Currently in pathfinder, any build using Weapon Finesse is basically non-viable.
This has probably been stated by others (just stopping in for a quick sec) but I'll let you in on what we've done since 3.5. Weapon Finesse is not a feat, it's a rule. Or you could call it a free feat that everyone gets, however you want to look at it.
It makes no sense that a Rogue with 12 STR and 30 DEX would have a lot of trouble stabbing even a weak monster, let alone a level appropriate one. Or worse yet, a Wizard with 8 STR and 25 DEX can't land a touch spell because he isn't strong, even though he's nimble as frak. It just doesn't make any logical sense. It's just there to keep the rules consistant even if common sense was thrown out the window and it ends up being a feat tax for high dex characters.
Logic? You trying to summon a troll or something. Mr. Fishy was lit on fire for suggesting logic.
Logic? You trying to summon a troll or something. Mr. Fishy was lit on fire for suggesting logic.
Are you sure someone wasn't just hungry for smoked salmon?
Logic? You trying to summon a troll or something. Mr. Fishy was lit on fire for suggesting logic.Are you sure someone wasn't just hungry for smoked salmon?
The mechanics of the game are based somewhat on logic, believe it or not. The old grappling rules were difficult to remember because of the logical basis that they spawned from. Example ...
Step 1: Start a grapple. Draws AOO unless you have a feat or ability that negates this. If the attack hits, you lose your grapple attempt.
Step 2: Make a touch attempt.
Step 3: Make opposed grapple checks.
Step 4: If you win, you deal unarmed strike damage and you have to move into your opponents square in order to hold the grapple.
Step 5: The two characters are now grappling. Attacker and defender are denied their Dex bonus to AC while grappling. Ranged attacks against either have a 50% chance of striking the other grappler. These penalties only apply to attacks made by people not involved in the grapple (in other words, attacker and defender attack each other normally). Attacker and defender have no threatened area while grappling. See rules for allowed actions while grappling.
As convoluted as these rules were to resolve grapples, they were so because that was the logical flow of real life grappling. It made sense. It just slowed the game down too much in most cases.
Logic? You trying to summon a troll or something. Mr. Fishy was lit on fire for suggesting logic.Are you sure someone wasn't just hungry for smoked salmon?
don't worry Mr. fishy, i won't eat you. i don't eat anything that originated below the sea. i like my meat to come from ranches above the surface. beef, chicken, lamb, turkey, pork, etc.
Air breather!
Air breather!
at least there is one air breather that will never go after the lives of your kin. heck, i even protest against fishing.
If you're a rogue, I'd personally say to just forget Strength and go all Dex. The + to damage doesn't matter that much, your damage should be coming from sneak attacks, bleed, and other things. Or just get a 13 Str and take Power Attack, that's still a damn fine feat even with just a one-handed weapon.
+1
It will be a "MUST HAVE" feat for every DEX-based melee character on the planet. No feat should ever be a "must have" feat. Anything that you know, without a doubt, will be used by Everyone who is eligible to take it is clearly overpowered.
Or perhaps it's a fix.
Imagine if no classes recieved ANY stats to power, and they were all pathetically weak. Then the feat comes out that lets you put strength to damage. Is it overpowered? Or is it a long due fix?
I also don't like it because, as I said higher on this thread, it drives the last nail into Strength's coffin. Nobody needs strength anymore. Use a point-buy system, get yourself an 18 DEX, drop your STR down to 6, put those extra points into CON or maybe even WIS, get a couple quick feats that any fighter can pick up at level 1, and you're set - way, way more powerful than any normal level 1 character who puts points into STR and DEX.
Please, strength isn't going anywhere. You can't power attack with a light weapon, and power attack is a huge deal. Furthermore, keep in mind that this costs two feats, AND you'd have to go a good amount of in game time before getting that addition to damage. The only thing this feat would do is allow TWF without sneak attack to do something more then just lightly tussle the baddies hair, hearing them giggle faintly as you tickle their ribs ever so slightly.
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It will be a "MUST HAVE" feat for every DEX-based melee character on the planet. No feat should ever be a "must have" feat. Anything that you know, without a doubt, will be used by Everyone who is eligible to take it is clearly overpowered.Or perhaps it's a fix.
Imagine if no classes recieved ANY stats to power, and they were all pathetically weak. Then the feat comes out that lets you put strength to damage. Is it overpowered? Or is it a long due fix?
Strength doesn't help any of the really useful skills, it doesn't bump a save, it doesn't help your AC, nor does it help your INIT. What Strength does is very simple, it helps you hurt other things. That's pretty much all it does.
Giving Dexterity Bonus to damage removes the sole advantage the strength ability offers. Strength would instantly be a dump stat for every character, effectively less useful to most characters than charisma.
The fact that Dexterity is not a dump stat currently is a pretty clear indication that it is a useful stat in it's current form. It doesn't need a fix because it's already highly useful.
Go and reread power attack.
Ya know, I just did that very thing, and I noticed something. According to the RAW on it, you can do Power Attack damage on an attack using Weapon Finesse. Sure, you have to have STR 13 to take PA, and it definitely does more damage when used in conjunction with 2hd fighting, but it doesn't state anywhere that the melee attack roll has to be using a STR bonus. So you COULD use PA with WF, which seems to mitigate the complaint about WF doing less damage than STR-based attacks. Does it make them equally damaging? No. But it's good enough for THIS fan of WF.
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Ya know, I just did that very thing, and I noticed something. According to the RAW on it, you can do Power Attack damage on an attack using Weapon Finesse. Sure, you have to have STR 13 to take PA, and it definitely does more damage when used in conjunction with 2hd fighting, but it doesn't state anywhere that the melee attack roll has to be using a STR bonus. So you COULD use PA with WF, which seems to mitigate the complaint about WF doing less damage than STR-based attacks. Does it make them equally damaging? No. But it's good enough for THIS fan of WF.
Go and reread power attack.
Curiously it makes a nice niche for the elven curved sword blade as the only weapon which is both finesse-able and gives the maximum benefit for works with power attack. That makes it a very nice choice for archers or possibly rogues.
Curiously it makes a nice niche for the elven curved sword blade as the only weapon which is both finesse-able and gives the maximum benefit for works with power attack. That makes it a very nice choice for archers or possibly rogues.
Definitely, especially for rogues. For duelists not so much.
The point of the monk is that he's super defensive; he doesn't need to do as much damage because in theory he'll be around longer than other classes with his mobility and high AC and all that to, over the long term, do more damage.
This is always what I've thought, but there's a lot of pushback against this idea. Everyone seems to want to push every character to maximum damage. But in the course of a real campaign, survivability inevitably rears its ugly head; if you focus on damage and get knocked out of the fight early, you're not really focusing on damage -- you're focusing on the floor.
But if Mr. Fishy doesn't do as much damage as possible how is Mr. Fishy going to keep his kill count up.
Defense??? That for characters that can't one hit kill.
heh whats that saying
best debuff of all is death
if you kill it it can't hurt you anymore.
Perhaps wepaon finesse would be more attractive if on a hit instead of doing more dmg like high STR gives you instead reduce the targets Damage Bonus by some amount related to your Attack Bonus making it harder for the target to do more damage too you or your allies.
meh prob not a great idea but therer it is anyway
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I see where you're going with this, I think that, mechanically speaking, both of your suggested feats are too much. They both break the mechanics of the game (see the spoiler at the end for my explanations why I believe this to be true).
Instead, I propoe these new Feats:<clipped>
DM Blake, +1 for your post. Excellent research and thought-provoking mechanics discussion, worthy of addition to a Pathfinder revision.
My only advice would address another smaller mechanics issue, which is clumsily addressed by a separate feat in one of the Pathfinder splatbooks.
For your Greater Weapon Finesse feat, add scimitar to that list. That solves the problem of the dervish concept in Pathfinder and also makes some fantasy novels ring more true. Statistically there is no reason to include rapier and not scimitar. Regardless of how we believe those weapons "would be used" in combat, statistically the scimitar becomes a very inferior weapon with any dex build.
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Weapon Finesse is not a feat you design a melee character arround if you want to be dealing maximum damage, but you can use it to make non-optimized characters who are still quite viable or allow a non-melee character to become viable in melee. I think it works quite well for its intended purpose.
If your first statement's implications are true, then there would be no need for a rogue sneak attack concept to balance the character in D&D, but it is there. Since damage is king in D&D (e.g. 1hp enemies fight as well as 1000hp enemies), then damage output is the primary concern for any class where spells are not the #1 option.
Weapon Finesse...no, a viable dexterity-based melee build, is a giant wart on D&D 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder alike. Multiple classes and prestige classes were invented with questionable crunchy mechanics to get around/over/through this serious problem, and in PF the problem still exists, especially for multiclass characters.
We also tend to only focus on the feat-laden fighter, but other classes consider this a problem as well, and due to the lack of feats, it is often a larger problem. For instance, if you want a Paladin but do not want Str to be your #2 stat but want to be high Dex, it cannot be done. Mechanically it is a significantly inferior character, no matter how many feats you throw at it in the game.
Likewise, a melee-oriented Dex ranger pales to any other Str-based melee build in the game. Pathfinder Aragorn has to be high strength, not high Dex, especially in point buy.
here is my solutionn yet again
Weapon Celerity [Combat Feat]
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse; Dexterity 15 or better
Benefit; While wielding a light melee weapon you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier for your damage rolls as well. Weapons in your off hand gain ½ this bonus.
Special; if you also have the double slice feat, you may add your full dexterity bonus to your off hand instead of 1/2.
Special; This bonus only applies to light melee weapons.
so what if it doesn't have the fancy prerequisites that DM blakes version has? you can get it much earlier. and that lack of prerequisites allows dumping str. bit i beleive being able to dump str balances itself out, it cuts you off from a whole feat chain, you take a hit to a few skills that are guaranteed to be used at some point, you take a hit to CMB/CMD, your carrying cpacity takes a hit. dump strength too low and you can't even wear medium/heavy armor anymore. you will be forced to buy a handy haversack/bag of holding which is a significant hit to your wealth by level. dumping str is a whole penalty unto itself. and i designed it to only work with light weapons which balances the feat out further. and common sense is another balancing factor. Dumping STR lower than 8 poses serious issues. these issues are most pronounced in the 5 STR halfling.
strength based characters also have the benefit of not needing to pay a 2 feat tax to raise thier damage, and can actually use a weapon with a damage dice bigger than 1d6. the strength based character gets to multiply thier strength by 1.5. for 2handed weapons, something that the dex based character does not recieve benefit from. in fact, it may have allowed the existence of a dual kukri fighter. i am going to have to request something.
i am going to have to request someone to do the math. i don't know the standard dpr formula.
a practical DPR calculation of a practical (for serious play) though very optimized dual kukri fighter using my feat against an equally optimized 2HW fighter. in a fashion similar to the DPR olympics.
i'd like to see level 10-12 versions of both sides. i could just go for a set of level 10s and level 12s
i'd like to see it in this thread.
will someone do the analysis?
Honestly, the real problem here is that people get so few ability score increases as they level up that they feel forced to focus on *one* ability. People end up feeling torn between putting points into the stat that lets them hit harder in combat and the one that makes their class specific abilities better.
I solve the problem in my games by giving stat increases at every even level instead of every fourth level, and players have to divide the points between at least 2 ability scores. If a rogue were to put those points evenly into both str and dex, it would have pretty much the same effect as the weapon finesse and the proposed improved weapon finesse feats.
If you're worried about that making players more powerful, just give them fewer points to point buy with at level 1.
Honestly though, I don't like the idea of a dex to damage feat. That would be putting a whole lot of bonuses into a single stat, it just seems like bad game design to me. Soon monks will want to get both attack and damage from wisdom, and archers will want dex to damage as well. Then you'll have bards arguing that they should have a perminant Charisma to attack and damage feat.
Edit: Wow, I made some edits here, but not fast enough...two people had already posted after me XD
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I think the OP's post was motivated by the discussion in this thread: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/viable1WeaponRogue
I was trying to figure out a viable NON-TWF rogue. I came up with 2 builds both of which use The Elven Curved Sword: (clipped_
Not to be mean, but I've posted before on the non-viability of dex melee character builds.
This character is dead, even with his rare Elven sword.
1) Whirlwind attack 10' on a surprise round is rarely, if ever, going to happen in standard adventuring and is effectively little advantage in combat.
2) This character, through the levels, is more dangerous to the party than he is to his enemies with his insanely low Will save.
3) In the higher levels, he is really depending on Power Attack to keep his damage optimal. At 11th level, a lunge power attack with this character is at a -3 to hit on his to hit not exceeding +18 (assume +4 dex item +2 weapon 2 points in dex). A melee guy averaging hitting AC 25-26 to deliver a whirlwind attack is only going to be effective at hitting unimportant enemies. The damage will be roughly d10 + 5d6 (if sneak attack) + 2 (weapon) + 9 (power attack) + 3 (strength) = an average of 37 (sneak attack) or 17 (normal hit). Your AC -2 for the round due to lunge, which will likely make the rogue's AC 24 (+3 mithral chain shirt, gloves of dex +4, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1), easy fodder for enemies in melee at this level.
But at what cost? Let's say you encounter a big monster and you win initiative and indeed sneak attack it.
Will save is horrible at +4, +6 vs. enchantment ( +3 (base) -1 (Wisdom) +2 (Elf) (+2 resistance) and makes this character incredible charm or domination fodder at 11th level.
Hit points are not good with a 26 AC for a melee character. This character would have roughly 69 hit points at 11th level, assuming that he chose rogue as his favored class and did not choose skill points but pumped his hit points at every opportunity.
Let's simulate 1 round of a fight at this level. You are in a fight with a melee-type enemy. I pulled a random creature out of the Bestiary, a CR12 purple worm. He chooses to attack the rogue this round from 20 feet away, but the rogue has closer due to his melee nature and got in a sneak attack for 37 points of damage and a bleed effect. You won initiative and took the monster down to 82% of its hit points. Note that flat footed, the rogue would need a roll of 9 to even land a sneak attack.
Attack 1: Bite, power attack, no awesome blow. +25 reduced to +20 to hit, needs a roll of 6 to hit. Average roll = Hit. Damage = 4d8+12+10 = average roll = 40 points of damage + grab (+36 grapple CMB). If the rogue does not have Freedom of Movement, he's going to be grappled and swallowed, and will be dead next round unless he's already dead. We aren't done yet.
Attack 2, rogue is down: Sting, power attack, no awesome blow. +25 reduced to +20 to hit, needs a roll of 6 to hit. Average roll = Hit. Damage 2d8+12+10 + poison. Average roll = 31 points of damage + poison (Fort DC25, must save 3 consecutive times during the 6 round effect. The rogue's Fort save will likely be +8 (+6 base, +2 resistance). This means that the rogue will have to roll a 17 each round to not lose d4 strength each round and will have to save 6 rounds in a row unless he rolls 17 three times in a row (which will not happen). This effectively means that in 5 rounds, he will have saved 1 time, and will have taken an average of 10 strength damage.
So in summary, this Dex-melee 11th level build with typical equipment lasts six seconds against a big monster appropriate for the party. He approaches, swings and does damage to the 200 hit point monster, but is knocked to -2 hit points, unconscious, dropping his sword, grappled about to be swallowed (unless freedom of movement) and poisoned (unless immune)with average dice rolls of 10.
yay! another thread for the list:
weapon finesse feat for damage
the above threads go over lots of concerns about game balance (especially Dex to weapon damage).
I will just add my experience with this in game. I used a feat which allows dexterity to replace strength for melee weapon damage for any finessable weapon, with the only prerequisite being weapon finesse, and the only restriction being no two-weapon fighting. It really didn't unbalance things in my experience, just gave a different style of character, which was better defensively but weaker offensively than existing strength based melee builds (taking into account lost feats) or archery builds.
another interesting tidbit came to my attention recently: didn't weapon finesse used to be restricted to a single weapon (like weapon focus) in 3.0? funny how consistently overrated this kind of feat is...
Weapon Finesse is not a feat you design a melee character arround if you want to be dealing maximum damage, but you can use it to make non-optimized characters who are still quite viable or allow a non-melee character to become viable in melee. I think it works quite well for its intended purpose.If your first statement's implications are true, then there would be no need for a rogue sneak attack concept to balance the character in D&D, but it is there. Since damage is king in D&D (e.g. 1hp enemies fight as well as 1000hp enemies), then damage output is the primary concern for any class where spells are not the #1 option.
Weapon Finesse...no, a viable dexterity-based melee build, is a giant wart on D&D 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder alike. Multiple classes and prestige classes were invented with questionable crunchy mechanics to get around/over/through this serious problem, and in PF the problem still exists, especially for multiclass characters.
We also tend to only focus on the feat-laden fighter, but other classes consider this a problem as well, and due to the lack of feats, it is often a larger problem. For instance, if you want a Paladin but do not want Str to be your #2 stat but want to be high Dex, it cannot be done. Mechanically it is a significantly inferior character, no matter how many feats you throw at it in the game.
Likewise, a melee-oriented Dex ranger pales to any other Str-based melee build in the game. Pathfinder Aragorn has to be high strength, not high Dex, especially in point buy.
There is a major difference between a viable build and the optimized build. Weapon finesse is a completely viable build. With it, you will do enough damage to support your party in combat. You can even be a primary damage dealer. You cannot, however, win a DPR contest. Some see this as a problem. I do not. Just about every class has ways to add extra damage other than strength to offset this hit to damage. The power of a dex-based melee build is not in that it deals the most damage, but in the fact that it is more mobile and harder to hit.
You mention dex based rangers and paladins. Paladins give up on other class features by going high dex. That is why they are not as viable. They lose out on the armor, but they can still do significant damage with smite. Don't totally tank str so you can still pick up power attack, and your not even that far off on the damage scale. Rangers get their favored enemy bonuses. Even high str rangers are not that great when compared to other classes when not fighting their favored enemy. The lower str version is only a couple points off. Bards, Rogues, Fighters, and touch-based casters all can bennefit from the feat and be quite effective.
The current rules allow for dex-based characters who don't want to tank strength, just like most str-based characters don't want to tank dex. A str of 14 is what I recomend personally on a dex based melee character, slightly higher than the 12 minimum I recomend for dex on other characters, but still a tersciary stat.
Not to be mean, but I've posted before on the non-viability of dex melee character builds.
This character is dead, even with his rare Elven sword.
Actually you can't Whirlwind Attack in a surprise round. You can only take a standard action in a surprise round. The point in a surprise round is to get into position to Whirlwind Attack in the next round. Given rogue's high initiative bonus, this is likely to result in the enemies still being flat-footed for a Whirlwind in the next round.
I'm not understanding how having a low will save means anything in the context of general survivability. . . when virtually all rogues have a subpar will save? See (circle of) protection from evil, dispel magic, etc.
Also, I'm not sure I understand what "unimportant" enemies are. How do "unimportant enemies" always have the highest AC possible? Typically when you Whirlwind Attack, you're hitting several enemies. If you're fighting an encounter with several enemies that have an AC that you have difficulty hitting, you're typically 1) fighting a deadly or very difficult encounter or 2) poorly geared. It's possible for a DM to construct a "screw melee" encounter with lower CRs, but that shouldn't be typical. . .
How about some thing more in line with power attack.
Accurate attack: -1AC/+2damage Finesse only weapons improves as power attack.
High Dex characters get a damage bonus at the cost of their Dex to AC instead of to hit. Kick it a few times, see what happens.
Commons sense is not a good arguement, think about the gamers you know. Common sense is not a gamer trait angery, crazy, stupid yes,
sensible not so much.
There was a FENCING feat presented on one of these threads, I forget by who, but it was basically like Deadly Aim or Power Attack, but for finesseable weapons. If you used just a one-handed finesseable weapon on it's own you got the +3 per -1 to hit rather than the +2. It was a nice way of making up the difference in damage for the finesse based fighter.
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Heh. thx. I've been looking for help like that.
I could tweak his stats to up wisdom.
I have a few short questions (I don't want to derail this thread... so pm if you like):
1) I don't see how a melee rogue focusing on strength is going to blow that build out of the water. Difference in damage is +6 per hit. The to-hit will be similar. AC would be the same. Are you saying rogues should just not be in melee? Could you elaborate a bit on that?
2) I like a relatively high Charisma on the rogue. Are you saying I need a dump stat to make him workable?
3) I see what you are saying above. If so, what combination of feats do you recommend to the 2hand wep rogue?
4) TWF seems like it is problematic if it requires one to stand still to use it. Right?
5) So... an archer Rogue?Thanks for the help (quite genuinely).
Haha good questions Gelmir. It is always easier to pick apart someone else's idea (i.e. "complain") than to show how it could work much better (i.e. "help") Let me try to offer some things I have observed as a DM running almost all of the published content campaigns since 3rd edition came out and then PF.
(Of course, certain builds are better at certain levels than others, and builds focusing on surviving 1-20 aren't the same as "build me a great x level character.")
1)"Str rogues no better?" Actually in the builds I've seen, it appears that rogues actually need the rogue talents as soon as possible (i.e. talents don't come soon enough!) to help them survive rather than slowing talent progression by dipping in to other classes, like 2 levels of fighter. I wager that a Dex rogue with 13-14 str (point buy) using a scimitar, weapon finesse, and the pathfinder dervish dance feat that allows you to finesse scimitar and add dex damage to scimitar is the ideal offense/damage build for a "Dex" Rogue, and an uber-strength (start with 18), low dex Ranger/Rogue (seems strange, but very true) is the ultimate "Str Rogue."
2) "Cha rogue viable with point buy?" Yes, very much so, but you should then focus on Improved Bluff and UMD to make you a winner. Excellent short range rogue, but not necessarily the maximized damage in melee guy. Good skirmisher/vital strike 1-hand + shield/buckler concept.
3) "How to build optimized 2WF rogue?" See Rgr/Rog idea above. Once you work out the math (because ranger lets you "break the rules and get the feats without qualifying"), it is impressive, but a wonky RP idea unless you pretend that you are Aragorn but you look like Conan.
4) "TWF useless on the move?" This is the classic stand still and get X sneak attacks versus skirmishers using 1 mega vital-strike sneak attack concept. Only problem is that BBEG and big monsters usually have the upper hand in trying to get to you versus you get to them, but can you stand still enough and live? Get a Cloak of Improved displacement for the big fight. (15 rounds of 50% miss chance) and/or improved invisibility if you are a UMD/Arc Trix - type.
5) "Melee Rogue pointless?" Problem is that most campaigns almost wholly feature fights at close range. Certainly 99% of published modules do. Plus, archer rogues lose opportunities to sneak attack as often as melees and put more enemy focus (aggro?) on the few(er) friends actually up in melee. The math and most adventures alike actually favors the flankster rogue who prays that the "tank" gets more attention than he does.
Having the distance bow and hide only helps you if your DM lets you out on the open plains at 600 feet and snipe all day while the other players watch. Usually the question is more about which opponent just flanked the archer...sigh.. :)
I see where you're going with this, I think that, mechanically speaking, both of your suggested feats are too much. They both break the mechanics of the game (see the spoiler at the end for my explanations why I believe this to be true).
Instead, I propoe these new Feats:<clipped>
DM Blake, +1 for your post. Excellent research and thought-provoking mechanics discussion, worthy of addition to a Pathfinder revision.
My only advice would address another smaller mechanics issue, which is clumsily addressed by a separate feat in one of the Pathfinder splatbooks.
For your Greater Weapon Finesse feat, add scimitar to that list. That solves the problem of the dervish concept in Pathfinder and also makes some fantasy novels ring more true. Statistically there is no reason to include rapier and not scimitar. Regardless of how we believe those weapons "would be used" in combat, statistically the scimitar becomes a very inferior weapon with any dex build.
Thanks for the props!
As for scimitars, I am not sure I agree that they should be eligible for Weapon Finesse. Weapon Finesse is for light, quick, precision weapons. REally, the only difference between a scimitar and a longsword is the curve, but the difference between a scimitar and a rapier is the curve and the size and the weight. In my eyes, a scimitar is far more like a longsword than like a rapier.
In that vein, it would be far more appropriate to bump the scimitar damage up to be on par with a longsword (d8 insted of d6) rather than to treat it like a rapier with Weapon Finesse. Of course, if we did that, we would completely obsolete the longsword - who would buy a weapon that does 1d8 19-20/x2 when when they could pay the exact same price for a weapon that does 1d8 18-20/x2?
Unfortunately, there seems no niche for the scimitar. At a d6, the rapier is a superior weapon. At a d8 the scimitar overshadows all the other d8 weapons. Too bad we don't have a d7...
I'm wondering, Thorgrym, if by chance you were thinking of a saber instead of a scimitar? I could definitely see a saber being eligible for Weapon Finesse. Of course, we don't have one in the core weapon list. If you're unfamiliar with it, look at a U.S. Cavalry sword (you know, from the cowboys & indians days). It curves much like a scimitar but has a thin blade, not quite as thin as a rapier, but singificantly thinner than a typical longsword.
The only differences between scimitars and rapiers is that one is piercing and one is slashing. In both long and short run, the difference between those two is negligible to nonexistant.
I allow for finessable scimitars because desert nomads with two flashing weapons is way cool.
The only differences between scimitars and rapiers is that one is piercing and one is slashing. In both long and short run, the difference between those two is negligible to nonexistant.
I allow for finessable scimitars because desert nomads with two flashing weapons is way cool.
I found it odd that sabres aren't available, which ARE fencing weapons, like a rapier, but function and look a lot more like a scimitar (maybe a bit less curvy). Never mind the epee (seriously...move along, nothing to see here...).
5) So... an archer Rogue?
Ugh, the archer rogue. There's one in our party. I'm seriously considering having my Cohort take Greater Feint at her next level so that he can actually do sneak attack damage. Some things require teamwork.
here is my solutionn yet again
Weapon Celerity [Combat Feat]
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse; Dexterity 15 or better
Benefit; While wielding a light melee weapon you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier for your damage rolls as well. Weapons in your off hand gain ½ this bonus.
Special; if you also have the double slice feat, you may add your full dexterity bonus to your off hand instead of 1/2.
Special; This bonus only applies to light melee weapons.so what if it doesn't have the fancy prerequisites that DM blakes version has? you can get it much earlier. and that lack of prerequisites allows dumping str. bit i beleive being able to dump str balances itself out, it cuts you off from a whole feat chain, you take a hit to a few skills that are guaranteed to be used at some point, you take a hit to CMB/CMD, your carrying cpacity takes a hit. dump strength too low and you can't even wear medium/heavy armor anymore. you will be forced to buy a handy haversack/bag of holding which is a significant hit to your wealth by level. dumping str is a whole penalty unto itself. and i designed it to only work with light weapons which balances the feat out further. and common sense is another balancing factor. Dumping STR lower than 8 poses serious issues. these issues are most pronounced in the 5 STR halfling.
I posted Weapon Celerity earlier in this thread and in many others. If you're going to propose something make sure you're not inadvertantly stealing it from someone else.
Other that gripe you make several good points, so no foul.
In a homebrew world it's two feats to use Dex in place of Str. How the heck is this a problem for people? Power Attack makes this a poor option. I've playtested this feat through 4 of my players and it isn't broken. It allows concepts to exist and be viable without punishing a player for not optimizing.
That, is ultimately the point.
In a homebrew world it's two feats to use Dex in place of Str. How the heck is this a problem for people? Power Attack makes this a poor option. I've playtested this feat through 4 of my players and it isn't broken. It allows concepts to exist and be viable without punishing a player for not optimizing.That, is ultimately the point.
I am really currious how power attack affects this at all, since it now can be used with all weapons, and is compatible with finnesse. Sure, you need an Elven Curve Blade to max out the THW bonus, but its not that big of a deal if you are going sword & board or TWF.
here is my solutionn yet again
Weapon Celerity [Combat Feat]
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse; Dexterity 15 or better
Benefit; While wielding a light melee weapon you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier for your damage rolls as well. Weapons in your off hand gain ½ this bonus.
Special; if you also have the double slice feat, you may add your full dexterity bonus to your off hand instead of 1/2.
Special; This bonus only applies to light melee weapons.so what if it doesn't have the fancy prerequisites that DM blakes version has? you can get it much earlier. and that lack of prerequisites allows dumping str. bit i beleive being able to dump str balances itself out, it cuts you off from a whole feat chain, you take a hit to a few skills that are guaranteed to be used at some point, you take a hit to CMB/CMD, your carrying cpacity takes a hit. dump strength too low and you can't even wear medium/heavy armor anymore. you will be forced to buy a handy haversack/bag of holding which is a significant hit to your wealth by level. dumping str is a whole penalty unto itself. and i designed it to only work with light weapons which balances the feat out further. and common sense is another balancing factor. Dumping STR lower than 8 poses serious issues. these issues are most pronounced in the 5 STR halfling.
I posted Weapon Celerity earlier in this thread and in many others. If you're going to propose something make sure you're not inadvertantly stealing it from someone else.
Other that gripe you make several good points, so no foul.
In a homebrew world it's two feats to use Dex in place of Str. How the heck is this a problem for people? Power Attack makes this a poor option. I've playtested this feat through 4 of my players and it isn't broken. It allows concepts to exist and be viable without punishing a player for not optimizing.
That, is ultimately the point.
to hexcaliber
i only stole the name. similar enough concept though. we can say it's a feat that everyone has proposed at one point. there are a few differences between my weapon celerity and yours. mine is slightly nerfed compared to yours. and it also has much less harsh prequisites compared to Blakes version.
Weapon finesse is not the route you go for if you're going the club style of power attack. It's menat for folks like rogues who depend on sneak attack damage for the bulk of thier output and have invested in a high dex.
Weapon Finesse is fine as it is... it's meant for a different approach than heavy handed blades.
So only rogues can use weapon finesse?
That might work for you, but it most certainly doesn't work for everyone.
Weapon Celerity [Combat Feat]
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse; Dexterity 15 or better
Benefit; While wielding a light melee weapon you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier for your damage rolls as well. Weapons in your off hand gain ½ this bonus.
Special; if you also have the double slice feat, you may add your full dexterity bonus to your off hand instead of 1/2.
Special; This bonus only applies to light melee weapons.
No. Just no.
I'm perfectly happy with Dervish Dance - or a feat build on the same premise. But allowing TWF with Dex for both attack and damage is ludicrous:
- It inviolates the niche the Ranger class has (ignoring Dex for TWF purposes to maintain high hit-and-damage) - making a class feature obsolete is a no-no
- It makes rogue TWF go through the roof due to the boost to damage they receive. TWF + sneak attack is plenty enough damage
- Players will dump strength - and the world of fantasy will be flooded with 8 strength weenies. Yes, a couple of feats won't be accessible. But for everything else there is a bag of holding.
- The feat would be compulsory for any character building a weapon finesse character. Not cool.
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Weapon finesse is not the route you go for if you're going the club style of power attack. It's menat for folks like rogues who depend on sneak attack damage for the bulk of thier output and have invested in a high dex.
Weapon Finesse is fine as it is... it's meant for a different approach than heavy handed blades.
So only rogues can use weapon finesse?
That might work for you, but it most certainly doesn't work for everyone.
The title of the thread, the whole discussion is whether weapon finesse is viable. The answer that it is viable for certain classes and combinations. It's also a decent for an archer character, particularly rangers with elven curved swords.
Not all feats are viable for all characters. Power attack is nearly worthless for a wizard.
It inviolates the niche the Ranger class has (ignoring Dex for TWF purposes to maintain high hit-and-damage) - making a class feature obsolete is a no-no
There is no niche here though. TWF Rangers are terrible. They don't have high hit and damage. They don't really have much of anything.
It makes rogue TWF go through the roof due to the boost to damage they receive. TWF + sneak attack is plenty enough damage
I will agree here that it will make rogues do a lot more damage
Players will dump strength - and the world of fantasy will be flooded with 8 strength weenies. Yes, a couple of feats won't be accessible. But for everything else there is a bag of holding.
Again, I don't see it. Strength still has too many benefits, taking two feats to replace it is only worthwhile if you really want to - mechanically speaking? It's not a good switch.
The feat would be compulsory for any character building a weapon finesse character. Not cool.
That's because right now there's only one character who goes weapon finesse, and that's a TWF rogue. Seriously, that feat is useful to only one subset of one class - and they don't even need to take it as a feat. That's pretty terrible.
Weapon finesse is not the route you go for if you're going the club style of power attack. It's menat for folks like rogues who depend on sneak attack damage for the bulk of thier output and have invested in a high dex.
Weapon Finesse is fine as it is... it's meant for a different approach than heavy handed blades.
So only rogues can use weapon finesse?
That might work for you, but it most certainly doesn't work for everyone.
The title of the thread, the whole discussion is whether weapon finesse is viable. The answer that it is viable for certain classes and combinations. It's also a decent for an archer character, particularly rangers with elven curved swords.
Not all feats are viable for all characters. Power attack is nearly worthless for a wizard.
If there's anything this has answered, it's that weapon finesse is viable for one type of one class, not any combinations or any other classes. Even as an archer character, you do such little damage without strength in melee that you may as well serve the bad guy a cup of tea to go with your soothing massage.
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Again, I don't see it. Strength still has too many benefits, taking two feats to replace it is only worthwhile if you really want to - mechanically speaking? It's not a good switch.
Mechanically speaking what benefits does strength have other than damage output?
Anything else?
That spells DUMP STAT to me.
Again, I don't see it. Strength still has too many benefits, taking two feats to replace it is only worthwhile if you really want to - mechanically speaking? It's not a good switch.Mechanically speaking what benefits does strength have other than damage output?
Carrying capacity
Qualifies you for a few feats
A few of the weaker skills Anything else?
That spells DUMP STAT to me.
you forgot these to.
CMB unless you take a 3rd feat.
CMD
strength also gets multiplied by 1.5 when using a 2handed weapon. and gets the most power attack ability.
strength also opens doors to a lot of weapons
it lets you kick doors in
it lets you bend prison bars
oh, there is probably more too.
it looks like it's not really a dump stat after all.
i have to agree with ProfessorCirno on both this and Bo9S