Low Magic Is Just The Beginning


Homebrew and House Rules


So I've been reading several threads about Low-Magic Settings, and it got me thinking about one of the pet projects lurking in the back of my mind, and I've decided maybe this would be a good time to bring it up and see if anyone has any thoughts on it.

What I'm considering is a Low-ADVENTURER setting.

It's become almost axiomatic in most fantasy games with which I am familiar, to the point that it's frequently lampooned, even by afficionados, that most fantasy worlds are pockmarked with ancient ruins, dungeons, monster lairs, and various and sundry other scary-but-potentially-profitable "secret" places, that the landscape between said locoations is lousy with monsters, villains, demons, a laundry list of horrors guarding the treaures, and that said worlds are also crawling with bands of adventurers intent on finding those hoards amd fighting those hordes, all in the name of bringing back the booty. This leads to adventuring, and outfitting adventurers, being one of the chief industries of most fantasy world economies.

The problem with this is that not only does it approach silly to the point that only a quantum physicist can tell the difference, but it, at least in my mind, greatly diminishes the "specialness" of the PC's. I was introduced to the fantasy genre through fiction, not through gaming, and so my concept of a really special hero is a mundane person being thrust into dire events and accomplishing things greater than themselves.

So what I want is to develop a setting much more like dark ages myth -- where brave heroes are few and far between, where the treasure in an ancient ruin is the goal of the whole adventure, not just another step in the process, and where minor monsters and wild beasts may roam the countryside, but BBEG's are fewer, farther between, more epic -- a single dragon may be feared across most of an entire continent, and the region where it dwells a place few people go, and from which fewer still return. A place where other than feudal armies, and well-organized caravans, few people leave the safety of their home fiefdom, and just by setting out as a first level heroic character, you are already on the path of having an edda recited about you.

Here are a few of the ideas I've had about how the setting would change the mechanics of character creation and development, and vice versa:

Magic users would be extremely rare in such a setting, and highly feared. PC's would have access to all the standard magic using classes, but Wizards and anyone else who relies on spellbooks would have one disadvantage: They would be far less likely to find an outside source of spells -- there just wouldn't be that many spellbooks or scrolls other than their own out there. They'd still get new spells at each level, I can hand-wave that by saying they developed the spell on their own, like a mathematician coming up with a new equation.

By the same token there wouldn't be magic shops in every town, scrolls and potions and wands and magic items are very rare indeed.

Except for professional men-at-arms and the nobility, almost noone would have access to martial weapons, let alone exotic -- the labor and materials make them prohibitively expensive for most people. PC's may start the game with one martial weapon, except for Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, Rangers, and Rogues, who may start with either two martial or one exotic weapon. This is explained as somehting they inherited, or earned for previous service in an army. As the game progresses, finding replacement weapons or getting weapons repaired would become incresingly difficult.

That's all I have so far, any other thoughts?


It sounds like fun, but you'll have your work cut out for you. Depending on the group, much of d&d's appeal is the flashy items, magic powers, and exotic enemies. Removing so much of that will be pretty trying for players unless you can make the grittier, less flashy encounters and environment compelling.

Amusingly enough, the notion of heroic rarity is actually the basic assumption of the game. If you look at npc level distributions for settlements, the high-level characters represent less than a single percentage of the populace. If it doesn't seem like that to the PCs, it's because they're consistently tangling with the mightiest foes they can find (at least, that's how a good GM would run things).

I try to run my campaigns in this fashion. You start at low levels, magic is genuinely rare, and your foes are mundane - wolves at night, goblins in the henhouse, a gang of street thugs. As they get up towards middle levels, say 6+, you start introducing/allowing the more exotic magic, and the enemies diversify to suit - a wrathful treant, a succubus mob boss, dragons. You get the gist. The thing to address is that low-magic human adventuring capacity pretty much tops out around level 5. One guy might be able to take on a grizzly bear, or 4-5 unskilled swordsmen, but that's the peak of conventional ability - going beyond requires both magical heroes, and magical foes.

Thus, the biggest trouble I expect you'll encounter is finding decent, logical fights for the party. A level 1 group expects to fight wolves and mooks, but what happens when they're reaching level 7-8 and you run out of 'normal' monsters? Having the party repeatedly encounter bunches high-level npcs actually works against the theme you're going for, because each bout diminishes the pc's sense of heroic isolation.


As the prior poster pointed out, Pathfinder presumes particular preponderances of personal magic items. (Including a phylactery of alliteration, apparently...)

You may be better off using a different game engine for this type of game.

I've run this kind of setup in GURPS 3rd edition to great success, both in their Yrth setting (Caithness Civil War) and in historical play (set in the Third Crusade with cameos by Richard Lionheart and Saladin).

I am running a game built on similar premises with D6 Dramatics as a playtest.

The D6 Dramatics Pitch looks like this:

===

Campaign Themes
Bronze Age Fantasy, Pirates!, Lovecraftian Post Apocalypse
Realism Level: Heroic
System: D6 Dramatics (beta test)
Pitch: Before your grandfather's grandfather, there was only one moon in the sky, Gods imbued mortals with Power, and vied amongst themselves for their own reasons.
Pantheons strove, armies marched across the land, and the Gods gave gifts of armor and swords and more that were beyond the ability of men to make. Either through the appeals of men, or a simple desire for more power, a rift between this world and the next was opened, and the Drowned God arose from the sea, terrible and inhuman, incomprehensible and implacable in its uncaring contempt for Men.
The Gods united, though not without bickering. The battles were long and contested, and even during them, the Pantheons fought one another. It was an age of miracles. It was an age of disasters. Aerun clove the moon, creating the Dawn Belt, sending skyfire down onto the Risen City, and other places throughout the world; even that was not enough, as darkness rose, and gods sacrificed Men, and eventually each other, to seal the chasm. The seas rose, the floods came, and entire cities were lost. The riven moon creates strange tides, and shooting stars fall yet.
Most of those who held the God's favors are long since dead; where once we strove with Heaven's blessing, we cower and cringe and scurry, like rats in the granary.
But this need not be so. The sages say that a confluence of tides will bring the city of Tolaru-Ro back to daylight for two days and a night. Are you brave enough to seek out what was once lost?"
World Notes
No horses - there are oxen and cattle, but no horses. Infantry rule the day. Without horses and the stirrup, a lot of this can be patterned on Aegean and ancient Greek myth. Or, for that matter, from Aztec, Inca and Mayan sources.
No ironworking - everything is cast from bronze. There are steel artifacts left over from before the God War.
Divine intervention was once common, but is now virtually unheard of, save through old artifacts pre-dating the GodWar.
Magic is known, but comparatively new, and unreliable.
Most of the topography is islands, lots of islands, some newly formed from skyfire falling into the ocean and raising up craters.

There is PLENTY of opportunity to create a strange new culture on an abandoned island for the players to find and explore. Most power is maritime power, and timber (for building ships) is a commodity wars are fought over.
The top level premise is that a series of pantheons (Celestial, Storm, Sea) vied for human worshippers, meddling in the affairs of kings. One of them summoned Cthulhu, thinking that it would give them an advantage against the others, and All Hell Broke Loose.
One of the deities, Aerun, attempted to stop Cthulhu by bombarding R'lyeh with fragments of the moon. He partially succeeded, but melted the ice at the top of the world, flooding the entire planet...and there's now four "moons" that are slowly reforming as spheres, and a ring of fragments that still fall regularly. Even the Gods fell in a holding action, but not before Cthulhu was put to rest.
Civilization fell, and if the Gods are there at all, they do not answer. Man is left to his own devices, in a world of pirate kingdoms and city states, with periodic plundering of drowned cities revealed by strange tides, and disasters from rocks falling from the sky.
Characters may start out as slaves captured on a slaver's ship that got storm-fouled.
There are political machinations aplenty, the chance to leap from trireme to trireme clad in a bronze breast plate, wielding a spear tipped with Godmetal, carve a kingdom out of the chaos, and try to build the political influence to make it last longer than your lifetime.
There are also the mysteries of what happened during the GodWar, artifacts from the GodWar (some of them may drive men mad) and more.
Character Creation
If there are non-human races, it will be up to the players to suggest them and create their culture. Certainly, the world has potential for mer-creatures and more.
Character building starts with the following:
1) Pick three things that are noticeable about your character. I'm frickin' tired of "Uh. 5'10", 160 pounds, and a rogue." *grin*
2) Pick two people your character cares about - who aren't fellow PCs - who would do something useful for your character.
3) Pick one person who could do something useful for your character but dislikes them.
4) Pick a problem your character is driven to solve.
5) Tell me a little bit about the society your character comes from; strange cultural bits, oddments of religion, anything to make it clear your character is "from somewhere" and didn't just appear in the middle of the campaign world with all the explanation of a fart.
There are four major city states; you don't have to be from any of them, but they're going to be the main political drivers for the game.
Tal-Melos: Ruled by the dynasty of Declemos, Tal-Melos is renowned for its heavy infantry, and its willingness to use them to acquire slaves for its silver and copper mines from its neighbors. Declemene dynasts, by preference, tend to marry cousins from lesser branches of the family, and marrying brother to sister is not unheard of. (Think Sparta with some of the dynastic feuds of ancient Egypt).
Arcorea: A democracy of landholding men, Arcorea is a wealthy trading city with decent farmland and a good harbor. It has recently been dealing with strife with Tal-Melos; Tal-Melos is sending slavers to raid the outlying islands of Arcorea, Arcorea has been issuing letters of Marque and Reprisal, though the fractuous nature of a pure democracy means its policy is fickle. Arcorea narrowly voted down installing a Tyrant for two years to deal with Tal-Melosian slavers. (Think a mixture of Athens and England during the era of the Spanish Main, but before either ruled the waves of their respective era.)
Xebes: A theocratic state of meritocratic scholars, Xebes is ruled by the God King Lemnos, who was a general during the GodWar, more than a century ago. He was granted the gift of immortality...but not eternal youth. His youth is maintained by a blood magic ritual that happens when certain portents rise in the sky. This ritual is the highlight of a series of games - where the winners gain great wealth, and the losers are sacrificed for Lemnos' youth. (Think Aztecs supported by Confucian bureaucracy.)
Ethaia: The citadel of Ethaia has never fallen to an outside force, and is reputed to have several relics of the GodWar all in working order, maintaining its defenses. Ethaiaese nobles are aloof and disdain outsiders, and hire mercenaries to protect their interests overseas. The Ethaiaese navy is professional, and the top naval power in the Drowned Realms. Maintaining the Ethaiaese Navy has stripped most of the usable timber from the island of the same name, and Ethaia will literally go to war over more timber. (Think of Japan crossed with Melnibone from the works of Michaal Moorcock.)
Other Places: There are countless little islands that (for the most part) wish they'd be left alone by the Big Four; most can have nearly any pseudo-classical "bronze-age" culture you can imagine, and I encourage you to write up a one paragraph summary, including how many days travel you are from one of the big four.
If you have a cool idea for another city-state on the scale of the Big Four, feel free to suggest it. I am perfectly happy to extend the map to give you guys an oar in defining the setting


I know this isn't going to go down well with some people, but I have to ask:

How do you maintain balance between casters and non-casters when casters have access to their full magic abilities but non-casters don't have access to as many magic items as the game normally assumes?


Since you're campaign doesn't have a lot of adventurer's what you could do (if you're using point buy) is start the characters with a 15 point buy (or lower if you feel inclined) and then possibly change the levels you get a bonus to 2 or 3 levels and possibly limit it to something like you can only put a bonus in 1 ability score every other time you gain a bonus. So if you went with every 2 levels and someone put their bonus at 2nd in dex they couldn't do it again until 6th. That's just a thought not sure how it would work out.


One other minor note: Wizards might be nigh-impossible to find and equally difficult to play. With spellbooks that will grow almost entirely from the 2 spells they gain each level, their primary spellcasting schtick-versatility-gets thrown out the window. Other spellcasters wouldn't be so hampered. You might incorporate that into your world-say that wizardry is very rare because you're in a younger world, where people are just figuring it out. Some of the notes from the history of the Scarred Lands would describe this to a degree.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

I know this isn't going to go down well with some people, but I have to ask:

How do you maintain balance between casters and non-casters when casters have access to their full magic abilities but non-casters don't have access to as many magic items as the game normally assumes?

I think that's the point of having few spells available, at least for wizards. You're right, though, because that doesn't help with sorcerors, druids, or clerics.


"Sounds fun. I'll play a Druid."

This here is your problem. I have run historic campaigns, and what you really need to do is remove the spellcasting classes entirely and replace them with weaker casting but stronger fighting classes.

For instance: the only casters are Adepts, they get 3/4 BAB and can cast in medium armor without penalty.

This may not be too true of the Wiz, since they will be very limited in spells, just like the Sor (though I would recommend ex-ing the Sor to limit the overlap that would then exist). However, it is especially true for the Cleric and the Druid, since they gain access to their entire spell list.

Another change for them would be to limit them in spells as well. Probably to the Wiz progression, OR limit them to just Domain spells (so the Druid with the AC get's no spells).

And beware the Monk. I know, that sounds silly, but with access to weapons and armor limited, the less equipment dependant classes will enjoy a bit of an advantage. With non-core feat access, the Monk could actually become a compariative powerhouse.

And watch out for having too many non-combat encounters. I played in an urban campaign where diplomacy, sneakiness, and subtilty were queen. As an illusionist, I was ok, but the combat cleric might as well not have shown up for 2/3 of the adventure.


Also the product Legends of Sorcery has low-magic setting classes: they receive up to level 4 spells at 20th level, and though they do it by a different spellcasting system I'm sure you could strip that out and spot-weld in a ranger/paladin-like vancian progression. The class features aside from magic should be worth the look.


SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

I know this isn't going to go down well with some people, but I have to ask:

How do you maintain balance between casters and non-casters when casters have access to their full magic abilities but non-casters don't have access to as many magic items as the game normally assumes?

I think you can still include better weaponry and armor, giving the magical bonuses, but imply that it comes from better materials (Damascus steel) and workmanship, particularly gifted craftsmen or fey influences, rather than flashy magic. You can still give out the higher plusses, relatively subtle magical effects like bane, ghost touch, and keen.

I've toyed with similar ideas including making basic +1 stuff fairly cheap, just about to the point of making them good-luck trinkets or blessed items that actually have a minor effect, but making anything over that substantially more expensive.


Mirror, Mirror wrote:
And beware the Monk. I know, that sounds silly, but with access to weapons and armor limited, the less equipment dependant classes will enjoy a bit of an advantage. With non-core feat access, the Monk could actually become a compariative powerhouse.

As much as I like the Monk class, for this setting I'd almost get rid of it. They're an eastern class in a western world type setting and with the way you described things, why would Shoalin Monk be in the Shire or Bree? I mean a Ranger is strange enough to them. Sorry I had to use that as an example.

Sovereign Court

Sounds like a fine idea to me. I've been wanting a whole lot less cinematic in my games for a while now.

Low magic without just replacing all the magic with exactly the same thing just called something else sounds fine. (The whole, no magic swords in the world but all the swords you wield get like +X to hit and damage as you level up, and maybe can be holy and keen too. AKA no difference at all.)


A possible solution for the power boost that a divine spellcaster would get in this kind of setting would be to treat them like wizards. They have the potential to learn all of the prayers of their religion, but they really only know a few specific ones (reflecting their sect's priorities, perhaps). They would automatically learn the spells of their domains as they gain levels, but they would have to research the other prayers. This also makes the choice of domain MUCH more important.


This sounds like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay..and therein lies all of the fluff you need to play ;)

Go heavy on the "professions" skill.

BTW, here is my wfrp 4e campaign fluff (and you'll also find a CONAN set up that is low magic):

http://gallery.rptools.net/v/contrib/emirikol7/?g2_page=2

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

AdAstraGames wrote:
(Including a phylactery of alliteration, apparently...)

Amulet of alliteration.


I would consider the following ideas, which might give you the feel you're looking for without coming up with lots of house rules:

1) Eliminate magic shops and the sale of magic items in general as a market. Individuals who posses magic items are loathe to sell them unless they get something better or more desireable in return.

2) Make the manufacture of magical items difficult and time consuming. The old fallback of needing to obtain rare ingredients which simply cannot easily be bought will help. Perhaps potions and scrolls, and even other single use items aren't hard to make, but permanent ones are.

3) Eliminate Stat boosting items for the most part.

4) Keep ability score generation on the conservative side (such as 15 point buy, or the standard 4d6 method).

5) Enforce the use of spell components. In a campaign that emphasizes mundane items, this should fit nicely. Instead of hand-waiving spell components, make their acquisition important. If the wizard doesn't have any bat guanno left, he can't cast fireball. Alternatively, you can come up with more exotic/costly components for spells that aren't easily obtained, yet at the same time, not too difficult either.

6) End your campaigns around the mid-levels (9th-12th), before casters get access to the really high level spells.

All these ideas serve to put the control of magic back into your hands. You can choose to hand out as much magical treasure as you wish, without worrying about players creating or buying their own. Likewise, you aren't redesigning the casting classes, instead reigning them in with the tracking of spell components and not allowing free access to items which dramatically boost their spell power (stat boosting items, metamagic items) and spells per day (wands, and such). Curbing a caster's ability to customize their own magical equipment - at discount no less - (item creation feats) is a big control for you.

EDIT: One other thing to consider is looking at spells on a case-by-case basis. If going for a gritty mundane oriented campaign is what you're after, certain spells that trivialize mundane hazards, or the abilities of non-casters should at least be looked at. Create Water for instance comes to mind. If you want to emphasize survial through mundane means, a spell like this really puts a damper on it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
anthony Valente wrote:

I would consider the following ideas, which might give you the feel you're looking for without coming up with lots of house rules:

>>snip<<

5) Enforce the use of spell components. In a campaign that emphasizes mundane items, this should fit nicely. Instead of hand-waiving spell components, make their acquisition important. If the wizard doesn't have any bat guanno left, he can't cast fireball. Alternatively, you can come up with more exotic/costly components for spells that aren't easily obtained, yet at the same time, not too difficult either.

>>snip<<

Keep in mind, though, that if you do something like that you're going to have to deal with the wizard [1] haring off after spell components, asking how much bat guano s/he can get out of a particular cave, getting silver pieces and filing them down, etc. You may want something like that in your game--I don't know--but you should know going in how you're going to handle it (as well as questions about the amount of a particular material component needed, when it isn't specified in the spell description).

[1] Or the rogue--"So, how much is this batsh*t worth to you, pointy-hat?"


That is difficult indeed. First you need to understand that the mechanics of the game are designed with the idea that PC's will have access to the resources necessary to defeat the foes they'll face at higher levels. Foes with damage reduction or who pretty much require magic to deal with, that sort of thing.

My personal recommendation would be to throw down for a copy of Iron Heroes. It offers a low magic system (while still provided a magic using class that's fun and interesting to play if not the powerhouse standard wizards tend to be) and makes melee combat far more fun than 'roll to hit, roll for damage' monotony it can often be. The Conan RPG offers a good system for low-magic fantasy as well. Using either and then tossing in PRPG elements like CMB and CMD is simple enough.

I know you emphasize low *adventure* rather than magic but I think either of these books can work perfectly with that while keeping the game fun for the players. Just my two bits.


My suggestion is that Dnd is not really a game designed for low magic play and that you would probably be best off trying a different system.


Coriat wrote:
My suggestion is that Dnd is not really a game designed for low magic play and that you would probably be best off trying a different system.

I disagree, but many references such as CR of monsters, suggested wealth by level and relative power by level take a fair amount of magic into account.

The mechanic works fine without magic, but the game usually assumes more than 1 fight per week (which is probably what it takes to heal from your wounds) and the DM need to know how to build proper encounters for the party.

Low magic campaigns affect the scaling of power in relation to the expected level of abilities that PC would have in a default high magic game. But if the DM is consistent in its low magic-ness, I believe that the system is just as solid as any others.

'findel


Thank you all for your input on this, I am very grateful. Sorry for the delay in responding, work and visitation time with the future gamer intervened. I want to address several of the suggestions and concerns raised, not by saying, "Well, I have all the answers", but by throwing out a couple of thoughts that have occurred to me in the interim.

First of all regarding two points: Getting my group to go for the setting, and the appropriateness of the D&D/PF system: I have been gaming with these guys for nigh onto 15 years now, and I know that getting them to try this setting and enjoy it will actually be easier than getting them, to shift to a new system.

As for the problem of scarce monsters making it boring at higher levels, two thoughts occurred to me. The first is VERY slow level progression. The second, as someone already pointed out, is making this a short-term setting, a single campaign, more like an epic movie than a TV series.

As for magic users, another thought had occurred to me: GOing back to an old 2e idea, which was making the XP required to advance a level vary by class. Not very elegant, but maybe a lot simpler than completely retooling classes. On the other hand, I may just limit certain classes by fiat. We'll see, and I'm still open to ideas.

Now to address some comments by one commenter I found particularly detailed and helpful:

anthony Valente wrote:

I would consider the following ideas, which might give you the feel you're looking for without coming up with lots of house rules:

1) Eliminate magic shops and the sale of magic items in general as a market. Individuals who posses magic items are loathe to sell them unless they get something better or more desireable in return.

Already intended to do that that.

Quote:


2) Make the manufacture of magical items difficult and time consuming. The old fallback of needing to obtain rare ingredients which simply cannot easily be bought will help. Perhaps potions and scrolls, and even other single use items aren't hard to make, but permanent ones are.[/QOUTE]

Also already planned -- and to a lesser extent, same with martial and especially exotic weapons.

Quote:


3) Eliminate Stat boosting items for the most part.

If level progress is slowed down, this may not be quite as necesssary.

Quote:
4) Keep ability score generation on the conservative side (such as 15 point buy, or the standard 4d6 method).

DEFINITELY

Quote:
5) Enforce the use of spell components. In a campaign that emphasizes mundane items, this should fit nicely. Instead of hand-waiving spell components, make their acquisition important. If the wizard doesn't have any bat guanno left, he can't cast fireball. Alternatively, you can come up with more exotic/costly components for spells that aren't easily obtained, yet at the same time, not too difficult either.

Not so sure about htis one, I see the point someone made in objection to this.

Quote:


6) End your campaigns around the mid-levels (9th-12th), before casters get access to the really high level spells.

AWESOME idea!

Quote:


All these ideas serve to put the control of magic back into your hands. You can choose to hand out as much magical treasure as you wish, without worrying about players creating or buying their own. Likewise, you aren't redesigning the casting classes, instead reigning them in with the tracking of spell components and not allowing free access to items which dramatically boost their spell power (stat boosting items, metamagic items) and spells per day (wands, and such). Curbing a caster's ability to customize their own magical equipment - at discount no less - (item creation feats) is a big control for you.

EDIT: One other thing to consider is looking at spells on a case-by-case basis. If going for a gritty...

I suspect there'll be a LOT of case-by-case going on.


I am running a campaign with a similar low-magic idea behind it, with magic leaving the world to make way for technology. Not much tech as of yet, but primitive firearms are making their way around. What I did was get rid of the sorcerer for starts. After that, everyone else who casts spells gets normal progression for 1st and 2nd level, then gets an increase every even level (as a fighter gets his bonus feats). Clerics increase their channeling based on increased spell level (capping at 5d6), and druids still get wild shape as normal, seeing as it got so railed from 3.5.
The most potent weapons are masterwork, and +1 or +2 weapons are heroic weapons like Excalibur, Perseus' Sword from CotT, etc. The players can expect items of that power around level 15.
So far, everything seems to be going well. For monsters, the PCs have fought Bandits, Soldiers, Animals, other Heroes, and a Tyrannosaurus, and things seem to be going well. these are just a few ideas to try to help.


Maeloke wrote:

It sounds like fun, but you'll have your work cut out for you. Depending on the group, much of d&d's appeal is the flashy items, magic powers, and exotic enemies. Removing so much of that will be pretty trying for players unless you can make the grittier, less flashy encounters and environment compelling.

Amusingly enough, the notion of heroic rarity is actually the basic assumption of the game. If you look at npc level distributions for settlements, the high-level characters represent less than a single percentage of the populace. If it doesn't seem like that to the PCs, it's because they're consistently tangling with the mightiest foes they can find (at least, that's how a good GM would run things).

I try to run my campaigns in this fashion. You start at low levels, magic is genuinely rare, and your foes are mundane - wolves at night, goblins in the henhouse, a gang of street thugs. As they get up towards middle levels, say 6+, you start introducing/allowing the more exotic magic, and the enemies diversify to suit - a wrathful treant, a succubus mob boss, dragons. You get the gist. The thing to address is that low-magic human adventuring capacity pretty much tops out around level 5. One guy might be able to take on a grizzly bear, or 4-5 unskilled swordsmen, but that's the peak of conventional ability - going beyond requires both magical heroes, and magical foes.

Thus, the biggest trouble I expect you'll encounter is finding decent, logical fights for the party. A level 1 group expects to fight wolves and mooks, but what happens when they're reaching level 7-8 and you run out of 'normal' monsters? Having the party repeatedly encounter bunches high-level npcs actually works against the theme you're going for, because each bout diminishes the pc's sense of heroic isolation.

sounds great. one thing i love in my games is the dm has a healing magic house rule where it only takes effect during sleep. drinking a potion in battle shouldnt cause a huge gash in your side to heal constantly. so if we want to be healed we have to wait untill it is time to rest. he almost limits the amount of health potions to non existent and nerfs them. this may sound silly but i love it. when you are adventuring you are constantly worried about the next encounter because it is verry possible one of you will go down or even die. in most rpg games you dont get that feeling of mortality because you can just down a potion and as soon as that encounter finishes you go back to full health. when you play a game where every hitpoint counts it is realy intense

Dark Archive

Although 3.5/Pathfinder allows high-magic, everything basically comes down to money.

Set up a campaign world where money is scarce and your magic-level automatically goes down.

I'm thinking about doing something similar. In my world, the economy suggests that the amount of cash you'll get by defeating a creature is:

50 x (root-2)^CR

- which basically translates to 100gp at CR2 (i.e. a level 1 character), 200gp at CR 4, 400gp at CR 6, 800gp at CR 8 and so on.

Richard


DM Doom wrote:

That is difficult indeed. First you need to understand that the mechanics of the game are designed with the idea that PC's will have access to the resources necessary to defeat the foes they'll face at higher levels. Foes with damage reduction or who pretty much require magic to deal with, that sort of thing.

My personal recommendation would be to throw down for a copy of Iron Heroes. It offers a low magic system (while still provided a magic using class that's fun and interesting to play if not the powerhouse standard wizards tend to be) and makes melee combat far more fun than 'roll to hit, roll for damage' monotony it can often be. The Conan RPG offers a good system for low-magic fantasy as well. Using either and then tossing in PRPG elements like CMB and CMD is simple enough.

I know you emphasize low *adventure* rather than magic but I think either of these books can work perfectly with that while keeping the game fun for the players. Just my two bits.

I can't comment on Iron Heroes as I've never seen the rules for that game. But I have seen several posters say the same thing you do as well as praise its value as a game in general.

However I do disagree with the part I bolded above. A GM is in total control of what he has his players face and given time and experience, will generally know what sorts of monsters will challenge his players or be too much for them to handle. So in a gritty, low-magic campaign, maybe a lot of the higher CR monsters aren't going to be compatible for the most part. But lower CR monsters in larger quantities can easily substitute in their place. I can easily envision higher level parties taking on progressively larger numbers of foes instead of progressively more powerful singular ones. Keep in mind, in such a set up, it will be very difficult to raise AC above a certain point without magic available, so lower CR monsters should still be somewhat of a threat. Not to mention the rules for for advancing lower CR creatures and downgrading higher CR creatures in the Bestiary. The game does give tools for such a campaign.


You can re-balance wizards and explain the scarcity of magic items with a single step: rule that only wizards can take magic item creation feats.

Read the abilities of your monsters carefully and don't just look at the CR, because you're operating under a different set of rules than what the CR system was based on. But you probably already knew that.

The major thing I would suggest setting-wise that I haven't already seen mentioned is to boost the DC of Knowledge checks to know something about a monster.

I'm not sure if it's exactly what you're going for, but in my current game I compensate for drastically reduced treasure with the following house rule.

Heroic Spirit:

Each level after the first, you may choose one of the following abilities. These abilities are supernatural, and represent your heroic spirit.
* +1 Enhancement bonus to Armor, Shield, or Weapon. This bonus may not exceed 1/4th of your level (round up, so at 5 you can gain +2, at 9 you can gain +3, etc). The shield bonus applies whenever you have a shield equipped, and the armor bonus applies whenever you are wearing anything. You can apply the weapon bonus to a single weapon with one minute of practice, and you may choose to purchase additional weapon bonuses (so you may have a +3 weapon and two +1 weapons).
* +4 Competence bonus to any skill. Starting at 7th level, you may purchase this bonus for a skill a second time for a total bonus of +8, and at 14th level you may purchase it a third time for a single skill for a total of +12.
* +2 Enhancement bonus to a single attribute. This bonus may not exceed +2 until level 7, and may not exceed +4 until level 14. Even after level 14, it may not exceed +6. These bonuses apply when leveling (for example, int for number of new skill points, or con for HP).
* One additional spell slot or spell per day of any level except the highest level you can cast. You may only select this ability once for every two levels you have.
* +1 Resistance bonus to saves. This bonus may not exceed 1/4th of your character level (round up, so at 5 you can gain +2, at 9 you can gain +3, etc).


Also, if you're interested in alternatives to magic weapons and armor, Dragon issue #358 has a great article entitled, "Master's Forge", detailing new item qualities for masterwork weapons and armor.


anthony Valente wrote:
Also, if you're interested in alternatives to magic weapons and armor, Dragon issue #358 has a great article entitled, "Master's Forge", detailing new item qualities for masterwork weapons and armor.

I totally agree with you. I myself am looking for thing like that in the Dragon magazine. I have the issue and looking for more thing like that. Do you know of any other book or sites that might offer similar ideas?


A low adventurer setting works a lot better if you've got a really small party---like maybe 2 actual characters with the rest buffed out by minions, cohorts, henchmen, and hirelings, most of whom would be much lower level. Seeing a full party of adventurer-grade heroes just wouldn't make much sense in such a setting. I'd also suggest you adopt a simulationist take on encounters and the like...i.e., don't bother to adjust CR, abilities, etc. Just define approximately what lives where and what it is generally doing and let the PC's decide what challenges they're willing to undertake. Hope they don't choose....poorly. But to do this you can't get your heart set on them having to fight the great dragon of the wastes, or the like. Insofar as internal balance within the party is concerned, I'd suggest giving the non-casters a more advantageous build (e.g. 10 points for full casters, 15 for bards and magus, 20 for paladin or ranger, and 25 for fighters and rogues). That'd about balance things for a game where characters typically have less than half the typical wealth by level in items.


The E6 rules might be to your liking in this kind of a campaign.


If you can find it the d20 ruleset for the song of ice and fire might be to your liking. It is a very 'realistic' fantasy setting and the adjustment of the rules really reflect that. It would give you a great basis for running a low adventuring game in any setting.


jlord wrote:
The E6 rules might be to your liking in this kind of a campaign.

+1


I think in an attempt to be more realistic you have made it unrealistic.
Never mind that the breakdown of what is a martial, simple, or exotic weapons in D&D is the definition of arbitrary.

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