Wow ... so, you take the HIGHEST possible #'s to play with as a "for example" eh?
Well ... sure. IF someone's THAT freakin' broken w/stats - you deserve what ya get.
The straight str guy WILL will by that time in damage and doesn't need to spend 3 feats to get there to "compete" more or less.
Moreover, "agile fighters" just are NOT going to be dumping heavy investment into Str-boosts ... it runs counter to the concept. I suppose you could have "Min/Max the Fighter" show up at your table talking about "I trade the ability to Rhyme for a feat" or some garbage leap up on this option and then start going heavy str and heavy dex ... but, at this point, you KNOW you're dealing with a twink - no someone that wants to play an "agile fighter" concept at all ...
So, against some other build, this one, to get dex damage is dumping/ignoring other stats (wis dump = terrible save, and con-dump = loss of staying power in combat ... neither are good ideas), IF his sole purpose is keeping str as king and adding more dex-based damage on top.
Remember, too, that (Dabbler's at least) dex damage is being added on, but it's not multiplied or anything like that - it's just added on as a one time boon to each hit. It's also not applicable vs. immune to crit-effects types of critters.
So, to do this the character would of necessity dump some other imporant stats to the warrior concept (ie: giving dex a place of prominence JUST to get the damage boon is a piss, poor design given what's been posited for the most part).
Now ... this all said on this feat here, I'd imagine "light armor" and such would be THE armor of choice for a "finesse" build, and so that would mean some more feats in order to up the dodge boons and such that, again, the "agile fighter" gives up for his/her concept. So ... there would likely be even fewer feats available as, again, the character needs to sink feats to upping AC w/out equipment at "Magic-Mart" like everyone else.
Honestly ... the dex-guys are GOING TO PAY A LOT in terms of their limited resources in order to pull off what they do ... if broken stats are an issue - fiat them away as "unreasonable for my table" and be done with it.
If it's a full on swap of dex for str, then str loses entirely it's role in combat ... I'm pretty sure we don't want the "tiny" guy running around murdering folks outright - we *want* to see str matter, but we also want to see Dex validated as a combat stat and option.
I'll agree, though - it's a delicate balance to try and negotiate.
It works until you get a 30 Dex dude with 24 Strength. Adding is hardly a good idea.
[sarcasm]Wow! You can do that with 25 point buy?[/sarcasm]
Seriously though, it works because
(a) it's very unlikely you will get both very high dex and very high strength. It's not impossible, but you are either dealing with insane stats anyway or else something else is really crippled.
(b) the dex damage only applies to finesse weapons, which tend to be low damage and one handed - and even if two-handed it the dex damage doesn't get multiplied as strength damage does.
(c) it works out that with items that enhance attributes the cost means that the one-shot beats the two-shot and gains the most out of it (for example, a strength build with 2-handed weapon gets a +6 item, he gets +9 damage - a build using this feat and with a +4 to dex and strength item [the same cost, roughly] only racks up +8 damage).
Seriously, we've been over this math many times now in this thread - look it up. You have to invest 3 feats in a finesse build like this just to keep up with the damage a two-handed build can crank out.
here is my repoposal (under a new name so it doesn't get mistaken for Hexcaliber's version) Tis a 2 feat investment. a 2 feat investment is pretty hefty if you look at the fact that you only get 10 feats throughout 20 levels before things like race and class. this investment is not broken in the hands of a 2WF rogue. 2WF rogues will be investing 4 additional feats (2WF chain + double slice) to exploit this combo. but TWF rogues are explained in many sources to have huge drawbacks that i obviously need not spell out. Dex fighters become viable with this option, though not truly optimal.
Weapon Expeditiousness [Combat Feat]
Prerequisites; Weapon finesse, Dex 15+
Benefit; when attacking with weapons to which the weapon finesse feat applies, you may add your dexterity modifier instead of your strength modifier to damage rolls. You cannot multiply this bonus by 1.5 by means of wielding an applicable weapon in 2 hands. And this bonus is halved for any applicable weapons in your off hand.
Special; if you have the double slice feat, you may add your full dexterity bonus to damage with your offhand instead of ½ this number.
Special; a rogue may take this feat in place of a rogue talent given that he or she meets the prerequisites
It works until you get a 30 Dex dude with 24 Strength. Adding is hardly a good idea.Actually, we've run the numbers and it works if you restrict the dex damage to needing feats and working with finesse weapons only.
Put it this way, your 18 Str 14 dex fighter with a two-handed sword is doing 2d6+6 damage as base, while your finesse fighter with 14 str and 18 dex with a rapier and adding dex and strength to damage is doing 1d6+6.
Replacing strength with dex can make strength a 'dump stat', which makes no sense for melee combat.
In practice, adding dex to strength plays catch-up with strength only - if you go through the thread above you'll see the number-crunched examples we've worked through.
Yes, you have run the numbers. I have looked at those same numbers and in my opinion it DOESN'T work. In your opinion it does, but that has not settled anything really.
My vote is still firmly against a Dex to Damage feat.
I would not be against allowing Deadly Aim to work with Finesse Weapons however. It is just letting you take Power Attack without a 13 Str really. Limiting it to finesse weapons makes sense.
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yeah, just straight dex to hit and damage instead of str + half dex to damage seems to be more balanced.
i'm not sure a finesse power attack feat is needed though. i mean i always thought that power attack specifically said that it couldn't be used with light and finesse weapons, but i don't see that in the feat. so if you want to be a fighter that stabs people with a rapier and really messed them up, you'll probably still have the str to meet the power attack requirement. now you toss a finesse power attack on a rogue and i think the dex to damage could get a little over powered. you go two-weapon fighting and throw in sneak attacks and you might pass a fighter in damage output. i see this feat as a way to improve dexterous fighters and keep rogue damage output decent for when they can't catch enemies flat-footed.
i hope the designers are paying attention too so maybe we can see this implemented in a new book. ;)
What about my replacement feat LordTwig? Where acquiring Power Attack still requires a 13 strength so one can't completely dump strength.
(bear in mind that being a dex combatant requires 2 feats for their concept, and that's assuming a one-handed rapier type style. If they want another style they need yet another feat in the form of Exotic Weapon Proficiency Elven Curve Blade or Two Weapon Fighting)
I am still against it. In the case of replacing Str for Dex, Str is now completely worthless. Plus I just don't see how a 6 Str 18 Dex Halfing can do as much damage as a Fighter with an 18 Str. It just doesn't make sense to me. He may be nimble, but he isn't going to hit that hard. Could he kill someone? Sure, a normal, average person has about 4hp. Make that 6 Str Halfling a Rogue and he can sneak up on the guy and kill him in one shot.
People keep talking about how Str is King, but completely ignore the Base Attack Bonus. Str is not king, BAB is king. Sure Str might give you +10 to hit with a 30 Str, but a BAB of +15 not only gives you an extra 25% chance to hit, it gives you two extra attacks. Or if you have a Dex of 30 and Weapon Finesse, that will give you +10 too. I don't think that Str should be considered the King. Maybe a General, while Dex is the advisor that has the King's ear. ;-)
Of course what you guys do in your own game is your own business, and if it works for you then great! But, in my opinion, such a feat does not belong in the official rules.
You keep saying that. "It makes strength worthless, it makes strength worthless, it makes strength worthless......." But I don't understand how it makes strength worthless, and obviously neither do my players.
Three out of four times overall, my players have opted to use strength instead of dexterity, because of feats. In the case of a non-human non-fighter who wants to two-hand a weapon, that's saving them three out of ten feats. That's 30% of their feats wasted trying to keep up with the strength guys who get access to their stuff for free.
I guess I should clarify. It makes Str worthless for those that take the two feats. Where do you get three from? A Fighter has 20 feats, and many other classes get bonus feats of some kind, Rogue and Monk especially, both of which can make tremendous use of replacing Str with Dex.
Also, would it stack with the Duelist's Precise Strike? If so, there is an extra 10 damage for the rapier wielding Dex fighter. With a 30 Dex that is +20 to damage.
So a rapier wielding Duelist and a greatsword wielding Paladin (the Paladin took the mount, not the weapon bond) are fighting an Iron Golem. Both with +5 weapons. The Duelist has 14 Str and 30 Dex. The Paladin has 30 Str and 14 Dex.
To Hit: Both BAB+15
Damage: Duelist 1d6+25, Paladin 2d6+20.
So the Paladin swipes his greatsword and takes a chunk out of the golem. Then the Duelist thrusts his rapier into the golem and leaves a small hole. Somehow the Duelist has done more damage. Huh?
Well, he hit him in a vital join! I hear you say. Fine, but realize the Dex fighter is now better than the Str fighter.
I understand you don't like the idea of dextrous fighters being effective, it's your call LordTwig, but please trust me when I say that this does NOT invalidate strength in any way. It's one alternative option.
Hell, it even prevents complete dumping of strength because you need 13 strength for power attack. That 6 strength halfling fighter is going to be dealing a lot less damage than an 18 strength fighter because he doesn't qualify for Power Attack.
I DO like the idea of effective dextrous fighters. They already ARE effective. You just don't seem to think so. Obviously we are not going to agree on this.
It looks like I am getting sucked into the debate again. I didn't post in this thread again just to be a naysayer. I had originally posted only to put my vote in for allowing Deadly Aim to finesse weapons. I think that allows a dexterous fighter to take advantage of the Power Attack feat without having to break his concept.
You keep saying that. "It makes strength worthless, it makes strength worthless, it makes strength worthless......." But I don't understand how it makes strength worthless, and obviously neither do my players.
Three out of four times overall, my players have opted to use strength instead of dexterity, because of feats. In the case of a non-human non-fighter who wants to two-hand a weapon, that's saving them three out of ten feats. That's 30% of their feats wasted trying to keep up with the strength guys who get access to their stuff for free.
I guess I should clarify. It makes Str worthless for those that take the two feats. Where do you get three from? A Fighter has 20 feats, and many other classes get bonus feats of some kind, Rogue and Monk especially, both of which can make tremendous use of replacing Str with Dex.
Also, would it stack with the Duelist's Precise Strike? If so, there is an extra 10 damage for the rapier wielding Dex fighter. With a 30 Dex that is +20 to damage.
So a rapier wielding Duelist and a greatsword wielding Paladin (the Paladin took the mount, not the weapon bond) are fighting an Iron Golem. Both with +5 weapons. The Duelist has 14 Str and 30 Dex. The Paladin has 30 Str and 14 Dex.
To Hit: Both BAB+15
Damage: Duelist 1d6+25, Paladin 2d6+20.So the Paladin swipes his greatsword and takes a chunk out of the golem. Then the Duelist thrusts his rapier into the golem and leaves a small hole. Somehow the Duelist has done more damage. Huh?
Well, he hit him in a vital join! I hear you say. Fine, but realize the Dex fighter is now better than the Str fighter.
...I understand you don't like the idea of dextrous fighters being effective, it's your call LordTwig, but please trust me when I say that this does NOT invalidate strength in any way. It's one alternative option.
Hell, it even prevents complete dumping of strength because you need 13 strength for power attack. That 6 strength halfling fighter is going
Actually, the DEX Duelist would be "better" than the STR Paladin when the Paladin ain't pityin' a foo with his Smite (being able to would bump his damage by... I believe the technical term is a "crapton"... which would be a nice +15 in this case, assuming only levels in Paladin were taken, and a super tasty +30 if Evil outsider or dragon, or an undead).
What I want to know is how is the Duelist managing to have 10 levels of Duelist at level 15? By my understanding of the prereqs, there's be 9 levels of duelist there, max. The class used to get into Duelist also matters, too. If those were fighter levels, there's likely another 3 damage to roll in there from Weapon Training and Weapon Specialization.
How would the Duelist compare to an equal level Fighter? If both have a BAB of 15, THW Fighter would probably be doing 2d4/2d6+27 damage to the (Fighter/) Duelist's 1d6+27.
Oh snap.
The straight Fighter also has an extra +3 to hit on the (Fighter/) Duelist thanks to Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Trainings. And more bonus feats to do more things with, such as critical feats, since the Duelist has prerequisite feats and getting DEX to damage requires another. So they break even on static damage bonuses normally, but the Fighter's weapon is bigger and can do more damage, he has a slightly better chance to hit, and when Power Attack gets tossed in, he handsomely defeats the Duelist in the damage contest thanks to using a two-hander.
Basically, I don't think your comparison there is anywhere near valid because it's done in a vacuum and doesn't consider a lot of factors.
Yes, you have run the numbers. I have looked at those same numbers and in my opinion it DOESN'T work. In your opinion it does, but that has not settled anything really.
If you really feel that 1.5 extra points of damage the dex+strength build managed with an elven curve blade and took four extra feats to achieve over the pure strength based fighter with the greatsword is broken, you are of course entitled to your opinion.
Bang-a-rang, Scyllis!!!
Well done!
:-D
You know ... I'm getting into the Fighter/Duelist vs. Paladin thing and man ... I can't come up w/the #'s you had going at ALL, Twig.
Here's me:
Fighter/Duelist Breakdown
Fighter - 6/Duelist 9 = minimum buy-in (w/the class MOST specialized for melee damage), and the MOST amount of PrC allowed given the +15 bab implication (ie: you set it at +15, so that's where I am).
Ok, so from the fighter, he's got 4 bonus feats from his levels, but 3 of 'em are going to finesse fighting in the first place (assume Agile Maneuvers or something taken to make him as fully *dex* fighter based as possible for the 1-handed guy, no exotics, though as it doesn't seem you had exotics in play).
So, 14 str = +2 str bonus. Wpn Training would only net him a +1/+1 at 6th level, and dex of 30 = +10 to damage. From these sources I'm adding up a total damage boon of +13, and then a +5 wpn on top, so +17. Then, hopefully, he'll have wpn focus and wpn specializiation, to he's got a net +2 on his "to hit" chance, and another +2 to his damage, so he's at +19
On the Duelist, it's a +9 damage to anything that *can* be critted, and if it can't, then +0. So, given a best case scenario situation it would be a +28 total (not the 25). So, by my figure it comes out 3 points higher. Now, keep in mind a duelist ALSO only gains his bonus w/NOTHING in his off hand and a piercing weapon in the main hand only. HE CAN NOT USE A 2-HANDED WEAPON AT ALL!!!! (at least, he can't use it AND gain ANY benefit from his PrC for that round/encounter/whatever depending on what's happeneing). This in mind, this "curve blade" nonsense is THE worst choice ever for a duelist (sorry kyrt) as he can NOT utilize it's advantages without sacrificing the entire point of his PrC levels (and with 9 vs. 6 that's a majority investment).
Now, he *could* take Power Attack as well, just for ha-ha's and since we're messing around trying to twink damage out - why not? He's got the 14 str, but even taking it, he'll only get the baseline tradeoff for this investment. So, assuming he uses a max power attack as well, he'll take a -4 to hit and pick up a +8 to damage, so now it's a +36 total damage. Consider the base weapon itself having a 1d6 rating and AT MOST it's hitting 42 damage for his best damage roll, or 37 for his worst.
Paladin
Right, well ... since it seems straight class, I'll keep it the same way as it can hit the only req of +15 bab easy enough.
Now ... the paladin isn't optimal for damage. There ... I've said it. outside of the smite, he has NOTHING helping *him* deal damage. However, when he has Aura of Justice running on his mates so that THEY all get to smite some bad-guys ... well, it's a MASSIVE buff that helps deal TREMENDOUS damage. It won't do much for him, though - and a LOT of his features work in a similar manner - buffs and such.
Keep in mind that the Paladin by level 15 has full casting from levels 1-4 spells in the amount of (3/2/2/1) and can use these things. Since the point seems to be "best case scenario" let's do this to see how high the Pally can get pumped.
Now, base stats, he's at 30 str and 14 dex and he's 2-handing a great sword. 2-handing ALONE grants him a +15 to damage. Unlike a fighter-base, though, he doesn't have anything else damage-specific to help him boost and beef. He's feat-poor, so taking the feat-chains to get a measly +2 from his dex to damage seems a bad idea, so we won't do that. Instead, maybe stuff like the vital strike chain would be better ideas for him (especially w/a mount for some cherry-pickin' reason you settled on --- j/k). So, we add on his +5 from the weapon, and *poof* we get the +20 you had from before.
Consider Power Attack now, 2-handers get a 3:1 return, so the pally's getting a +12 boon for his -4 to hit tradeoff. Not bad. So, your pally is now up to a +32 for his damage effort. Now, add in the base weapon's rating of 2d6 and at best, it's 44 damage in total, or 34 at worst.
Your guy's weaker build works best at dealing damage optimally.
Now, let's take this same guy and really "Paladin" him out - ie: using some of his class-features (dur! If the Duelist gets 'em, why can't he?).
If Divine Favor is up, he's getting a +3/+3 to hit and damage (ups his to hit BETTER than the duelist and ups the damage to 47 total). It has only a 1 min duration, but still ... good benefit, and it's good for about 10 rounds of combat.
Bull's Strength is up, he gets a +4 to his str for 12 minutes - nice long duration buff that could be applied a while before the golem shows up. So, his str boon goes from +15 to +18 now. His damage would rise again to 47 and this time it lasts longer. It can be combined w/the DF cast just before entering combat and now it *could* become a +50 damage situation.
I'd suggest Greater Magic Weapon on a lesser blessed weapon - but you already handed out a +5er for nothing, so why bother? Good, LONG duration of 1 hour/level, so for the Pally it's a 12 hour buff ... yeah. I like me some of THAT action!
For 4th level, I'd suggest "holy sword" but you set 'em up vs. a golem, so the boon won't matter, and he's already got a +5er.
So, yeah ... Bull's Strength is a reasonable before hand buff to be up anyway, and the Divine Favor is easily enough cast just before entering battle. I think both are perfectly *fair* to grant the Pally as they *are* class abilities. Either one, and especially BOTH fully tip odds in favor EVEN of a paladin that's been cherry-picked to be non-useful against a golem target.
Now, make it an "evil" target of any kind, and Pally can smite (gaining probably a fair Cha boon to hit say +2-3 at least by 15th level I'd imagine), and another +15 to damage (75 damage now if the 2 spells are up and active, 72 otherwise).
If it's also "evil" then the pally can also use his "Holy Sword" and keep the +5 to hit/damage AND pick up an extra 2d6 to his damage on top (So ... another 12 at best for 87, or the low figure of 77 minimum).
If it's a dragon, outsider, etc, it just gets worse. {102 best or 92 worst}.
NOW, let's consider that you went for "optimal damage build" and used a Paladin, but chose the freakin' mount. What's up with THAT? If the goal is "damage dealing" you need to go w/Pally and a weapon bond. Why? Because it lets you ADD EFFECTS onto those that already exist on the weapon. You set up a scenario w/a +5 weapon base, so the Pally's bond is going to let him pick up 5 extra bits of "enhancements" to just layer onto his sword - so let's just consider what we can do w/+5 "free" weapon enchantments.
Scenario #1:
Bane (+1) = instantly bane the golem as a +1 enchantment to get a +2d6 damage to it.
Flame, Frost, Shock, (+1 each) and (since they're NOT immune to crits anymore) Keen (+1) - net gain of doubling the crit threat range (and damage delivered via crits), and a +3 more d6's of damage.
All 5 spent net effect ==> +5d6 damage/strike, and an extended crit range.
Scenario #2:
Flame, Frost, Shock, and Thundering, AND Bane (+1 each)
All 5 spent net effect ==> +6d6 damage/strike.
Scenario #3:
Keen (+1) - to up the crit range
Flaming Burst and Icy Burst (+2 each)- +2d6 damage, AND +2d10 additional on crits.
All 5 spend net effect ==> +2d6 damage, extended crit range, AND a potential +2d10 for crits
Scenario #4:
Vorpal (+5) - yeah ... +5 VORPAL ... chew on THAT for a bit and see how it tastes. Golems are no longer immune to crits so ... yeah.
Scenario #5:
Dancing (+4) - just let it go out there and start fighting all by it's lonesome - a +5 floating greatsword!
Bane (+1) - target the golem again for another juicy +2d6 to damage.
All 5 spent net effect ==> turn the sword loose on round 1 of your action as a standard action, and let it attack for you using your full bab and it's own +5 etc. Then, cast Holy Sword on your back-up weapon (say a longsword or short sword - which ever) on round 2, and then go to town 2-handing your "back up" weapon that's now a +5 Holy weapon. Holy is lost on the golem, BUT the pally's now got a floating +5 Greatsword of Golem Bane doing his bidding and another +5 weapon in-hand and ready to be 2-handed against this golem. The dancing weapon uses his bab, so it has the same # of attacks he has, AND he gets his own regular # of attacks ... 8-0
*Who's* doing more damage again???
I forget ...
My suggestion for a Dex based power attack type feat was meant to be used instead of Dex to damage, not in combination with it. Together they'd probably more or less make Str a dump stat for cleverly constructed melee characters. Longwinded mathematical studies aside, if you substitute Dex for Str in both attack rolls and damage rolls then there are very few good reasons to invest in Str.
Anyhow, even without a Dex based Power Attack it probably isn't that hard to get a 14 Str to go with your 18-20 starting Dex. That's enough to let you use the regular Power Attack. This would probably be a good fit for all the would be Musashis (or maybe he was a Ranger with favored enemy human)
I doubt Dex to damage would break most games in some dramatic way, but it has the potential to make a lot of Str based builds as suboptimal as folks are saying Dex based builds currently are (and I'm not sure I even completely buy into the fact they're that bad).
Another thing that worries me a little is that part of the justification for the new bonuses seems to be that "Str based" weapons do more base damage than finesse weapons. There are a significant number of cases where this doesn't add up, natural attacks and a monk's unarmed strike come to mind. Monks do high base damage with unarmed strikes and can finesse them. A monk who can dump Str is going to be better in almost every way (grappling possibly excepted) than a monk who invests heavily in it.
I sometimes enjoy playing Str based monks as a character concept, so I'd find this disappointing. These characters have been very effective for me in the past, and I'm sure they'd continue to be playable, but they'd be noticeably subpar compared to Dex based monks. I can't think of 2 feats a Monk could take which would be better than consolidating his attack and damage bonuses into Dex. Heck, maybe I should change my tack, say that Wis based monks "aren't viable", and petition for Wis to hit and damage (on top of Str even). I suspect people would find that unreasonable, but maybe I'm mistaken.
Wildshaped druids could run into similar issues with Dex fueled natural attacks plus AC and Reflex saves outclassing Str based natural attacks. 3.5 druids were notorious for dumping Str since they could get it from wildshape. A Dex to damage druid could still afford to dump it. Granted, you'd still need a 13 for Power Attack, but a Str 13 Dex 30+ PC has a world of advantages over a Str 30+ Dex 13 PC. There's no feat I know of for +9 Reflex saves or (for most druids) +9 AC. Not even two feats will cover it, and that isn't to mention +9 initiative. He who goes first is at a great advantage especially in high level combats. Of course PCs don't start out with 30 in a stat, but even 20 vs 13 can make a huge difference at low levels.
EDIT: I forgot to comment directly that comparing a Duelist to a Paladin doesn't seem very useful since they're quite different classes. I'm more interested in Fighter vs Fighter, Monk vs Monk, Druid vs Druid, etc.
Longwinded mathematical studies aside, if you substitute Dex for Str in both attack rolls and damage rolls then there are very few good reasons to invest in Str.
Umm ... what? How? Didn't I just put up a str-based NON-specialized type out-damaging the HELL out of a dex-based fighter?
If you want damage - LOTS of it, the solution is to beef your strength a LOT AND go 2-handed.
Where do you see Str as irrelevant in the above situations?
I doubt Dex to damage would break most games in some dramatic way, but it has the potential to make a lot of Str based builds as suboptimal as folks are saying Dex based builds currently are (and I'm not sure I even completely buy into the fact they're that bad).
No ... seriously. This simply does NOT happen.
Another thing that worries me a little is that part of the justification for the new bonuses seems to be that "Str based" weapons do more base damage than finesse weapons. There are a significant number of cases where this doesn't add up, natural attacks and a monk's unarmed strike come to mind. Monks do high base damage with unarmed strikes and can finesse them. A monk who can dump Str is going to be better in almost every way (grappling possibly excepted) than a monk who invests heavily in it.
Wow ... natural attacks ... the 1d3/1d2 of medium/small pc's respectively? And Monks? You're worried about a potential power boost ... for MONKS!?!?!?
*so confused with that ...*
Monks can use ALL the help they can get. Always ... and this *still* doesn't invalidate the str-guy build. The dex-monk is especially going to need to spend 3 feats JUST to make his concept work. Since you bring up maneuvers, BOTH need Defensive Training or whatever it's called (monks don't get a CMD boon - only CMB - which is odd in and of itself). So that's 4 feats the dex monkey monk is going to need vs. the 1 of the str-based guy. {finesse, improved version - for damage, defensive training and agile maneuvers = all needed to fully replace the role of str and become and "effective" melee maneuver type of character - that HURTS for a monk with very few feat choices.}
He/she's going to need to be at least what 7th level before being able to fully realize the gaps in needing strength for combat options - which is a LONG time to be vulnerable and dependent upon feats outside of your reach.
I sometimes enjoy playing Str based monks as a character concept, so I'd find this disappointing. These characters have been very effective for me in the past, and I'm sure they'd continue to be playable, but they'd be noticeably subpar compared to Dex based monks. I can't think of 2 feats a Monk could take which would be better than consolidating his attack and damage bonuses into Dex. Heck, maybe I should change my tack, say that Wis based monks "aren't viable", and petition for Wis to hit and damage (on top of Str even). I suspect people would find that unreasonable, but...
Why would having 3 more feats and being fully realized w/NO weaknesses be "unplayable" as a concept from levels 1-7 for you?
*so, so, SO confused ...*
EDIT as an aside 3.5 did have a feat that substituted wis "to hit" but that was as far as it went, nor would I support wis as a damage dealing source ... fyi.
My suggestion for a Dex based power attack type feat was meant to be used instead of Dex to damage, not in combination with it. Together they'd probably more or less make Str a dump stat for cleverly constructed melee characters. Longwinded mathematical studies aside, if you substitute Dex for Str in both attack rolls and damage rolls then there are very few good reasons to invest in Str.
Except we've already crunched the numbers and shown the working, and it just doesn't happen.
The list of feats I suggested included applying Deadly Aim to finesse weapons but not combinable with Power Attack. That gives you the same penalty/bonus pay-off as power attack with one handed weapon. Because in my system the strength and dex bonuses stack, strength does not become a dump-stat (strength replacement would allow this, but I don't advocate that) because you need to do without a penalty, and any bonus IS a bonus. it just means an 18 dex 14 str fighter is almost as viable as a 14 dex 18 str fighter. I say almost because you still have to blow a lot of feats to achieve it.
My suggestion for a Dex based power attack type feat was meant to be used instead of Dex to damage, not in combination with it. Together they'd probably more or less make Str a dump stat for cleverly constructed melee characters. Longwinded mathematical studies aside, if you substitute Dex for Str in both attack rolls and damage rolls then there are very few good reasons to invest in Str.Except we've already crunched the numbers and shown the working, and it just doesn't happen.
The list of feats I suggested included applying Deadly Aim to finesse weapons but not combinable with Power Attack. That gives you the same penalty/bonus pay-off as power attack with one handed weapon. Because in my system the strength and dex bonuses stack, strength does not become a dump-stat (strength replacement would allow this, but I don't advocate that) because you need to do without a penalty, and any bonus IS a bonus. it just means an 18 dex 14 str fighter is almost as viable as a 14 dex 18 str fighter. I say almost because you still have to blow a lot of feats to achieve it.
AND ... the dex doesn't get the 2-handed multiplier boon that Str *does* get.
:-D
Edit: Damn ... just noticed that I went 1 too high on the Paladin bond enhancements - it should only get as high a +4 (not +5 as I applied them). It's a difference of 1d6 damage too high in most cases, though.
So again it looks like Devilkiller and I look at the numbers and see one thing, and Dabbler and The Speaker in Dreams see something else entirely. I really can't claim that Devilkiller and I are right and Dabbler and Speaker is wrong as it seems to just be a matter of opinion.
Just to clear up some misunderstanding, I did not set the BAB at +15, it was supposed to be BAB plus 15. Regardless of what level you made the characters, they would have +15 to whatever their BAB was. So if they were level 15, they would have +30, if they were level 20, they would have +35, etc.
I wasn't trying to gimp the paladin, I was just trying to remove other factors from the comparison. Fighters keep being brought up as a standard, but I don't think they are the standard anymore. Fighters are now the exception, not the rule. A paladin should do less damage than a Fighter except against Evil creatures. A ranger should do less except against his favored enemy. A barbarian should be doing less except when raging. Etc.
Maybe we should be comparing all classes against the NPC warrior instead? If they can't do any better than the warrior, THEN they are broken and need fixing.
I feel like I should jump in and throw in some more crunch.
Okay so to point out every one of my builds I made had power attack on the list, because it is shiny.
Now then I want to take a look at building a super muscle mensch.
lets try 25 purchase, I usually roll but I want to use something that other people can except as probable.
This will a character dex based fighter, but shooting for the top with his might as well for a dps unit.
STR: 17 (13)
DEX: 18 (17)
CON: 14 (5)
INT: 7 (-4)
WIS: 8 (-2)
CHA: 7 (-4)
Now then we will throw the +2 for human lets say to his dex
so 20 dex.
during leveling he is going to throw it all to dex
Later he will buy a +6 to all physical stats, and maybe an item to boost his wisdom, as well as a cloak of protection.
tomes for dex and str +5 each
so now at finish he will cap out at
STR: 28
DEX: 36
CON: 20
anyways this combat monster is the cap for stats he will never be all that useful in mental stats. and he is alright in his con, he has a +13 dex mod so armor is not looking to available so he will probably go with bracers of armor. so with a finesse weapon (I am going to ignore the two handed ones for the moment and just work purely out of core, working on getting the campaign setting book)
so +9 from str to damage, and +13 from dex leaving him with 22 against things that are affected by precision damage. that is a nice boost.
his weapon will do 1d6 damage so 1d6+22, if he is a fighter we then add in 4 for weapon training, and +4 for weapon specialization, and greater. so now we have 1d6+30 damage. of course if he is going for DPS he is going to take the vital strike tree, and the power attack tree.
so he can add +12 to his damage 1d6+42. so he is now dealing 4d6+42, I just reread vital strike and now I am sad because for some reason I thought that it allowed strength to be multiplied as well it is only dice. so actually my builds up top all lose a lot of power.
Either way, this guy can hit hard, and is very precise. Of course this will be the munchkin in your party.
So again it looks like Devilkiller and I look at the numbers and see one thing, and Dabbler and The Speaker in Dreams see something else entirely. I really can't claim that Devilkiller and I are right and Dabbler and Speaker is wrong as it seems to just be a matter of opinion.
Just to clear up some misunderstanding, I did not set the BAB at +15, it was supposed to be BAB plus 15. Regardless of what level you made the characters, they would have +15 to whatever their BAB was. So if they were level 15, they would have +30, if they were level 20, they would have +35, etc.
I wasn't trying to gimp the paladin, I was just trying to remove other factors from the comparison. Fighters keep being brought up as a standard, but I don't think they are the standard anymore. Fighters are now the exception, not the rule. A paladin should do less damage than a Fighter except against Evil creatures. A ranger should do less except against his favored enemy. A barbarian should be doing less except when raging. Etc.
Maybe we should be comparing all classes against the NPC warrior instead? If they can't do any better than the warrior, THEN they are broken and need fixing.
Nah - THAT's crazy talk right there! ;-)
As for the bab+15 ... I'm not even following this ... are you talking about "to hit" or something?
I thought the complaint was damage?
{to hit would *already* work out as a boon for wpn finesse anyway - that's what it does ...}
So again it looks like Devilkiller and I look at the numbers and see one thing, and Dabbler and The Speaker in Dreams see something else entirely. I really can't claim that Devilkiller and I are right and Dabbler and Speaker is wrong as it seems to just be a matter of opinion.
Just to clear up some misunderstanding, I did not set the BAB at +15, it was supposed to be BAB plus 15. Regardless of what level you made the characters, they would have +15 to whatever their BAB was. So if they were level 15, they would have +30, if they were level 20, they would have +35, etc.
I wasn't trying to gimp the paladin, I was just trying to remove other factors from the comparison. Fighters keep being brought up as a standard, but I don't think they are the standard anymore. Fighters are now the exception, not the rule. A paladin should do less damage than a Fighter except against Evil creatures. A ranger should do less except against his favored enemy. A barbarian should be doing less except when raging. Etc.
Maybe we should be comparing all classes against the NPC warrior instead? If they can't do any better than the warrior, THEN they are broken and need fixing.
Okay so I am working towards a goal, dex fighter can kill something big and scary just like his cousin two handed fighter. Statistically speaking two weapon fighter uses two 1d6 weapons with +1 1/2 str between the two of them, and two handed uses a 2d6 weapon with +1 and a half str damage. Sword and bored is not planning to deal as much damage and likes to shield bash. So we finally get to the non optimal the stilt man of the family if you will. The fighter who wants to be a duelist. He looks at one weapon the two weapon fighter uses and says I am going to use just this. He stands there looking proud at his claim.
Now then the other siblings try to talk him out of it, but to no avail.
So he heads off using weapon finesse, and a lower str than most of his brothers. He finds he can't do the damage they deal, he doesn't have the protection they have, and that he gets kicked around a lot.
Now then to paraphrase Monte Cook, on the topic of the 3.0 PHB (because I do not have a perfect memory) "I wanted to have a learning curve, some things just won't be as good as the others." It had the general idea of that, sometimes your favorite idea just isn't viable, yes each one of the older brothers had a viable plan, two weapon builds more on his crits, while shield has some of his bashing and his high ac, lastly two handed smashes things good.
But one handed he gets kicked to the side of the road.
I have no problem adding half dex to damage. My numbers, and contacts in the darker realms (New Jersey) tell me the numbers are reasonably sound I will have to re-do them because of the vital strike mess up.
Still with half dex to damage most of them took a jump to catching up, or at least dealing enough damage to be affective.
Full dex to damage I am only okay with if it is nailed to weapon finesse, and maybe ranged weapons at some point, and that it is precision damage. Otherwise it will be very powerful and create a major shift, because remember class there is trying to be good at something and then there is just being greedy. With the draw backs of making it precision damage, and only for weapon finesse weapons, which I think we had the half dex only for weapon finesse weapons as well, will make it a more balanced ability.
Lastly if we swap Dex for Str yes STR will get ignored more often, until you notice that no one can remove the Iron gate that stands in your path, because your craft GM set it so there was no lock to pick Muhahahaha.
STR needs to be somewhat important, but to lower its standing to a secondary focus leads to situations like most rogues I have seen played
A lot of them have low STR because they do lots of precision damage, on the other hand they still pick up some STR, because we GM's love elementals and Oozes they are our good chums.
Now then I will come back and I want to see some ideas for what each of you wants to see these feats accomplish what is our outlying goal at this point, yes we want it to balance but what do we really want it to balance with, what would you be okay balancing it with, and of course have some fun with your thoughts.
So again it looks like Devilkiller and I look at the numbers and see one thing, and Dabbler and The Speaker in Dreams see something else entirely. I really can't claim that Devilkiller and I are right and Dabbler and Speaker is wrong as it seems to just be a matter of opinion.
Just to clear up some misunderstanding, I did not set the BAB at +15, it was supposed to be BAB plus 15. Regardless of what level you made the characters, they would have +15 to whatever their BAB was. So if they were level 15, they would have +30, if they were level 20, they would have +35, etc.
I wasn't trying to gimp the paladin, I was just trying to remove other factors from the comparison. Fighters keep being brought up as a standard, but I don't think they are the standard anymore. Fighters are now the exception, not the rule. A paladin should do less damage than a Fighter except against Evil creatures. A ranger should do less except against his favored enemy. A barbarian should be doing less except when raging. Etc.
Maybe we should be comparing all classes against the NPC warrior instead? If they can't do any better than the warrior, THEN they are broken and need fixing.
Well the fighter dies the best round-on-round damage vs any opponent. Paladins do better smiting, rangers fighting their favoured enemies, barbarians raging, but fighters turn out the best average round-on-round.
Now if you are making a finesse fighter pimped out to do the most damage they can in order to get close to the damage output of a pimped out two-handed or two weapon fighter, and then compare them to a paladin that isn't optimised for damage, the answer is a no-brainer and it's pretty much a straw-man argument from that point onwards. That's why we use the fighter as the yardstick, not because everybody plays fighters but because we know how the other combat classes measure against the fighter.
If you want to talk serious numbers, we can do this, but serious numbers aren't numbers you just think up off the top of your head. They are figures that you can justify and make sense of and can show to everyone.
Funny thing. You keep crunhing damage numbers and all that, and I still don't see it. All you guys are doing is putting Damage there and saying that the Dex guy with a ONE handed weapon deals a "little bit" less damage than the TWO-handed fighter... hum, ok.
The funny thing is that you are not saying that the Dex has way more AC, Initiative king, LOTS of good skills and a pretty great Reflex save while the strength guy has.... wow, damage.
As I said ealier I'm not against Dex to damage, I'm completelly against adding, against, it replaciong Str totally (with the Dex Power attack), and against it working with all finessable weapons. If Paizo made a feat like this, with some heavy pre req, I don't see how you guys can REALLY think this is balanced. The IDEA isn't terrible, the way most of you are putting it, is. And using BASE Ability scores will ALWAYS work better for you, when you put the max there, things get creepy.
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i don't think anyone has mentioned the ac, saves, initiative, ect because we know that's going to get effected, and we have a pretty good idea how it will turn out for each class. the thing that's in question is the actual damage output. that's the key point that needs to be balanced to make this work. if a straight dex to damage just starts destroying the normal str builds, then there's a problem. now the dex power attack stuff needs to be looked into deeper, but i personally don't think it's necessary.
also, kyrt, i was the one that suggested str + half dex to damage. i threw it out there as part of a chain for finesse. it looks like even with having to spend 3 feats to get that, it's a little unbalanced though. just dex to damage seems to be the best solution. now we just need the designers to get a good look at it and give it a through testing.
I don't think the dex+str mod method is unbalanced. I've been crunching the numbers using a feat that stacks full dex bonus to damage along with strength, and it seems to deliver pretty consistent results that are not 'broken' so far as I can see.
The two points to consider:
1) Will the modifiers added from strength and dexterity be greater than the modifer of just strength? Considered in isolation you might say yes. But in practice, no, because the strength modifier is increased by 50% for a two-handed weapon and it is harder to get two high scores than one. It works out that an 18 matches two 16s both point-wise (actually the 16s cost a bit more more) and when crunching the numbers (4 x 150% = 3 + 3). What you have left is the larger weapon dealing more damage, so even if the static bonus could be made larger, you still have the advantage in the strength build.
2) Can you increase the scores by items to offset this? Again, in practice this is hard to do, because to get an item that increases one score is cheaper than one that increases two. It does plateau out at +6, but then that only leaves a 3 point advantage at most to the finesse build over the strength build, and at a level where the +50% advantage of power attack more than compensates for it.
Edit: I did have a number crunched example in PDF to upload but my mediafire account has gone loopy. I'll try it tomorrow; but the upshot was comparing a fighter/duelist build to a greatsword fighter, the greatsword fighter has the edge in damage at low to mid level, at high level the duelist is ahead by a few points but is behind by 10-15% to hit, and the fighter has a crapton more feats to play with.
I don't think the dex+str mod method is unbalanced. I've been crunching the numbers using a feat that stacks full dex bonus to damage along with strength, and it seems to deliver pretty consistent results that are not 'broken' so far as I can see.
The two points to consider:
1) Will the modifiers added from strength and dexterity be greater than the modifer of just strength? Considered in isolation you might say yes. But in practice, no, because the strength modifier is increased by 50% for a two-handed weapon and it is harder to get two high scores than one. It works out that an 18 matches two 16s both point-wise (actually the 16s cost a bit more more) and when crunching the numbers (4 x 150% = 3 + 3). What you have left is the larger weapon dealing more damage, so even if the static bonus could be made larger, you still have the advantage in the strength build.2) Can you increase the scores by items to offset this? Again, in practice this is hard to do, because to get an item that increases one score is cheaper than one that increases two. It does plateau out at +6, but then that only leaves a 3 point advantage at most to the finesse build over the strength build, and at a level where the +50% advantage of power attack more than compensates for it.
Edit: I did have a number crunched example in PDF to upload but my mediafire account has gone loopy. I'll try it tomorrow; but the upshot was comparing a fighter/duelist build to a greatsword fighter, the greatsword fighter has the edge in damage at low to mid level, at high level the duelist is ahead by a few points but is behind by 10-15% to hit, and the fighter has a crapton more feats to play with.
I believe you. And I think it's ludicrous that a guy with a rapier deals more damage than a 2 handed weapon fighter.
If I did not care about that, say, that guy has higher AC, Reflex Save, Initiative an better skills... the way I see it, the fighter don't stand a change against that guy, so, no, it's not balanced.
I believe you. And I think it's ludicrous that a guy with a rapier deals more damage than a 2 handed weapon fighter.
If I did not care about that, say, that guy has higher AC, Reflex Save, Initiative an better skills... the way I see it, the fighter don't stand a change against that guy, so, no, it's not balanced.
So you are saying that it is unrealistic, in effect?
Now let me ask you, does running someone through the heart with a rapier make them less dead than belting them over the head with a greatsword?
No. They are dead either way, it just takes more skill to do it with the rapier (as represented by needing to take more feats).
As has been said, dealing damage is a combination of strength (hitting hard) and precision (hitting in the right place). Strength and power attack are represented in the system, but adroitness and precision are not represented, save in sneak attack (which at level 20 would be dishing out the same kind of damage as the rapier in the example above, funnily enough).
In the numbers I crunched, the damage is pretty close to one another - we're talking, at level 20, 1d6+35 (at +26 to hit) vs 2d6+34 (at +28 to hit) at the expenditure of a lot more feats to achieve on the behalf of the duelist.
At level 15, the duelist hits at +18 for 1d6+27 and the greatsword wielder at +21 for 2d6+25; at level 10 the duelist is at +14 for 1d6+20 and the greatsword +16 for 2d6+20; at level 5 you compare +9 for 1d6+13 against +9 for 2d6+15. All the way along the greatsword has an edge in damage, if not a huge one, and a large part of the damage in the duelist's attack is precision damage - not effective against creatures immune to critical hits. When I get a chance I'll upload my working and you can see for yourself how I came to that. I haven't included magic items into the mix because the bonuses from them to damage and hitting will be about the same for both builds. In all of these, the dex mod only accounts for between 4 and 6 points of damage on the part of the finesse fighter.
Now comparing their other stats, the greatsword wielder also had 25% more hit points, roughly equal AC (unless the duelist nerfed his attack to nothing and used Combat Expertise), worse reflex saves but better fort saves, slightly worse initiative (by 2), overall, pretty similar. In fact, far from not having a chance, the greatsword wielder probably has it better, but by a narrower margin than before is all.
First of all, REALLY!!!
If the arguement is "no your wrong", then the fight has ended and the other guy when home.
Two, play it your way, if you think it works, play it. If you don't, don't. Their are so many other things to fight about. Like if Monks suck... and the greatest of Fishyness.
1) Will the modifiers added from strength and dexterity be greater than the modifer of just strength?
If you compare two point-buy characters, no.
If you compare two rolled-stats characters, or a player race character and a monstrous one of appropriate CR, yes.Especially since natural weapons are finesseable.
I had a post written out. With numbers. Based off of my previous post full of numbers based off of the wonky stats given and used in it.
Then the forum ate it.
In the end, though, what it came down to was this: How important is AC by level 15, really? It seems like much the better option to get some static miss chance/% thrown on you than to worry overmuch about AC. You can work your AC all you want, but Fighter dudemanguy with his +5 greatsword is almost certainly going to hit you at least once, maybe even twice with little problem.
I would also argue that Mr. Fishy is a good topic to argue over.
Funny thing. You keep crunhing damage numbers and all that, and I still don't see it. All you guys are doing is putting Damage there and saying that the Dex guy with a ONE handed weapon deals a "little bit" less damage than the TWO-handed fighter... hum, ok.
The funny thing is that you are not saying that the Dex has way more AC, Initiative king, LOTS of good skills and a pretty great Reflex save while the strength guy has.... wow, damage.
Yes, all those dexterity skills that fighters have...?
Hmm. Do I want to spend three feats to replace my high strength with medium dexterity, or do I want to just take Improved Initiative which would give me better initiative, then Lightning Reflexes which would give me better reflexes, and then use my third feat to do whatever the hell I want?
Decision, decisions.
Here's the catch - fighters are already going to have middle line if not better dexterity. Gaining dex to damage replacing strength wouldn't give them a gigantic boost in AC, reflex, and initiative, because theirs is already good.
Funny thing. You keep crunhing damage numbers and all that, and I still don't see it. All you guys are doing is putting Damage there and saying that the Dex guy with a ONE handed weapon deals a "little bit" less damage than the TWO-handed fighter... hum, ok.
The funny thing is that you are not saying that the Dex has way more AC, Initiative king, LOTS of good skills and a pretty great Reflex save while the strength guy has.... wow, damage.Yes, all those dexterity skills that fighters have...?
Hmm. Do I want to spend three feats to replace my high strength with medium dexterity, or do I want to just take Improved Initiative which would give me better initiative, then Lightning Reflexes which would give me better reflexes, and then use my third feat to do whatever the hell I want?
Decision, decisions.
Here's the catch - fighters are already going to have middle line if not better dexterity. Gaining dex to damage replacing strength wouldn't give them a gigantic boost in AC, reflex, and initiative, because theirs is already good.
That was a conclusion I was coming to before my post got eaten. You can squeeze a +7 max dex out of mithral full plate if you wanted to, thanks to Armor Training. That's rather scary.
That was a conclusion I was coming to before my post got eaten. You can squeeze a +7 max dex out of mithral full plate if you wanted to, thanks to Armor Training. That's rather scary.Funny thing. You keep crunhing damage numbers and all that, and I still don't see it. All you guys are doing is putting Damage there and saying that the Dex guy with a ONE handed weapon deals a "little bit" less damage than the TWO-handed fighter... hum, ok.
The funny thing is that you are not saying that the Dex has way more AC, Initiative king, LOTS of good skills and a pretty great Reflex save while the strength guy has.... wow, damage.Yes, all those dexterity skills that fighters have...?
Hmm. Do I want to spend three feats to replace my high strength with medium dexterity, or do I want to just take Improved Initiative which would give me better initiative, then Lightning Reflexes which would give me better reflexes, and then use my third feat to do whatever the hell I want?
Decision, decisions.
Here's the catch - fighters are already going to have middle line if not better dexterity. Gaining dex to damage replacing strength wouldn't give them a gigantic boost in AC, reflex, and initiative, because theirs is already good.
I think the reason people are afraid that strength will suddenly become a dump stat and oh god dexterity everywhere is because they assume dexterity is currently a dump stat for fighters.
It's not. It's not at ALL.
If a fighter suddenly chooses to dump his feats into dexterity damage/weapon finesse/etc, etc, he's not gaining a billion initiative and reflex saves, because he's not seeing a suddenly increase of dexterity. Fighters should already have pretty good dexterity.
Seems like people are having a little bit of trouble understanding this. I'm NOT against dex to damage. I think it need restrictions, sigle weapon, LIGHT weapon (not finessable weapons), half-dex only, no 1-1/2 ever. Something along those lines, not all options, but some of them should be put there.
What I AM against is adding Str and Dex to damage. You keep saying its easier to increase only one ability score, I don't see it. It's cheaper in point buy to buy two decent ones than one at maximun, the magical item cap doubles, though the money may be a problem, there comes a time when it really isn't, or you have several other ways to go around that.
I do believe it's a valid option, putting Dex to damage, but it is a valid option just as much as putting any other ability score.
I can't believe I'm going here. How important is AC at level 15? Eh. But how important is it at level 1? Pretty. It's been mentioned that a lvl 20 character with all the nifty magic can solo a red dragon. That leads me to believe that level 20 characters are broken. At lvl 20 you can do whatever you want. What is the difference between 100 points and 90 points at level 20? Not a lot. Especially when you have a party of adventurers dealing roughly the same damage. The red dragon could have 800 hitpoints, and as long as the whole party went first, the dragon goes down in a round. How about those level 3 characters staring down the barrel of an orc raiding party, or a pair of trolls, or a few clay golems? 2 points of damage total per hit is nothing at level 20. But it could be the difference between life and TPK at level 3. I guess that's where it matters. Clerics have a spell that will KILL you if you have fewer than 200 hit points. KILL YOU. Dead. No save. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 gp. Dead. They have the ability to deal anywhere from 200 to 250 points of damage as a standard action. 1. In context, with a 20d6 fireball dealing a maximum of 120 damage, I don't think getting a +10 to boost your damage capacity to 105 is a bad thing at level 20. I change my vote in favor of dex to damage.
*stunned silence*
Well ... son of a ...! Welcome aboard, mate!!!
*cheers w/a happy dance*
:-D
Seems like people are having a little bit of trouble understanding this. I'm NOT against dex to damage. I think it need restrictions, sigle weapon, LIGHT weapon (not finessable weapons), half-dex only, no 1-1/2 ever. Something along those lines, not all options, but some of them should be put there.
What I AM against is adding Str and Dex to damage. You keep saying its easier to increase only one ability score, I don't see it. It's cheaper in point buy to buy two decent ones than one at maximun, the magical item cap doubles, though the money may be a problem, there comes a time when it really isn't, or you have several other ways to go around that.
I do believe it's a valid option, putting Dex to damage, but it is a valid option just as much as putting any other ability score.
Hmm ... I see the issue and complaint here - the "stacking" *could* optimize an otherwise mediocre build, yes?
Well ... this isn't necessarily the case. Not in all options really, and I *think* we've got 3 more or less.
1) Full dex REPLACEMENT for str. Disadvantage here is that the weak people WILL fully dump str and str WILL become irrelevant. The *only* thought I have here is that *maybe* something like not allowing the 1.5x str for 2-handing weapons using Dex bonus be allowed. This, then, will ALWAYS favor a pure str-build for damage over the dex guy (honestly, what does 2-handing have to to with accuracy??). Note that this version is unrestricted target accessibility, just like str's default.
Potential Abuse: dumping strength whole-sale is not a very keen idea. It will eliminate Power Attack, though, as a source of damage. However, a dex-based PA feat *could* as easily be introduced, or Deadly Aim can be modified to apply to it.
2) Dex ADDITION to str for damage. This has been posited as "precision" damage, and thus will not str multiply, and is restricted in which targets it *can* apply against or not (ie: there are a few it'll come against that it WILL NOT BE APPLICABLE). This also does NOT favor *weak* characters, as the Str penalty WILL be calculated into the damage total. This damage can be multiplied (as normal sources for crits being a +flat # vs. added damage die), and will help out in damage overall, but is still not a *replacement* for strength in the least. In this case, str still matters as you need the 13+ str minimum for PA, or you forego damage boons. Like the previous one, however, a feat *could* be introduced to allow a PA-like effect for dex over str, or the change can be made to Deadly Aim. Overall, though, this is not geared toward replacement or negation of strength, but enabling dex to take a more prominent combat role (vs. the previous options all out replacement). This also is restricted to light/finesse weapons only.
Potential Abuse: there *may* be a breaking point of adding str and dex together with either severe stat dumping, or outrageous ability scores handed out. This will *only* be true IF both str AND dex are heavily invested in - which is just unlikely to take place unless crazy-stats were rolled/handed out/made possible in the first place. Another inherent balance here is that, for DPR, the str is the ONLY thing that gets a str multiplier. Factoring in PA and 2-handing, and that disparity grows.
3) 1/2 Dex ADDITION to str for damage. This, likewise, has been prepositioned with limited function to finesse only/light weapons only and adds even less damage than option #2. It still does take into account str mods for damage, and can, likewise, run into the same bump of option 2 of high mods on both leading to unusually high damage. The boon, however, is much more modest, and likely a better fit for anyone that wants to cry "foul!!!"
Potential Abuse: This carries the exact same baggage as option #2. Though, with less dex gain to be had in the first place, there is less likely to be a problem with mutliple high stats in both str and dex.
Points in common to all (Positive): This enables the dex-based guy to hang and bang in combat w/out feeling relatively useless and/or having to drop BAB for SA damage and classing OUT of a full BAB class to a 3/4 JUST to get "precision damage" to be *combat effective*. It also doesn't force constant feints JUST to use that same damage from a lesser combat class, or require flanking - it just works like other forms of additional damage boons (not additional damage die sources). This is also balanaced by the feat buy-in requirements. Any character fully devoting to this is needed the following feats to FULLY replace the role of Str in combat (including maneuvers):
Wpn Finesse
Improved Version of WF (whatever you call it)
Agile Maneuvers
Power Attack/Deadly Aim (modified for melee use)
Until all 4 of these things have been taken, str WILL overule or at least affect dex in combat calculations. This is 4 feats (3 likely since *most* combat heavies take PA anyway) that other types can spend on other areas to become more effective themselves. It is NOT a *lightly considered* investment when, outside of class bonuses, characters *only* get 10 feats in their careers. Dex fighters are dedicating 40% of their feat selection just to make their concept viable ... it must count for something. The only class this *may* not be true for is Fighters as they get 20 feats overall factoring in class bonuses ... but that IS the whole point of them in the first place anyway. Still, even with greater feats, 3 are being dedicated to REPLACING the role of Str in combat ... it's as heavy an investment as TWF, or even the Shield Progressions (w/out all the frills tacked on).
Oh ... non-full BAB types will need to invest 1 more feat beyond the rest, too, to full replace str: Defensive Combat Training (or whatever it's called) to make up for their lower CMD values comparatively speaking.
So ... I *think* that's the "menu" so far, no? Myself? I'm for option #2.
I, however, also have other rules in mind for making things work better for other styles of combat as well, though, so I have NO problem and different #'s in mind for the higher progressions. IE: the 2-handers WILL be damage kings (feats modding damage to x2 and x2.5 respectively at the highest tier, plus another that figures as a +2 to str for damage dealing purposes [+1 dmg that gets multiplied as str bonus], and other things like this for 2-handers, while sword and board will be nerfed the HELL out, and single weapon WILL become a validated style with entirely new feats to support that choice/style overall).
1) Will the modifiers added from strength and dexterity be greater than the modifer of just strength?If you compare two point-buy characters, no.
If you compare two rolled-stats characters, or a player race character and a monstrous one of appropriate CR, yes.Especially since natural weapons are finesseable.
Will rolled stats there is ALWAYS the chance of unbalanced attributes at the end of the day. If players are that guaranteed to get awesome stats from rolling, don't let them play with loaded dice ...
As for monsters, how many have an awesome dexterity that can break this? Not that many, and those that do are usually very small so they have large penalties to strength that counter at least partially the bonus damage.
Edit: OK, here's the numbers I crunched for a duelist vs a two handed fighter for these feats. Bear in mind, this is with full dexterity modifier being ADDED to strength damage. The duelist is the 'most likely' of all types of builds to be 'broken' this way because of their precise strike class feature, so I figured it would be a good benchmark. I'm sure other's could min-max these characters better, but I've gone for what I know. As I stated earlier, I've just worked the stats using base weapons and no equipment because whatever one can get, the other can get, except for armour - the duelist is limited to light armour, the greatsword fighter isn't. This balances pretty well with the duelist's greater advantage to AC because of dexterity and other factors.
With regard to stat boosting items, it's only going to make a real difference at high level, because of the plateau at +6. This would give the duelist +2 damage over that which the greatsword fighter could get out of such items. Given the discrepancy in favour of the greatsword fighter before this, and the lower hit chance of the duelist as well, the difference is small, and the greatsword fighter has a large advantage in hit points.
Will rolled stats there is ALWAYS the chance of unbalanced attributes at the end of the day.
And the more different attributes are used in one ability, the more unbalanced things can get.
As for monsters, most outsiders and monstrous humanoids (those that tend to have class levels and non-standard array of stats in addition) have the high dexterity and strength scores needed to break this. Devils in particular.
My remark was directed at the "adding dex to strength" idea.
In the DEX replacing STR option, what about having the feat that gives DEX to damage require an extra STR benchmark above what Power Attack requires in order to get 1.5x DEX when using a two-handed weapon (I.E. elven curveblade)? Not meeting the benchmark means only 1x DEX to damage, one- or two-handed.
It'll suck up more resources during character creation using point buy or a better rolled stat that might have gone elsewhere otherwise when rolling stats. If they don't, it'll be a while before they can get the extra .5 through STR boosting items.
Would that help assuage the fears of those that fear everybody evar suddenly dumping STR and making it a dump stat for everybody forever?