I am SURE I'll die in 3 sessions. Just because of the change of that very system, and because barbarians became subpar.

I have no problem dying from roleplay, it happens all the time, but once there is a mechanic that makes you die because you are a good roleplayer, that's bad. A Barbarian like mine WON'T drop out of rage just to fall unconscious, and most barbarians I've seem so far won't do that either. So, yeah, if you don't play Krug "The careful barbarian" you will die, or be ineffective in combat... or both!


Quandary wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:

There should be consequence..

...That do not scale proportionately with level?

(dropping Rage at 0 hp is just dandy at 5th level, while lethal at 15th level)

Yes, because your 5th level barbarian probably had something like 45 HP and he took 55 damage. He should have been Staggered 10 HP ago and Disabled 9 HP ago.

(assuming average HP and 16 CON)

On the other hand, that 15th level barbarian probably has something like 165 HP and he took 195 damage. He should have been Staggered 30 HP ago and Disabled 29 HP ago and DEAD 10 HP ago.

(assuming average HP and 20 CON)

As I see it, that ability does scale positively with level.. Our 5th level guy did not get to fight beyond the point at which he should be dead. Not even close. Yet our 15th level guy gets to keep swinging with enough wounds that he should be dead. That scales quite nicely.


drsparnum wrote:
1. I'm conceptually fine with raging while unconcious. Stranger things happen all the time in D&D. If you really need a rationale, the half-life of epinephrine/adrenaline is about 2 minutes. So that's still in the system...and I think unconcious does not imply that the character's heart stopped. Not that I think science should dictate game rules.

See, if I said that to my players, the first thing they would say is "Great! That means I can rage for 1 round and stop using my daily rage allotment and the adrenaline in my system will keep me raging and keep my bonuses for 20 more rounds!"

Goose/gander.

If Rage ends immediately when a conscious barbarian stops raging, then there is no reason to have Rage keep going for two whole minutes when he's unconscious - other than to make a silly concept to fix a perceived mechanical problem (I'n not picking on you specifically, I'm picking on D&D in general).


Xum wrote:

The Major barbarian problem today, is that they changed places with the fighter. The barbarian today HAS to be tactical in EVERYTHING he does, while the fighter can just go there and dish out insane amounts of damage. I'm sorry, that doesn't sit well with me in an RP maner.

I just restarted an old game and I play a Barbarian, I am SURE I'll die in 3 sessions. Just because of the change of that very system, and because barbarians became subpar.

I have no problem dying from roleplay, it happens all the time, but once there is a mechanic that makes you die because you are a good roleplayer, that's bad. A Barbarian like mine WON'T drop out of rage just to fall unconscious, and most barbarians I've seem so far won't do that either. So, yeah, if you don't play Krug "The careful barbarian" you will die, or be ineffective in combat... or both!

Everything you say is true. I especially agree that a careful barbarian is weird at best, and certainly improbabl and out-of-character (at least when it comes to raging in combat - I see them being plenty careful when scouting an enemy camp or searching a monster's lair, etc.).

However, for me, I just see it as part of the risk.

A barbarian expects to fly into a rage and destroy his enemies, then calm down and go back home to his ale and wenches. He definitely does not expect to get carved into little pieces and yet still keep fighting beyond wounds that should have killed him. If anyone is roleplaying a barbarian with that expectation, I would not call that good roleplaying.

"Hey, Fafhrd, I think you should fly into a rage. That monter has big sharp teeth and it's going to chew you to bits. The only way you'll survive is if you're foaming at the mouth raging."
"Awww, I dunno, Mouser. It always makes me so tired. Think we can take it with just normal fighting?"
"No way, Fafhred. You better work yourself up into a tizzy. You'll need the extra durability."
"Well, gee, OK Mouser. If you say so. I would hate to get chewed to death before I'm done fighting, so, yeah, I'll rage now so I can keep fighting after I've been chewed to death."

No, that's not roleplaying.

A barbarian should get mad. He should view every (worthy) enemy as an obstacle standing in his way, defying him, challenging him, even insulting him by daring to get in his way. This makes him angry. Damn the consequences, he's going to hack that enemy to bits no matter what it takes.

Most of the time, he will destroy that enemy without taking lethal wounds, and life goes on.

But sometime an enemy may prove too tough for our barbarian and he may sustain wounds that should kill him. The good news is, he'll be too pissed off to know it, so he'll keep on raging and keep on fighting when he should be dead alraedy.

Then at some point, the barbarian will either win, or be dropped. If he wins, he will still die (heck, he should have been dead already, right?). But at least he got the win so those lovely Valkyries can take him off to Valhalla. If he is dropped, he'll surely die (but he should have been dead already, and even all that rage wasn't enough to win this fight, so he was going to die from the moment the battle began anyway).

**************************************************

In the end, I don't see this mechanic making you die because you are a good roleplayer. If you have X HP and take on a monster without raging, and take X+CON damage, you die. Period. Before the fight ends. But if you take on that same monster while raging and take X+CON damage, you live, at least long enough to finish the fight, AND you do lots more damage during the fight, so you're really less likely to take so much damage because you should* win sooner when you're raging.

No matter how you slice it, you come out ahead.

* YMMV


Interesting point Blake, as always. What I say is, THAT'S the way it should happen, but because of the mechanic, it doesn't. Cause most players won't die for RP, but you are right, that's their problem, not mine, it just pisses me off.

Now, the rest of the barbarian so called "powers" expect you to fight clever, and there is little to no way that you can be effective an NOT clever with a barbarian, hell, if you play clever you are still lagging behind the other melee classes, imagine if you don't do it right. And that, also pisses me off.


Xum wrote:

... not mine, it just pisses me off.

... And that, also pisses me off.

Uh, oh, I sense a Rage coming on!

Aside from that, you're right. I don't think barbarians have lost anything. In fact, they've gained those rage powers. But I do believe most of the other melee classes gained a lot more than barbarians did.

And it also irritates (but not quite enrages) me that playing a barbarian is a factor of clever building and accounting for every power and round of rage.

Where I draw a distinction, at least for me, is that the amount of cleverness required here is on the player, not on the barbarian.

I can live with that. I don't mind being a clever player. In fact, I rather enjoy that For me, that's what makes it a game instead of just an endless repetition of CR and XP and dice rolling on the table. And I don't mind that the player's cleverness is required for any class, since the two are separate. So having to be clever to play a barbarian is no better or worse than having to be clever to play a wizard or a rogue.

So, at least for me, I sit at the table and I make clever tactical choices for my barbarian, but in game, Fafhrd is just raging and hacking and cleaving and bleeding - pretty much on foaming-at-the-mouth autopilot.


In 3.5 I always added the extra points "on the bottom". By that I mean, let's say that a 5th level barbarian got 10 extra hit points. What this meant to me was:
at 0 they were still fine
at -10 they were disabled
at -20 they were dead
If they ended their rage while at -15, then they dropped dead, but they already knew they were a deadman walking anyway because they were at -15.

So in PF, if you have you an 18 Con barbarian.
at 5th level:
at 0 they are fine
at -10 they are disabled
from -11 to -17 they are dying
at -18 they are dead

at 10th level:
at 0 they are fine
at -20 they are disabled
at -21 they are dead


Xum wrote:

The Major barbarian problem today, is that they changed places with the fighter. The barbarian today HAS to be tactical in EVERYTHING he does, while the fighter can just go there and dish out insane amounts of damage. I'm sorry, that doesn't sit well with me in an RP maner.

I just restarted an old game and I play a Barbarian, I am SURE I'll die in 3 sessions. Just because of the change of that very system, and because barbarians became subpar.

I have no problem dying from roleplay, it happens all the time, but once there is a mechanic that makes you die because you are a good roleplayer, that's bad. A Barbarian like mine WON'T drop out of rage just to fall unconscious, and most barbarians I've seem so far won't do that either. So, yeah, if you don't play Krug "The careful barbarian" you will die, or be ineffective in combat... or both!

Well then maybe you should call out for healing or carry some potions. It is built fairly. You are gaining a benefit in temporary health.


You know, I'm reading everyone's post and it seems that everyone is forgetting that your barbarian can get healed.

I mean of course if you go up against an oober tough baddie, your character probably will die, however this a group game. Count on a healer.

I like the barbarian the way it is. I ran through some builds, and it takes thinking, but some of the abilities are really cool.

I mean, you can do some really cool stuff, like with strength surge, you can overrun practically anything (if you have the feats). A level 6 barb, with improved overrun + strength surge can have a CMB of +23.

Str 24 (w/ rage and +2 str gloves) +7 BAB+6, Strength surge+6 greater overrun +4.

I mean that is pretty cool. Yea you can only do it once, but that can be a fight ender by knocking the oober baddie down prone And get a flank.

About the RP issue. If you Role-play a dumb barbarian that rages, doesn't back down, and fights on no matter what. Then of course your character is going to die at some point. That's good Rping, maybe not the best character concept.

I like the rage powers that gives you many limited options in combat. Should I use surprise accuracy, powerful blow, or strength surge or not? Should I enter guarded stance, or leap over the enemy fighters to land next the caster? (I mean with raging leaper, a barbarian can leap anywhere really, especially at higher levels)

Plus barbarians have a whole lot of hit points. Either way, sometimes the dice do not work in your favor and you get mutiple crits. In all cases, the situations that everyone has talked about, with regards to barbs dying horribly, happens to all classes equally.

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