Twig - what you're missing is that, at least under my feat, you only get full dex to damage - never 1.5, and never 2x, like you do with strength.
A character with 16 (+2) dex and 10 strength, and a character with 14(+2) strength and 14 dex (higher stats cost drastically more then multiple lower ones. Assuming a fighter who doesn't want to dump dexterity due to, in your own admittance, how much it adds.
Character 1 has +4 initiative, +4 AC, does 4 damage, and has 7 associated skills
Character 2 has +2 initiative, +2 AC, does 6 damage, and has 2 associated skills...and has two more feats, so let's add Power Attack, to make it 9 damage, and now that's another open feat. Character 2 could take Improved Initiative to actually beat the initiative of character 1, they could take weapon focus to lose the -1 to hit from Power Attack, etc, etc.
Now let's assume strength isn't a dump stat - as I've been saying - and we want power attack. Both characters have 14+2/14 in their related stats.
Character 1 has +3 initiative, +3 AC, and does 6 damage
Character 2 has +2 initiative, +2 AC, and...still does 9 damage.
"But Cirno," you say, "Surely as both the strongest and smartest in all of Gensokyo, you know that a dex build will be duel wielding!" Indeed, let's factor that in! Character 1 is now equipped with kukris. Character 2 is now equipped with a falchion. They're both fighters, so crit chance is important.
Character 1 attacks twice, awesome! He does 14 average damage but has -2 attack :O
Character 2 attacks only once, oh no! He does 14 average damage and has no -2 attack, and has three more feats then character 1 has.
Getting 2x strength to damage is a big deal. Even here when we don't dump strength, the dexterity heavy character is just keeping even with the two hander, and that's while suffering the -2 attack from TWF and devouring three feats. Also note that if we didn't give a damn about crit chance, the THF would actually do even better.
Just a quick post for Dabbler - they NEVER get an AC "advantage" over the straight fighters. EVER.
I know. That's why I came up with Improved Combat Expertise as a way of boosting AC again. I know duelist is a weak option, but for the swashbuckler ideal it is all that there is.
Add the feats I suggested to the duelist and it might just start to look good.
Just a quick post for Dabbler - they NEVER get an AC "advantage" over the straight fighters. EVER.I know. That's why I came up with Improved Combat Expertise as a way of boosting AC again. I know duelist is a weak option, but for the swashbuckler ideal it is all that there is.
Add the feats I suggested to the duelist and it might just start to look good.
It's a pretty good feat, honestly.
Still, it'd be a pretty good feat better used with a straight Fighter class over a Duelist PrC combo honestly, though.
:shrugs:
Just saying. ;-)
@Prof: Don't forget that in the above scenario, the non-dex fighter can use his Falchion and an unused feat for say ... Vital Strike to out-damage the 2-wpn guy anyway ... :-D
I don't think duelist is bad, I think it's just a big eh.
I've thought a bit on how to tweak them, so hey, what the hell, a few ideas.
1)Keep the duelist mobile:
a) Give them that exceedingly rare ability to full attack after a move action.
b) Let them parry as if they took a full round attack after a move action
c) x/day or in some other limited fashion, allow them to take a move action as a swift action
d) Let them parry with an offhand weapon after taking a move action? This one might be what I go with.
2) Reward mobility
a) Bonus (of some sort) to acrobats maybe?
b) Bonuses to attack and/or damage and/or AC after movement (scout style stuff, I suppose?)
c) Bonuses to the vital strike chain
3) DASHING!
a) A bonus to something based on charisma. I got nuthin' here
b) A bonus to diplomacy or bluff maybe? Or a diplomacy or bluff related activity?
So yeah. I'd need to really dig in and tweak with stuff before I can get a good idea on what I'd houserule. It's not that the duelist is a bad choice, it's just kinda eh. Parry is a cool idea, it just won't come up that often, unless (like me) you allow for off-hand weapon parrying.The bonuses to AoO are good, but you won't see them much since you're likely standing still to full attack.
It's a lot better then the 3.5 duelist though :3
True, but the average is not wild. A 20th level monk is doing 2d10, average 11. A 20th level fighter can be dishing out a lot more than that with the same chance to hit - with a greatsword and power attack, you are looking at an average of 25 damage per hit before you factor in strength and most importantly bonus magical damage. A +5 greatsword with +2d6 damage from one source or another is 37 per hit, with a better chance to hit than the monk (yes, you can get an amulet of mighty fists ... but they don't get very good and they cost the earth). Now on a target with DR20, your fighter is still hurting it and your monk ... isn't, regardless of how many hits he gets.
Now if your dex-based monk could add in some benefit from that dex, at level 20 he could increase his average respectably. It won't catch him up to the fighter, but can certainly help him along.
I did some math, please correct me if I am wrong. I am assuming 28 Str 20 Dex for the Fighter and the reverse for the Monk. That's base 16 +2 racial +4 levels +6 enhancement for the primary and base 14 +6 enhancement for the secondary. Both have a 20 Wis, 14 base +6 enhancement. Both with +5 enhancement bonus to Weapons and Saves (I gave the Fighter Iron Will). Armor is pretty strait forward as well.
Human Fighter:
To hit: +34/+29/+24/+19 (20 BAB +5 enhancement +9 Str +2 Weapon Focus +4 Weapon Training -6 Power Attack)
Damage: 51 (7 +5 enhancement +13 Str +18 Power Attack +4 Weapon Specialization +4 Weapon Training)
AC: 40 (10 +14 armor +5 Dex +5 deflection +5 natural armor +1 insight)
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +16, Will +18
Elven Monk:
To hit: +33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18 (20 BAB +5 enhancement +9 Dex +1 Weapon Focus -2 Flurry of Blows)
Damage: 21 (11 +5 enhancement +5 Str)
AC: 43 (10 +8 armor +9 Dex +5 Monk +5 Wis +5 deflection +1 insight)
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +26, Will +22
Hmmm... So the Fighter is hitting for 51 a hit and the Monk is hitting for only 21. Of course the Monk is hitting about twice as often, so for every 51 the Fighter is doing the Monk is doing 42. So two hits is 102 vs. 84 or three hits is 153 vs. 126. The last attack for both probably won't hit very often. This tells me that the Fighter is AWESOME! But, of course, we already knew that. Is the Monk non-viable? I don't think so.
I don't think duelist is bad, I think it's just a big eh.
...
It's a lot better then the 3.5 duelist though :3
I agree w/the improvements, but man ... compared to all other things PF, it's really, really underwhelming (it doesn't help that swashbuckling-types are amongst my favorite concepts ever).
You know - lot of nice stuff up there. Forget revising the Duelist - maybe it's time for a NEW PrC. Call it the "Swashbuckler" or something.
:-D
True, but the average is not wild. A 20th level monk is doing 2d10, average 11. A 20th level fighter can be dishing out a lot more than that with the same chance to hit - with a greatsword and power attack, you are looking at an average of 25 damage per hit before you factor in strength and most importantly bonus magical damage. A +5 greatsword with +2d6 damage from one source or another is 37 per hit, with a better chance to hit than the monk (yes, you can get an amulet of mighty fists ... but they don't get very good and they cost the earth). Now on a target with DR20, your fighter is still hurting it and your monk ... isn't, regardless of how many hits he gets.
Now if your dex-based monk could add in some benefit from that dex, at level 20 he could increase his average respectably. It won't catch him up to the fighter, but can certainly help him along.
I did some math, please correct me if I am wrong. I am assuming 28 Str 20 Dex for the Fighter and the reverse for the Monk. That's base 16 +2 racial +4 levels +6 enhancement for the primary and base 14 +6 enhancement for the secondary. Both have a 20 Wis, 14 base +6 enhancement. Both with +5 enhancement bonus to Weapons and Saves (I gave the Fighter Iron Will). Armor is pretty strait forward as well.
Human Fighter:
To hit: +34/+29/+24/+19 (20 BAB +5 enhancement +9 Str +2 Weapon Focus +4 Weapon Training -6 Power Attack)
Damage: 51 (7 +5 enhancement +13 Str +18 Power Attack +4 Weapon Specialization +4 Weapon Training)
AC: 40 (10 +14 armor +5 Dex +5 deflection +5 natural armor +1 insight)
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +16, Will +18Elven Monk:
To hit: +33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18 (20 BAB +5 enhancement +9 Dex +1 Weapon Focus -2 Flurry of Blows)
Damage: 21 (11 +5 enhancement +5 Str)
AC: 43 (10 +8 armor +9 Dex +5 Monk +5 Wis +5 deflection +1 insight)
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +26, Will +22Hmmm... So the Fighter is hitting for 51 a hit and the Monk is hitting for only 21. Of course the Monk is hitting about twice as often, so for...
Your characters have some pretty extreme stats there.
Beyond that, the fighter most likely has his 20 (if not higher) in constitution, not wisdom, so he has better HP then the monk. The fighter also most likely has more weapon enchantments due to them costing so much less so that's more damage there. Also keep in mind that the you're adding strength wrong - with a two handed weapon it's 1.5x strength, not just 1x.
Your characters have some pretty extreme stats there.
Beyond that, the fighter most likely has his 20 (if not higher) in constitution, not wisdom, so he has better HP then the monk. The fighter also most likely has more weapon enchantments due to them costing so much less so that's more damage there. Also keep in mind that the you're adding strength wrong - with a two handed weapon it's 1.5x strength, not just 1x.
Yes, their stats are high. I didn't really work them all out, I just assigned numbers and kept them the save except for Str and Dex. I gave them both a 20 CON as well, really the Fighter would have a lower Wis and a higher Con and the Monk would probably just have a lower Con. Also the Monk would be better as a strait human. So subtract one from the Fighter's Will save and add it to Fort, subtract one from the Monk's Fort. The Fighter will have about 40 more HPs. Of course the Monk can heal himself with Wholeness of body. And take less because of his 10/Chaotic DR vs. the Fighters 5/-. And less because he has Improved Evasion. And less because he has Spell Resist 30. And is immune to Poison and Disease. And etc...
Also, Str 28 = +9 x 1.5 = +13. Which is exactly what I added.
You can beef up the Fighter all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the Monk is dishing out 100+ damage a round. If the BBEG wants to ignore the Monk and hit the Fighter, that is probably a good choice, but the Monk is going to kill him in a couple rounds.
Well, no, but you're kinda missing what I'm saying.
Monks benefit from having lots of extreme stats because they're so MAD. Fighters don't. But D&D typically doesn't allow for such extreme stats The monk is flourishing because you've put the monk in the best position.
monks are perfectly acceptable in situations we just have to remember that they are not just for fighting, also do not forget the fun of spending Ki for an extra attack at highest bab for no extra cost to bab. but yes fighters are very good at going about their name sake fighting. Monks are good at other things than just fighting or at least more things than just I walk up to you and beat you to death. They are a mix bread between the skill monkey, and the warrior types. so they will not be as good as the warrior of the group, nor as good as the rouge at sneaking and skill monkey, but they will still hold their own in both and that is what matters. Whenever we play a class we have to ask ourselves why do I play this class. Some say to deal the most damage. Others say to meet the feel of the characters, and then the rest say because I can, or because I am needed to.
I will say that for optimization yeah swash bucklers may be better played as the rouge or a more dex built fighter than the dualist, but pathfinder was built with less interest in the prestige classes, and more of the idea that a person can start as the base class and take it to level 20, ignoring my evil acts of playing the bard dragon disciple.
Also some time tomorrow if this is still going I will role up and design a dex fighter, at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, as well as a 2hd fighter, mostly for the lols. of course comparison data will be supplied (probably just role a set and then translate it into point buy for the two of them I hate using standard point buy for reasons of I role like a g-d)
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Nobody would focus on strength anymore if that was the case making strength the dump stat for EVERY class/build that wasn't using a 2HW. Any change to weapon finesse unbalances the game...I disagree.
IF this is what you're after (changing finesse to make dmg an option) we've discussed several things. Every one of which inherently limits/demands resources as much as it gives to the concept of the "agile fighter".
1) I do not believe anyone's forwarded a "replace str" entirely rule yet. At least not w/out being immediately reminded about the place of str in damage. At present I believe it's been "in addition to" that is the favorite, so dump str IF you want, but it'll still come back and affect your damage output in the end. (ie: -2 str and +4 dex = +2 dmg in total).
2) Most of us have also wanted to limit the damage targets that it applies to. Ie: no anatomy of note = no bonus dex damage.
3) Feat investments. We've run the gamut here from free Finesse by default (not my favorite mind you - specifically FOR balance purposes), to upwards of 3+ feats and several BAB points BEFORE you can manage such a feat ...
How is this unbalanced exactly? You're dedicating a LOT of feats to do things the str guy can do "out of the box" with NO investment beyond equipment selection.
Case in point a few fighters, humans, w/2-hander and "agile fighter" concepts in mind ...
2-Hander, the Smasha'!
He's got 3 feats at 1st level to start. He can get power attack, and cleave - basics. Then he's got +1 for utility spending - Improved Sunder, Improved Init, etc, etc, etc lot's of stuff here.Finesser the Quick!
He's got Wpn Finesse, Improved Wpn Finesse, a Dex requesite to hit, can't *dump* str outright w/out affecting his damage output (and undermining his investment in the first place) and then there's the *possibly* 3rd feat rout to get this all done. Seriously ... he's got NONE of the options open to the 2-hander and all of his base feats are dedicated to simply making...
Strength is strength for a reason. If you want weapon finesse and extra damage, then take a class that gives you SA or precision damage (or go archery--yes you still need strength, but it's much less required than melee builds).
I just think that swapping around stuff like that risks upsetting the game. What's next? That you're super smart and you should be able to use intelligence to hit and do extra damage? Then you get a sh!t ton o skills and don't need strength OR dex (cept maybe for TWF chain).
BLUF: The rules are there for a reason. Start jackin with em and you risk upsetting the game. If you want to do it for flavor or w/e fine, but as it stands weapon finesses is viable--it does what it's supposed to do, it let's characters who want to focus on the TWF tree have the dex they need without sacrificing their ability to hit the target. They get more attacks than a 2hw build, so they're doing more damage in the long run (in theory).
Stuff
Intelligence to damage is already in game in the Duelist and, shockingly enough, it doesn't win any damage contests. It doesn't even replace strength, it just adds, and yet it still isn't enough.
I'm not really sure what to say at this point that hasn't been said. People that have used the feats have stated that there was no problem. James Jacobs said he used a feat to allow dex to damage and he didn't notice any imbalances. We've mathematically shown how a feat that gives straight dexterity to damage without any other benefits of strength such as 1.5x strength to damage doesn't unbalance things.
We've pretty much shown in every way that, no, this doesn't make strength a dump, strength is still really good, it just helps people who don't want to big a big bulky conan-alike catch up.
Your refusal to see it at this point is purposeful ignorance. We've done literally everything to show you that it's fine, and you're refusing to even look at it. Incidentally...
If you want to do it for flavor or w/e fine, but as it stands weapon finesses is viable--it does what it's supposed to do, it let's characters who want to focus on the TWF tree have the dex they need without sacrificing their ability to hit the target. They get more attacks than a 2hw build, so they're doing more damage in the long run (in theory).
This is so wrong on so many levels in every way imaginable that it hurts. I have no idea where you even get this from. Even in theory it doesn't work unless those "more attacks" have the same rate to hit and do more then half the damage of the THF build - which doesn't occur.
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@Prof-most of the TWF builds I've seen are crit-based or SA builds--they rely more on a wide crit range (or SA) to do the extra damage. More attacks gives more of a chance to crit/SA than do 2WF builds. As to your argument about the duelist, I don't have the book in front of me, but does it allow a character to have their int bonus to AC, hit, damage, etc.? What I'm getting at is that allowing other stats (which more skills rely on) take the place of to hit and can cause a total "rework" of how a class is stated and whatnot. This is my opinion, feel free to disagree with it if you want, but I just don't see the need to have dex replace strength to hit and to damage. There has to be some balance to the number of extra attacks a character is getting and the amount of damage they're dealing (aside from a paltry -2 modifier).
StuffIntelligence to damage is already in game in the Duelist and, shockingly enough, it doesn't win any damage contests. It doesn't even replace strength, it just adds, and yet it still isn't enough.
Actually, it's not. The Duelist adds 1 point of damage per level of Duelist. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.
Well, no, but you're kinda missing what I'm saying.
Monks benefit from having lots of extreme stats because they're so MAD. Fighters don't. But D&D typically doesn't allow for such extreme stats The monk is flourishing because you've put the monk in the best position.
Yes, Monks benefit more from extreme stats, but it's not as bad as you make it out.
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 10
This would be 25 points, which is the Epic Fantasy point buy numbers. The Human +2 is to Str obviously. I didn't actually work the characters out this way, but it would work. We could also do it this way.
Str 17
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8
Add an extra +5 from levels instead of +4 and you have 20 point buy. It gets harder after this.
But I'll try!
Str 17
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8
This time swap Str for Dex and Con for Wis. So the Fighter gets -1 to Init, AC, Ref Save, Will Save and attack with ranged weapons. The Monk gets -1 to damage, Fort saves and -20 HPs. So he is down to 203 HP. Compared to the Fighter's 244hp. This is 15 point buy and also the "Elite Array" 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
The Fighter could dump Wis even more and just take a -2 to Will Saves and save the rest. Wow, Dex sure is important, isn't it? The Monk might be better off dumping Str down to 10 and raising his Con back up to 14. This would make the the trade off -2 damage vs. the Fighter's -2 Will save. Of course, how much damage is the Fighter doing while he is dominated? Or confused, or held, or trapped in a cube of force, or any number of things that his poor saves are going to inflict on him? Gee, it sure would be nice if he had good saves... or Spell Resist 30... or natural immunity to a variety of effects... Oh wait, that's what the Monk has.
Of course, how much damage is the Fighter doing while he is dominated? Or confused, or held, or trapped in a cube of force, or any number of things that his poor saves are going to inflict on him? Gee, it sure would be nice if he had good saves... or Spell Resist 30... or natural immunity to a variety of effects... Oh wait, that's what the Monk has.
The fighter is probably still doing more damage then the monk is while dominated or confused, just against the wrong targets ;p
Yes, the monk is very defensive. We know that. The problem is, how much good is the monks defense doing when the enemy ignores him because he's just lightly tickling the baddie?
Oh, and to answer your question, the fighter is doing just fine, since all of those are easily bought as magic items - magic items the monk can't afford as his necklace and bracers cost drastically more then the fighter's armor and weapon ;)
All the dex to damage feat does is allow finesse characters to catch up. Finesse is currently good for rogues because rogues already have a second means of damage doing in sneak attack. Nobody else has that. Duelist especially suffers because he doesn't have TWF.
So this just lets them catch up. Lets test that.
Taking my first example above the Monk was doing 21 damage a hit. If he takes a feat and adds Dex to his damage instead of Str he is now doing 25 damage a hit. So if he hits twice for every one of the Fighter's hits he is doing 50 damage compared to the Fighter's 51. He definitely doesn't need that 14 in Str anymore, it's a complete waste. He can spend those 5 points somewhere else, maybe Wisdom? So +1 to AC, CMD, Will Saves, Ki, and Quivering Palm Save DC.
So the Monk spent 3 extra feats. Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvers and Dex to Damage (whatever you want to call it), but keep in mind that the Fighter also spent 3 extra feats on Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapons Specialization. So they break even there.
So now the Monk does the same damage as a Two-Handed Sword Fighter and can dump Str to 10 to increase Wisdom (with all the benefits I described above).
@Prof-most of the TWF builds I've seen are crit-based or SA builds--they rely more on a wide crit range (or SA) to do the extra damage. More attacks gives more of a chance to crit/SA than do 2WF builds. As to your argument about the duelist, I don't have the book in front of me, but does it allow a character to have their int bonus to AC, hit, damage, etc.? What I'm getting at is that allowing other stats (which more skills rely on) take the place of to hit and can cause a total "rework" of how a class is stated and whatnot. This is my opinion, feel free to disagree with it if you want, but I just don't see the need to have dex replace strength to hit and to damage. There has to be some balance to the number of extra attacks a character is getting and the amount of damage they're dealing (aside from a paltry -2 modifier).
The problem is, we've answered those already.
We've shown that there is a balance to the number of extra attacks.
That there's one to the damage they're dealing.
That there isn't a total rework of how the class is stated.
The fact is, yeah, most of the TWF builds are gonna be SA builds (not even crit ones as those don't come until play until level 10+). Because that's currently the only way to make a dexterity build.
Of course, how much damage is the Fighter doing while he is dominated? Or confused, or held, or trapped in a cube of force, or any number of things that his poor saves are going to inflict on him? Gee, it sure would be nice if he had good saves... or Spell Resist 30... or natural immunity to a variety of effects... Oh wait, that's what the Monk has.The fighter is probably still doing more damage then the monk is while dominated or confused, just against the wrong targets ;p
Yes, the monk is very defensive. We know that. The problem is, how much good is the monks defense doing when the enemy ignores him because he's just lightly tickling the baddie?
Oh, and to answer your question, the fighter is doing just fine, since all of those are easily bought as magic items - magic items the monk can't afford as his necklace and bracers cost drastically more then the fighter's armor and weapon ;)
How is 100 damage a round a "tickle"?
Let's add up those items, shall we?
Fighter
53050 +5 Adamant Greatsword
35500 +5 Mithril Full Plate Armor
50000 +5 Ring of Protection
50000 +5 Amulet of Natural Armor
25000 +5 Cloak of Resistance
5000 +1 AC Ioun Stone
218550 Total
Monk
125000 +5 Amulet of Might Fists
64000 +8 Bracers of Armor
50000 +5 Ring of Protection
25000 +5 Cloak of Resistance
5000 +1 AC Ioun Stone
269000 Total
Keep in mind that the Amulet of Might Fists is basically adding +5 to TWO weapons. The Monk is spending 50450 more gold than the Fighter, so that is about right.
A Ring of Freedom of Movement will cost 40000, that won't help him against most Will save effects. A Periapt of Health (7500gp) and a Periapt of Proof against Poison (27000gp) both take a neck slot, so you would have to subtract 5 from his AC to get those, and you could only have one. I guess he could use a Cape of the Mountebank (10,080gp) to duplicate the Monk's Abundant Step once a day, but he would lose +5 from his Saves, which he really can't afford. Helm of Teleportation (73,500) works three times a day, but it is kinda overkill.
I did some math, please correct me if I am wrong. I am assuming 28 Str 20 Dex for the Fighter and the reverse for the Monk. That's base 16 +2 racial +4 levels +6 enhancement for the primary and base 14 +6 enhancement for the secondary. Both have a 20 Wis, 14 base +6 enhancement. Both with +5 enhancement bonus to Weapons and Saves (I gave the Fighter Iron Will). Armor is pretty strait forward as well.
Um, on 15 point buy?
Nonetheless your example demonstrates that if the monk could add their dex-modifier to their damage they'd catch up a little, not necessarily be unbalanced.
It's a pretty good feat, honestly.Still, it'd be a pretty good feat better used with a straight Fighter class over a Duelist PrC combo honestly, though.
Well it would stack with the Canny Defence class feature, and it's restricted by the maximum dex mod afforded by armour, so a lightly armoured duelist would perhaps get more out of it than a plate armoured pure fighter is my thinking.
@Lord Twig, your calculations miss one point - what happens if the enemy has DR, which at level 20 is almost a given? The fighter is (a) more likely to have a weapon that will get past the DR and (b) the DR counts effectively twice against the monk because the damage is divided amongst many smaller blows.
Monk hits 25 damage vs 20 DR = 5 damage per hit.
Fighter hits 51 damage vs 20 DR = 31 damage per hit.
Monk is tickling again ... even WITH the bonus damage.
@Lord Twig, your calculations miss one point - what happens if the enemy has DR, which at level 20 is almost a given? The fighter is (a) more likely to have a weapon that will get past the DR and (b) the DR counts effectively twice against the monk because the damage is divided amongst many smaller blows.
Monk hits 25 damage vs 20 DR = 5 damage per hit.
Fighter hits 51 damage vs 20 DR = 31 damage per hit.
When has DR really mattered at that level? My experience may be atypical, but I have yet to hit a situation where we didn't have the right attack to overcome DR.
The Monk's natural attacks are Magic, Lawful and Adamantine. In addition the +5 amulet gets through everything. A +5 enhancement bonus gets through cold iron, silver, adamantine, and all alignment-based DRs. The #/- DR is usually pretty low. I guess there is slashing or piercing DR, but those are pretty rare and usally pretty low too (zombies I guess).
I confess, I had forgotten the changes that enable +X weapons to overcome DR. Given your stats (which are pretty freakiy), the damage is evened up, but the monk still has less HP and probably worse AC. This still gives the fighter the solid edge in a straight fight, but the monk cannot be ignored any more by the BBEG, which was kind of the objective.
The problem is, we've answered those already.
We've shown that there is a balance to the number of extra attacks.
That there's one to the damage they're dealing.
That there isn't a total rework of how the class is stated.
The fact is, yeah, most of the TWF builds are gonna be SA builds (not even crit ones as those don't come until play until level 10+). Because that's currently the only way to make a dexterity build.
Emphasis mine, but this is exactly the point of our thoughts and ideas - to find a way to make the "agile fighter" viable w/out resorting to SA mechanics as the ONLY answer.
Disagree? Fine - move along and be done with it.
I must say, it makes me giggle how, every time I'm attacked, two new people come and back me up. Bottom line, if you don't want a character who's crappy in physical combat, don't give them crappy physical stats. It's THAT simple. Play the character, not the stats. Dex fighters can be dumb? Strong and dumb? It could work. Or ugly. Or, more likely, lack willpower and be unable to resist temptation. Or frail?
*Edit* Yeah, I know, the aforementioned two people is an arbitrary number.
You know what's *really* funny?
The new people popping in haven't fully read the threads or posts and assume the main challenge rest on the thread title "Weapon Finesse Viable" rather than what's it's evolved into since then.
You know what's even funnier than that, though?
The "new people" coming in ... they aren't covering ANYTHING new. At all. Ha, HA! Hahahahaha!! Heheheeheheheheheh .... wait. That's not really funny, actually. It's just tiresome and annoying. *rollseyes*
Which begs the question to *me* as to whether or not it's just time to make a new thread, likely under "House Rules" to continue the discussion.
Weapon Finesse itself seems perfectly viable, honestly.
UPDATE
For those of you now joining us. We've determined that weapon finesse is only good with 2 weapon rogues (in theory, paladins, cavaliers or even rangers could count in the right situations).
This thread has evolved into a discussion of whether or not a dex to damage feat that accompanies weapon finesse is overpowered.
The concerns are, does it make str a dump stat, does it out damage a 2handed fighter and is too good.
I've playtested a version of such a feat and found none of the above to be true. That's just me though. Your own opinions are of course yours.
Please continue to discuss.
UPDATE
For those of you now joining us. We've determined that weapon finesse is only good with 2 weapon rogues (in theory, paladins, cavaliers or even rangers could count in the right situations).
Uh... What? Who determined this? Certainly I don't agree. Weapon Finesse is good for any Dex based character. It's good for all Dex based two weapon fighters except for Str based Rangers and Monks (who can get the feats without a high Dex). All Rogues, except Str based thugs. Archers can use it to boost their melee. Also Duelists and probably many more examples. Will they all do as much damage as a drooling Greatsword Fighter? No, but it is still good.
This thread has evolved into a discussion of whether or not a dex to damage feat that accompanies weapon finesse is overpowered.
The concerns are, does it make str a dump stat, does it out damage a 2handed fighter and is too good.
I've playtested a version of such a feat and found none of the above to be true. That's just me though. Your own opinions are of course yours.
Please continue to discuss.
And I have shown that replacing Str with Dex makes the Monk equal to the aforementioned drooling Fighter, but he gets to dump Str and keep all of his other nifty abilities.
We could also look at the drooling Two Weapon Fighter. With Dex to damage, I wonder if he will out perform the other drooling combat monster? I haven't run the numbers on that, but if I'm feeling ambitious I may give it a try.
And I have shown that replacing Str with Dex makes the Monk equal to the aforementioned drooling Fighter, but he gets to dump Str and keep all of his other nifty abilities.
Yes, how dare he need only have to have two very high stats instead of three ... or the fighter's one. Further, the idea was that dex damage does not replace strength damage, it's additional damage.
We could also look at the drooling Two Weapon Fighter. With Dex to damage, I wonder if he will out perform the other drooling combat monster? I haven't run the numbers on that, but if I'm feeling ambitious I may give it a try.
In fact, the rest of the fighter builds can use these options and get improvement out of them. If, for example, your 20 dex fighter example from above was also adding his dex to damage, he'd still be out-scoring the monk.
From what I've seen the TWF fighter can out-damage the two-handed weapon fighter somewhat anyway. It's a bit more complex and takes more feats but it's doable.
And I have shown that replacing Str with Dex makes the Monk equal to the aforementioned drooling Fighter, but he gets to dump Str and keep all of his other nifty abilities.Yes, how dare he need only have to have two very high stats instead of three ... or the fighter's one. Further, the idea was that dex damage does not replace strength damage, it's additional damage.
Really? That's even worse! Now my Monk above is dealing 60 damage vs. the Fighter's 51 damage. How is that not broken?
We could also look at the drooling Two Weapon Fighter. With Dex to damage, I wonder if he will out perform the other drooling combat monster? I haven't run the numbers on that, but if I'm feeling ambitious I may give it a try.In fact, the rest of the fighter builds can use these options and get improvement out of them. If, for example, your 20 dex fighter example from above was also adding his dex to damage, he'd still be out-scoring the monk.
From what I've seen the TWF fighter can out-damage the two-handed weapon fighter somewhat anyway. It's a bit more complex and takes more feats but it's doable.
If the TWF already out-damages the Two-Handed Fighter, then why give him ANOTHER feat that helps boost his damage?
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@Prof-most of the TWF builds I've seen are crit-based or SA builds--they rely more on a wide crit range (or SA) to do the extra damage. More attacks gives more of a chance to crit/SA than do 2WF builds. As to your argument about the duelist, I don't have the book in front of me, but does it allow a character to have their int bonus to AC, hit, damage, etc.? What I'm getting at is that allowing other stats (which more skills rely on) take the place of to hit and can cause a total "rework" of how a class is stated and whatnot. This is my opinion, feel free to disagree with it if you want, but I just don't see the need to have dex replace strength to hit and to damage. There has to be some balance to the number of extra attacks a character is getting and the amount of damage they're dealing (aside from a paltry -2 modifier).The problem is, we've answered those already.
We've shown that there is a balance to the number of extra attacks.
That there's one to the damage they're dealing.
That there isn't a total rework of how the class is stated.
The fact is, yeah, most of the TWF builds are gonna be SA builds (not even crit ones as those don't come until play until level 10+). Because that's currently the only way to make a dexterity build.
I don't have the time to read 400 posts, sorry. Even still, I am simply stating my opinion on the matter and my opinion stands...take it or leave it. I believe that STR is keyed off of so few skills for the simple fact that it provides such a large combat benefit. DEX OTOH, is keyed off of many more skills and provides more bonuses. Basically it boils down to this--if weapon finesses provided damage as well as to hit, and you take the agile maneuvers feat, there is no reason whatsoever to not dump strength (unless your DM is an encumbrance nazi). Two feats would effectively make one stat obsolete--that shouldn't happen.
EDIT: one more caveat to strength dump--it would affect you CMD, so I guess you couldn't really take it below 10 unless you don't care about getting grappled.
Really? That's even worse! Now my Monk above is dealing 60 damage vs. the Fighter's 51 damage. How is that not broken?
Because the fighter is doing 61+ damage with those changes? You pulled your ability scores for that example out of a hat is the problem; the realistic approach would have the fighter with a truly awesome strength score, the monk would more likely have a less awesome dexterity and wisdom score (MAD vs SAD) and a less than breathtaking strength. Start with a point build from scratch, then increment up to level 20. I think you will find that the fighter is still out-damaging the monk, but that they are on a more even footing.
Also, you make a number of assumptions about number of hits that may not hold true, the monk will have a lower base to hit chance, even if only slightly. 10% less chance to hit = 10% less damage, after all.
If the TWF already out-damages the Two-Handed Fighter, then why give him ANOTHER feat that helps boost his damage?
Because there is a big gap between theory and practice.
Theory: TWFer can get double the damage bonus from Weapon Specialisation, weapon training and any weapon damage bonuses than the two handed fighter, while the bonus damage is the same from strength and power attack.
Practice: The two-handed fighter needs only strength, and has a higher strength score than the TWFer who needs strength anddexterity. To get higher dex he is likely to have lower strength, so he ends up doing not just slightly less damage, but having a lower to-hit chance as well.
End result: making the changes gives him more damage, but still a lower chance to hit, and not more damage in a single hit.
The amount of damage you can deal in one hit matters, as you don't always get the opportunity to full-attack.
hey guys, so I haven't time to build for fun the stat up cross examination of the fighter 2hd, and fighter two weapon builds, but after reading a lot of posts, thank god for down time at work. I have decided there are simple answers when I get back from cooking dinner, and hopefully eating dinner, I will pitch a monk with varying dex feats, a fighter two handing and a fighter two weapon build, I am thinking of making them level 20 and see if any of them can solo a dragon, or a shogoth perhaps (the last shogoth I pulled out almost ate the entire party, until the mage finally got past sr and zapped it good)
Really? That's even worse! Now my Monk above is dealing 60 damage vs. the Fighter's 51 damage. How is that not broken?Because the fighter is doing 61+ damage with those changes? You pulled your ability scores for that example out of a hat is the problem; the realistic approach would have the fighter with a truly awesome strength score, the monk would more likely have a less awesome dexterity and wisdom score (MAD vs SAD) and a less than breathtaking strength. Start with a point build from scratch, then increment up to level 20. I think you will find that the fighter is still out-damaging the monk, but that they are on a more even footing.
How is the Fighter doing more damage? Can he had Dex to Damage to his Greatsword as well? If so then, huh? All you are doing is upping the power of melee for everyone. Of course everyone has to take this new feat, if you don't then you are way behind the curve. You don't see where this is wrong?
And I showed you how to generate those scores. 25 point buy, 20 point buy and 15 point buy. You can play with the numbers to boost the Fighter's hit and damage if you want, but everything else will go down when you do. The only thing Str is good for is hit and damage.
SAD is a myth. I have never seen a Fighter with 18 Str and 10 everywhere else. If Str was really all he needed he would be fine, right? The bottom line is that all physical combatants need all of the physical attributes. Str, Dex and Con. Your feat either removes Str, which no other feat does for any of the other stats, or it just increases the bonus of a high Dex until it becomes an absolute necessity.
Also, you make a number of assumptions about number of hits that may not hold true, the monk will have a lower base to hit chance, even if only slightly. 10% less chance to hit = 10% less damage, after all.
If the TWF already out-damages the Two-Handed Fighter, then why give him ANOTHER feat that helps boost his damage?Because there is a big gap between theory and practice.
Theory: TWFer can get double the damage bonus from Weapon Specialisation, weapon training and any weapon damage bonuses than the two handed fighter, while the bonus damage is the same from strength and power attack.
Practice: The two-handed fighter needs only strength, and has a higher strength score than the TWFer who needs strength anddexterity. To get higher dex he is likely to have lower strength, so he ends up doing not just slightly less damage, but having a lower to-hit chance as well.
End result: making the changes gives him more damage, but still a lower chance to hit, and not more damage in a single hit.
The amount of damage you can deal in one hit matters, as you don't always get the opportunity to full-attack.
I think it was only 5% less to hit, so I will give you that, plus I will admit that there is a big benefit in being able to do more damage with a single hit, but it does not warrant the extreme change you are suggesting.
Anyway, it is unlikely at this point that I will change your mind. How you play your game is up to you and if you are having fun, who cares? What I REALLY don't want to see is something like this being added to the official rules. That's the main thing.
How is the Fighter doing more damage? Can he had Dex to Damage to his Greatsword as well? If so then, huh? All you are doing is upping the power of melee for everyone. Of course everyone has to take this new feat, if you don't then you are way behind the curve. You don't see where this is wrong?Really? That's even worse! Now my Monk above is dealing 60 damage vs. the Fighter's 51 damage. How is that not broken?Because the fighter is doing 61+ damage with those changes? You pulled your ability scores for that example out of a hat is the problem; the realistic approach would have the fighter with a truly awesome strength score, the monk would more likely have a less awesome dexterity and wisdom score (MAD vs SAD) and a less than breathtaking strength. Start with a point build from scratch, then increment up to level 20. I think you will find that the fighter is still out-damaging the monk, but that they are on a more even footing.
No, I don't.
Unless you limit the dex damage to finesse weapons (which we could do, I suppose) there's no real reason why not. And while the monk may do as much damage as the fighter, in every other respect he is behind the curve - to hit, AC, hit points, all behind.
And I showed you how to generate those scores. 25 point buy, 20 point buy and 15 point buy. You can play with the numbers to boost the Fighter's hit and damage if you want, but everything else will go down when you do. The only thing Str is good for is hit and damage.
SAD is a myth. I have never seen a Fighter with 18 Str and 10 everywhere else. If Str was really all he needed he would be fine, right? The bottom line is that all physical combatants need all of the physical attributes. Str, Dex and Con. Your feat either removes Str, which no other feat does for any of the other stats, or it just increases the bonus of a high Dex until it becomes an absolute necessity.
Whatever the fighter needs, the monk needs as well, always including dexterity and plus wisdom, and with the feat structure I gave, a 13 in intelligence too. That's at least one extra good score they have to produce, which reduces everything else. One thing I am specific on, the feat does NOT remove strength - good strength is always an advantage in a melee combatant. All it does is stop it being an absolute necessity, so that a dexterity and intelligence based fighter can step up to the plate and not be pushed straight over. The strength based character can still dish out massive damage more easily.
I'll add, I wasn't designing with monks in mind, but that a monk can use their flurry to deliver more damage in a round than a fighter of the same level isn't broken because of their other restrictions.
The change is not an extreme one.
For the investment of several feats (three), you can add your dex to damage as precision damage, up to the limit of your armour's dex limit. You have to have an astronomical dexterity to make it work overtime, skip on armour, and it takes a big investment in feats.
Even if you can make your dex-based fighter do more damage by a few than the grunt with the big sword at level 20, so what? The grunt has got feats elsewhere you don't, and likely a better AC into the bargain.
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I see where you're going with this, I think that, mechanically speaking, both of your suggested feats are too much. They both break the mechanics of the game (see the spoiler at the end for my explanations why I believe this to be true).
Instead, I propoe these new Feats:
You are superbly trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, STR 11+, BAB 5+
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your damage rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
** spoiler omitted **...
i like this feat idea, but i think it's too powerful for BAB 5+. instead i suggest an Improved Weapon Finesse for BAB 5+ as the 2nd in a chain of 3 weapon finesse feats. give it the same prereqs as what you have for Greater Weapon Finesse but instead of doing full dex modifier to your damage make it add your str modifier plus half your dex modifier. then the 3rd part of the chain is your Greater Weapon Finesse that does as you explain, but requires Improved and has a slightly higher str and BAB requirement. maybe 13str and BAB 9+?
the only thing i'm not sure about is this being too over powered. i mean if you've got a +3 str and a +4 dex with Improved, you are adding +5 to your damage which would do more than just your +4 dex with the Greater version. i'm not a number cruncher, but if some of you number crunchers out there want to look at it and see if you can improve or tweak this idea to make it more balanced, maybe we can get some better Weapon Finesse feats.
Fighter who wields a two handed great sword I have named him Sven(this was rolled by the way, because I like rolling stats, all characters are using the same rolls)
Sven is a lv20 fighter for this situation,
I rolled for lv 1 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 12 (sad there was no 18)
So since sven is a brute we are going to give him these stats
STR 18, DEX 14, and CON 14, INT 12, WIS 12, and CHA 10.
we then have 5 points from leveling to disperse but as I said sven is a brute
STR 23, DEX 14, con 14, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 10.
Now then according to page 399 sven has 880,000 gold to blow through
so he buys himself a nice great sword which he names snickety slash, because named things are more powerful, this is going to be a +5 greatsword of speeding and shocking burst so he spends 200,000 gold on his favorite sword, he also buys some adventuring armor full plate because it is the best, he gets it made of mythral because it is shinier, and feels lighter, it is +5 and has heavy fortification, another 100,000 spent 300,000+1650+350=302,000 gold so far. well now he goes and buys himself a cloak to protect himself with from creepy old men with wands, he gets a +5 cloak of protection 25,000, oh and 9,000 for the mythral if I remember correctly, amulet of natural armor +5, 50,000gp so 386,000gp so far, Finding another shiny platinum belt buckle he asks the shopkeeper for it paying 144,000 gp for the belt of physical perfection +6, going to all physical stats. 530,000gp, He then buys goggles of night because you never know when darkvision will help you, and gloves of climbing and swimming 18250 so 548,250, he now has a remaining sum of 331,750 he buys some tomes because he understands that reading can be good for you, 137,500 (str boost +5) 110,00 (con boost +4) 84,250 gold left, buying a ring of protection +5 50,000 hitting himself in the head for almost forgetting that, 34,250, he buys one more ring a ring of evasion 25,000, 9250 gold pieces he puts this aside for settling bar tabs.
so in the end our friendly fighter has the following stats
STR: 34, DEX: 20, CON: 24, INT: 12, WIS: 12, and cha 10.
AC: 39, HP: 250 (averaging HP), F: +24, R: +16, W: +12 (+5vs fear)
weapon: Great sword: +39/+39/+34/+29/+24 2d6+43+1d6elec CRIT 17-20/x3 (2d10 elec) oh and DR 5/- because he wears armor.
Feats: power attack, cleave, great cleave, weapon focus great sword, weapon spec great sword, intimidating prowess, vital strike, improved vital strike, greater vital strike, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization, penetrating strike, and greater penetrating strike, dazzling display, shatter defense, deadly stroke, improved critical, critical focus, critical mastery, bleeding critical, tiring critical.
He probably is not optimal but he is damn scary.
and he will fill intimidate fully, so intimidate of 35
One day Sven is just walking minding his own business in an active volcano when a big red dragon comes buy and tells him to hand over all his money and gear, noticing he forgot pockets and having a deep emotional attachment to his sword he refuses and fights the dragon (ancient red dragon) we are doing this using percentages by the way, so Sven goes first with his initiative of 5 (dragon has 3) so now then the red dragon has an AC of 38 so mathematically Sven can hit 95% of the time with his first 2 attacks, third is 80% and 55% with his 4th, 30% of the time with last attack. criticals 20% of the time(nat ones are calculated in) He can save against the dragons breath weapon 30% of the time, and the dragons bite hits 80% if the time as do the 2 claws, and the tail and wings hit 70% of the time,
Dragon has 362 hp, so what more than likely happens well round one, Sven hits the dragon lots, dealing 8d6+48+27+3.5 elec. greater vital strike, average damage from this attack is 106 damage, second attack hits, 89 damage, third attack hits 70 damage, 4th attack hits 51 damage, 5th attack misses. (statistically one crit would have happened probably on the third or 4th attack) 316 damage (on the third 458 dead dragon, 4th 420 dead dragon) in one round, dragon is dead and if it wasn't it would be bleeding and tired.
So Sven is scary, next I will type up a two weapon fighter, and give him either 50% dex on top of str with a feat on top of wf, or swap dex for str. me I am a fan of adding half.
What I REALLY don't want to see is something like this being added to the official rules. That's the main thing.
Well ... it's a damn good thing you didn't read ANYTHING like the first 2 pages of this thread.
You know ... where one of the LEAD designer's posted up his version of the SAME sort of feat that's being play-tested in his games at home, AND (*gasp of all gasps*) ... (wait for it) ... (really now ... you waiting?) ... (no peaking! I see you!!) ... (ok ... you waited long enough)
There has been NO imbalance in play. At all ... nothing.
So, recap for you:
1) A lead designer runs his games with a similar feat in play
2) It has even fewer restrictions than 1/2 of what we've posited (though "free finesse" has it beat hands down - for the record)
3) It's been play-tested for a while in his own home game
4) No one out-shines anyone else on account of it
5) It plays just fine "in practice" at the table
6) His players are satisfied with the results and investments from what he's seen.
Yeah ... shame you want to come in here and, you know, NOT read about the topic that interests you enough to post about.
But hey ... I'm going go add you to my non-response/ignore list for this conversation. Clearly, you're here to hinder solely and have contributed NOTHING to the discussion thus far - at all. Every thing you've brought up was already covered a few pages back ...
:shrugs:
*points finger to the previous pages of thread posts, and resumes pondering the exact way to implement rules changes for his own games*
Next character is a going to be a Monk, his name is Brother Markus,
Markus is a level 20 monk starting stats are STR: 14 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT 12 WIS: 14 CHA 10, in the beginning no point to get him weapon finesse.
Now skip ahead to level 20 he has gained 5 points to spend, We are going to throw this all into dex (because kungfu is all about speed) Now then Markus has a large sack of money which was given to him by his holy order of face meets fist, 880,000gp, first thing he does is buys himself an amulet of mighty fist +5 125,000gp, he buys himself a belt of physical perfection +6 144,000, Boots of speed 12,000gp, bracers of armor +8 64,000gp, cloak of protection +5 25,000gp, ring of protection 50,000gp, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, 36,000gp, manual of quickness of action +5, 137,500, manual of bodily health +2 55,000, str +4 110,000, wis +4 110,000,
1500 gp remaining which he will use for travel expenses.
Leaving him with stats of
STR: 24, DEX: 30, CON: 22, INT: 12, WIS: 24, CHA: 10.
AC: 46, HP: 210, F: +23, R: +27, W: +24, INIT: +14
Weapon his bare hands, +31/31/31/31/26/26/21/21/16 2d10+25 19-20/x2
Feats: dodge, scorpion style, gorgon's fist, medusa's wrath, improved critical, combat reflexes, vital strike, improved vital strike, weapon focus unarmed, weapon finesse, improved weapon finesse (+1/2 half dex to damage) Improved initiative, power attack, wind stance, lightning stance, stand still. Stunning fist DC: 27
Now then one day Marcus went on a nice walk and saw a dragon who had decided to snack on some small children, intervening on this situation he challenged the dragon to fisty cuffs.
same type of dragon same age so init 3 vs 14 monk wins
So Marcus is going to analyze his situation he has a big dragon probability of hitting is as follows
65% for the first 4 attacks, 40% for the next 2, 15% for the next two, and a 5% chance for the last attack. not as accurate as our good friend Sven. his stunning fist has a 30% success chance and if it hits he gets two extra attacks, he has a 10% critical hit chance. on the second attack it will probably go through so it makes it nuetral, but stuns the dragon till his next turn. So he start off with stunning fist, so here is how it goes.
stunning fist, fail, stunning fist success dragon is stunned and now he has a +10% chance to hit the dragon, the next 6 attacks hit the last three will miss, but since I am giving opening favor to anything 50% or over, by damage attack 3 he will have a critical. so damage
first attack (82) second attack (59) third attack (crit 72) fourth (36) fifth (36) sixth (36) seventh miss, eight miss, ninth (crit 72)
393 damage dead dragon in one round he is good.
now then lets reduce this by the 5pts of damage from dex, 60points from dex so 333 damage not so dead dragon, and lastly if we swapped dex for str 369 dead dragon.
so I guess as long as one or the other is done Marcus is good enough to kill a red dragon in one round never forget to spend your ki to get that extra punch it packs a doozy.
Please keep in mind I do this only for fun and not for any argument purpose anymore.
What I REALLY don't want to see is something like this being added to the official rules. That's the main thing.
Well ... it's a damn good thing you didn't read ANYTHING like the first 2 pages of this thread.
You know ... where one of the LEAD designer's posted up his version of the SAME sort of feat that's being play-tested in his games at home, AND (*gasp of all gasps*) ... (wait for it) ... (really now ... you waiting?) ... (no peaking! I see you!!) ... (ok ... you waited long enough)
There has been NO imbalance in play. At all ... nothing.
So, recap for you:
1) A lead designer runs his games with a similar feat in play
2) It has even fewer restrictions than 1/2 of what we've posited (though "free finesse" has it beat hands down - for the record)
3) It's been play-tested for a while in his own home game
4) No one out-shines anyone else on account of it
5) It plays just fine "in practice" at the table
6) His players are satisfied with the results and investments from what he's seen.Yeah ... shame you want to come in here and, you know, NOT read about the topic that interests you enough to post about.
But hey ... I'm going go add you to my non-response/ignore list for this conversation. Clearly, you're here to hinder solely and have contributed NOTHING to the discussion thus far - at all. Every thing you've brought up was already covered a few pages back ...
:shrugs:
*points finger to the previous pages of thread posts, and resumes pondering the exact way to implement rules changes for his own games*
Actually it was on the first page, he posted a few times and it was almost a month ago. I did read it at that time, but it took me a while before I felt the need to jump in and comment on this thread.
I'm currently playtesting a form of improved weapon finesse that lets you add your Dex mod to damage and it seems to be doing okay; the rogue in the group isn't outshining the fighter type much, but I've not done MUCH testing yet.
So he has tested it with ONE character, a rogue, and he isn't outshining the fighter much. And he admits he has not done that much testing with it. This is all the more reason to post now about the problems I see with such a feat.
This game was playtested by what? Thousands of people? And yet an Improved version of Weapon Finesse didn't make it into the final game. I think there is a good reason for that. Probably because (1) it's not needed and (2) it would be overpowered.
You are of course free to ignore my posts. Others in this thread have ignored the numbers I have come up with, or dismissed them with no evidence to the contrary, and then continued to claim that the opposite of what is true, is true. So one more won't hurt I guess.
last post I felt like making a duelist and making him fight a dragon his name is Montoya, a cookie to those who get the reference.
Now then Montoya is a skilled swords man and he has been training and adventuring for a long time, armed with his fathers magical sword (Rapier) he wears little armor, and goes around defeating people with skill and the pointy end of his blade.
Stats starting: so he will have a STR14 DEX18 CON14 INT14 WIS 10 CHA10
throwing the +5 to dex, and magical items are as follow Belt for CON and DEX 90,000gp +6, head band boost to INT and WIS +6 90,000gp, 700,000gp left
Ring of Protection 50,00gp +5, Amulet of Natural armor +5 25,000gp, Cloak of protection 25,000gp +5, ring of evasion 25,000gp, +5 wounding rapier speeding 200,000gp, 375,000gp left, +5 to DEX 137500, +4 to INT 110,000, boots of speed 12,000gp, Bracer's of armor +8 64,000gp. 61,500 left. boost to con +2 (55,000gp) 6,500gp for traveling and fun.
Note: using swapping dex for str with improved weapon finesse
Stats: STR14, DEX: 34, CON: 22, INT: 24, WIS: 16, CHA10
HP: 230, AC: 49, F: +21, R: +28, W: +14(+3 vs fear)
Feats: 17, Weapon focus rapier, greater, weapon specialization, dodge, vital strike, improved vital strike, greater vital strike, weapon finesse, improved weapon finesse, weapon training 2 rapier, mobility, power attack, critical focus, tiring critical, exhausting critical, Disruptive, spell breaker, improved critical.
Rapier: +36/36/36/31/26/21 1d6+41, 1 point bleed per attack 15-20/x2 exhaustion
So one day Montoya was walking along minding his own business looking for a man with six fingers when he crossed upon an angry dragon, he asked the dragon if it had seen a six fingered man and it tried to eat him roll initiative.
16vs 3 Montoya wins
Montoya quickly strikes out at his opponent with deft skill and ferocity
He has a 90% chance for the first three attacks, 65% for the 4th 40% for the fifth and 15% for the 6th. Now then Montoya has a 30% chance to get a critical hit in (so with my rule he gets one on the third attack, and one on the sixth attack)
so damage: first (91) second attack (75) third attack (118) fourth attack (43) fifth miss, sixth (86) total: 413, dead dragon, he is good enough, so yeah I like the replacement feat evens things out nicely at capstone level. besides ignoring the fact that the dragon has -3 ac at that point so +15% to hit to the last three attacks.
So yeah this is the last one they were all for fun but just to note 413 from dualist with replacement dex v str, 369 for Monk, 458 for fighter, while yes he deals more damage still, it doesn't matter they deal enough damage with this, and they have much higher ac in these cases with equal stats, equal wealth, equal level all from the core book. I like this feat, and I have no problem with a feat that takes half dex and adds it to damage on top of str as long as it is only with weapon finesse weapons, it doesn't push them ahead in damage but it brings them up to a dangerous level.
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thanks for all the number crunching kadarian. i was going to ask about a duelist as they specifically built around finesse weapons. another one i'm curious about (and the one that's more relevant to me) is a TWF rogue with Improved or Greater Finesse. to me it seems like they could be particularly deadly with a surprise round.
i have a question though. have you thought about seeing how the feats pan out with only mundane or masterwork gear? i know i love to see all that shiny loot, but i've only ever had 1 DM that allowed that amount of gear wealth. i've had the DM extremes of that level of gear and then walking around at 10th level with only 3000 gold worth of gear. i mean a true test might be just the nonmagical gear. also, can you do a rogue? i imagine that the 3 you've already done was plenty of work, so no biggie if you don't feel like it.
thanks again.
This game was playtested by what? Thousands of people? And yet an Improved version of Weapon Finesse didn't make it into the final game. I think there is a good reason for that. Probably because (1) it's not needed and (2) it would be overpowered.
A reply to you and *most* nay sayers to this very argument here:
There *is* a reason, but it's not a very good one, honestly. I dl'd the beta and there was not even such an option. Now, a lead designer and the length of this thread would tell a different tale.
So why, as a company, would a product pushing itself as 3.x compatible NOT include an option that was already NOT an option to the 3.x rule set?
Hmmm ... pondering a bit. Could it be "sacred cow" ?
Yes. Yes it can, and I think that fits as the very nature of your arguments that rail against the change for THAT reason alone. Look - all things being equal someone just used #'s to back what we claim (ie: not THAT big of a difference in play).
So, you like your Beef? Eat it up, man! Not gonna' stop you. Not even gonna' try. BUT get your keister OUT of my kitchen and stop trying to ruin my Chicken and Pork recipe's you food critic!!! OUT of my kitchen! Go! Go NOW!!! Do not pass go!!! Do NOT collect $200 dollars!!! The great and powerful Oz has spoken!!!!
{seriously - you're not a fan. This is clear ... why stick around and derail discussion for those that *are*?}
ON TOPIC POINT: I'm kind of a fan to at least try a feat set that can let the agile fighter work from level 1 (or level 2, or pretty early in the career) as far as utilizing Dex over Str in combat style. Just throwing that out there for everyone ...
lots of stuff
Rapier is already better than longsword for anyone dealing ~22 damage on average (12 with improved critical). This feat just adds gravy. For elven curve blade vs 2HS, the breaking point is slightly higher, but still easily reachable. I would prefer some of the traditional weapons get some love before we make them more obsolete.
@Caineach: Well ... what's to stop applying "weapon finesse" and the "dex to damage feat" we're kicking around right now from applying to traditional weapons? Is it "finesse only" weapons that holds you back (this concept rather)?
Since it's a house rule anyway to use such feats (as have been proposed - not WF itself) why not allow WF and the improvement to apply to ANY/ALL weapons instead of just finesse weapons?
IMO, the "improvement" that the base weapons get is that their users have more open feats to dedicate to things like Power Attack, Cleave, or Vital Strike, etc, etc where the finesse-guy is stuck "paying off" his ability to not rely on str by using 3+ feats to make it happen so he's about as competent as a str-guy only build.
Granted, nothing happens to the weapon itself ... but nothing happens to the weapons of the agile fighters either. It's their skill (represented in feat selection) that does all the work there.
Just saying ...
Hmmm ... pondering a bit. Could it be "sacred cow" ?
Yes. Yes it can, and I think that fits as the very nature of your arguments that rail against the change for THAT reason alone. Look - all things being equal someone just used #'s to back what we claim (ie: not THAT big of a difference in play).
I wonder about these numbers you are talking about, my numbers show it is broken. LordKadarian showed that 20th level characters can kill a dragon. So I am obviously not seeing the same thing you are.
We are just going to have to accept that we will never agree on this.
Hmmm ... pondering a bit. Could it be "sacred cow" ?
Yes. Yes it can, and I think that fits as the very nature of your arguments that rail against the change for THAT reason alone. Look - all things being equal someone just used #'s to back what we claim (ie: not THAT big of a difference in play).
I wonder about these numbers you are talking about, my numbers show it is broken. LordKadarian showed that 20th level characters can kill a dragon. So I am obviously not seeing the same thing you are.
We are just going to have to accept that we will never agree on this.
Not for nothing are there: "Lies, damned lies and statistics." Numbers can say almost anything, to get a real grasp of how something works you don't just need to crunch them at level 20 but at intermediate levels too - most games peak by 15th level, for example, some focus on low levels and some on epic levels.
Another poster and I crunched the numbers on whether a dex-based build with the bonus damage could match a str-based build at 10th level, as the other poster felt that the dex-based build would out-compete by dint of having access to attribute-enhancing magic for two attributes rather than one. We crunched the numbers, and the two builds came out roughly on parity (the strength-based build was actually slightly superior, but not by much, which was the whole point).