One of the pcs in a game you are running finds a library filled with books on vasrious subjects. What happens next. The pc (a wizard) decides he want to stay there for a month and "study". What happens? Does he gain anything for it? If so, how much?
Thanks for the help.
It's up to you. You could do this various ways:
1) Say that the library gives bonuses to various Knowledge skills. Worst version is that he has to consult the library. If you're nice, give him a +1 bonus here and there for studying. Maybe even a free Skill Focus feat in a Knowledge skill.
2) Stock it with a few rare tomes with some real monetary value and let him find them.
3) Add a few spellbooks to the mix with whatever spells you like. Maybe even a spell scroll or two.
4) If you really love your players, add a few magical tomes.
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One of the pcs in a game you are running finds a library filled with books on vasrious subjects. What happens next. The pc (a wizard) decides he want to stay there for a month and "study". What happens? Does he gain anything for it? If so, how much?
Thanks for the help.
Unless it's specifically a library of magic-related stuff, i would give him some bonuses to various knowledge checks. Depending on the size of the library and what materials it had, I would give maybe a +1 or 2 bonus on a range of skills. For a small library maybe history and local, for a large one I might give it to all of them. This would also depend on what the PC said regarding what subjects they were seeking material on.
Bonuses to various knowledge checks are nice. I would recomend also using it as a plot tool. He finds some important bit of information in one of the major books that leads them on their next quest. Or they find out something important to their current quest. Alternatively, you could drop him hints in the future that he remembers that there was something in the books about something they encounter in the future. Players like plot hooks, and it sounds like you could use some if you have the time to sit arround for a month without any pressure.
Richard Pett and I did a few pages worth of books you can find in libraries for the GameMastery Guide. I have a bunch of random tables for determining things like book topics and language which I use to stock libraries. I might have posted them somewhere on the forums already.
Is it an abandoned library? In most of the games I play in, the result would be a bunch of empty shelves, and several very full bags of holding.
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I'm a fan of allowing players to make any knowledge checks while using the library at a +X bonus (where X is the relative size/usefulness of the library). This would also allow characters without the knowledge skill make the check untrained. This bonus is available only when you have the library at hand.
As far as "using" the library to improve your skill, that's what skill points are for, representing your accumulated knowledge. That knowledge doesn't come out of thin air, it comes from either experience, research, or both. So I wouldn't provide a specific benefit when outside of the library, but I would when it was consulted.
While I've allowed the players to learn new/rare skills through studying at an abandoned library or get a bonus towards a particular check I usually use the library for story purposes, plot hooks and background information. I've found it is a great way to insert some background story for the adventure or introduce some additional plot information without being heavy handed. Once I was able to get a derailed campaign back on track without the players realizing it using the library found in an abandoned monastery.
I also have one player for whom libraries/books are the best way for him to learn information. He can talk to all of the NPCs he wants and still be clueless as to what is going on but as soon as I stick the information in a book or library for his character to find everything clicks and he is leading the way.
I'm a fan of allowing players to make any knowledge checks while using the library at a +X bonus (where X is the relative size/usefulness of the library). This would also allow characters without the knowledge skill make the check untrained. This bonus is available only when you have the library at hand.
This.
As far as "using" the library to improve your skill, that's what skill points are for, representing your accumulated knowledge. That knowledge doesn't come out of thin air, it comes from either experience, research, or both. So I wouldn't provide a specific benefit when outside of the library, but I would when it was consulted.
And especially this.
Letting a library add permanent skill increases or bonus Skill Focus feats also sets a dangerous precedent for your campaign. Suddenly all of your new characters are 'x level, and have spent y number of years studying in the worlds libraries'. Or even current PCs may decide to 'take some time off' whenever they come into a large city that may have a decent place to 'study'.
Don't Wizards get to make up new spells to add to their book per some period of study time?
Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
As far as "using" the library to improve your skill, that's what skill points are for, representing your accumulated knowledge. That knowledge doesn't come out of thin air, it comes from either experience, research, or both. So I wouldn't provide a specific benefit when outside of the library, but I would when it was consulted.And especially this.
Letting a library add permanent skill increases or bonus Skill Focus feats also sets a dangerous precedent for your campaign. Suddenly all of your new characters are 'x level, and have spent y number of years studying in the worlds libraries'. Or even current PCs may decide to 'take some time off' whenever they come into a large city that may have a decent place to 'study'.
While adding permanent bonuses can be dangerous, I find it can also help the game alot by allowing in character actions to have an affect on character growth. The trick, I find, is to hand them out as roleplaying rewards and not for actions that derail the game, like forcing everyone to take a lot of downtime. If on the other hand, this 1 month of downtime progresses the story, giving the wizard a bonus for this is not bad. I would recomend asking everyone what they are doing durring the month though, and give them all something that fits their character.
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I'm a fan of allowing players to make any knowledge checks while using the library at a +X bonus (where X is the relative size/usefulness of the library). This would also allow characters without the knowledge skill make the check untrained. This bonus is available only when you have the library at hand.This.
As far as "using" the library to improve your skill, that's what skill points are for, representing your accumulated knowledge. That knowledge doesn't come out of thin air, it comes from either experience, research, or both. So I wouldn't provide a specific benefit when outside of the library, but I would when it was consulted.And especially this.
Letting a library add permanent skill increases or bonus Skill Focus feats also sets a dangerous precedent for your campaign. Suddenly all of your new characters are 'x level, and have spent y number of years studying in the worlds libraries'. Or even current PCs may decide to 'take some time off' whenever they come into a large city that may have a decent place to 'study'.
+H
Letting a library add permanent skill increases or bonus Skill Focus feats also sets a dangerous precedent for your campaign. Suddenly all of your new characters are 'x level, and have spent y number of years studying in the worlds libraries'. Or even current PCs may decide to 'take some time off' whenever they come into a large city that may have a decent place to 'study'.
This is one place where the GM needs to distinguish between in-game actions and character creation actions. If a new character has studied in libraries, that needs to be represented by skill ranks, skill focus or something similar.
Characters have essentially infinite time to do things during character generation, but once they enter the game, time is often a limited resource. That month spent in the library is a month when he was not crafting items full time or researching new spells. Even if it is a character like a fighter who has limited use for extended down time, it's still a month where the BBEG's plans are advancing and the character is not make any other progress to stop them. (Possibly after the month he has learned a better way to stop the BBEG, but plans have still advanced.)
I would give the player a quick summary of the contents of the library, such as you could figure out in a hour or so by wandering around and taking a quick look at the available tomes. ("This library documents the history of the world, apparently up to about 500 years ago") and then ask the player what they where focusing on. The more narrow their focus, the larger the bonus but the less likely it will apply to any given check.
For example, if the player decides to sample a little bit of everything, that would probably be +1 to Knowledge (History). If he focuses on Cheliax, that would be +2 to Knowledge (History) when the check relates to Cheliax. If he focuses on the city of Korvosa, that is probably +3 (but won't apply most of the time) and Korvosa during the reign of Queen Illiosa would probably be worth +4.
If it's obvious to the players that knowledge of Korvosa during Illiosa's reign is important, the bonus might be capped by the contents of the library to a lesser value that I'm willing to allow them to have.
Edit: in case it's not entirely clear, that bonus would be a house rule.
If they want to write a new spell or modify an existing spell. Biggest problem with spell research and making new spells is the new spell is not RAW (although created by RAW, it is still homebrew)
Researching a new spell to add to your spellbook is not homebrewing a spell...
Researching a new spell to add to your spellbook is not homebrewing a spell...
If they want to write a new spell or modify an existing spell. Biggest problem with spell research and making new spells is the new spell is not RAW (although created by RAW, it is still homebrew)Of course it is!
There is no way to add the new spell to RAW!
...yeah, not what I meant. Researching a spell is a way to add a spell to your spellbook outside of leveling or copying it from another source.
As pointed out by someone else the knowledge skill already suggest how to deal with libraries.
There is a book for 3er Edition, Stronghold Builder's Guidebook which also have laboratories and libraries. Usually it allows the characters to have a bonus when researching related information, a bonus when creating magic items or researching spells, etc.. You may also want to give 'em a bonus for a while after they study the books even if they are far away from the library.
Also note that for a character with intelligence 22, level 7 and already 5 ranks in knowledge, any book is useless, except rare books, so the library that grants a bonus at level 2 may become useless at level 6.
Ah, if you count the library as treasure (the kind of treasure that makes you think that there is no need to put another 2000 gp in the treasure, i.e.) then you should make it worth that amount of treasure.
The main benefit of libraries in my games are two fold.
1) They give you a bonus to knowledge checks (as long as you use the library of course). This can range from +0 to +3 on all knowledge checks and a library specialization bonus of +1 to +5 on 1 to 2 specific knowledge checks.
2) They allow you to retry failed knowledge checks. Each retry has an exponential time period 'recharge'.
1st attempt 2 hours study; 2nd attempt 8 hours study; 3rd attempt 18 hours study; 4th attempt 32 hours study; 5th attempt 50 hours study; etc.
I use: Number of hours of study = (Attempt Number squared) X 2
Not really that dangerous for a DM to let all PCs add a skill point into the PC.....
I mean really it is one skill point , 1 rank
I am not saying do it all the time just as part of the game an unexpected extra....
PC love it and it isn't even equal to a trait!!!
Imagine having a campaign world where everyone was familiar with horses/ponies
everyone has handle animal 1 rank and ride 1 rank...Is it going to break the game????
The DM saying, 'Hey, since this is a Desert Nomad setting everyone starts with a skill point in Ride' or 'You all start with a rank in one extra Knowledge or Crafting skill to account for your 'pre-adventuring days'. Is not what I'm talking about. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and I really don't see how you even got that out of my post.
Now saying every time you visit a library add a skill point to whatever, is really dumb, but no one is saying that...
This is exactly the situation I could see happening. Players have long memories. The next time they come across a library, be assured that they will remember the extra skill points they got last time, "Ohhh, let's do that again".
Now saying every time you visit a library add a skill point to whatever, is really dumb, but no one is saying that...This is exactly the situation I could see happening. Players have long memories. The next time they come across a library, be assured that they will remember the extra skill points they got last time, "Ohhh, let's do that again".
Give them the bonus knowledge points as an "advance" on their next level. They get the benefit of learning the skill earlier than normal, but when they level it all evens out.
ALso, there will be overlap between libraries. You could give them the bonus this time. Next time, they spend a month studying paraphrases of what they have already learned.
Now saying every time you visit a library add a skill point to whatever, is really dumb, but no one is saying that...This is exactly the situation I could see happening. Players have long memories. The next time they come across a library, be assured that they will remember the extra skill points they got last time, "Ohhh, let's do that again".
A. How does it break the game to give minor bonuses to players, especially in a home game?
B. If the players have the downtime to do things, they should be rewarded in some way for what they do. There are lots of ways to reward them, but it is very boring to skip forward a month in game and get nothing out of it. Making new contacts, crafting items, and getting bonus knowledge are all perfectly appropriate ways of giving the players bonuses.C. Do your players have months of downtime regularly? Most campaigns I am in rarely have a full week go by without the world progressing arround us. Spending a full month on a library without getting something important out of it would be a huge hit to most campaigns I have played.
Now, I am not advocating giving these bonuses out just for libraries either. I say give them out for any time the players have a good idea, and reward them taking an active role in their downtime actions. Don't always give them the same thing though, and don't make it predictable.
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Now saying every time you visit a library add a skill point to whatever, is really dumb, but no one is saying that...This is exactly the situation I could see happening. Players have long memories. The next time they come across a library, be assured that they will remember the extra skill points they got last time, "Ohhh, let's do that again".A. How does it break the game to give minor bonuses to players, especially in a home game?
B. If the players have the downtime to do things, they should be rewarded in some way for what they do. There are lots of ways to reward them, but it is very boring to skip forward a month in game and get nothing out of it. Making new contacts, crafting items, and getting bonus knowledge are all perfectly appropriate ways of giving the players bonuses.
C. Do your players have months of downtime regularly? Most campaigns I am in rarely have a full week go by without the world progressing arround us. Spending a full month on a library without getting something important out of it would be a huge hit to most campaigns I have played.Now, I am not advocating giving these bonuses out just for libraries either. I say give them out for any time the players have a good idea, and reward them taking an active role in their downtime actions. Don't always give them the same thing though, and don't make it predictable.
Heh, my problem is that my players don't use the downtime they're given to the best of their abilities. But my guys have had several times they could do this.
It doesn't break the game, what it does do is cause your players to have an expectation. For example, I'm sometimes known for giving bonus experience upon completing a Quest (note the capital Q). Now every time something in game the characters wanted the player lists it in an attempt to get bonus xp, to the point where it's rediculous "Well, we arrived in magnimar, that's a personal goal" it was a two day trip where you had one random encounter, stop trying to push for xp.
And that's what the dangerous precedence is, every library you go to from here on out, "I take a month off to study" even if you say that won't work, most of the info is the same as the last library, expect arguments of "You mean despite the fact that the last three libraries I visited have all had the same books I'm not learning anything new at all, if anything I'd expect my bonus to go even higher in specific areas because I'm so well versed by now." etc. etc. ad naseum.
Besides libraries should only give bonuses while you're in them. Just because you read something doesn't mean you retain it. That's what increasing skill points are for.
As for rewarding them for downtime, "I do nothing strenuous or engaging reward me" isn't something I really agree with. If characters use their downtime to craft or make new contacts that's one thing, but just giving them rewards because we've fast forwarded, nope, not something i agree with.
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I'm a fan of allowing players to make any knowledge checks while using the library at a +X bonus (where X is the relative size/usefulness of the library). This would also allow characters without the knowledge skill make the check untrained. This bonus is available only when you have the library at hand.This.
As far as "using" the library to improve your skill, that's what skill points are for, representing your accumulated knowledge. That knowledge doesn't come out of thin air, it comes from either experience, research, or both. So I wouldn't provide a specific benefit when outside of the library, but I would when it was consulted.And especially this.
Letting a library add permanent skill increases or bonus Skill Focus feats also sets a dangerous precedent for your campaign. Suddenly all of your new characters are 'x level, and have spent y number of years studying in the worlds libraries'. Or even current PCs may decide to 'take some time off' whenever they come into a large city that may have a decent place to 'study'.
+2. As per RAW, this bonus should likely be treated as a +2 circumstance bonus (you could also label it as insight or competence bonus, but I'd stick to the rules myself). However, if you're using 3E material, 'Stronghold Builder's Guidebook' mentions libraries giving either +2 or +4 reference bonus (depending on size and quality) on all knowledge checks.
Also, learning things and storing them in long-term memory is *hard* (anyone who's ever studied knows this). That is represented by skill points. Therefore, I too agree that libraries should not give any permanent mundane or magical bonus ranks. Furthermore, using libraries is difficult as well (even for a scholar) even when the works are catalogued and arranged according to some sort of logical system. If the system seems irrational or chaotic -- or there isn't one -- it is even harder to find the piece of information you're looking for.
A. How does it break the game to give minor bonuses to players, especially in a home game?
B. If the players have the downtime to do things, they should be rewarded in some way for what they do. There are lots of ways to reward them, but it is very boring to skip forward a month in game and get nothing out of it. Making new contacts, crafting items, and getting bonus knowledge are all perfectly appropriate ways of giving the players bonuses.
C. Do your players have months of downtime regularly? Most campaigns I am in rarely have a full week go by without the world progressing arround us. Spending a full month on a library without getting something important out of it would be a huge hit to most campaigns I have played.Now, I am not advocating giving these bonuses out just for libraries either. I say give them out for any time the players have a good idea, and reward them taking an active role in their downtime actions. Don't always give them the same thing though, and don't make it predictable.
lastknightleft already made a great post in reply to this, I'll just add this.
I'm not saying it's 'game breaking', but it could lead to unbalancing issues, depending on how important skills are in your campaign. If that doesn't bug you, then have at it.
I'm all for rewarding player creativity and participation, and reward accordingly. I just use experience and wealth for those rewards.
One of the pcs in a game you are running finds a library filled with books on vasrious subjects. What happens next. The pc (a wizard) decides he want to stay there for a month and "study". What happens? Does he gain anything for it? If so, how much?
Thanks for the help.
I would make them spend 1dX hours there studying to get a bonus though.
I would make them spend 1dX hours there studying to get a bonus though.One of the pcs in a game you are running finds a library filled with books on vasrious subjects. What happens next. The pc (a wizard) decides he want to stay there for a month and "study". What happens? Does he gain anything for it? If so, how much?
Thanks for the help.
I'm a college student. If say 1d8 or 1d12 or even 1d100 hours studying in a library was enough to give huge bonuses I should be a godly font of knowledge by now due to accruing dozens of bonuses, I've probably spent literally months on end in the place if you added all the time together.
This is roleplaying the wizard's intention to put ranks in Knowledge skills when he next levels. If he has the specific opportunity to consult the library while rolling any particular knowledge check, +2 for favorable circumstances.
I'm all for awarding feats instead of normal wealth and what not, just make sure you account for it in the wealth by level part of things and everything should be fine.
For example:
Skill Focus gives a +3 to one skill. That's easy to calculate the price of. Once it goes up to +6 you simply recalculate for the higher bonus.
Dodge, weapon focus, and the like are all fairly easy to calculate for. Feats like Toughness, Improved Initiative, and spell mastery are a little harder but not too much so.
Generally put as long as you realize that you are basically giving your players bonuses in a different form from normal "treasure" and account accordingly everything should be fine.
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I'd have to agree with the idea that the month of study allows him to take points in whatever knowledge skills he chooses at the next level. I *might* even say that he can have those skill points early, but any points spent now would not be available at the new level. Would probably also limit it to one skill point per week at most.
I do like the idea of the character taking notes as part of that month of study, though. If he's out adventuring, and makes a check for a currently untrained knowledge skill, and has the time to search through his notes, then I'd allow him to make the check (with no bonus besides INT, obviously.)