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Pathfinder doesn't lend itself wonderfully to monstrous cohorts.
Aside from the obvious notes from the leadership feats, picking some strange options in cohorts can create balance issues.
The effective level of a monster is not equal to it's challenge rating. In fact, there is no quick and simple rule to determine what that monster's effective character level will be.
Page 316 gives some specific examples of cohorts and levels. I'd suggest you pick one of those as your cohort.
When determining what level a cohort should be, you need to start by looking at the particular focus of that monster. Melee/ranged/caster/skill/support and determine which one the creature is geared to the MOST.
Then determine what level a class-appropriate analogue would need to be in order to be on par with that creature. This is really something that needs to be done with your DM.
But basically, look at the creature and think to yourself *would this make a better fighter than a fighter? At what level does the fighter come out on top again?
If the monster has multiple areas of abilities, such as melee and spellcasting, then for all the secondary abilities, determine class levels for those abilities, cut that total in half, and add it to your primary role total.
Then you have to factor in extra abilities as well, ex, sp, su, at will and use/day powers. There isn't a simple rule and a lot of it is guesswork beyond those creatures that pathfinder specifically listed on pg 316.
It's kind of a pain in the rear.
So I would strongly suggest you either go with a regular character, or one of those specifically listed on 316 so you don't have to go through the headache and the constant mid-game reevaluations over whether the cohort is too powerful.
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Sorry for the late reply, unless I'm mistaken, the Bestiary (p314) states that when using a monster as a PC you should consider it's CR as it's starting level, how are cohorts any different?
That's not quite right.
The actual section is this: "For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes."
Note that the intent here is that all players in a group start with monster of the same challenge rating. This is to keep the party balanced within itself. The dm can adjust xp as needed to achieve appropriate progression. And that counting the CR as class levels only works when all players start as monsters with the same CR.
It's different when you're introducing a monster character into a party of class-only pcs.
Also a quote from the same section, which is on page 314 of the bestiary.
"GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game. As monster characters progress, GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play."
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The general formula for calculating the effective character level of a monster cohort seems to be CR + (1 to 4)
Essentially, take the CR of the appropriate monster you wish for your cohort and then add anywhere from 1 to 4 (the norm seems to be 2 or 3) additional levels, depending on the overall power level of the creature.
Unfortunately, there are a few on the chart that break this rule and add many more additional levels in order to get a final, effective character level (such as the Ettin) but this loose formula will work as a starting point.
The reason for this is because CR is a value designed to give the GM a way of knowing how challenging a given monster or creature will be for an average group of adventurers to FIGHT. A cohort essentially gives all the monster's abilities, both combat related and not combat related, to the player to use on a long term basis. So, if a creature is so-so in combat, but has many unique abilities that would be of large benefit a player in lots of different ways over his career, that cohort would most likely be given a higher effective character level than one that just basically fights.
Make sense? It's certainly not an exact science, but that is the theory behind the numbers.
I've been doing a LOT of work with this feat, the table and the numbers within for an upcoming project ...
As for which creature, I'm mostly considering an Erinyes, one of my all time favorites, and one from the provided list. Even if I do go with that one, I would still like to have a fairly standardized formula for the others for future use.
Did you look at the table "Monster Cohorts" in the Bestiary? It suggests an erinyes is the equivalent of a 16th level cohort.
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As for which creature, I'm mostly considering an Erinyes, one of my all time favorites, and one from the provided list. Even if I do go with that one, I would still like to have a fairly standardized formula for the others for future use.Did you look at the table "Monster Cohorts" in the Bestiary? It suggests an erinyes is the equivalent of a 16th level cohort.
Heh ... he actually mentions right in the bit of his post you quoted above that he does know it's on the table already ...
Heh ... he actually mentions right in the bit of his post you quoted above that he does know it's on the table already ...As for which creature, I'm mostly considering an Erinyes, one of my all time favorites, and one from the provided list. Even if I do go with that one, I would still like to have a fairly standardized formula for the others for future use.Did you look at the table "Monster Cohorts" in the Bestiary? It suggests an erinyes is the equivalent of a 16th level cohort.
Then why is he asking if the ECL is equal to the CR? It's clearly not.
To wit: "A monster cohort gains experience points as if it were a character of its cohort level, and when it gains enough XP to advance a level, it should generally gain a key class level (fighter is often the best choice for most cohorts)."
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Heh ... he actually mentions right in the bit of his post you quoted above that he does know it's on the table already ...As for which creature, I'm mostly considering an Erinyes, one of my all time favorites, and one from the provided list. Even if I do go with that one, I would still like to have a fairly standardized formula for the others for future use.Did you look at the table "Monster Cohorts" in the Bestiary? It suggests an erinyes is the equivalent of a 16th level cohort.Then why is he asking if the ECL is equal to the CR? It's clearly not.
To wit: "A monster cohort gains experience points as if it were a character of its cohort level, and when it gains enough XP to advance a level, it should generally gain a key class level (fighter is often the best choice for most cohorts)."
Yep, I know that (as I mentioned, I've been doing a LOT of work with this feat, the table and the numbers within for an upcoming project ...)and I'm pretty sure the OP does as well. I think he was saying that he understands that the Erinyes is indeed already listed on the Monsters as Cohorts table. He was asking how exactly one arrives at the effective character level listed for the Erinyes, as well as the others listed on the table, since there is obviously not a one to one, straightforward formula evident. He says he'd like to know in case he instead decides on a creature not on listed in the table as well as for the future.
That's actually why I gave my observations earlier in the thread on the apparent theory behind those effective character levels when applied to the Leadership feat.
It's cool though - I could have misread his original post.
Unless I'm greatly misunderstanding that point. But honestly, an Erinyes with no character lvs or any other form of enhancement would stand very little chance against any creature that the party would encounter at 16th level, much less 18th and they don't possess many abilities that are useful outside of combat, so if that is indeed their ECL as a cohort, I fear that they would be next to useless, as would nearly everything else on that list at their appointed levels.
I agree; a bog-standard erinyes would be an almost useless cohort for an 18th level character, and yet I think that's what the rules say. :-/
Perhaps say you can't get an Erinyes until 18th level, but at that point it is gained as a 16th level cohort built by the monsters as PCs rules.
Perhaps say you can't get an Erinyes until 18th level, but at that point it is gained as a 16th level cohort built by the monsters as PCs rules.
I doubt it, considering what it says about a young dragon: "A young dragon's effective cohort level equals its CR + 8."
So a young white dragon has a CR of 6, and thus it has an effective cohort level of 14. If it were using the monsters as PCs rules, it would have 8 levels in a PC class (fighter, say). But by the CR rules, that means that it would now have a CR of 14 (CR 6 + 8 "key" levels). But that means that it would have an effective cohort level of 22 (etc., etc.).
Bother. I suppose it comes down to: Don't use monster cohorts.
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Get yourself a succubus cohort for that Profane Gift. You know you want to. Yes, nothing at all could go wrong...
Oh come now. Don't you think you could be even more violent with a +2 bonus to strength?
Here is a post that James did comment on regarding this topic:
Questions about Monster Cohorts
Dont know if this helps. Im still trying to figure it out and then how to lvl them up on top of it as well. I think its all going to come down to what the Gm will/wont allow
Looks like someone necroed a necroed thread.
Check out my thread for some math based results for determining the effective cohort level. It also has updates and links for leadership and cohort lists.
/cevah