Low-to-No-Magic Setting

[DraconiumX]

I've been reading a lot of posts here lately, and on the D&D forums and the GiantITP forums, and specifically I have been reading up on rules about Low-Magic settings/campaigns. Inspired by posts such as these:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573314/Low_Magic_D38;D_ Made_Fun_and_Easy_For_Everyone

and

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/communityContent/houseRules/archives/rulesForALowMagicSetting&page=1 &source=search#0

and

http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Very_Low_Magic_Setting &t=20080507120909

and

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-house-rules/131111-low-magic-campai gn-experiment.html?pp=40

I've also been inspired by a few fantasy novels I've been reading, the kind where magic is foreign and mystical but fantasy races are still very much around (Lord of the Rings springs to the mind, as well as the Iron Tower trilogy, and even the Redwall books, too) and I was thinking of running such a campaign.

Here are my ideas, and I would appreciate any suggestions or comments or whatever slings and arrows you would like to send flying my way... :-p

First of all, all of the players will start as oar-slaves on a pirate ship, a lieutenant's ship in a much larger pirating armada. (Which, I just realized, I would undoubtedly have to run ship-to-ship battles, which I have no friggin' clue how to do...but anyways) I think I'd start by having the players take 1 level in any NPC class - Warrior, Commoner, Expert, Aristocrat (but not Adept). They cannot start with any magical abilities.

The campaign would begin with one of the players suddenly being freed of his chains amidst a heated battle with another of the pirate armada, involving treachery and whatnot, and the players having to fight to stay alive and escape, and so on....

The players can only be humans, though there will be Traits and Hindrances to choose from, as well as bloodlines they can take (half-dwarf, half-orc, half-goblin, half-elf, half-gnome...half-halfling? (Would that be a quarterling???))

Firstly, to train to be anything other than just an NPC Warrior (or maybe just stick with Fighter?), they would have to find "trainers" throughout the world. There would be different levels of trainers, of which the players would have to fulfill different prerequisites (both feats and in-game achievements) to gain the favor of the trainer.

For example, to become a rogue and advance as one, you could A) talk to some pickpocket near the docks and pay him 50 gold to train you, B) speak with a famed scoundrel, pay him 75 gold and help him rescue his brother, and gain the Weapon Finesse feat, or C) gain favor with the head of the local Thieve's guild, perform tasks for him, and gain bonuses on all your thiefly skills, as well as Prestige Classes.

They cannot level up until they find one of these trainers, btw. To level up at all, they have to visit one of them.

And becoming a magic-user or having supernatural abilities would be even more difficult. Becoming a Wizard, Bard, etc...would require extensive searching and work. And to become a Sorcerer or Cleric Monk or Warlock, etc, would require luck, devotion, meditation, or pacts with higher beings (in that order). Or something like that.

Alchemical items and the like will become vastly more important, as they can be bought in stores, and many monsters will have weaknesses to certain items and alchemical substances and materials...or something like that.

Basically, Knowledge will be extremely useful for players until one of them can become a Wizard, etc.

I am going to try to find or make Pathfinder Ranger and Paladin variants that cannot use magic, and make Prcs of them that can cast spells or something? Anyone know where I can find some? Isn't there one in D&D's Unearthed Arcana? Isn't the Cavalier basically a magic-free Paladin? A knight, basically?

So, in summation, the players would start as lowly oar-slaves, newly freed after a traumatizing experience, humans with little-to-no knowledge of the outside world, and will have to struggle constantly to even kill goblins and such, suffering near-TPKs at all turns (though I'll never let them die until higher levels, but I won't let them know that). :-D

Any thoughts?

[DraconiumX]

Also, this has some great ideas for me to look at -

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-house-rules/131111-low-magic-campai gn-experiment.html?pp=40

I specifically like all of the caster's limited Spell lists, with the better, more powerful spells being 'lost lore' that the players have to discover deep within ancient ruins or in the holds of powerful beasts or in the top of an iron tower...

[BPorter]

If you're looking for more flexibility than just the Warrior class to start with, if you can find Darkness & Dread (one of Fantasy Flight Games Legends & Lairs series), it focuses heavily on low-magic games. It offers several changes to core D&D (which of course can be applied to PF) to enhance low-magic style play.

Additionally, it offers numerous "sub-classes" which are essentially 3-5 level classes expanding upon the Adept, Expert, Warrior NPC classes. I find them much more interesting than the NPC classes and they're useful as PC-quality "everyman" roles.

Once those levels are exhausted, it's assumed that the PC will multi-class into one of the standard core classes.

I picked the PDF up for $5 a while back. However, I haven't found it listed of late (although other books in the series still are), so you may be better off looking for a used hardcopy.

If you're just looking for the rules on how to make the game more low-magic in theme, much of the rules from that book are reproduced in the Horrific Fears PDF available here at the Paizo online store.

Good luck with the game!

[Rezdave]

DraconiumX wrote:

I just realized, I would undoubtedly have to run ship-to-ship battles

Actually you don't.

Historically, ship-to-ship naval combat didn't begun until the age of gunpowder and cannon. Medieval and prior naval combat was about ram-and-board tactics.

If you take magic out of the equation (no wizards casting fireballs or other long-range blasting spells nor magically enchanted siege engines) then ship-to-ship combat becomes impractical.

So basically, it's just standard D&D combat on the deck of a boat instead of a dungeon room. Otherwise it's the same.

HTH,

Rez

[Felgoroth]

So I just tried to post a pretty long comment but something happened so it didn't actually post.

Anyway the gist of it was, there are rules for ship-to-ship combat in Stormwrack if the ships are using ballistas, catapults, etc. I also have rules for cannons as I'm running a renaissance/steampunk-esque type game in a world made up of a bunch of small islands and I run ship combat every once in a while to stir things up a little but, like Rezdave said though, most of it is ram-and-board tactics (which players seem to enjoy more anyway). If you need help with that I can give an overview of how I run it.

Complete Champion has spell-less Paladins and Rangers, they gain bonus feats at 4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th level. They both have to choose from a specific list given in the book, the Rangers are based off it's Combat Style and the Paladins pretty much some Power Attack type feats and some other feats that have to do with their Smite ability (I'd probably add Extra Mercy from the Pathfinder PHB).

The Cavalier isn't really a spell-less Paladin, they're more of a Mounted (melee) Combat specialist. They target one opponent and gain a bonus to damage (1d6 per 2 levels or something like that) and they take a penalty to AC against all other opponents. They're interesting to play but slightly hard if you're not familiar with mounted combat (which most of their abilities deal with).

[MortonStromgal]

I think your making it too complicated. I would

A. Use a different system

or

B. Just limit the # of levels one can take in spell casting classes.

[Rezdave]

DraconiumX wrote:

I'd start by having the players take 1 level in any NPC class ... but not Adept

Adept is so weak, I don't see allowing it even at 1st level a major issue.

MortonStromgal wrote:

B. Just limit the # of levels one can take in spell casting classes.

Rather than limit Class Levels in spellcasting classes, I'd either limit classes to Adept (making all other classes spell-less) or else limit Spell Levels available.

For example, you could allow Wizards to progress normally in terms of CL and Spells-per-Day, but then take out all spells above 3rd level. That may sound extreme, but being able to cast two dozen CL9 magic missiles a day isn't bad damage output, especially when you consider that in a low-magic setting the Fighters will have to be doing without all their cool magic weapons, armor and buffs that keep up their damage-output.

Should balance enough to keep everyone happy.

R.

[Marc Radle]

To the original poster ...

First, I like the idea. I tend to prefer low magic, grittier games.

Also, have you checked out Kobold Quarterly issue 11? I have it on pretty good authority there is a spell-less version of the Pathfinder ranger that would fit in very all with your campaign ;)

[Lazurin Arborlon]

I recomend lifting multiclassing rules..this way if a player can only get a handful of levels of a casting class or a smattering of rougue he isnt stuck not leveling with his party until he finds training...or at least has the option to grab a fighter level if he is impatient.

[DraconiumX]

BPorter wrote:

If you're looking for more flexibility than just the Warrior class to start with, if you can find Darkness & Dread (one of Fantasy Flight Games Legends & Lairs series), it focuses heavily on low-magic games. It offers several changes to core D&D (which of course can be applied to PF) to enhance low-magic style play.

Additionally, it offers numerous "sub-classes" which are essentially 3-5 level classes expanding upon the Adept, Expert, Warrior NPC classes. I find them much more interesting than the NPC classes and they're useful as PC-quality "everyman" roles.

Once those levels are exhausted, it's assumed that the PC will multi-class into one of the standard core classes.

I picked the PDF up for $5 a while back. However, I haven't found it listed of late (although other books in the series still are), so you may be better off looking for a used hardcopy.

If you're just looking for the rules on how to make the game more low-magic in theme, much of the rules from that book are reproduced in the Horrific Fears PDF available here at the Paizo online store.

Good luck with the game!

Sweet! Any idea where I can find a PDF of Darkness & Dread? I've been looking, and no such luck. I like the idea of the 're-vamped' NPC classes; I'll definitely want to use that....gratzi!

[DraconiumX]

Felgoroth wrote:

So I just tried to post a pretty long comment but something happened so it didn't actually post.

Anyway the gist of it was, there are rules for ship-to-ship combat in Stormwrack if the ships are using ballistas, catapults, etc. I also have rules for cannons as I'm running a renaissance/steampunk-esque type game in a world made up of a bunch of small islands and I run ship combat every once in a while to stir things up a little but, like Rezdave said though, most of it is ram-and-board tactics (which players seem to enjoy more anyway). If you need help with that I can give an overview of how I run it.

Complete Champion has spell-less Paladins and Rangers, they gain bonus feats at 4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th level. They both have to choose from a specific list given in the book, the Rangers are based off it's Combat Style and the Paladins pretty much some Power Attack type feats and some other feats that have to do with their Smite ability (I'd probably add Extra Mercy from the Pathfinder PHB)

Good point on the ship battles...you, too, Rezdave. Yeah, it shouldn't be nearly as complicated as I previously thought. I panicked there for a moment earlier when I thought of having to run these kind of battles when I first posted, but yeah, I'm sure there will be much boarding of the other's ship.

And I never heard of Complete Champion...was that released shortly before 4th Edition came out, or something? I could have sworn I had all the "Complete..." D&D books...it does sound quite appropriate, that's for sure.

[DraconiumX]

MortonStromgal wrote:

I think your making it too complicated. I would

A. Use a different system

or

B. Just limit the # of levels one can take in spell casting classes.

Eh, I'd rather not use a different system...that would require getting new books and familiarizing myself and my players to a whole new system; I'm more the type to tweak and fiddle with what I already have...and the second option doesn't sound appealing. Not at all what I want to do; I don't want to limit their power, per se, as much as make it an actual challenge to get that kind of power; make them quest and actively search out ways of getting more powerful, seeking those who have the power to help them or ancient scrolls to teach them, etc etc...

[Jeremy Becker]

Kobold Quarterly had a spell-less ranger variant that was pathfinder approved, I think it was issue 11. They gained some sneak attack damage and something similar to rogue talents.

[Eyolf The Wild Commoner]

Question, ever tried an E6 game? Great for realism and low-magic. Aside from that, I have a Masterwork system that is PERFECT for a low-to-no magic game.

Check out my homebrew thread. Should be around here or in the archives somewhere. Pretty sure you can check my posts or topics or something though in my profile.

or my wishlist, not sure if you can check that.

[Felgoroth]

DraconiumX wrote:

Good point on the ship battles...you, too, Rezdave. Yeah, it shouldn't be nearly as complicated as I previously thought. I panicked there for a moment earlier when I thought of having to run these kind of battles when I first posted, but yeah, I'm sure there will be much boarding of the other's ship.
And I never heard of Complete Champion...was that released shortly before 4th Edition came out, or something? I could have sworn I had all the "Complete..." D&D books...it does sound quite appropriate, that's for sure.

It came out in May 2007 (according to the page with all the credits and such). I'm not sure when 4E came out though as I don't play it. I can post the spell-less Ranger and Paladin if you'd like (well a more descriptive version than I did before).

[hogarth]

Iron Heroes d20 is another low-magic D&D variant you might find useful.