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Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

it's only a standard action so use it as an opener and then either use a move action to get into melee range or just take a standard action to attack or Cleave if you have it.

You can't take another standard action after performing a standard action. Move + standard is OK, but not standard + standard....


The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Most post colonial nations (Australia, Canada, Mexico, NewZeland, South Africa, US) are founded on pillage, land theft, dispossession of the original inhabitants and murder.

Surely even pre-colonial nations are much the same? In my country (the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) there were the guys with the swords and the big horse and the armour who basically enslaved everyone else. The descendants of the last group of bullies to win the scrap, in 1066 with the Norman conquest, still own most of the land in this country (although a lot of them couldn't afford the upkeep without cheap labour after the 1st world war and ended up losing it, perhaps to the National Trust). This got worse with the enclosures of previously common land and the wholesale evictions of people from the land, often to the workhouses where they would be split from their families amongst other bad things. We might moan about things today, but we don't know we are born- imagine even 100 years ago, let alone 200 to see how much better things are now.

You will also note that it is the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" only because some of these descendants did some forcible "uniting" of their own!


In pathfinder its not specifically called out as far as I can see.

However, in 3.5 its very clearly spelled out in the PHB on page 84. There is a table with tumble DCs for avoiding AoOs and each section tells you the consequence for failure. In the case of failing to tumble past enemies you provoke AoO and if trying to tumble THROUGH enemies you provoke AND you stop moving in the last square before you failed the check.

I can't see why this should be any different in pathfinder, but YMMV.


I'd like to cancel my pathfinder AP after the Kingmaker AP. I see that it's scheduled now for my next shipment to include the Serpent Skull in that. I'd like that one removed. Please still send the last Kingmaker volume, though.

Thanks!


If you think about it, traditionally the King is dominant over the Queen (due to institutional and non politically correct sexism). If our Queen were to marry someone who then became king, he would be taking over. Since we don't want a foreigner dominating our Queen, he has to be given the lesser title to make it clear he is the junior partner, so to speak.

Hence Prince Albert was the consort of Queen Victoria and Prince Phillip is consort to Elizabeth II.


Alexander & Tanis, thanks for the input- it looks like the info I needed was under the Greater Disarm feat, and as you say its probably that feat that I am after. Unfortunately my dark elves don't have a high enough BAB!

I suppose that allowing the kick away after the disarm might remove the incentive for greater disarm (although on the other hand it would require a move action, unlike greater disarm, which is important if you have the initiative).

I take the point about the monk being good at disarm, but I am looking at the swashbuckling type of disarm- it really looks like this is only viable if you get greater disarm (unless I allow the kick away). On the other hand, if we look at higher levels (as roguerogue mentions), the villain can disarm with one attack whilst attacking normally with his other attacks, so this might be more useful then?

I think I will allow the kick away if the bad guys have a move action spare and otherwise I will count the PC as prone for the AoO if he picks his weapon back up. Denying any iterative attacks and getting the AoO against a reduced AC makes it feel like it would be something worth the cost.


I am looking at some dark elves I will be DMing soon who have the improved disarm feat. This seems cool thematically but on examining the disarm rules I am having trouble seeing the point of disarm.

As far as I can see the victim of a successful disarm merely spends a move action to pick up his weapon and then can attack with it as normal. Sure he provokes an AoO but the disarmer had to give up a proper attack in place of the disarm anyway, and this assumes that the disarm is successful. So, the worst that happens is denying iterative attacks but at the cost of 2 feats and having to beat the cmd. I can't see the point, unless:-

1)Could the dark elves kick the weapon away as a move action once they have disarmed? Thus forcing a move (provoking AoO) followed by another move action, denying attacks on the round the victim is successfully disarmed (if they pick the weapon up).

2)Pathfinder doesn't seem to state where the disarmed weapon end up- could it end up in the disarmer's space?

Thoughts gratefully received, including other ideas about how to use disarm viably.


anorex wrote:

Here is the answer:

James Jacobs wrote:
A wand of spiritual weapon should use the wand-user's base attack bonus plus Wisdom modifier to resolve attacks, since it's the wand wielder and not the creator that's making the attacks. The bonus to damage, though, is set by the wand's caster level.

Link.

OK, so the power to summon the weapon comes from the creator (translates as duration/ability to overcome SR/damage) but since the user directs the weapon it uses his bab & wisdom. Alright, I can see that. Still slightly surprised that this seems to scale with user level more than some other items (eg fireball wand) but for the reasons I stated initially I guess its not as powerful as it looks, due to short duration, fairly minor damage (although every little helps, right?) and the need to fiddle around swapping wand for weapon and actually taking the time to trigger it as well, particularly when this combines with the short duration.

Looks like the best wands/scrolls to create should not allow saves and should use the USER's attack bonus (perhaps scorching ray for example).

Thanks for the link!


Polevoi wrote:
Tim Smith wrote:
So, in your group's successful battle, I presume he was effectively a nasty sorceror chucking fireballs and lightning around whilst his octopins provided a distraction?

I wish

The way it ended up playing out in my campaign went like this:

** spoiler omitted **...

So, if you had remembered levitate, do you think they would still have triumphed? (Still worried about fly... I suppose I could maybe work in advance info about this alongside the mind blast defence...)


Morgen wrote:
For something like a wand or scroll I'd use the creators. If it was a staff then it'd be the users.

So when the entry for spiritual weapon talks about "your" bab and "your" wisdom bonus, you are reading it as referring to the CREATOR rather than the USER? (My confusion arises because it doesn't seem clear that this is analagous to the caster-level-dependent effects such as its duration and damage bonus, where caster level is clearly referenced).


Morgen wrote:
Traditionally when you come across something in a bound item like that which tends to assume you use the lowest possible value it could have to exist. So a wand of spiritual weapon just randomly found would assume a caster level of 3 made by a cleric with a wisdom of 12.

Indeed, but are you arguing it should therefore attack with the CREATOR'S stats (ie bab+2, wis +1) for an attack bonus of +3?

Or would you go with the USER'S attack stats, which will be significantly better as they level up in future?


If you have a fireball scroll at 5th caster level it does 5d6 damage and has a save DC of 14 (10+3 for spell lvl+ 1 for attribute bonus of int 13 being the minimum stat to cast fireball). So far so good (unless you want to tell me I am wrong?)

However, if I have a wand of spiritual weapon, how do I adjudicate it? Its duration will be 3 rounds (CL3) and its damage will be d8+1 (1 per 3 caster levels). HOWEVER, its attack bonus is determined by adding "your" base attack bonus to "your" wisdom bonus. Does this mean the creator's or the user's?

I am inclined to think that by RAW it means the user's (because it doesn't say the CASTER's bab & wisdom, unless that's just the text assuming the caster is doing it himself) but that makes me uneasy as it would seem to be significantly better for a high level user compared to the aforementioned fireball scroll which is no better for a high level user than a low level one.

Perhaps I am wrong to feel uneasy as d8+1 damage may not seem a significant benefit at higher level, particularly as it costs an action to use it. But on the other hand, if the party paladin/cleric is using the wand then that's a couple of extra freebie attacks per round which ignore DR & incorporeality at a quite respectable attack bonus.

I would greatly appreciate your views on the correct way to adjudicate the attack bonus and whether allowing the user of the item to utilise his own bonuses is too powerful/not in the spirit of how wands & scrolls are supposed to work.


Polevoi wrote:

If you run the adventure as written, and have Z show up as they're leaving the dopple hideout, mind blast your PCs, then leave and let the drow finish them off, then the PCs will know how deadly the mind blast can be. If they dont show any indication of researching mind flayers and trying to discover a way to defend themselves from mind blast you can try to give them hints to do some research that leads them to discover that spell immunity can be used for spell-like abilities as well as spells. If they use that to prepare for their show down with Zyrxog it should help significantly with the deadliness.

When my group faced him it turned into a TPK. The second time around with a new group they had scrolls of spell immunity and it was still tough but they survived.

I didn't realise there was a counter to mind blast! But you are correct, of course, as its a spell like rather than supernatural ability. And you make a good point about a little advance warning from the ambush at the end of the dopple hideout. I will reconsider this in the light of what you said, since a bit (or a lot) of DM nudging towards a spell immunity defence could well make all the difference. Without this I just think Z is an absolute killer and although that would be fine for a one-off adventure, I don't want a TPK at this point in the Adventure Path. This just shows how useful these boards are so we can learn from others' experiences!

So, in your group's successful battle, I presume he was effectively a nasty sorceror chucking fireballs and lightning around whilst his octopins provided a distraction?


wraithstrike wrote:
Tim Smith wrote:
stuff about the fight

Are you playing using pathfinder rules or 3.5 rules. If he is converted to pathfinder he is more than a match in melee with the right feats. This is a tough fight, but a mindflayer without class levels is not a boss fight. I guess the next question is do you want this to be a boss-type fight or just another fight. The skill of your players will also be a factor.

Fly can be counterspelled, but I don't think Z would waste time with a counterspell. He would probably just cast dispel magic if a party member became an issue.

I want him to be a challenge but probably not a real bad boss fight (as the next adventure is really the big bad of the Free City section of the path). However, as written he looks a real party killer especially if they don't have fly.

I am playing pathfinder but not usually doing much to the adventure as written since everyone says its a PC killer in 3.5(although suggestions for Z gratefully received!)


Is there a way to counter "fly" if you know in advance that your opponent has it? The villain has access to inside information on the party's strengths and weaknesses and an unhallow effect.

I am running Hall of Harsh Reflections and have been looking at the finale against Zyrxog. This guy will be levitating and is a real badass. He is so much of a badass that I was seriously thinking of nerfing him down to standard stats for his race without class levels.

However, one thing that strikes me as being really "swingy" is whether the party have access to flight or not. This chap is no good in a toe to toe fight with a flying fighter UNLESS he keeps his character levels to give him a chance. BUT if the party sorceror doesn't take "fly" then with his original stats he looks like he will slaughter the party with multiple high-DC mindblasts (and he might do so even against a flying fighter).

This is really a sort of side-trek adventure so I don't want this to be a likely TPK. I could have both stat blocks and just insert the easier one if they don't take fly, but then I run the risk of buff Zyrxog still murdering them even if they fly...

So, I was wondering whether to use the weaker Zyrxog stats so he doesn't instantly walk all over them, whilst countering the party's fly spell (if they have one) to make it more than a simple case of sending the flying fighter up to chop him down in 2 rounds. However, this depends on it being possible to counter "fly" in some way...


I would also like to know if the spell really means it only affects "foes" or is this a misprint and really means "creatures"?


Hi there.

I notice that you have added something called "sales tax" on order #1443183 which is the next shipment in the adventure path.

Since this is shipping to a UK address and we are not (yet!) part of your country, this would seem to be an error. (This didn't get added previously either, by the way).

No taxation without representation and all that, guys.... ;-))


Erik Freund wrote:


A slight redefinition of magic. If an area is suffering from the plague, why is that? Sure, we might say "lack of proper sanitation" but the commoners would say they've been cursed by [god/demon/thingy]. Why not let that be true? All attempts at curing the disease require a caster level check, DC [high]. This mechanic works great for the various outer planes, so why not ours?

Ditto for the desert: why is it a desert? Because it suppresses water and cold. That's WHY it's a desert. (Don't give me any lip about climate patterns!) The same explanation for why it doesn't rain is the EXACT same reason as to why you can't cast Create Water.

Pure genius! Taking the "its a magical world so things would be different" argument to its logical (and neat) conclusion.... Love it!


DM_Blake wrote:


Yes, I thought of that too. But a barbarian doesn't have that many rage points. Making them tick off their rage points when they're unconscious is like making a bard tick of his music while he's unconscious (humming in his sleep?) or making a sorcerer cast his limited number of spells while unconscious (casting in his sleep?)

I would count it dreadfully unfair to a class to KO them on round 3 of an 8 round battle, have them healed at the end of the fight, and then tell the player "Well, while you were unconscious, you used up all (most) of your remaining uses of your primary quintessential class ability. Too bad."

That's unneccissarily punitive to only one class - why is the barbarian's problem (if there is one) so eggregious that we must fix it by potentially robbing him of his main class ability?

But hang on a minute- allowing them to rage on when unconscious is keeping them ALIVE!!! (Also, they aren't obliged to continue raging if they don't mind being dead lol).

I certainly take your point that he would be depleting his future rage ability, but surely its better to be weakened until the next rest than DEAD?

I must admit that the point you make about not having that many rage points has occurred to me and I am not sure how much it would keep them alive in practice, but it seems to me that even 1 or 2 rounds of remaining alive is worth its weight in gold whilst the rest of the party cries "medic." Certainly its got to be a better chance than instant death, right?

To be clear, I don't think I mind the Barb dying of his wounds WHEN HIS RAGE RUNS OUT. It seems to "fit" cinematically and in practical game terms the Barb is more likely to have saved himself a couple of rage points in reserve than avoid ever being KO'ed whilst raging.

Also, I would still make the Barb take his stabilisation rolls and lose another hp if he fails. Eventually he will bleed out or run out of rage points if nothing can be done for him. I just want there to be a chance of doing something for him before he dies, which the RAW don't provide.

Many posters have made a good case for playing the Barb in a different way to the stereotype berserker meat head. In some ways I can see that being a good thing because Barbs would have to think more carefully and be cleverer in their PLAY (if not necessarily in their ROLEPLAY). However, I don't know if that's the way I would want to go, because it might force too much dichotomy between PLAY at the table and ROLEPLAY at the table. On the other hand it could stop lazy players just portraying the stereotype all the time. It would probably have been handy if this counter-intuitive play style for the Barb were drawn attention to in the Core rulebook, as well. (I think its a surprising concept for many players, given the description of the class and its powers and so on).


DM_Blake wrote:


See, if I said that to my players, the first thing they would say is "Great! That means I can rage for 1 round and stop using my daily rage allotment and the adrenaline in my system will keep me raging and keep my bonuses for 20 more rounds!"

Goose/gander.

If Rage ends immediately when a conscious barbarian stops raging, then there is no reason to have Rage keep going for two whole minutes when he's unconscious - other than to make a silly concept to fix a perceived mechanical problem (I'n not picking on you specifically, I'm picking on D&D in general).

That sounds like a very good point and I was almost at the point of thinking it destroyed the idea of unconscious rage completely.

HOWEVER, rage is not really a decision of the Character, its a decision of the Player. Rage points are simply used to ration the use of the power in game terms. In a roleplay sense, the adrenaline is still there "because it is", not because the Barb has rage points left. The suggestion made by the previous poster that there is a real world justification for this whilst being unconscious doesn't imply you need to give free rage rounds- the adrenaline is only there as long as you have rage points and spend them, otherwise its run its course.


DM_Blake wrote:


1. I've always thought that "raging while unconscious" was one of the silliest, maybe even stupidest (I know, not a word), ideas in 3.x. Raging is a state of mind that affects how conscious decisions are made, and unconscious is the opposite of that. The two concepts are mutually exclusive. And it's not like Rage is a magical effect that lingers after it ends. Raging while unconscsious is as silly as playing Mozart while unconscious.

2. In 3.5 Rage had a duration. You got to use it a few times each day, and each time you used it, you raged for a number of rounds until the duration ended. In that case, it's easy to say "continues (up to its duration of course)". However, Pathfinder changed that. Now Rage does not have a duration at all. When you Rage, it lasts exactly 1 round. Next round you decide whether to continue it or not continue it. If you continue it, it lasts exactly one more round. Since there is no duration, it would be pointless to insert the 3.5 rule without also modifying the core mechanic of how rage works.

All that aside, as for me, I don't think there is anything wrong with Rage.

Raging barbarians are hard to kill. They have an extraordinary number of HP for their level and can take tons of damage. Worse, they fly into a rage and dish out devastating damage to their enemies with little or no regard for their own safety. This should be very reckless, very dangerous, and potentially suicidal.

There should be consequence..

Well, I could see rage whilst unconscious being adrenaline still pumping and there IS a duration in pathfinder (although since that duration can be taken in bigger chunks than in 3.5 it might be a problem I guess)

Do you not think that playing a reckless barb (and is there any other kind? lol) is tantamount to a death sentence? Monsters are going to hit you and because you don't fall over they will keep on hitting you until you do-with no respite whilst lying unconscious on the floor. Once you DO fall over, that's it- game over (literally- for the rest of the game session lol). The only way I can see around it is to PLAY tactically, but ROLEPLAY that you ended rage to go unconscious at a survivable point because you keeled over from wounds.

I liked the DR idea some people have suggested but don't know if that's too powerful in aggregate...


Quandary wrote:

Umm... I may be over-looking something, but just going generally: In the case where under the standard PRPG rules they were dropped to -6 hps Raging (becoming unconscious, dropping rage, then losing the 10 Rage HPs to = -16):

Under my proposed variant, they would not pass out WHILE RAGING until they had less than -10 hps (2x 5level), but (I'm assuming) since their CON is above 10 their death point is still the same. (the "Rage Cushion" isn't added on top of normal death point, and doesn't affect the death point at all until it SURPASSES the CON Score) If they are brought to between 0 and -10 hps while Raging they remain conscious as long as they are Raging but will fall unconscious/dying when they drop it (though other abilities like Die-Hard can kick in). My variant approach keeps them conscious while Raging just as long as the normal rules, the only difference is it just tends not to KILL THEM when Rage is dropped for whatever reason. Whenever they drop Rage and are at negative HPs, they would need to make a Stabilization check or start bleeding out (again, abilities like Die-Hard can kick in here).

The main point is that...

Ah, I think I understand you now.

So, in my example with your variant, Amra's death point is still -16 (due to his Con score of 16 being more than his bonus rage "hp" of 10). At the start of the round, he had -1hp (instead of having 9hp including the rage bonus hp as per RAW) but was still conscious and fully active due to having >-10hp. When his enemy inflicted 15 hp dmg on him during the round, he went unconscious because he went below -10 (his bonus rage hp). Unfortunately for Amra, this also brings him to his death point of -16hp so he dies. IF the enemy had brought him to, say, -12hp he would have been unconscious and dying, but not dead.

If Amra were 9th lvl, with 18 bonus rage hp, he would have a better death point of -18 rather than -16 and would be able to continue fighting all the way up to his death point.

Hmm. Not sure. It is more obvious what state he will be in should his rage end BUT if I understand you correctly, there will still be the insta-kill at mid/high lvls if he is knocked over, just as before? So the only advantage really is that the player has more visibility as to what is happening and can hopefully react by, say, keeling over (game terms= ending rage) before the point of no return. Not saying this is an insignificant advantage but it would still require a change in tactics from the player (as opposed to the character).

The merits of this idea vs allowing rage whilst unconscious might depend on whether I want the Barb to have to take more care or not, I suppose. (Generally I suspect that allowing unconscious rage would increase survivability more consistently)


Quandary wrote:

One thing you didn't mention was that it isn't necessary for the Barbarian to drop to negatives/unconscious while Raging to be killed outright (beyond point of healing) by full use of their Class Ability. Once their Bonus Rage HPs equal or exceed their CON score, when they drop Rage voluntarily or after running out of Rage Rounds they are instantly brought to below their CON Score (= dead meat) if they were 'using' more Bonus Rage HPs than their CON score to stay alive (Bonus Rage Hps exceed CON score around level 8-10 usually).

As an alternative, instead of giving the raging barbarian HPs which are then taken away later, you can just give them more 'cushion', setting their 'death point' (normally -CON) to equal the same amount of bonus Rage HPs they would have gained, meaning around level 8 their death point starts to grow bigger than their CON Score (-2x level, and later -3x level). *While in Rage*, they no longer become disabled at 0 hp and dying below that, but function normally until they become disabled at -(Bonus Rage HPs).

The point is that when they drop Rage, the "Rage HP cushion" no longer functions to *keep them conscious*, but THEY STILL BENEFIT from the augmented *death point*, i.e. they become unconscious not dead-meat-beyond-healing. The Barbarian still needs to be healed the entire amount of damage taken before regaining full HPs. Further, they still need to make stabilization checks if they are 'dying', so at high levels where the "Rage Cushion" would get very large, they are taking such huge penalties to Stabilize that they are almost guaranteed to bleed out and die eventually if their negative Hps are signifigant.

This DOES make Die-Hard/ Orc Ferocity more useful for Barbarians, which I don't think is inappropriate for a 2 Feat investment for a class with no bonus feats.

Hmm, I like the sound of this. So, to clarify using the example of play last night. "Amra the Lion" 5th lvl Barb was at -6hp including the rage bonus hp. With your suggestion he would actually be conscious (?) or unconscious (?) and when his rage ended he would go down to -16hp. However, he would not then be instantly dead because his death point is at (con 16 + rage hp 10 =-26 death point)? Which keeps his rounds to bleed out the same as they would have been were he not raging BUT his stabilisation saves are much harder to make due to having taken more damage. Is this what you had in mind?

Or are you saying he doesn't get bonus rage hp and is therefore at -16hp, going unconscious from being reduced below -10hp, and his death point is at -26hp? (And is that actually the same thing barring semantics- I am suddenly thinking it probably is after all...d'oh!)


KenderKin wrote:

I just got the funniest mental image of dual CLW wands in the hands of another party member kneeling over the nearly dead barbarian.

He lowers both wands and yells "Clear"

If it doesn't work, rinse and repeat

"clear!"

I think clear is the perfect command word for wands of CLWs.

ROFL!

Thanks to all posters.

I will have a think about swapping bonus hp for DR.

I notice no one commented on the possibility of using the 3.5 rage which continues (up to its duration of course) even when the Barb is unconcious. I think this might be my preferred option because it will still kill the Barb if his rage expires before he is healed but there is a possibility of saving him.

I appreciate the rage keeps him fighting when he should be dead but in many cases, as someone said above, it is better (both for the PC and the party and the DMs adventure path lol) that the Barb be unconcious and the next PC be wounded than the Barb be insta-killed. In practice I can't see a mighty raging barbarian cravenly withdrawing once he reaches dangerous hit points-and the problem with rage ending on unconciousness is that being knocked over means DEATH. I can see the Barb being killed at least once per AP adventure (if I allow enough raise deads for this to happen) and this will GET WORSE AS HE LEVELS UP which seems strange...

On the other hand, he dishes out too much damage anyway with his pesky 2h wpn, raging, power attack (2d6 + 16 IIRC). I should teach him to ponce around in his poxy light armour, chopping down my monsters- mwa ha ha ha ha


I am new to the Pathfinder rules so forgive me if I should know this.

Last night in my game, one of the PCs (a barbarian) went to negative hp whilst in a rage. (They are playing Three Faces of Evil, Age of Worms and the grimlock barbarian with 2 daggers and his PC were hacking each other to bits.)

He is now at 5th lvl and according to the PFRPG description of Rage it seems that (unlike "Sage advice" for 3.5) his rage ends on going unconcious. SO, he instantly "loses" 10hp more, taking his minus 6 hp to -16, which was equal to his con score= instant death with no chance to be healed etc.

My problem with this (if I am doing it right) is that it seems to me that once the Barbs get to 10th lvl (and possibly less than that) they are GUARANTEED to die outright if they go to neg hp. Best case scenario, they are at -1hp but then lose a further 20hp meaning they need a SUPER con score to not be instantly killed. And this is assuming a measly -1hp.

Is this correct?

If so, whilst I realise the Barbs could take Endurance/Diehard, I think I am going to have to go back to the 3.5 ruling to allow unconcious raging (which I don't have a problem with as I can see it representing the continued adrenaline rush coursing through their veins).

Any thoughts to help me out?


DM_Blake wrote:

I think everyone agrees that the rules for Stealth and Perception and Sneak Attack are very vague and open to misinterpretation. My hope in this thread can be used to constructively reach a consensus on how to rephrase/rewrite these rules to make them clear, concise, and correct.

A grand experiment, if you will.

This is a huge post so I've buried the relevent discussions in the following spoilers:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

...

With regard to the sneak attack and how it is applied by a "stealthing" rogue, I treat a rogue attacking from a stealth position as gaining a surprise round within the overall combat. Therefore partial action but sneak is allowed as the enemy is flatfooted (unless they have uncanny dodge).

I like your attempts to clarify, though :-)


The link to Chef's slaad's Battle of Redgorge ideas is here (if I have got the cut & paste right!)

http://paizo.com/dungeon/messageboards/shackledCity/runningTheInvasionOfRed gorge&page=1#66372&source=search (EDIT- this link works when copied from my word file but not from this post, for some reason. Just search the forum for Running the invasion of redgorge and you will find it!

I definitely intend to use it with a sort of victory points system to determine the results of the battle. In my campaign Alek was slaughtered in the first round, and Nabthatoron tactically withdrew after a hard fight. I am going to have them go on a quest to find Alakast in a modified (and slightly Kyuss influenced) Rana Mor from Dungeon 86 prior to the battle. With its (enhanced legacy) powers the stage will be set for a final conflict with Nabthatoron during the Battle of \Redgorge.

I think if Alek survives then having him succumb to madness on Carceri sounds good to me. I think it could be more dramatic if he succumbs whilst with the party (rather than after being spirited away) and the party are faced with the dilemma of what to do about his increasingly bizarre/dangerous actions. This would be more effective if his change happens gradually.

I am amazed that several of you found that Alek survived. After his mad charge out at Nabthatoron in the first round, Nabthatoron gets a FULL ATTACK. If I remember correctly he needs a 2 to hit Alek after a charge with 5 attacks and power attack and improved trip thrown in! In our game, he grabbed Alek with his pincers and basically tore him apart with his arm attacks (more than minus 10 hp). To ensure he couldn't be raised (and for dramatic effect) he then bit out his heart and swallowed it with the bite attack. Unless Nabthatoron allows himself to be distracted from Alek, I would be surprised by ALek surviving beyond the first round, let alone a couple more rounds!


Well, I would just let the party try in vain to convince Vhalantru and Skellerang not to invade Redgorge. The fact that the Last Laugh have been shown to be working against the Chisel doesn't automatically restore the Chisel to their good graces. Skellerang has worked with the Last Laugh before (in Drakthar's Way) and he seems easily swayed by Vhalantru. Also, Skellerang doesn't want to be deposed by Tercival's challenge and he blames the Chisel for being behind that. If the last laugh prisoner is inconvenient, Vhalantru can easily hire someone to dispose of him as well, don't forget-perhaps the mad Derro, Kravichek. That should add to the party's paranoia...

Hmm, maybe I should engineer it so my guys capture a provocateur as well....


If you want a response, you could have Saagagoi go off to round up some outside Kuo Toa settlement's war party.

However, I tend to feel that Dhorlot would probably decide the jig was up in Bhaal Hamatugn and it was time to move on (since his comfortable set up has been trashed). As for Zenith, I would say he would stay brooding in his chamber until the very end come what may. Saagagoi could stay with him in an attempt to persuade him to leave.

In terms of providing a challenge once they've rested (if that's the issue) then either use the Kuo Toa reinforcements or give Zenith an extra invisible stalker, or beef his levels up (mobile defensive stance would be handy).

When my party finished this last week, they sound like they were in similar shape to yours (healed up but out of most spells) but they chose to push on in order to try to complete the mission before any more enemies turned up. Zenith and company gave them a tough fight, but no one died. The party never encountered Dhorlot as they guessed the drawbridges on the upper temple level must be guarding something important and on completing the mission they returned to the surface ASAP with their prize.


Sean's idea seems a good one to me.

However, were your players just really unlucky (lots of crits against them etc)? If not, then they are "dead men walking" into the rest of the adventures to come. Those alleybashers etc are (relatively) push overs compared to what awaits them. They need a major power upgrade via side trek or rewards from Jenya etc if they are to survive even one major encounter (if, as I say, this was a typical performance and not some aberration of the dice).


My party didn't have too much trouble in the temple. The initial whip encounter weakened them (the soldiers being mere distraction). Then they barged in on the High Priest and I thought they were going to be in trouble with 2 EL9 opponents when Aushanna arrived. However, the Priest had yet to get all his armour on, so he was not as dangerous as he would normally be. Aushanna had appalling luck on her first 2 volleys and by then the party had dispatched the Priest and taken cover in his room. After that it was easy, given the problems Aushanna then faced- time limit and restricted room to maneuver if she came after the good guys.


Frank Steven Gimenez wrote:

I also do the dead if HP are below zero minus CON score instead of -10, and after the party level was going to be two above the expected level and they were pwning every encounter, I stopped keeping track of experience and have them level at certain points of the adventure. Now they are at level and still pwning almost every encounter. Having a raging fullblade specialist as a PC has tipped the scales a bit. She did a 76 hp crit against Nabthatoron and the party took him out in one round. I kept him up just a little bit longer* so that he could kill Alek, then leave but had him fall when the rogue with Alakast crit him with her AoO. That worked out just right. At least I had him sunder the flaming bow from the archer with one of his attacks before focusing on Alek.

*note the evil hypocracy from someone who has stated to let the dice fall where they may. Please shoot me! Stop me before I DM again!

Hmm, a lucky crit would certainly threaten my plans for Nabthatoron, as the barbarian in my party could do a similar thing to your fullblade specialist (whatever that is ;-)) ). However, I won't be giving them Alakast quite so easily or so soon as the book does... Also, I may have to give Nabthatoron a couple of action points of his own (then he can avoid the odd crit or terrible roll) as I theoretically do for major NPCs anyway, but never really end up doing.


I'd agree that IF they survive, their xp will put them at a higher level to compensate a bit for the lack of numbers. However, they won't have the extra actions that a group of six would (as a whole) and if one goes down it will have a bigger impact on the group-potentially leading to a domino effect TPK.

My party has 4 characters (non-gestalt) and I use an action point system to allow key rerolls (this offsets lack of extra actions somewhat and stops someone falling too easily to a charm or hold spell, for example)and to reduce a crit to a normal hit. See Unearthed Arcana or Eberron or Mutants and Masterminds for action points. Personally I use the M&M one with bits of the UA thrown in.

Also, to make the PCs more resistant to death, I let them take the best of 2 rolls for hit points on levelling up and they don't die until minus con score hp are reached, rather than minus 10hp. (This is necessary in my campaign as raise dead is a 7th level spell and only the Wee Jassians can cast it in Cauldron-and of course that won't be happening as they are not fans of the PCs).

So far, this has worked well with only one death up to halfway through Zenith Trajectory. Sometimes enemy spells seem nerfed by action points (as its much easier to save) but the overall effect is fine. After all, major spellcasters have higher DCs anyway and the players only have a limited number of action points per level.

However, with 4 PCs I did feel it was necessary to reduce xp at the lower levels so they didn't shoot up levels too quickly (in any case, those skulks and creepers are worth way too many xp!) Now they are in Zenith Trajectory, I am giving out normal xp again as the hurdles for level gain are further apart, but I will be closely monitoring this as we go on.


My guys decided to take on the high priest just as Aushanna started to materialise! I thought they were done for with the Scooby Doo "let's split up" thing. However, Aushanna had some amazingly poor luck initially with her shots hardly hitting at all (rolls of 2 and 3 came up with depressing regularity!) and of course Mangh didn't have his armour on properly. Helped by his worse AC, they managed to take him out and then wisely holed up in his shrine. Aushanna couldn't shoot them from a distance and couldn't wait them out due to her limited time on the material plane. When she swept into the shrine, her distracting illusion failed and they surrounded her and chopped her apart in melee in the constricted space. The only thing I wasn't sure of was whether she could flee if she knew she was in trouble- I ruled not as she was compelled to serve by the statue's binding.

However, the combination of the 3 EL9 encounters in one go has certainly drained their stocks of cure moderate wounds potions looted from all those hillfolk in Storm Season ;-)))


My group handled the hydra just fine with a combination of spells and melee damage to the body. Granted, a couple of characters were in single digit hit points (so I suppose it was nearly a semi-TPK) but the encounter came across as a tough but satisfying fight. Evasion and minor energy resistance came in very useful for 2 characters as well, come to think of it.

Given that the group should be fresh when they tackle it, I really wouldn't cheat them out of the challenge. If its too tough, they can probably retreat and regroup, as others have said. I personally used the separate breaths from each head ruling and this worked well for atmosphere AND chance to survive for individual PCs.


zoroaster100 wrote:

O.k., I decided to throw Nabthatoron at the party as per written in the Demonskar Legacy adventure. The player characters were peeking outside into the desert, trying to figure out if they were still on the Prime Material Plane. Alek Tercival had calmed down somewhat and had been convinced that he'd been tricked by the "angels." Then Nabthatoron arrived. I have a house rule that it takes one round to arrive when teleporting in, so the party got to cast one round of buffing as Nabthatoron arrived. They were suitably terrified as I plopped down the huge glabrezu miniature on the tomb built out of Dwarven Forge pieces, towering over the players' miniatures, especially the itsy bitsy gnome rogue's miniature.

The demon blasted them with unholy blight because they were bunched up together, though only two of the six party members were sickened. Then Alek charged in and Nabthatoron picked him up in a pincer (improved grapple). The next round, Nabthatoron inflicted over a hundred fifty points of damage to Alek, hitting with all four claws and the bite using max Power Attack. I described Nabthatoron grabbing Alek's feet each with a small claw and his arms each with a pincer, then biting the paladin's head off while he was torn in four pieces and the pieces tossed in four directions. Then they heard the demon's voice in their heads through telepathy: "Who's next?"

It was a cool and memorable battle. I had Nabthatoron taunt each player telepathically when it was their turn. Miraculously no player character died, though several were very close to death. The players got lucky and managed to inflict a lot of damage and slow the demon with a spell while hasting themselves. The warrior types were both grappled in the demon's claws while the others attacked with spells and everything they could think of. Finally, as things got too close for Nabthatoron's comfort (and for the player's comfort too), Nabthatoron teleported out of the tomb into the desert, and sent them another telepathic message: "You failed....

Cool- this is what I will be aiming for with my guys. If they do somehow defeat Nabthatoron, I can always fall back on his Hezrou lieutenant for Redgorge, but I don't think it will be a problem as there's only 4 PCs...


My party took him out last night. They were helped quite a bit by Jared's bard song and his major image of Dhorlot swooping down, which made Gottrod take evasive action within melee range of the ground for a round. (I decided that Jared would know of the rivalry between Dhorlot & Gottrod and use it to make a more believable illusion. It also gave a clue to the party about the Black being around somewhere, although they haven't picked up on it much...) After a round of melee attacks, they were able to weaken him sufficiently to finish him off with spells and archery.


Thundergawd wrote:

My version of Alakast is an intellegent weapon that will slowly gain more powers as the wielder bonds more with it through roleplaying and of course slaughtering evil outsiders. I set up Alakast to be the soul of Nidrama's celestial brother, who was reforged into this quarterstaff when he fell in battle against many fiends in an ancient and forgotten war on another plane.

Thundergawd

I was thinking of "improving" Alakast with one cold iron head and one silver head. What sort of "growth" powers were you thinking of?

I like the Nidrama's brother connection, too. If I am going to make finding the staff more epic feeling, then I really ought to make the staff itself more interesting. What about a tie-in to Adimarchus as well, or would this be trying to do too much with it?


Exactly what GROG said.

I am tentatively planning to remove Alakast (!) and have them fight Nabthatoron as scripted. Then they will have a reason to want revenge on him later after he presumably brushes them aside as he slaughters Alek. I am planning to use some ideas about the Invasion of Redgorge from these boards (notably Chef's Slaad) where the party has to lead the defence against the demons in a final showdown. As a prelude I will have the Bard guy from the Chisel lead the party on a quest to recover the legendary Alakast, Nabthatoron's nemesis, from Surabar's tomb deep in the jungle (for which I plan to use a modified Rana Mor for the approx 12th level party, including a Kyuss corrupted priesthood). Hopefully the party will get a chance to finally defeat Nabthatoron using Alakast and their greater experience.

Of course, we are only just about to start Zenith Trajectory at the moment, so its a bit premature yet!


Frank Steven Gimenez wrote:

I have the church of Wee Jas be the place for magic item creation. According to the more detailed profile of her church (.zip download), magic item creation is an important duty of the church. I declared that they could enchant magic items up to 6th level caster level at book price. Anything higher would require a favor from one of the high priests. But they don't know that last part.

Luckly the PC dwarven wizard has picked up Craft Arms & Armor. What's even more interesting is that the dwarven wizard is a member of the church of Wee Jas in good standing. Since she donates her magic item crafting skills to the church and has demonstrated a proper lawful attitude, she has been awarded acceptance into the outer circle of the church, which grants a 20% discount on any Wee Jas items or service, and she may copy any wizard spell they have and it only costs her the cost of scribing the spell.

I ruled that most customised items of +2 or above could only be made by the church of Wee Jas or ordered (with a long lead time) from Sasserine via Skie and/or Maavu. Skie stocks items of this power but not necessarily exactly what the party wants. This led to a great meeting with Ike where a couple of PCs were rude to him when he was dismissive of them and got into a confrontation with him. "Luckily" for the PCs some lay worshippers turned up and an embarrassed Ike ushered the PCs on their way as their "combat training" had "over-run." Of course, there are great opportunities for veiled animosity in public meetings, now, to say nothing of a chance to get revenge in Lords of Oblivion.


Sir Kaikillah wrote:
They made thier saves

What saves? I didn't think there was a save...


I am interested as to how deadly this burrowing worm attack has been in practice for your players. Has it claimed many PCs for the worm god's legions or are they dealing with it nonchalantly? What effect has it had on combats and tactics? Do they have a healer with a silver scalpel constantly waiting in the rear for a spot of quick battlefield surgery?


Sorry if this should be really obvious, but are Paladins immune to the worm infestation since they are immune to disease? I am thinking that they must be, since they are immune to magical diseases and "cure disease" kills the worms, but is the worm infestation technically a disease?


Theolotus wrote:

3x5 cards. They work as book marks and stat blocks. If you have 3x5 stat blocks of your players, it also makes initiative really easy by simply putting the cards in order of intiative.

Again, it takes prep work, but I've found a 3x5 stat block, items, and rolls for attack and damage take about 3-4 min.

This sounds like a very good idea for complicated foes like the high level spellcasters I am worried about and is probably exactly what I am looking for.

Not sure if it would be worth the materials (time to go buy them and storage/organisation/transportation etc)and effort for lower level mooks. However, I can definitely see the benefit for the initiative order even there. Perhaps I will do a trial run with "easier" monsters and see if I get hooked...

I take it 3x5 cards are better because of easier handling than, say, smaller cards?


Is it just me that finds it awkward to have the stat blocks in the back of the Hard Cover rather than in the main text body? Even up to Zenith Trajectory (which we are just about to start) I am having to mutilate my beloved book by writing a few key combat stats into the margins. This is OK-perhaps even better than the full stat blocks being in the main text for clarity-but is more time consuming for me (though perhaps it helps me prep by thinking about what will be the key info I will need).

However, I am quite worried about future combats with multiple spell casting or other complicated foes. There simply won't be room to jot down their key abilities AND their stat bocks will be separated on different pages in the appendix. Wouldn't it be easier to have these stats in the main text as it is in the original magazine adventures?

How do the rest of you cope with stat block management?


Pyrix wrote:

The best part of the Vittriss Bale encounter is its completion is not essential to move the storyline along. All the useful information has usually already been attained from Fetor Abradius's room. In fact the only incentive for the PC's to undertake this brutal encounter is to get XP for Vittriss and recover his hoard.

But its fun to use it as an opportunity to give the PC's an unholy beating, especially if they made quick work of the other denizens of Karran-Kural.

The way I ran the encounter was this:

When Vittriss becomes aware of the party coming down the corridor via the alarm spell, he casts mirror image, mage armor etc. on himself and climbs above the entranceway using spider climb. The hapless party stands on the ledge gawking at the soul pillars and the ice bridge unaware of the pending doom lurking directly above them. One of the PCs may look up at the ceiling, or if they don't have a drop of acid land on somebody's shoulder (from Vittriss ramping up for his breath weapon attack). As soon as everybody looks up, they'll see up to half of dozen nasty as hell dracoliches leering down at them. Have everybody make their Will saves vs. his Frightful Presence at this time. Since the DC is 26, a lot of them won't make the save and suddenly find themselves petrified, unable to move as he unleashes his devastating tempest breath weapon. This will knock all but the largest characters prone and even large size creatures will be checked and unable to run away against the blast. If you want to be really nasty, have Vittriss do his petrifying gaze attack to get anybody who wasn't affected by the Frightful Presence effect. After that, Vittriss will drop down and start ripping up immobilized PC's with his savage improved multiattacks.

My group barely survived the first two rounds and wasn't able to land a single blow against him before the party wizard recovered from the fear effect and teleported everybody out.

Ah, so you reckon its more of a "Bloody hell, let's get out of here before we all die" encounter where they are not really intended to defeat him?

Can he pursue them into the ruins?(I don't have the book handy right now.


How did these fights go? I am reading ahead and he looks like a party killer! Paralyzing touch DC26 with every melee hit?!?!

I am actually considering removing him or maybe weakening him in some way.

Experiences gratefully received....


Solomani wrote:

Guys,

My group will be just entering Bhal Hamatugn. Normally my group only has 4 to 6 people turning up our of a pool of 8. Tomorrow everyone will be turning up. A first in the 9 months we have been playing the AP.

Their level range is 1x7, 4x6 and the rest are level 5. Should I beef up the encounters? I have been building up to the fight with Aushanna (the eriynes). The group had a tough time fighting the dragon with 5 people but won without deaths. They had a somewhat easier time vs the hydra with 6 people.

So should I beef up the encounters? Or play it by ear? What I tend to do if an encounter is too easy is increase the monsters hps on the fly upto maximum. I have actually never had to do that this campaign as all the fights have been balanced.

The only thing I will most likely do is had a buddy to Mitcho. Otherwise not sure.

My guys are just about to start Zenith Trajectory, so I haven't got practical experience for you. However, I reckon you might perhaps want to increase the numbers of Kuo Toa soldiers by half again and otherwise just do your hit point thing. A lot of the other encounters look tough anyway, and the worst that can happen is probably that they don't need to retreat before finishing the temple off.


Chucullainn wrote:

Well we just started, a bit of a surprise for me as the adventure we were playing ended in a surprise TPK 30 minutes into the game. 1 hour later and a quick read I am now the DM and we are into the Life's Bazaar.

Well I wasn't as prepared as I'd like so we started and it is going well. One of the party choose the Cauldron Feat in the SCAP book of Nobility. How did you play this?

Was he a member of a noble house or a new one?
The party member wanted to know would he have a house in Cauldron and I think yes, has anyone else done this?

Apart from that surprising how well it has gone, conflict in the party in the first encounter with one a Monk of St. Cuthbert and the another a Cleric of thieves (can't remember name at the mo).

What fun!

Cheers in advance for opinions

Dave

Our noble is the second son of a minor noble family out in Kingfisher Hollow. They own a few plantations and he is known to some of the nobles (grew up with Alek Tercival) but not closely connected with them.


delvesdeep wrote:

The town gaurd and in particular captain Teresong (sp?) has posed a delemia for me of late.

Is he a misguided good guy?

Is he a villian needing to be desposed of leaving honourable Skylar Krewis to take over the position?

Is the guard evil once it becomes inflitrated by the half-orcs or a mix?

How did people handle the gaurd during the AP?

Delvesdeep

I see Terseon as somewhat indolent. He does his job but without zeal. Then I see him being corrupted by Vhalantru. Bribes, offers of greater status etc. However, he is still just about the leader of the "conscience faction" (those who still have scruples and won't do outright evil) of the Cauldron guard, which is why I plan to have him disposed of by Zarn Kyass during the attack on Redgorge where he can be a convenient casualty of war. (This last bit is stolen from Chef's Slaad and his expansion ideas for the Battle of Redgorge). This will pave the way for a split in the cauldron military between those supporting the coup d'etat and those aiding the PCs against it.